[Music]
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[Music]
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JB: This is It Is
Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
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Thanks for joining me. We both
know that there are some things
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in life that we are going
to experience no matter what.
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And some of those experiences
we wouldn't choose to experience
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if we had a choice. But many
of them, we don't have a choice.
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One of them is grief. Grief
hurts, it's painful, and you're
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going to experience sooner or
later. That's just the way life
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goes. But what is grief, and how
do we deal with grief, and what
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should a person do --what could
a person do, when grief strikes
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close to home? Well, I'm blessed
to have with me in the studio
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today a good friend, Mike
Tucker. Pastor Mike Tucker who's
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the speaker and director of
Faith for Today, a Christian
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ministry. You may well have seen
Pastor Tucker hosting Lifestyle
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Magazine or leading out in
one of his "Mad About Marriage"
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Seminars. Mike Tucker,
thanks for joining me today.
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Mike Tucker: It is a joy to be
here with you, John. Thank you.
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JB: I'm going to start at
the beginning. What's grief?
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How do we define that?
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MT: Grief is an emotional,
psychological, physical reaction
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to any experience of loss. It
can be loss through death, loss
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of a job, loss of a body part
--anything else in your life
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that is significant, there
may be a grief response to it.
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JB: Now, one of the reasons
I'm speaking with you is because
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you're a trained counselor. MT:
Um-hmm. JB: A licensed marriage
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therapist, family expert. And
you have some experience with
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grief as well, and we're going
to talk about that in just a
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moment. Grief is just one of
those things that everybody is
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going to experience. MT:
Everyone. You don't get out of
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life without grief. And most
of your viewers have already had
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some experience with grief.
To what degree? That varies
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according to life experiences.
But everyone gets it. Everyone
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has it. Some people think that
Christians shouldn't grieve.
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That's just a misnomer. You have
to grieve. Everyone grieves.
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JB: Now, there are certain
things that you might ought
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to do when grief comes.
MT: Yeah. JB: We'll talk about
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those soon. MT: Sure.
JB: So before we explain it.
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There's probably ways
you can equip yourself
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to deal with grief
before it comes. MT: Um-hmm.
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JB: Okay.  MT: Yeah,
especially if you see a loss
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coming, you can engage in
what we call anticipatory grief:
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being willing to go ahead
and experience those tears, and
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trying to anticipate what life
will be like without them. But I
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think beyond that is a matter of
keeping relationships healthy,
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and keeping yourself personally
health: physically fit, with
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positive relationships and a
positive faith. But having an
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appropriate picture of the
nature of God, his personality,
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his character --what he has
promised you, what he has not
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promised you --will actually
help prepare you for grief.
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JB: Okay, now, so you can grieve
about different things. MT: Yeah
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JB: I could, I could lose a
cherished possession. MT: Yes.
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JB: I can grieve that. MT:
Um-hmm. JB: Okay, what are the
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inappropriate ways to deal
with grief? What are the grief
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mistakes that people often make?
MT: Some people try to stuff it
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or ignore it, act like it's not
there. They will deny it. Other
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people will try to out-medicate
it, out-drink it, something of
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that nature. Some people will
try to outwork it. They just
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won't give expression to the
pain by crying. They won't allow
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themselves to do those things.
Those are all inappropriate
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ways. Another inappropriate way
would be to build a shrine to,
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to that which is lost. You know,
sometimes people build a shrine
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in their home to a person who's
died, and for years on, no one
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can touch that. You know, to do
something like that temporarily
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may be understandable. But when
you do this and it lasts for
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years, that can be another
inappropriate way to deal with
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it. But just a refusal to
deal with the pain, to give
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expression through tears,
through talking --those are all
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inappropriate responses. JB:
As a pastor I speak from time to
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time with people who will
tell me, "Oh, I'm doing fine."
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MT: Yeah. JB: Or, or
they'll tell me, "I'm not doing
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fine." I'll dig a little
deeper and... MT: Um-hmm.
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JB: ...you know, "It's been six
weeks since my loved one died,
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and I find myself still weeping,
and I just wish I was...."
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That's just not
realistic, is it?
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MT: No, it's not. The
average recovery time for a
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significant loss is one to two
years, although you can grieve
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actively for up to five years
and not be pathological with
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that grief. And even when
we talk about recovery, that
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doesn't mean that you won't ever
cry again. It doesn't mean you
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won't miss that person again.
That will be a part of your
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experience for the rest of
your life, especially with a
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significant loss. But it may
mean that you come to the point
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where it's not the first thing
on your mind every morning when
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you wake up, and the last thing
you think about before you go to
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bed, when you finally get to
that point of recovery, so that
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you can function more normally.
JB: I think it's important for
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people to know what's normal...
MT: Yeah. JB: ...what's
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acceptable, so that they don't
think they have a problem they
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don't have. I remember asking my
wife's grandmother --Grandma was
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around 80 at the time, and I
discovered that she'd had a baby
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girl. She raised three or four
boys. I should know whether it's
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three or four, shouldn't I? MT:
[Laughs] JB: And she gave birth
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to a little girl who died very,
very young, as an infant. And so
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this loss that she'd experience
had been about 60 years before,
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55 to 60 years before. And I
said to her, "Grandma, you had a
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daughter. I never knew that."
And she said, "Yes, I -" and
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just from out of nowhere,
her voice choked and tears came.
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MT: Yeah, yes. JB: Fifty-five
to sixty years later, she was
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grieving a loss. MT: Um-hmm.
JB: That's normal, isn't it?
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MT: Yes, it is normal. There's
nothing wrong with that. Because
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this is an impactful experience
for your life. You never get
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over, truly, the loss. You, you
may be more comfortable with it;
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you may be able to function
again. But you may have tears
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over this loss for the
rest of your life. JB: Let's say
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somebody is a secretary working
in an office situation. MT: Yeah
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JB: Well, it doesn't have to
be a secretary. It could be a
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departmental director.
Or a guy works in a factory.
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MT: Uh-huh. JB: So
you're surrounded by
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people. You've got to go back
to life. You're putting in your
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eight to ten
hours a day. MT: Um-hmm.
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JB: But grief is just all over
you, and grief begs expression.
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What's the right
thing for people to do?
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MT: Well, the right thing for
you to do if you're the person
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experiencing this is to
recognize that your tears are
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going to come, and that's okay.
And when they come, don't make
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an apology for them. Just allow
it to happen. And if the people
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around you are savvy and they
are, they are understanding,
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then they're going to accept
that, and it's going to be
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normal. So I would say,
make sure that you give yourself
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ample room for, for mistakes.
You make sure you double-check
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your work. Take frequent breaks
if possible. Um, and then don't
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be afraid to give expression
to the pain. Don't be afraid to
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cry, and don't be afraid to tell
the stories, because that's all
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a part of the process. JB:
So, to experience grief and to
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internalize grief, to express
grief, is all appropriate and,
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and fine. MT: It is. JB: But
when's a person going too far?
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I know, this may, it's going
to differ from person to person.
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MT: It will. JB: And, uh, you
get the very unthinking people
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who say, "Are you not over that
already? It's been six months."
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MT: Yeah. JB: That's the
last thing you want to say to a
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person. When is expressing grief
become --when does that become
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too much? MT: To give a timeline
or a specific answer to that is
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difficult. But there comes
a time when grief no longer
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becomes an expression of your
pain, but becomes a monument to
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self-pity. Sometimes we can like
the negative attention we get
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from the expression of pain. And
again, that may not happen the
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first year. It may not happen
until after that. But there
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comes a time when you realize
that you, you're doing nothing
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but grieving. And you're telling
the stories; you're crying with
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every event. Everything becomes
about your loss. That becomes
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very selfish and it becomes
rather myopic. And so, to learn
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that there are appropriate times
to give expression to this, and
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there comes the time when you
actually have to say goodbye to
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the relationship that used to
be, and withdraw that emotional
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energy, and no longer make this
a monument to you and to your
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self-pity, but, instead, begin
to celebrate the life that was,
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and celebrate the things that
you had. Again, that's going to
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vary for every person, but
there does come a time when it's
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appropriate to do that. JB:
Now, you're speaking to this
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subject... MT: Yes. JB:
...from first-hand experience.
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MT: Absolutely. JB: We're going
to talk about that in just a
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moment. More with Pastor
Mike Tucker and grief when we
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come back. Don't go away.
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Grief. Sadly, it's an inevitable
part of life. There's no
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escaping loss in this world
and the pain that comes along
00:10:12.77\00:10:15.88
with it. Grief can be disabling,
intense and debilitating. So
00:10:15.91\00:10:19.98
make sure you get your free
copy of "Coping with Grief" by
00:10:20.02\00:10:22.02
John Bradshaw. There
is a way through life's
00:10:22.05\00:10:25.39
toughest times. Learn how you or
someone you care about can cope
00:10:25.42\00:10:29.09
with grief. Discover principles
that will show you how to return
00:10:29.12\00:10:32.53
to a life full of joy and hope.
Please, don't let grief be any
00:10:32.56\00:10:36.83
more difficult than it has
to be. When the burdens of loss
00:10:36.87\00:10:39.77
seem to be more than you can
handle, there is a way you can
00:10:39.80\00:10:42.40
cope with grief. To receive the
book "Coping with Grief," call
00:10:42.44\00:10:45.94
right now 1-800-253-3000.
There's absolutely no cost or
00:10:45.97\00:10:50.65
obligation, and our lines
are open 24 hours a day. If the
00:10:50.68\00:10:54.15
lines are busy,
please try again. We'll send
00:10:54.18\00:10:57.59
"Coping with Grief" free to any
address in North America. Call
00:10:57.62\00:11:00.99
1-800-253-3000, or you can
write to us at It Is Written,
00:11:01.02\00:11:06.23
P O Box 6, Chattanooga,TN,
37401. To download a free
00:11:06.26\00:11:11.60
electronic version of "Coping
with Grief," please visit us
00:11:11.63\00:11:14.60
online at ItIsWritten.com.
To get your free copy of
00:11:14.64\00:11:18.84
"Coping with Grief," call
right now, 1-800-253-3000.
00:11:18.87\00:11:23.61
JB: It Is Written is a
faith - based ministry, and your
00:11:23.65\00:11:26.95
support makes it possible for
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00:11:26.98\00:11:30.45
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Thank you for your
continued prayerful support.
00:11:38.26\00:11:40.96
[Music]
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JB: This is It Is Written.
I'm John Bradshaw. Thanks for
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joining me today. My
guest is Pastor Mike Tucker from
00:11:47.04\00:11:50.21
Faith for Today. Mike, we've
been talking for a few moments
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about grief. We alluded to your
personal experience with grief.
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MT: Um-hmm. JB:
Tell me more about that.
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MT: Recently I've had
the biggest loss of my life.
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My wife of forty years, Gayle
Tucker, passed away. You know,
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we were partners in ministry.
Uh, we had worked together as
00:12:07.46\00:12:11.83
pastors and in television
ministry for forty years.
00:12:11.86\00:12:15.23
Everything I did was intricately
involved with her. JB: It wasn't
00:12:15.26\00:12:18.87
really a matter of Mike Tucker.
MT: No. JB: It was Mike and
00:12:18.90\00:12:22.17
Gayle. MT: Mike and Gayle. JB:
Mike and Gayle. Mike and Gayle.
00:12:22.20\00:12:24.11
MT: Mike and Gayle. Everything
we did. Television, marriage
00:12:24.14\00:12:27.01
seminars, pastoral ministries.
She was a pastor as well. So
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every aspect of my life was
intricately involved with her.
00:12:30.31\00:12:32.88
She was my very best friend. We
were traveling all over the, the
00:12:32.91\00:12:36.52
world doing marriage seminars,
among other things. And we were
00:12:36.55\00:12:39.59
in Vancouver, British Columbia,
when her right hand started to
00:12:39.62\00:12:42.66
go numb. She thought she
had slept on it wrong. But by
00:12:42.69\00:12:47.03
Saturday afternoon when we were
doing a marriage presentation,
00:12:47.03\00:12:49.76
her right hand would work so
poorly that she had to hold the
00:12:49.80\00:12:52.47
microphone in her left hand for
three and a half hours making
00:12:52.50\00:12:54.90
the presentation, because she
knew it would fall to the floor
00:12:54.94\00:12:57.27
if she held it in the right.
I said, "This is wrong, we got,
00:12:57.31\00:12:59.67
I've got to get you to the
hospital." She said, "Wait till
00:12:59.71\00:13:01.74
we get back in the country,
tomorrow," which would be March
00:13:01.78\00:13:04.25
6. I said, "Okay." So we flew
to Dallas, and when we landed, I
00:13:04.28\00:13:09.05
said, "Now, which hospital
do you want me to take you to,
00:13:09.08\00:13:11.05
because you're not going
home." And so she told me which
00:13:11.09\00:13:13.96
hospital, I took her there,
and immediately they diagnosed
00:13:13.99\00:13:16.79
strokes. When is insane to me,
because the woman was so active.
00:13:16.83\00:13:20.46
She was not overweight, no
cholesterol. I mean, no risk
00:13:20.50\00:13:24.23
factor for stroke.
JB: The picture of health.
00:13:24.27\00:13:26.10
MT: Absolutely. She played
volleyball every week with a
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group of ladies she'd play
volleyball with for over 20
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years. And it took another week
and a half of testing to figure
00:13:31.41\00:13:33.94
out that she had stage
four pancreatic cancer that had
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already metastasized to her
liver. And the liver, one of the
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side effects of liver cancer,
can be a condition they call
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"sticky blood," which means it
was creating blood clots in her
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body, and when those broke apart
it went to the brain, and that's
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where the strokes came from. The
stroke was a symptom. She was
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going to die of pancreatic
cancer. JB: Now, if you don't
00:13:53.09\00:13:57.13
mind. MT: Please. JB: She
was going to die. MT: Yes.   JB:
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Pancreatic cancer typically is a
one-way street. MT: Yes, it is.
00:14:00.17\00:14:03.74
JB: But... MT: Yeah. JB: People
can be healed. MT: Yes. JB: God
00:14:03.77\00:14:07.74
is a great God. MT: Yes. JB: You
know God well. MT: Absolutely.
00:14:07.78\00:14:11.05
JB: You have for many years. MT:
Um-hmm. JB: But you felt then
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--how did you process that? Were
you living on hope, were praying
00:14:14.02\00:14:16.72
for her to be healed, or
how quickly did you get to
00:14:16.75\00:14:20.02
resignation, I think we're going
to lose her? MT: You know, I, I
00:14:20.06\00:14:23.89
was realistic enough to realize
that unless God performed a
00:14:23.93\00:14:27.03
miracle, I was going to lose my
wife. And she knew that as well.
00:14:27.03\00:14:30.93
I've worked as a chaplain in
hospitals for years. I've done,
00:14:30.97\00:14:35.00
I've seen enough of this. I've
worked with hospice patients. I
00:14:35.04\00:14:37.67
know, and she knew as well, that
unless God intervened, we were
00:14:37.71\00:14:41.91
going to lose her. And she
was ready. She was, she was okay
00:14:41.94\00:14:45.98
with that. She wanted to
be healed. We had an anointing
00:14:46.01\00:14:48.35
service, as is called for in
James. And we, we had a prayer
00:14:48.38\00:14:52.52
for healing, believing fully
that God could heal her. Because
00:14:52.55\00:14:54.96
I, like you, have seen
miraculous healing. JB: Sure
00:14:54.99\00:14:58.33
And so I knew that God was
capable. But I also know, and
00:14:58.36\00:15:01.86
knew, that God might say no. At
least, right now. Every prayer
00:15:01.90\00:15:06.47
for healing is answered
yes. Sometimes immediately.
00:15:06.50\00:15:08.94
Sometimes over time with prayer
and medicine and surgery. And
00:15:08.97\00:15:12.44
sometimes the healing
will take place resurrection.
00:15:12.47\00:15:14.78
JB: That's right.
MT: We asked for option
00:15:14.81\00:15:16.01
A or B, but we're
willing to accept option C.
00:15:16.04\00:15:19.88
And so yes, I knew
that this was a real
00:15:19.91\00:15:22.65
possibility, and she did too. So
we prepared for the worst while
00:15:22.68\00:15:25.72
hoping for the best. JB: You
said Gayle was okay with that.
00:15:25.75\00:15:29.59
MT: Yeah. JB: Tell me, if
you wouldn't mind, what she went
00:15:29.62\00:15:33.90
through. There's your wife of
40 years, someone--everyone who
00:15:33.93\00:15:37.70
knew her, loved her. So you
weren't alone in that. MT: Yeah.
00:15:37.73\00:15:41.67
JB: How does a person take that
kind of news? Gayle at stage 4
00:15:41.70\00:15:45.34
pancreatic cancer. It's
metastasized. We know the
00:15:45.37\00:15:47.88
chances are about this good.
MT: Yeah, yeah. JB: How does a
00:15:47.91\00:15:50.71
person deal with that? MT:
You know, obviously it was a big
00:15:50.75\00:15:53.48
blow to her. And it took her
a while to just kind of digest
00:15:53.52\00:15:57.09
this. And when she began to
realize it, I asked her, "Are
00:15:57.12\00:16:00.86
you angry? Are you frightened?"
She said, "No." She said, "I've
00:16:00.89\00:16:04.23
had sixty years of immaculate
health." And she had. I mean,
00:16:04.26\00:16:07.56
she was vibrate and healthy
and active. And she said, "Some
00:16:07.60\00:16:11.10
people never get a day. I've
had forty years of a wonderful
00:16:11.13\00:16:14.77
marriage, and some people never
know that. I've had over forty
00:16:14.80\00:16:17.17
years of exciting ministry,
fulfilling ministry. I've got
00:16:17.21\00:16:20.11
children and grandchildren and
extended family and friends. And
00:16:20.14\00:16:23.45
some people never know any
of that. For me to be angry that
00:16:23.48\00:16:26.28
that only lasted sixty years
instead of eighty seems to be
00:16:26.31\00:16:29.28
somewhat ungrateful, and I'm
not going to be ungrateful to my
00:16:29.32\00:16:32.65
Lord. I just thank him for what
I've had." JB: Amen. MT: That
00:16:32.69\00:16:35.66
was her attitude. JB: Wow. MT:
And she got that attitude early
00:16:35.69\00:16:38.46
on. She never experienced fear,
because she knew her heart was
00:16:38.49\00:16:41.70
right with Jesus. She never
experienced anger, because she
00:16:41.73\00:16:45.07
was grateful for what she'd had.
And amazingly, I had already had
00:16:45.10\00:16:49.20
the same thoughts --which
is strange for me, because,
00:16:49.24\00:16:52.34
truthfully, anger has always
been my go-to emotion. But I'd
00:16:52.37\00:16:55.38
gone through a previous loss, a
financial and a career loss, at
00:16:55.41\00:16:59.31
an early point. We lost our
house. We lost our savings. I
00:16:59.35\00:17:02.68
thought I'd lost my career. I
thought it was all over. And I
00:17:02.72\00:17:05.19
hadn't done anything. And my
response was anger. Because at
00:17:05.22\00:17:08.62
the time I was giving 30 percent
of my gross income to the
00:17:08.66\00:17:11.19
church. I was volunteering as a
pastor while working in private
00:17:11.23\00:17:14.20
business. All sorts of exciting
things were happening with the
00:17:14.23\00:17:17.50
church. It was growing like
crazy. And my anger was, "God,
00:17:17.53\00:17:20.37
what did you want? Forty
percent? I don't get it." I
00:17:20.40\00:17:23.24
thought because of my
hard labor, my generosity, the
00:17:23.27\00:17:27.21
success of the ministry, that
God owed me better than what he
00:17:27.24\00:17:30.08
gave me. And when I realized
that anger comes when we think
00:17:30.11\00:17:33.68
we're getting less from God than
what he owes us, then I began to
00:17:33.72\00:17:37.72
realize that I had sinned in my
life by expecting something from
00:17:37.75\00:17:41.09
God he'd never promised. I
confessed that to him, and he
00:17:41.12\00:17:44.93
forgave me. And I promised, by
God's grace, I would make sure
00:17:44.96\00:17:47.96
my lived theology would be
congruent with my expressed or
00:17:48.00\00:17:54.67
my preached theology. And that
happened. So that when Gayle got
00:17:54.70\00:17:58.87
sick, I realized, I've had a
blessing that was beyond what
00:17:58.91\00:18:01.98
most people ever experience.
JB:So you weren't experiencing
00:18:02.01\00:18:04.88
anger either. MT: No anger
either. In fact, it's been six
00:18:04.91\00:18:07.28
months since her death, and I'm
still not angry. JB: Forty years
00:18:07.32\00:18:10.09
of marriage. MT: Yeah. JB:
A catastrophic loss. MT: Yes.
00:18:10.12\00:18:14.46
JB: No anger. MT: No anger.
There's incredible pain. JB:Sure
00:18:14.49\00:18:18.53
There's incredible emptiness and
loneliness. There's, there's, I
00:18:18.56\00:18:23.16
cry at unexpected times. But
no anger. Because God has not
00:18:23.20\00:18:26.47
shortchanged me one iota. He has
given me more than what he ever
00:18:26.50\00:18:30.24
promised me. And so since he
has given me more than what he
00:18:30.27\00:18:34.51
promised, I have no reason for
anger, because most people never
00:18:34.54\00:18:37.65
experience what I've had. I
celebrate what I've had. I miss
00:18:37.68\00:18:41.92
what I've had. But I'm not angry
with God. JB: There's more.
00:18:41.95\00:18:45.69
We're going to come back to the
story we began in just a moment.
00:18:45.72\00:18:48.09
Pastor Mike Tucker,
we're dealing today with grief
00:18:48.12\00:18:51.79
--something we all must
experience, and something that,
00:18:51.83\00:18:55.56
if it hasn't come near you,
it will. Today's program very
00:18:55.60\00:18:59.37
important. We'll be back
with more in just a moment.
00:18:59.40\00:19:02.17
"Every Word" is a one-minute,
Bible-based daily devotional
00:19:03.34\00:19:06.61
presented by Pastor John
Bradshaw and designed especially
00:19:06.64\00:19:09.74
for busy people like you.
Recieve a daily spiritual boost.
00:19:09.78\00:19:13.65
Watch "Every Word."
00:19:13.68\00:19:15.78
[Music]
00:19:16.08\00:19:20.86
JB: It's an enormous shame when
00:19:20.89\00:19:22.12
people lose hope in God. But
it happens. And it's happened to
00:19:22.16\00:19:25.53
some outstanding people. Think
about John the Baptist and his
00:19:25.56\00:19:28.76
temporary discouragement.
The cousin of Jesus had boldly
00:19:28.80\00:19:32.20
proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb
of God who takes away the sin of
00:19:32.23\00:19:35.64
the world." But one day he sent
some of his disciples to ask
00:19:35.67\00:19:38.74
Jesus, "Are you the coming
one, or do we look for another?"
00:19:38.77\00:19:42.18
That's Matthew 11, verse 3. John
had been convinced. But now he's
00:19:42.21\00:19:45.85
in prison, and Jesus, who
he believed to be the Messiah,
00:19:45.88\00:19:49.15
hadn't got the Romans out of
Israel, and hadn't got John out
00:19:49.18\00:19:52.25
of prison. John knew Jesus was
the Messiah, but he let go of
00:19:52.29\00:19:57.29
faith and started to make
judgments by what he could see.
00:19:57.33\00:20:00.80
John couldn't see too well.
Jesus was the Messiah, still is.
00:20:00.83\00:20:04.67
And our difficult circumstances
won't ever change that. I'm John
00:20:04.70\00:20:09.10
Bradshaw for It Is Written.
Let's live today by every word."
00:20:09.14\00:20:12.41
[Music]
00:20:15.94\00:20:17.15
JB: Thanks for joining me
today on It Is Written. I'm
00:20:17.18\00:20:19.55
John Bradshaw. My guest today,
from Faith for Today, Pastor
00:20:19.58\00:20:22.88
Mike Tucker. Mike, we're talking
about your own experience with
00:20:22.92\00:20:25.95
grief. MT: Um-hmm. JB: A couple
of moments ago you shared how
00:20:25.99\00:20:29.29
Gayle was diagnosed with stage 4
pancreatic cancer. We got about
00:20:29.32\00:20:34.13
to the place where she was
accepting of this diagnosis and
00:20:34.20\00:20:38.17
ready for whatever God had
for her. So what happened next?
00:20:38.20\00:20:41.67
MT: Well, you know, we got
the diagnosis March 16 of 2016.
00:20:41.70\00:20:45.87
First symptoms March 3 to March
6, and then the diagnosis March
00:20:45.91\00:20:50.01
16. And so we began to examine
our options. We were praying for
00:20:50.05\00:20:54.82
healing. But she wanted to be
home. And so we took her home.
00:20:54.85\00:20:59.45
Started with home health, and
eventually went to hospice when
00:20:59.49\00:21:02.06
it was appropriate. But
basically, she wanted to get as
00:21:02.09\00:21:05.39
strong as she could and
enjoy the time she had with her
00:21:05.43\00:21:07.60
family. So we started calling in
family members. We had to limit
00:21:07.66\00:21:11.87
the number of friend visits
because we have so many in the
00:21:11.90\00:21:14.37
area, and it was draining for
her. JB: Sure. MT: And so, so
00:21:14.40\00:21:17.61
many I wanted to bring in, but
I couldn't. But she just started
00:21:17.64\00:21:21.51
spending her days making sure
that things were right between
00:21:21.54\00:21:24.11
her and the Lord, and that
she spent as much time with her
00:21:24.15\00:21:26.85
children and grandchildren
and siblings and her mother as
00:21:26.88\00:21:30.52
possible. And so there were days
of joy and days of laughter. And
00:21:30.55\00:21:34.66
she entered into a coma on April
8, and then passed away April 10
00:21:34.69\00:21:40.13
She was, her daughters were
by her side. I was with, with
00:21:40.16\00:21:44.20
her. One of the, the sisters
were with her. She passed
00:21:44.23\00:21:47.94
peacefully while we were praying
with her and touching her and
00:21:47.97\00:21:50.51
loving on her. And she fell
asleep in Jesus on April 10 in
00:21:50.54\00:21:54.18
the afternoon, about 5:47 p.m.
JB: Now, the first symptoms.
00:21:54.21\00:22:01.18
MT: Yeah. JB: March 3. MT:
March 3, when her hand went
00:22:01.22\00:22:05.29
numb. JB: And then goodbye.
MT: April 10. JB: Six weeks.
00:22:05.32\00:22:09.72
MT: Yeah. JB:
There are couple of
00:22:09.76\00:22:13.90
questions I could ask at once.
One is, that's really quick.
00:22:13.93\00:22:18.33
MT: Very quick. JB:
From having your ministry
00:22:18.37\00:22:19.50
partner, your life partner,
you're traveling together,
00:22:19.53\00:22:21.04
you're doing God's work.
And she's, evidently, in full
00:22:21.07\00:22:24.17
health. MT: Full health.
JB: Six weeks later she's gone.
00:22:24.21\00:22:27.01
MT: Yeah. JB: At the same time,
Mike, that's not quick. Quick is
00:22:27.04\00:22:31.11
hit by a bus. MT: Yeah, yeah.
JB: That's quick. MT: Yeah.
00:22:31.15\00:22:34.48
JB: So I wonder if you can
talk with me about, about the
00:22:34.52\00:22:37.72
emotions that you experienced
and how you dealt with, or how
00:22:37.75\00:22:40.66
you're dealing
with... MT: Um-hmm.
00:22:40.69\00:22:42.16
JB: ...uh, losing a perfectly
health wife, just like that.
00:22:42.19\00:22:46.59
Where does that take you?
How do you wrestle with that?
00:22:46.63\00:22:50.27
MT: I wanted to be
as strong as I could
00:22:50.30\00:22:51.63
around her. But I, I wept like
crazy. Just trying to get my
00:22:51.67\00:22:55.60
mind around, anticipating what
it was going to be like without
00:22:55.64\00:22:58.17
her, and just accepting
the reality that unless Jesus
00:22:58.21\00:23:01.24
intervened, I was going to lose
her. The things that I've been
00:23:01.28\00:23:03.85
trying to do is, is to think.
When the thoughts come, I think
00:23:03.88\00:23:07.42
them fully. I weep when
the, when the tears come. I talk
00:23:07.45\00:23:11.52
about it, I, I share my feelings
with other people. I write about
00:23:11.55\00:23:15.96
it. Um, I pray about it. Those
things are helpful. The other
00:23:15.99\00:23:20.06
thing I do is I walk. When I'm
home, I walk anywhere from eight
00:23:20.10\00:23:23.00
to twelve miles a day. Those
are prayer time for me, and it's
00:23:23.03\00:23:26.17
thinking time. It gives me the
opportunity to focus on nothing
00:23:26.20\00:23:29.17
more than, than my loss and my
God and, and my prayer time. And
00:23:29.20\00:23:33.98
those things have helped me.
Talking with my family, talking
00:23:34.01\00:23:36.88
with friends, telling the
stories over and over again. Not
00:23:36.91\00:23:40.12
just the stories of her loss and
the death, but the stories of
00:23:40.15\00:23:43.32
our life together. JB: Sure. MT:
Of meeting her, the first date,
00:23:43.35\00:23:47.06
you know, and the proposal.
Telling those stories over and
00:23:47.09\00:23:51.06
over again are important to me.
And then the stories of ministry
00:23:51.09\00:23:54.00
together, the different places
we've been, the decisions for
00:23:54.00\00:23:57.67
Christ we've witnesses. Those
are the things that are helping
00:23:57.70\00:24:00.40
me. And then being close to
my family, just holding onto my
00:24:00.44\00:24:03.57
daughters, my grandchildren,
and helping them grieve as well.
00:24:03.61\00:24:06.21
Those are the activities. But
before Gayle died, she wrote a
00:24:06.24\00:24:10.81
letter to each of our children
and to our two grandchildren. It
00:24:10.85\00:24:14.38
was a letter to be given to them
about six weeks after the death.
00:24:14.42\00:24:17.62
By write I mean she dictated and
I had to type, because her hand
00:24:17.65\00:24:20.32
didn't work and she had lost her
sight by the end. And after she
00:24:20.36\00:24:23.63
finished that, she said, "I need
to write a letter to you." I
00:24:23.66\00:24:25.89
said, "Well, we have no
one to dictate that to. I mean,
00:24:25.93\00:24:28.10
basically, you're stuck. And
what are you going to say to me
00:24:28.13\00:24:30.20
you haven't said every day for
forty years anyway?" She said,
00:24:30.23\00:24:33.13
"You may be right." I said, "So,
for argument's sake, what would
00:24:33.17\00:24:35.54
you say?" She said, "There's
nothing to regret. We had a
00:24:35.57\00:24:39.51
great life together. Don't,
don't beat yourself up for any
00:24:39.54\00:24:42.11
mistakes. No regrets. That's
number one." And number two, she
00:24:42.14\00:24:45.51
said, "Live our life." That's
what she wanted for me. Our life
00:24:45.55\00:24:49.52
has been faith, family and
ministry. That's who we are,
00:24:49.55\00:24:56.29
that's what we've done.
JB: I want to ask you this. No
00:24:56.32\00:24:58.83
regrets. MT: Yeah. JB: Easy to
say. MT: Oh, yeah. JB: Easy to
00:24:58.86\00:25:02.00
say, no regrets. Hey, Mike,
when I'm gone, have no regrets.
00:25:02.03\00:25:05.43
MT: Yeah. JB: Really? MT: Yeah.
JB: Do you have any regrets?
00:25:05.47\00:25:07.67
MT: I really don't. You know,
I've made mistakes. JB: Sure.
00:25:07.70\00:25:10.57
MT: I haven't been the perfect
husband. But every time I think
00:25:10.61\00:25:13.31
of those things, I remember what
she said. No regrets. That means
00:25:13.34\00:25:16.34
that she had forgiven me for any
mistake, just as I've forgiven
00:25:16.38\00:25:18.88
her. JB: I think it's important
to be able to look back on
00:25:18.91\00:25:21.15
mistakes made... MT: Yeah.
JB: ...within the context. We're
00:25:21.18\00:25:23.25
human, we're going to make
mistakes. MT: Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:23.28\00:25:25.22
She had an amazing memory.
She could forget every mistake I
00:25:25.25\00:25:28.29
ever made. So why would I beat
myself up over something that
00:25:28.32\00:25:31.99
she had forgiven me for? God
has forgiven me, and he says he
00:25:32.03\00:25:35.30
remembers my sins no more. So
for me to remember it and bring
00:25:35.33\00:25:38.67
it up seems foolhardy. JB: What
I believe is that even when you
00:25:38.70\00:25:41.84
have some kind of catastrophe in
your life, if you're a believer
00:25:41.87\00:25:45.67
in God, you can still see God's
hand. MT: Yeah. JB: Right? Is
00:25:45.71\00:25:49.48
that right? MT: Yeah. JB: Did
you see God's hand through this
00:25:49.51\00:25:51.98
process. MT: Yes, I did. JB: How
do you see God's hand in what's
00:25:52.01\00:25:55.65
a disaster? MT: Yeah. The first
place I see it is in the way she
00:25:55.68\00:25:59.75
died. She died as she lived. And
when people saw the congruence
00:25:59.79\00:26:03.49
between what she lived and how
she died, they were brought to
00:26:03.53\00:26:07.30
faith. Another way that I see
this is that, even though we've
00:26:07.36\00:26:10.53
had a close-knit family,
this has brought us even closer
00:26:10.57\00:26:13.54
together. My daughters and I
are tight. And I, I don't make
00:26:13.57\00:26:17.67
decisions without them. But
another thing is that as I've
00:26:17.71\00:26:20.98
given expression to my pain.
I've written about it. I've
00:26:21.01\00:26:23.85
shared it openly from the
pulpit. And when they see me
00:26:23.88\00:26:27.02
doing this, it gives them
courage and gives them hope.
00:26:27.05\00:26:29.28
Those are some of the, just a
few of the ways that I see God's
00:26:29.32\00:26:33.92
hand in this. JB: We just have
a moment. Someone's experiencing
00:26:33.96\00:26:37.96
grief... MT: Yeah. JB: ...and
it just seems like the end.
00:26:37.99\00:26:42.20
MT: Yeah. JB: Now, very
obviously, one can go on,
00:26:42.23\00:26:47.87
because for six thousand years
of human history people have...
00:26:47.90\00:26:49.80
MT: We've done so. JB:
...been going on. Yeah.
00:26:49.84\00:26:50.71
MT: We've done so.
JB: What do you say
00:26:50.74\00:26:52.01
to that person who's
grieving, uh, and just sees
00:26:52.04\00:26:56.75
blackness ahead? How can that
person go on? MT: First of all,
00:26:56.78\00:27:01.12
this won't last forever. It will
seem like it. But the darkest
00:27:01.15\00:27:04.72
part of it will not last
forever. God has promised to be
00:27:04.75\00:27:07.52
a very present help in this
time, even though at times he
00:27:07.56\00:27:09.99
seems even further away because
of your pain. That's normal.
00:27:10.03\00:27:13.46
He's promised to get you through
this. He will. JB: The Bible
00:27:13.50\00:27:16.87
promises us, in Psalm 30 and
verse 5, "Weeping may endure for
00:27:16.90\00:27:22.84
a night, but joy comes in
the morning." Is that your
00:27:22.87\00:27:27.41
experience? MT: It is. JB:
Is there joy? MT: Yes, there's
00:27:27.44\00:27:30.11
still joy. It, it comes now
in moments, and at times I see a
00:27:30.15\00:27:34.35
little bit more of it. I see it
in my grandchildren; they're 3
00:27:34.38\00:27:37.22
and 5, and when they want to
come play with Papa. They miss
00:27:37.25\00:27:40.69
Grammie like crazy and they cry,
but they like to play with Papa,
00:27:40.72\00:27:43.99
and I see the joy of life in
their eyes. That's joy for me.
00:27:44.03\00:27:48.33
When I preach and I see people
respond to a message, that's joy
00:27:48.36\00:27:51.47
to me. When they respond to the
television programs, I have joy
00:27:51.50\00:27:55.14
there. I have joy with my
daughters. There's still joy in
00:27:55.17\00:27:57.97
life. It's mitigated with the
pain, but there's still joy. And
00:27:58.01\00:28:03.18
I know that God has even
more joy for me in the future.
00:28:03.21\00:28:06.08
Eventually there'll be more.
JB: Pastor Mike Tucker, this has
00:28:06.11\00:28:08.95
been a big deal.
Thanks for joining me today.
00:28:08.98\00:28:11.19
MT: My pleasure. JB:
Truly appreciate it. Thanks.
00:28:11.22\00:28:12.92
Let's pray together.
MT: Sure. JB: Let's pray.
00:28:12.95\00:28:15.46
Our Father in heaven, we're
going to be honest with you
00:28:15.49\00:28:16.79
and tell you, we wish
there was no such thing
00:28:16.83\00:28:19.29
as grief. We don't like loss.
Human beings weren't created to
00:28:19.33\00:28:23.93
grieve. When you created
this earth, death wasn't on your
00:28:23.97\00:28:27.74
agenda. [piano in background]
JB: But an enemy hath done this.
00:28:27.77\00:28:31.84
We thank you today that the
Bible encourages us, "Greater is
00:28:31.87\00:28:35.78
he that is in you than he that
is in the world." And so we will
00:28:35.81\00:28:40.22
take our strength in you
and trust that, when life's
00:28:40.25\00:28:43.22
difficult circumstances come,
you'll get us through; that
00:28:43.25\00:28:47.42
weeping may endure for a night,
but joy comes in the morning.
00:28:47.46\00:28:51.46
Thank you, Lord, for allowing
Mike to be here today and share
00:28:51.49\00:28:53.96
his experience. Continue
to bless him and use him in a
00:28:54.00\00:28:57.00
powerful way to offer hope,
and hope in Christ to many. And
00:28:57.03\00:29:02.17
bless us. Friend, if
you're going through a difficult
00:29:02.20\00:29:04.44
experience now, would you yield
your heart to Jesus? Just pray,
00:29:04.47\00:29:08.91
"Lord, take my heart and make it
yours." Let that be your prayer.
00:29:08.94\00:29:12.91
Lord Jesus, take my hand. Give
me your peace. Give me faith and
00:29:12.95\00:29:18.42
trust in you always. Lord,
we thank you for answering our
00:29:18.45\00:29:21.86
prayer and keeping us close
to you. In Jesus' name, Amen.
00:29:21.89\00:29:28.16
Thanks for joining me today. I'm
looking to seeing you again next
00:29:28.20\00:29:31.17
time. Until then, remember, "It
is written, 'Man shall not live
00:29:31.20\00:29:35.70
by bread alone, but by every
word that proceeds from the
00:29:35.74\00:29:40.38
mouth of God.'"
00:29:40.41\00:29:41.24
[Music]
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[Music]
00:29:51.32\00:30:06.30