[Intro Music] 00:01:29.98\00:01:40.03 [Intro Music] 00:01:40.03\00:01:49.07 JB: This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. 00:01:49.10\00:01:51.21 Thanks for joining me. In Matthew, chapter 13, you read a 00:01:51.24\00:01:54.81 fascinating parable, the parable of the wheat and the tares. 00:01:54.84\00:01:58.21 A man with a field of wheat discovers that somebody has sewn 00:01:58.25\00:02:02.42 weeds among the wheat and has caused great damage and 00:02:02.45\00:02:06.02 potential catastrophic loss. And when his servants came to him 00:02:06.05\00:02:09.72 and spoke to him about the weeds in the field, he answered by 00:02:09.76\00:02:12.86 saying, "An enemy has done this." That's Matthew 13 and 00:02:12.89\00:02:17.47 verse 28. When God created the world, it was a perfect world. 00:02:17.50\00:02:22.07 There was no sin, no sadness, no suffering, no loss. But an enemy 00:02:22.10\00:02:26.51 came. And one of the consequences of the work of the 00:02:26.54\00:02:29.64 enemy is grief. We were created to be happy forever. Grief is a 00:02:29.68\00:02:35.78 foreign emotion to us, at least with regard to the way God 00:02:35.82\00:02:39.15 created us. Yet we grieve; there is sorrow; there is 00:02:39.19\00:02:42.36 loss. "An enemy has done this." How do you deal with grief? 00:02:42.39\00:02:47.83 Unfortunately, it's one of life's inevitabilities. My guest 00:02:47.86\00:02:52.03 today is Pastor Mike Tucker, the speaker and the director from 00:02:52.07\00:02:55.44 Faith for Today, a media ministry. He's the host of 00:02:55.47\00:02:58.64 Lifestyle Magazine, and for many years has conducted marriage 00:02:58.67\00:03:01.88 seminars called "Mad About Marriage." Pastor Mike Tucker, 00:03:01.91\00:03:05.41 thanks for joining me today. MT: It is a pleasure to be here. 00:03:05.45\00:03:07.58 Thank you, John. JB: Now, unfortunately, when it 00:03:07.62\00:03:09.45 comes to grief, you have firsthand experience. 00:03:09.48\00:03:11.59 Recent experience. The sort of experience none of us want 00:03:11.62\00:03:14.72 to go through. Explain briefly. 00:03:14.76\00:03:16.02 MT: Less than six months ago, 00:03:16.06\00:03:17.39 my wife of over 40 years, Gayle Tucker, passed away 00:03:17.43\00:03:20.53 from pancreatic cancer. It was a brief illness; first symptoms 00:03:20.56\00:03:24.27 March 3, put her in the hospital March 6, diagnosed March 00:03:24.30\00:03:27.84 16, and died April 10. So it's been a painful journey for me 00:03:27.87\00:03:32.87 because she was my best friend, my partner in ministry. 00:03:32.91\00:03:35.61 We did everything together, from pastoral ministry 00:03:35.64\00:03:38.38 to chaplaincy to television ministry, seminars, preaching, 00:03:38.41\00:03:42.82 you name it. We did it all together. And so to lose her 00:03:42.85\00:03:46.55 has been just the most devastating experience 00:03:46.59\00:03:48.66 of my life. JB: And this simply came from out of the blue? 00:03:48.69\00:03:50.63 MT: Oh, yeah. JB: She was a picture 00:03:50.66\00:03:51.96 of perfect health. MT: Perfect health. 00:03:51.99\00:03:53.33 JB: No health issues. MT: No, you know, we pastored 00:03:53.36\00:03:54.83 one church for 17 years. She did not miss one day from work 00:03:54.86\00:03:57.83 because of health. Not one. JB: So this wasn't something you 00:03:57.87\00:03:59.93 could prepare for. MT: No. 00:04:00.04\00:04:01.30 JB: Emotionally or any other way 00:04:01.34\00:04:02.67 MT: No. She played volleyball every week, and had for over 20 00:04:02.70\00:04:05.94 years with the same group of women. Diving on the floor, 00:04:05.97\00:04:08.21 getting volleyballs, you know the "digs," they call them, 00:04:08.24\00:04:10.91 you know. All sorts of things. Vibrant health, happy, 00:04:10.95\00:04:15.08 energetic, until boom, all of a sudden these symptoms hit. 00:04:15.12\00:04:18.65 JB: And along with that, with the loss, comes grief. 00:04:18.69\00:04:22.32 Define grief for me. MT: Grief is an emotional, 00:04:22.36\00:04:25.49 psychological, and physical reaction to any loss 00:04:25.53\00:04:28.46 that is significant. JB: And anybody can grieve. 00:04:28.50\00:04:31.03 I'm thinking the loss of a pet. MT: Yes. 00:04:31.07\00:04:33.34 JB: And your 4-year-old little girl... 00:04:33.37\00:04:35.44 MT: Yes. JB: ...is going to have 00:04:35.47\00:04:37.24 the hardest time adjusting to life without Fluffy. 00:04:37.27\00:04:38.57 MT: I lost a Great Dane, who I'd had for 11 and half 00:04:38.61\00:04:41.74 years, and I had to put her down because of arthritis in her back 00:04:41.78\00:04:44.61 legs. And I loved that dog, and I, I cried over that dog. 00:04:44.65\00:04:48.42 I grieved heavily for her. JB: So grief is something 00:04:48.45\00:04:51.55 that's going to come. MT: Yes. 00:04:51.59\00:04:52.82 JB: And it's going to be difficult, isn't it? 00:04:52.85\00:04:54.56 MT: Yes, it is. JB: I think it's important 00:04:54.59\00:04:55.92 people realize this. There's no shortcut around this, is there? 00:04:55.96\00:04:58.26 MT: No. You cannot ignore it. You can't outwork it. 00:04:58.29\00:05:01.50 You can't out-medicate it. The longer you put it off, 00:05:01.53\00:05:04.17 the longer it will take and the more 00:05:04.20\00:05:05.53 difficult it will be. The best thing is to grieve early; grieve 00:05:05.57\00:05:09.64 intensely early, because that's going to have the best result. 00:05:09.67\00:05:13.17 It may not shorten it, but it will lessen the overall symptoms 00:05:13.21\00:05:16.48 and the severity of the process. JB: You had no time to prepare 00:05:16.51\00:05:19.51 yourself for Gayle's death. MT: Unh-uh. 00:05:19.55\00:05:21.28 JB: She was the picture of perfect health. 00:05:21.32\00:05:22.52 MT: Yeah. JB: Your closest friend. 00:05:22.55\00:05:24.75 And from out of nowhere came a devastating diagnosis. 00:05:24.79\00:05:27.06 Now, what if this had been a lesser illness, but 00:05:27.09\00:05:32.29 with the potential to become serious? One of 00:05:32.33\00:05:34.93 these illnesses where, my goodness, if 00:05:34.93\00:05:36.83 things don't go well we could lose her in five years. 00:05:36.87\00:05:39.17 MT: Um-hmm. JB: Can you prepare 00:05:39.20\00:05:42.10 ahead of time for grief? Is there anything you can do? 00:05:42.14\00:05:44.94 Is there anything you should do, or do you 00:05:44.97\00:05:46.71 just say, "There's no way that's going to happen, and 00:05:46.74\00:05:49.54 should it happen, we cross that bridge when we get there"? 00:05:49.58\00:05:51.55 MT: I think what everyone does at that point is, you anticipate 00:05:51.58\00:05:54.75 the best and you work for the best. When it becomes worse, and 00:05:54.78\00:05:58.45 then you begin to realize that you might lose them, is really 00:05:58.49\00:06:00.76 the time, I think, for most people to engage in anticipatory 00:06:00.79\00:06:04.16 grief. Alright, I need to prepare myself in some 00:06:04.19\00:06:06.93 way for this loss. JB: How does a person prepare 00:06:06.96\00:06:08.90 themselves for a loss and the grief that comes with it? 00:06:08.93\00:06:11.57 MT: I think the first thing is to make sure that your 00:06:11.60\00:06:13.40 relationship with that individual is clear: 00:06:13.44\00:06:16.27 that you're happy together, that there's nothing between you, 00:06:16.30\00:06:18.91 that anything you need to say "I'm sorry" for is done. 00:06:18.94\00:06:22.38 That's the first step: to make sure that we're good. And then 00:06:22.41\00:06:25.01 I think you start by, by reviewing the stories. 00:06:25.05\00:06:28.18 Life review is what we encourage people to do who are 00:06:28.22\00:06:30.99 facing their own death. So how has your life been significant? 00:06:31.02\00:06:34.62 What are the stories? And then as you imagine what it's going 00:06:34.66\00:06:37.96 to be like without that person in your life, allowing yourself 00:06:37.99\00:06:40.40 to feel those emotions, and to grieve in anticipation of the 00:06:40.43\00:06:43.53 loss, will also help you. But just putting the life in 00:06:43.57\00:06:46.87 perspective and understanding, all right, there's a value to 00:06:46.90\00:06:49.37 this life. And although we're going to lose this individual, 00:06:49.40\00:06:52.91 there's been a value to their being here. There's been a 00:06:52.94\00:06:54.88 purpose for this life. And that's helpful. 00:06:54.91\00:06:56.85 JB: Now, grief came to you, and you have some inbuilt 00:06:56.88\00:07:00.42 preparation, that is, you're a pastor. 00:07:00.45\00:07:02.02 You've been a counselor. MT: Um-hmm. 00:07:02.05\00:07:04.99 JB: You've worked in hospice, and you've shepherded people 00:07:05.02\00:07:08.66 through these processes many, many, many times. 00:07:08.69\00:07:11.29 MT: Um-hmm. JB: Did that help? 00:07:11.33\00:07:13.16 MT: It helps in one sense. First of all, I know what to 00:07:13.19\00:07:16.46 expect. It helps because I know that I'm not crazy. That's the 00:07:16.50\00:07:20.24 most frequently asked question of people in severe grief. 00:07:20.27\00:07:22.87 They'll share their symptoms with me: "Have I just lost my 00:07:22.90\00:07:25.27 mind? Am I crazy?" However, knowing those things does not 00:07:25.31\00:07:28.81 lessen my pain. It will not shorten the time. It may help me 00:07:28.84\00:07:32.78 understand better how to deal and how to react to things 00:07:32.81\00:07:35.65 without asking for advice, because I know how to give the 00:07:35.68\00:07:38.05 advice. But it's not going to shorten the intensity of the 00:07:38.09\00:07:42.19 pain. It's not going to shorten the time. So it doesn't 00:07:42.22\00:07:44.66 help in that respect. JB: So a husband or a wife 00:07:44.69\00:07:49.90 is going to lose a spouse. MT: Um-hmm. 00:07:49.93\00:07:51.87 JB: Grief is going to come. MT: Yeah. 00:07:51.90\00:07:53.77 JB: What's guaranteed to come with that grief? 00:07:53.80\00:07:56.94 MT: Well, first of all, there's going to be a sense 00:07:56.97\00:07:59.27 of emptiness, loneliness. There may be, especially early on, 00:07:59.31\00:08:03.68 and even continuing for months, the sense that it's not real. 00:08:03.71\00:08:07.42 Like you've dreamed this. Like you want to pinch yourself. 00:08:07.45\00:08:09.72 I still do that; it's been six months. So that's normal. 00:08:09.75\00:08:12.45 Also, there's frequent crying. You may feel like 00:08:12.49\00:08:15.39 there's a weight pressing down on your chest, difficult to 00:08:15.42\00:08:18.09 breathe deeply. You'll find yourself sighing more 00:08:18.13\00:08:20.26 frequently. You'll find a sense of, of sorrow and sadness, uh, a 00:08:20.30\00:08:26.53 lost-ness. A loss of enjoying activities you used to enjoy 00:08:26.57\00:08:30.74 before, you suddenly now take no pleasure in. Short-term memory 00:08:30.77\00:08:34.48 is gone. Um, abilities to concentrate are gone. And just 00:08:34.51\00:08:40.15 an overall feeling of depression and pain and sorrow that is 00:08:40.18\00:08:43.75 intense. It's, it's a wonderful experience. 00:08:43.79\00:08:47.16 JB: I'm sure. MT: [laughs] 00:08:47.19\00:08:48.09 JB: Now, that's going to last how long? 00:08:48.12\00:08:52.59 MT: It varies from person to person. One to two years 00:08:52.63\00:08:55.16 is the average for a significant loss. Uh, some people 00:08:55.20\00:08:58.27 will experience that up to three to five years, depend--and not 00:08:58.30\00:09:02.74 really be pathological with that. But you usually look for 00:09:02.77\00:09:05.84 recovery, and that means the ability to think clearly again. 00:09:05.87\00:09:09.18 Maybe it's not the first and last thing on your mind 00:09:09.21\00:09:11.05 every day. You'll still cry and feel sad and feel the sorrow, 00:09:11.08\00:09:14.82 but be able to function more normally after one to two years. 00:09:14.85\00:09:18.42 And then that's when we talk about recovery. 00:09:18.45\00:09:20.69 JB: There's no question when it comes to grief, this is the work 00:09:20.72\00:09:23.43 of the enemy. "An enemy hath done this." But we'll come 00:09:23.46\00:09:25.59 to the Bible, and we'll discover that there is a way through. 00:09:25.63\00:09:27.93 There is a way through grief, and we can thank God for that. 00:09:27.96\00:09:31.03 I'll be back with more with Pastor Mike Tucker 00:09:31.07\00:09:32.93 in just a moment. 00:09:32.97\00:09:35.44 [Soft Piano Music] 00:09:35.47\00:09:41.64 Grief. Sadly, it's an inevitable part of life. 00:09:41.68\00:09:45.28 There's no escaping loss in this world and the pain that 00:09:45.31\00:09:47.85 comes along with it. Grief can be disabling, intense 00:09:47.88\00:09:50.92 and debilitating. So make sure you get your free copy 00:09:50.95\00:09:54.32 of "Coping with Grief" by John Bradshaw. There is a way through 00:09:54.36\00:09:57.89 life's toughest times. Learn how you or someone you care about 00:09:57.93\00:10:01.03 can cope with grief. Discover principles that will show you 00:10:01.06\00:10:04.57 how to return to a life full of joy and hope. Please, don't let 00:10:04.60\00:10:08.90 grief be any more difficult than it has to be. When the burdens 00:10:08.94\00:10:12.14 of loss seem to be more than you can handle, there is a way you 00:10:12.17\00:10:15.04 can cope with grief. To receive the book "Coping with Grief," 00:10:15.08\00:10:18.35 call right now 1-800-253-3000. There's absolutely no cost or 00:10:18.38\00:10:23.45 obligation, and our lines are open 24 hours a day. If the 00:10:23.49\00:10:26.92 lines are busy, please try again. We'll send "Coping with 00:10:26.96\00:10:30.29 Grief" free to any address in North America. Call 00:10:30.33\00:10:33.66 1-800-253-3000. Or you can write to us at It Is Written, 00:10:33.70\00:10:38.17 P O Box 6, Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37401. To download 00:10:38.20\00:10:43.77 a free electronic version of "Coping with Grief," please 00:10:43.81\00:10:46.78 visit us online at ItIsWritten.com. To get 00:10:46.81\00:10:50.28 your free copy of "Coping with Grief," call right now, 00:10:50.31\00:10:53.48 1-800-253-3000. 00:10:53.52\00:10:56.05 [Music] 00:10:56.08\00:10:57.12 JB: Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. 00:10:57.15\00:10:58.92 I'm John Bradshaw. With me my good friend 00:10:58.95\00:11:01.09 Mike Tucker, who is a pastor, and an author, and a television 00:11:01.12\00:11:03.93 presenter, a counselor, a chaplain. Mike, you've kind of 00:11:03.96\00:11:07.66 done it all. MT: Yeah. 00:11:07.73\00:11:08.93 JB: We're talking today about grief. You have, unfortunately, 00:11:08.96\00:11:13.64 a close-up, first-hand experience with grief. 00:11:13.67\00:11:15.70 And it's something everybody can relate to, or will relate to. 00:11:15.74\00:11:20.88 We hear a lot about the stages of grief. Walk us through those 00:11:20.91\00:11:24.15 and tell us how they apply to a grieving situation. 00:11:24.18\00:11:26.48 MT: The stages of grief, it depends who you're 00:11:26.51\00:11:28.65 reading. Some people say there are four, another five, 00:11:28.68\00:11:30.95 another seven, and another twelve. And all of them tend to 00:11:30.99\00:11:34.29 think that you go through those stages in order. Well, those may 00:11:34.32\00:11:38.19 be helpful for a lot of people; I've never found them to be 00:11:38.23\00:11:40.43 helpful. So it depends on who you read. But if it's helpful 00:11:40.46\00:11:43.00 for you, use it. For me, instead, I usually think 00:11:43.03\00:11:46.27 about goals of grief. JB: The goals of grief? 00:11:46.30\00:11:48.64 MT: Goals of grief. Grief has a purpose. 00:11:48.67\00:11:51.04 And as you accomplish goals, you walk your way through it. 00:11:51.07\00:11:54.04 And then there are four activities of grief, 00:11:54.08\00:11:55.51 which I'll mention later. But the first goal of grief is to 00:11:55.54\00:11:58.31 believe that it actually happened. And again, you may, 00:11:58.35\00:12:01.48 you may deal with this and have to revisit that all the way 00:12:01.52\00:12:04.35 through the journey. Because there are times when I wake up, 00:12:04.39\00:12:06.39 after six months, and I still have to remind myself 00:12:06.42\00:12:08.56 that this is real. JB: A friend of mine was a 00:12:08.59\00:12:10.26 chaplain for a police department MT: Yeah. 00:12:10.29\00:12:12.73 JB: He'd tell me about having to go and break the news to 00:12:12.76\00:12:15.76 people: your husband has been killed in a terrible accident. 00:12:15.80\00:12:18.17 He told me it was really interesting that you go and 00:12:18.20\00:12:20.70 tell people this, and they just flat out refuse to believe it. 00:12:20.74\00:12:23.34 MT: Right. JB: He spoke about one lady. 00:12:23.37\00:12:24.61 He had to put her in the car, drive her to the accident scene, 00:12:24.64\00:12:26.91 and say, "This is where it happened." 00:12:26.94\00:12:28.11 Still wouldn't believe it. MT: Yeah. 00:12:28.14\00:12:30.21 JB: So, so that's, that's a thing huh? 00:12:30.25\00:12:32.45 MT: You cannot, you cannot grieve a loss 00:12:32.48\00:12:34.28 you do not accept. And so the process is 00:12:34.32\00:12:36.48 stopped until you accept it. Yes, I believe this has really 00:12:36.52\00:12:39.45 happened. The truth is that if you live in denial long enough, 00:12:39.49\00:12:42.82 eventually you can come to the point where you almost never get 00:12:42.86\00:12:45.09 back, or it's very difficult to get back. And so the sooner you 00:12:45.13\00:12:48.73 accept the reality of it, the better for you. So that is the 00:12:48.76\00:12:52.23 first goal, is to believe that this really happened. And again, 00:12:52.27\00:12:55.47 the fact that you, you have times where you doubt it again, 00:12:55.50\00:12:58.61 but you bring your mind--that doesn't mean that you haven't 00:12:58.64\00:13:00.58 accomplished this goal. You just have to re-accomplish it. So 00:13:00.61\00:13:03.71 that's the first goal, is to believe that it really happened. 00:13:03.75\00:13:06.18 The second goal is to be willing to experience the pain. Uh, some 00:13:06.21\00:13:10.12 people will try to outwork it, or ignore it, or stuff it. Some 00:13:10.15\00:13:15.02 people will out-medicate it, or out-drink it. Eventually the 00:13:15.06\00:13:18.69 pain's going to come and get you. If you deal with it early, 00:13:18.73\00:13:22.60 it's better than if you deal with it late, because when it 00:13:22.63\00:13:24.97 comes back late, it will come back in, in spades. So it'll be 00:13:25.00\00:13:27.94 even harder and more difficult. JB: But isn't it right to try to 00:13:27.97\00:13:32.27 get rid of the pain? I mean, that's what we do. No one goes 00:13:32.31\00:13:34.98 into surgery without anesthetic, and the first thing you do if 00:13:35.01\00:13:37.48 you have a headache is take a Tylenol or some such thing. So 00:13:37.51\00:13:40.55 wouldn't that just be a natural thing to say, I've lost 00:13:40.58\00:13:44.39 a pet, a grandparent... MT: Yeah, yeah. 00:13:44.42\00:13:46.15 JB: ...a spouse, a child. It hurts like crazy. I want 00:13:46.19\00:13:49.02 to get rid of the pain. MT: Yeah. Well, the truth is, 00:13:49.06\00:13:51.29 you can, you can help with that. There are medicines that can 00:13:51.33\00:13:54.10 help, and some people will use those, and that's fine. I don't 00:13:54.10\00:13:56.40 think there's a shame in that as long as they're 00:13:56.43\00:13:57.83 used as, as prescribed. JB: Well, now, I'm not 00:13:57.87\00:14:00.60 specifically referring to medicines. 00:14:00.64\00:14:02.00 MT: Yeah. JB: But wouldn't you want 00:14:02.04\00:14:03.00 to find a way out of this pain? You're saying... 00:14:03.04\00:14:04.37 MT: Absol...everyone wants to find a way out. 00:14:04.41\00:14:06.34 JB: What you're saying is, really, you ought to kind of 00:14:06.37\00:14:07.48 confront this and live with it. MT: Yes, That's right. 00:14:07.51\00:14:09.04 JB: There's no way around it. MT: The only way through grief 00:14:09.08\00:14:11.38 is, indeed, through it. You can't, you can't outrun it. 00:14:11.41\00:14:16.32 And so, my personality is such that I don't want to be 00:14:16.35\00:14:19.85 the victim. And so since I know I have to go through it, 00:14:19.89\00:14:23.02 I initiate contact with it. That means that I will force myself 00:14:23.06\00:14:26.76 at times to think about memories of her that are painful, 00:14:26.80\00:14:29.46 and those that are joyous. I, I got back in the pulpit 00:14:29.50\00:14:33.03 for the first time, sooner than, perhaps, some would have 00:14:33.07\00:14:35.90 thought was advisable. But I knew I needed to do this. 00:14:35.94\00:14:38.84 JB: What was it like? MT: It was very painful. 00:14:38.87\00:14:40.68 I had to steel my mind and be, be prepared for the possibility. 00:14:40.71\00:14:45.61 I went over the danger points in my sermon where I might lose it. 00:14:45.65\00:14:50.29 and I JB: You prepared ahead of time. 00:14:50.32\00:14:51.92 MT: Yes, I did. I prepared for that. 00:14:51.95\00:14:53.92 And so I, and I bathed myself in prayer, and then just 00:14:53.96\00:14:58.83 stood up and delivered. And I got through it. 00:14:58.86\00:15:00.96 JB: Now, you and Gayle, for years, have hosted 00:15:01.00\00:15:03.83 television programs. MT: Yeah, yeah. 00:15:03.87\00:15:06.47 JB: Excellent program. And you've gone back into the studio 00:15:06.50\00:15:10.14 without her... MT: Yes. 00:15:10.17\00:15:11.51 JB: ...to film those programs now, with a team, 00:15:11.54\00:15:14.61 but on your own. MT: Yes. 00:15:14.64\00:15:16.14 JB: What was that like? MT: Extremely painful. 00:15:16.18\00:15:18.98 Extremely painful, because she should have been there. 00:15:19.01\00:15:20.88 JB: Yeah. MT: We worked together as a team 00:15:20.92\00:15:22.62 so long that we would anticipate what the other was going to say, 00:15:22.65\00:15:25.25 and when they were going to say it, and who was going to ask 00:15:25.29\00:15:27.02 the question next. We didn't have to give each other signs. 00:15:27.06\00:15:29.46 I miss that on a professional level, but I just missed her, 00:15:29.49\00:15:33.70 and her laughter, and her joy, and her comfort, 00:15:33.73\00:15:37.30 being there with me. Because that was always a team activity; 00:15:37.33\00:15:39.77 it was a team ministry. So that was very painful. 00:15:39.80\00:15:42.34 JB: What's really fascinating here is that as an author, 00:15:42.37\00:15:46.27 a teacher, a preacher, a television presenter, you knew 00:15:46.31\00:15:52.18 the pain that you were going to experience by doing it. Yet you 00:15:52.21\00:15:54.75 chose to do it anyway. MT: Yeah. 00:15:54.78\00:15:56.38 JB: Now, was that the, was that the healthy thing to do, 00:15:56.42\00:15:58.75 or was it just the stubborn thing to do? 00:15:58.79\00:16:00.16 MT: It can be healthy--maybe it's stubborn too, because I am 00:16:00.19\00:16:02.89 stubborn. But I do think that, that there's a health to it if, 00:16:02.92\00:16:06.66 indeed, you think you're ready for the next step. I stretch 00:16:06.70\00:16:09.50 myself, and I lean into the pain. If I put it off, it's 00:16:09.53\00:16:14.04 going to be harder and harder for me. And so I try to initiate 00:16:14.07\00:16:17.34 things. I've gone to favorite vacation spots without her, just 00:16:17.37\00:16:20.61 to initiate that. Restaurants where we've eaten together. 00:16:20.64\00:16:23.45 JB: Now, that's interesting, because you got a couple of 00:16:23.48\00:16:25.88 guys who are friends, they go fishing every Sunday. 00:16:25.91\00:16:28.15 MT: Yeah. JB: You'd say to that guy, 00:16:28.18\00:16:29.48 "Go fishing." MT: Go fishing. 00:16:29.52\00:16:30.92 JB: Yeah? MT: Don't do it right away. 00:16:30.95\00:16:32.25 Wait until you think you're ready, but initiate that. 00:16:32.29\00:16:34.89 Go back. A misconception is to think that to honor this 00:16:34.92\00:16:38.36 life, I never do those things again. That's kind of building a 00:16:38.39\00:16:41.63 monument to them, and it restricts your life. But I want 00:16:41.66\00:16:44.87 to honor Gayle's life by continuing to do the things that 00:16:44.90\00:16:47.60 we did together. One of the last things she said to me was "live 00:16:47.64\00:16:50.74 our life. Live our life." That meant faith, it meant family, it 00:16:50.77\00:16:55.48 meant ministry. But I think it further means, continue to live 00:16:55.51\00:16:58.78 with the joy that we had. So I've gone to those vacation 00:16:58.81\00:17:01.92 spots. I've gone back to the studio. I'm trying to write 00:17:01.95\00:17:04.95 again, but I can't concentrate like I, I used to be able to. So 00:17:04.99\00:17:07.86 that's been a painful experience for me; I'm just not able to do 00:17:07.89\00:17:10.36 it yet. Some things you can do and some things you can't. 00:17:10.39\00:17:12.83 JB: But you anticipate that sooner or later you'll be able 00:17:12.86\00:17:15.46 to do that. MT: Yes. I will do that again. 00:17:15.50\00:17:18.00 JB: Let me ask you this: you probably just answered 00:17:18.03\00:17:20.37 the question, but, um, let's say, for instance, you used 00:17:20.40\00:17:24.11 to love to go to the store and get an ice cream sundae. 00:17:24.14\00:17:27.44 MT: Yeah. JB: Yeah. And so now you go to 00:17:27.48\00:17:29.48 the store, and you get an ice cream sundae. 00:17:29.51\00:17:31.55 MT: Um-hmm. JB: Do you feel guilty that 00:17:31.58\00:17:34.38 you're enjoying this pleasure but she's not there, and so 00:17:34.42\00:17:38.62 maybe I shouldn't? Do you, because people 00:17:38.65\00:17:40.99 wrestle with this. MT: Yeah, they do. 00:17:41.02\00:17:42.32 JB: So I'm asking you, is that, is that a thing? 00:17:42.36\00:17:44.16 MT: It's a real thing. And it's not something that I've had; 00:17:44.19\00:17:47.20 I just feel, for me personally, I just feel her absence and, 00:17:47.23\00:17:50.80 and that sorrow. But other people feel guilt over this-- 00:17:50.83\00:17:53.20 kind of a survivor's remorse. JB: What should they 00:17:53.23\00:17:55.80 do about that? MT: I think that the best thing 00:17:55.84\00:17:57.47 to do about it is to still lean into it, and remind yourself 00:17:57.51\00:18:00.88 that this is what that person would want you to do. 00:18:00.91\00:18:03.71 As long as you have life, live it. And now this becomes 00:18:03.75\00:18:06.95 the new tribute to them. One tribute is to grieve and to 00:18:06.98\00:18:10.49 weep, and to withdraw to some degree. And you may do that for 00:18:10.52\00:18:13.62 a time. Eventually, you need to initiate contact with the pain, 00:18:13.66\00:18:17.49 and lean back into life, and that becomes the new tribute 00:18:17.53\00:18:20.13 to them. So as I engage in that process of being 00:18:20.16\00:18:23.60 willing to experience the pain, it means I'm, I cry, 00:18:23.63\00:18:27.00 I think, I talk about the experience. But I also initiate 00:18:27.04\00:18:30.44 the experience. For me, that's, that's a better way of dealing 00:18:30.47\00:18:33.41 with it. Not every personality's the same. But for me, leaning 00:18:33.44\00:18:37.01 into it and anticipating the next first, and getting there as 00:18:37.05\00:18:40.62 soon as I can, has been helpful for me. 00:18:40.65\00:18:42.62 JB: As long as you have life, live it. I'll be back with more 00:18:42.65\00:18:46.19 from Mike Tucker in just a moment. 00:18:46.22\00:18:48.29 [Music] 00:18:48.32\00:18:55.26 "Every Word" is a one-minute, Bible-based daily devotional 00:18:55.30\00:18:59.03 presented by Pastor John Bradshaw and designed 00:18:59.07\00:19:01.64 especially for busy people like you. 00:19:01.67\00:19:04.37 Recieve a daily spiritual boost. Watch "Every Word" 00:19:04.41\00:19:08.44 [Music] 00:19:08.48\00:19:12.81 JB: Guilt is a major issue in alot of lives. 00:19:12.85\00:19:16.32 Not all guilt is bad 00:19:16.35\00:19:18.02 It's good to have something inside you that let's you know 00:19:18.05\00:19:20.36 you've done something wrong. That you need to reexamine 00:19:20.39\00:19:22.69 behavior or attitudes or your response to others. 00:19:22.72\00:19:25.39 But when you've done something really wrong it can be difficult 00:19:25.43\00:19:28.33 to get over the feelings of failure or worthlessness, 00:19:28.36\00:19:30.47 or some other destructive emotions. But i've got good news 00:19:30.50\00:19:33.60 for you today. It's found in 1st corinthians 15:3 00:19:33.64\00:19:36.27 The Bible says simply, Christ died for our sins. 00:19:36.30\00:19:39.94 what you do about the things you've done wrong, 00:19:39.97\00:19:41.61 really wrong? You can't take em back. But you can let Jesus 00:19:41.64\00:19:44.68 take away the guilt and ill feelings. Jesus died for your 00:19:44.71\00:19:47.45 sins. Sin's a serious thing but Christ's death for you means 00:19:47.48\00:19:51.62 you don't have to feel guilty about the mistakes that you've 00:19:51.65\00:19:55.12 made in the past. Jesus has died for you and that's that! 00:19:55.16\00:20:00.30 I'm John Bradshaw for It Is Written. 00:20:00.33\00:20:02.60 Let's live today by every word." 00:20:02.63\00:20:04.40 [Music] 00:20:04.43\00:20:09.50 JB: Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. My guest 00:20:09.54\00:20:11.94 is Pastor Mike Tucker from Faith for Today. 00:20:11.97\00:20:14.31 And Mike, as we discuss grief, looking at the, the goals 00:20:14.34\00:20:18.15 of grief, what were those first two again? 00:20:18.18\00:20:19.95 MT: Believe that it really happened is the first 00:20:19.98\00:20:22.02 one. To be willing to experience the pain is the second one. The 00:20:22.05\00:20:24.92 third one is to make adjustments to daily life without that 00:20:24.95\00:20:27.99 person in your life. Now, for me, that means learning 00:20:28.02\00:20:31.03 to cook [chuckles], or finding cheap restaurants 00:20:31.06\00:20:34.30 [chuckles]. It also means finding a new confidante. 00:20:34.36\00:20:37.93 Whatever it may happen to be, there have to be adjustments 00:20:37.97\00:20:40.64 to life, daily life, without that individual. 00:20:40.67\00:20:42.74 JB: That becomes really practical, doesn't it? 00:20:42.77\00:20:44.57 MT: Very practical. That's where the rubber meets the road. And 00:20:44.61\00:20:46.91 you have to do those things. That's inescapable. 00:20:46.94\00:20:48.74 JB: After my dad died, my mother had to try to figure out 00:20:48.78\00:20:50.98 who was going to change the light bulbs. 00:20:51.01\00:20:52.35 MT: Yeah. JB: And get up high, 00:20:52.38\00:20:53.62 and these kinds of things. And that's, that's an adjustment, 00:20:53.65\00:20:56.45 isn't it? MT: All of those things are a 00:20:56.48\00:20:57.82 part of this whole process, and that's a big deal -- especially 00:20:57.85\00:21:01.46 when someone has been involved with your life as Gayle was with 00:21:01.49\00:21:03.83 me for 40 years. We did everything together. But, you 00:21:03.86\00:21:06.66 know, there are still certain things around the house that she 00:21:06.70\00:21:08.70 did, and it was divide and conquer. 00:21:08.73\00:21:10.40 JB: Sure. MT: I got no one to divide 00:21:10.43\00:21:11.93 with anymore, you know? It's all me. And so I have to figure out 00:21:11.97\00:21:15.54 how to do the things that she used to do. Uh, it may mean any 00:21:15.57\00:21:19.21 number of things, but you make those adjustments to daily life 00:21:19.24\00:21:21.94 without this person in your life anymore. Uh, that's, that's 00:21:21.98\00:21:25.58 reality; it's painful. You make the adjustments, but I'm also 00:21:25.61\00:21:29.62 leaning into that pain. I learned how to get through her, 00:21:29.65\00:21:32.35 her birthday the first time without her. That's an 00:21:32.39\00:21:34.96 adjustment. My daughter just, my oldest daughter, just had her 00:21:34.99\00:21:38.23 birthday. That's an adjustment, getting through that birthday 00:21:38.26\00:21:40.53 without Momma being there. I may keep some old traditions, 00:21:40.56\00:21:44.13 and I may form some new ones. I don't know yet. 00:21:44.17\00:21:46.13 JB: Forming new traditions. MT: Yeah. 00:21:46.17\00:21:48.04 JB: Isn't it denial of the past? MT: Not necessarily. I remember 00:21:48.07\00:21:51.44 one lady, when her mother died, it came Thanksgiving time. 00:21:51.47\00:21:55.21 The house was empty; her mother's house was empty. 00:21:55.24\00:21:57.35 And they always went there because it was the law 00:21:57.38\00:21:59.38 of the Medes and the Persians: you ate at Momma's 00:21:59.41\00:22:01.72 house for Thanksgiving. And Momma kind of ruled with an iron 00:22:01.75\00:22:04.92 fist. So it came up to Thanksgiving; she said, should I 00:22:04.95\00:22:07.19 go, should I have the family go back and eat there in that 00:22:07.22\00:22:09.62 house? I said, absolutely not. It's time for a new tradition. 00:22:09.66\00:22:13.40 The old tradition was fine while it lasted. Some things may stay 00:22:13.43\00:22:16.73 the same. But some things will change, and you need to form 00:22:16.77\00:22:20.27 that new tradition. JB: And people ought to feel 00:22:20.30\00:22:21.67 comfortable about taking the responsibility for making those 00:22:21.70\00:22:25.44 decisions and feeling good about it. 00:22:25.47\00:22:26.81 MT: Yeah. It's all right. And, in fact, you may make a bad 00:22:26.84\00:22:29.64 decision. Okay. Go back and do it again a different 00:22:29.68\00:22:32.58 way next time. JB: Okay. Fourth stage, or 00:22:32.61\00:22:35.12 fourth goal. MT: Fourth goal is to be willing 00:22:35.15\00:22:37.89 to say goodbye to the relationship as it used to be. 00:22:37.92\00:22:40.52 Withdraw the emotional energy and reinvest it elsewhere. I say 00:22:40.56\00:22:44.86 goodbye to that portion of our relationship, maybe one at a 00:22:44.89\00:22:48.36 time, and withdraw that emotional energy that I'd 00:22:48.40\00:22:51.53 invested in that, and eventually find a place to reinvest. 00:22:51.57\00:22:54.84 Now, the healthy reinvestments are going to have to do 00:22:54.87\00:22:57.24 with God, with other people, and with service, and with 00:22:57.27\00:23:01.11 giving, rather than just in something that's about me, 00:23:01.14\00:23:04.61 self-centered or myopic. I want a broad, purpose for life. 00:23:04.65\00:23:08.55 And so I find a way to reinvest. I may do it in volunteerism. 00:23:08.58\00:23:11.55 I can reinvest in my family, my children, my grandchildren. 00:23:11.59\00:23:15.56 That's a part of the reinvestment, and that's 00:23:15.59\00:23:17.19 okay. Some people will reinvest in a new love. That may or may 00:23:17.23\00:23:21.50 not happen for me. It certainly shouldn't happen until a couple 00:23:21.53\00:23:25.20 of years down the road for anyone. Anyone. Men are more 00:23:25.23\00:23:28.94 likely to remarry quickly. I have no idea if I ever will. 00:23:28.97\00:23:32.04 It's not anything I want to consider yet. It's not on my 00:23:32.07\00:23:35.41 radar yet, and it may never be. JB: Let me ask you this: what 00:23:35.44\00:23:40.68 should someone do, or not do, to help somebody else who's 00:23:40.72\00:23:45.19 grieving? MT: Don't try to fix it. That's 00:23:45.22\00:23:47.16 the number one thing. When, people want to make me feel 00:23:47.19\00:23:50.43 better, because we're not comfortable with pain in 00:23:50.46\00:23:53.26 western society. I may express pain, and they'll 00:23:53.29\00:23:55.43 come back with a "yeah, but." You know, the "yeah, but" 00:23:55.46\00:23:58.60 I already know. 00:23:58.63\00:23:59.93 You're not going to help me with the "yeah, but." I'm 00:24:00.04\00:24:02.30 beyond being cheered up. It will help down the road, and I know 00:24:02.34\00:24:06.44 that to be true. I know that this is not goodbye; it's 00:24:06.47\00:24:08.81 goodnight. I will see her again. But trying to cheer me up with 00:24:08.84\00:24:12.55 the "yeah, but" is not helpful. Trying to push me through it too 00:24:12.58\00:24:15.88 fast is not helpful. It's been six weeks; shouldn't you feel 00:24:15.92\00:24:19.05 better by now? No, I shouldn't. I've scarcely started by now. 00:24:19.09\00:24:21.92 JB: People say those things, don't they? 00:24:21.96\00:24:23.43 MT: Yes, they do. Yeah, they do. JB: Wow. 00:24:23.46\00:24:25.33 MT: There's a book that I mentioned to you off air. 00:24:25.36\00:24:27.66 It's entitled "Don't Ask For the Dead Man's Golf Clubs." 00:24:27.66\00:24:29.66 It's a great title! JB: What a title. 00:24:29.70\00:24:31.37 MT: But, you know, it's really a list of all the things we do 00:24:31.40\00:24:34.34 that kind of mess people up when we're, quote, "trying to help" 00:24:34.37\00:24:37.77 in grieving. But I think coming alongside and just listening to 00:24:37.81\00:24:40.98 the stories. Bringing Kleenex and being comfortable 00:24:41.01\00:24:43.45 with someone's tears, and not trying to fix them. Don't try to 00:24:43.48\00:24:46.72 cheer them up. Listen and be empathetic with them, and let 00:24:46.75\00:24:49.65 them work through that process themself. If they ask you 00:24:49.68\00:24:51.85 to cheer them up, that's fine. I think what most people 00:24:51.89\00:24:54.36 want is just someone to know that, yes, this hurts, and 00:24:54.39\00:24:57.19 I'd ,I'll be happy to listen to your stories, but I will be 00:24:57.23\00:24:59.73 there for you. JB: Grief is all part of this 00:24:59.76\00:25:01.73 great battle that's raging in the universe between 00:25:01.76\00:25:04.50 righteousness and sin. MT: Yeah. 00:25:04.53\00:25:05.97 JB: As we wrap up, tell me how your faith in God 00:25:06.00\00:25:12.84 has been a practical help to you as you grieve over 00:25:12.87\00:25:17.01 a devastating loss. MT: We mentioned that the four 00:25:17.05\00:25:20.25 activities of grief in the previous session were think, 00:25:20.28\00:25:23.35 talk, write and cry. And I would like to add to that a fifth one, 00:25:23.39\00:25:26.32 and that is pray. Even at times when you've had a loss, it feels 00:25:26.35\00:25:29.82 like God is not there, that you're talking to an empty 00:25:29.86\00:25:32.26 ceiling, pray anyway. It helps you organize your thoughts, and 00:25:32.29\00:25:36.56 it, and it still pours out your heart to the only one who can 00:25:36.60\00:25:39.00 fix it for you. And so I pray. Grief has made that, made me 00:25:39.03\00:25:46.64 even more keenly aware of the necessity for my faith in God. 00:25:46.68\00:25:50.48 Some people lose faith because they get angry. I'm not angry, 00:25:50.51\00:25:54.48 because God has not withheld any of his promises, any of his 00:25:54.52\00:25:57.15 blessings. He's a comfort. He's a strength. He cries with me. 00:25:57.19\00:26:01.02 And eventually he will dry my eyes. 00:26:01.06\00:26:04.23 JB: Amen. There's one verse I expect you've read 00:26:04.26\00:26:10.63 again and again. MT: Yeah. 00:26:10.67\00:26:12.03 JB: Tell me if this is a help. The Bible says in 00:26:12.07\00:26:17.97 First Thessalonians, chapter 4, "For this we say to 00:26:18.01\00:26:21.41 you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and 00:26:21.44\00:26:24.61 remain unto the coming of the Lord will by no means proceed 00:26:24.65\00:26:27.58 those who are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from 00:26:27.62\00:26:31.95 heaven with a shout, with the voice of an 00:26:31.99\00:26:34.39 archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ 00:26:34.42\00:26:39.53 will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught 00:26:39.56\00:26:42.96 up together with him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the 00:26:43.00\00:26:45.30 air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord." And verse 18 00:26:45.33\00:26:48.87 says, "Therefore, comfort one another with these words." Mike, 00:26:48.90\00:26:54.94 the Bible doesn't say those words take away our pain. 00:26:54.98\00:26:56.98 MT: No, it does not. JB: But it does say 00:26:57.01\00:26:58.51 they offer comfort. MT: Yes. 00:26:58.55\00:26:59.78 JB: Do they offer you comfort? MT: They do, because I know that 00:26:59.81\00:27:02.02 what I've said is not goodbye; it's goodnight. I will see her 00:27:02.05\00:27:05.52 again in the morning. And that brings comfort. Surprisingly, it 00:27:05.55\00:27:09.32 brings varying degrees of comfort at different phases. 00:27:09.36\00:27:12.29 JB: Sure. MT: There are times when it's 00:27:12.33\00:27:13.63 not particularly comforting. But overall, I know those 00:27:13.66\00:27:16.40 things to be true. And long term, yes, it brings 00:27:16.43\00:27:18.70 comfort; it brings hope. Because I grieve, 00:27:18.73\00:27:21.04 but not as those who have no hope, as we are counseled. 00:27:21.07\00:27:24.57 I know that my Lord is coming, and when he comes Gayle will 00:27:24.61\00:27:28.14 rise, because her faith was in him. And I will see her again. 00:27:28.18\00:27:31.58 That is great hope. It's not goodbye; it's goodnight. 00:27:31.61\00:27:34.02 JB: You know, more than I know, that what you've shared today 00:27:34.05\00:27:38.12 is going to be an immense help and a comfort to countless 00:27:38.15\00:27:40.76 people. Thanks very much. Let's pray together. 00:27:40.79\00:27:42.59 MT: Sure. JB: Our Father in heaven, we are 00:27:42.62\00:27:46.26 grateful that the Bible declares that you are the God of all 00:27:46.29\00:27:49.36 comfort. And there are times in our experience where we 00:27:49.40\00:27:53.44 wrestle with emotions, and hurts, and losses and joys 00:27:53.47\00:27:56.71 that we don't really know how to process. We need your help. And 00:27:56.74\00:28:02.91 so thank you for being our help and our stay and our strength. 00:28:02.94\00:28:06.15 And friend, as, as I pray now and you're dealing with 00:28:06.18\00:28:11.09 perhaps, a loss, perhaps grief, perhaps just difficulty 00:28:11.12\00:28:14.99 of some type in your life, are you willing to 00:28:15.02\00:28:18.49 say to Jesus, "Lord, I'm willing to let you carry me through"? 00:28:18.53\00:28:23.73 Friend, don't give up. Don't quit. Don't fall back. Are you 00:28:23.77\00:28:28.00 willing to continue to say, "I'm placing my faith and trust in 00:28:28.04\00:28:31.51 you"? Heavenly Father, take our hearts. We're not even sure most 00:28:31.54\00:28:36.61 of the time how to give them. Maybe we cannot. But we can ask 00:28:36.64\00:28:39.68 you to take them, and keep them, and minister to our hurts and 00:28:39.71\00:28:44.02 our confusions and our lack of understanding. Give us grace to 00:28:44.05\00:28:47.49 trust you now and always. And we look forward to that wonderful 00:28:47.52\00:28:51.06 day when Jesus returns. In Jesus' name, Amen. 00:28:51.09\00:28:56.06 Make sure you get your free copy of "Coping with Grief" 00:28:57.17\00:28:59.90 by John Bradshaw free to any address in North America. 00:28:59.93\00:29:03.30 Call 1-800-253-3000. Or you can write to us at It Is Written, 00:29:03.34\00:29:08.28 P.O. Box 6, Chattanooga, TN 37401. To download a free 00:29:08.31\00:29:13.62 electronic version, pease visit us online at itiswritten.com. 00:29:13.65\00:29:17.99 There is a way through life's toughest times. 00:29:18.02\00:29:20.49 "Coping with Grief" by John Bradshaw. 00:29:20.52\00:29:23.56 Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm looking to seeing you 00:29:24.16\00:29:27.40 again next time. Until then, remember, "It is written, 'Man 00:29:27.46\00:29:31.70 shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 00:29:31.73\00:29:37.01 from the mouth of God.'" 00:29:37.04\00:29:37.97 [Music] 00:29:38.01\00:29:41.71