The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are
cautioned this presentation
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may be too candid
for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley and I am here
with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
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and she is a licensed
professional counselor.
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And today we're
going to be discussing
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a very sensitive topic
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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Jen, how...
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It's a
conversation you need to have.
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Yo.
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We're going to have
this conversation today.
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How does a marriage
recover from adultery?
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And can it even do?
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Yeah, is that
even possible? Yeah.
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In my case if it happened,
I don't feel it's possible
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but I'm not married right now.
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That's right.
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But, you know, in my thinking
at this very moment for me now.
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You're coming into the convo
with a little bit of baggage
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and a little bit of
bias and you just think
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if that happened in my
marriage, it'll be over.
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Yes.
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And you know, you're allowed,
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I mean, we're
permitted to divorce
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but let's say,
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people don't
want to go that route,
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what can they do in that case?
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So Jesus and Moses
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cited only adultery
as grounds for divorce.
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We've had other discussions
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about if there
are any other grounds,
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kind of the
conventional wisdom is,
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if it's any of the three A's
adultery, abandonment or abuse,
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then divorce is
permissible biblically,
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some people don't believe that
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but they believe
it's just adultery.
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Jesus said that, Moses said it.
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So that's kind of where I land
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but I realize there
are different views.
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Disclaimer here, if
there's abuse going on,
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separate, we all
agree about that.
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So at any rate when
Jesus said, it's only adultery,
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He was obviously saying
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that adultery
was a serious assault
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on that relationship
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if it's the only grounds
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and if it's in His thinking
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worse than abuse
perhaps potentially,
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like that's a serious assault.
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You kind of wonder why?
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And I think it's the very reason
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that you're kind of
bringing out in your view
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and that is that the
trust is so completely destroyed
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as a result of that adultery.
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But even then He
encouraged forgiveness.
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So let's look at
the verse itself,
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chapter says, I'm
sorry, this is Matthew 19:8.
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"Jesus said,
'Moses permitted you
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to divorce your wives
because your hearts were hard.
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But it was not this
way from the beginning.
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I tell you that
anyone who divorces his wife,
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except for sexual immorality,
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and marries another
woman commits adultery.'"
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Very strong words
there. Absolutely.
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So he said,
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"Moses permitted you
to divorce your wives
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because your hearts were hard."
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So apparently it's
not an ideal situation
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'cause God doesn't
want our hearts to be hard.
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And Jen...
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I'm not trying
to be hard on you.
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No, no.
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What I was going to say was,
adultery is a hard situation.
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That's true. Yeah, you're right.
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The hardness of heart could be
on the other person's part too.
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Could be the
person that cheated,
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they're like, I'm
not even sorry, you know.
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It's all your fault or whatever.
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So, you know, we don't
know exactly what that means.
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But let's just say for instance
that God has led a person
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and there are
reasons, you can see
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where if you're in a
marriage for many years
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and it's been basically
happy and you have children
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and there's just a whole kind of
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commitment going on there
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that it would be hard
to leave that relationship,
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harder than the situation
where it's just two people.
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So let's talk
about adultery recovery.
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I would put it this way,
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it's possible
but it's difficult.
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Okay.
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Number one, first and foremost,
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there needs to be
clear deep repentance
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on the part of the
person that cheated.
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And we're really clear on
this that the Bible teaches
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that repentance is a gift,
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it's not something
you can manufacture,
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something you can
conjure up within yourself.
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It's something
that God gives you
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but you have to be
willing to receive it.
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And so that's essential
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because what the repentance does
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is it cuts at the root
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of the person's
obsession with sin
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or the person's
addiction to that sin.
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You know, John the Baptist
said that the axe is laid
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to the root of the tree.
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He was calling the
people to repentance,
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that was his ministry.
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He says the axe is laid
to the root of the tree.
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You get a sense that
repentance cuts you off
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from the sort of the
tributary of sin into your life.
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And so that
repentance is just essential
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and that person will
manifest fruits of repentance.
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Lot of times when I deal
with abuse cases I'll get this,
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well, how do you know
if they've repented or not.
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Well, Jesus said there
are fruits of repentance
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and when you go
buy an apple tree,
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you know, you see the
fruit on the apple tree
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or you at least
see the little buds
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that's going to
become the fruit,
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it's just suitable to
individuals on the outside
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that fruit of repentance.
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So the spouse of the
person will be able to see
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the fruits of repentance.
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They're going to admit
they're wrong without excuses.
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There may have
been some provocations
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on the part of
the grieved spouse
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that a spouse
that did not cheat,
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they may have made
home life miserable
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but never under
any circumstances
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is adultery a good idea,
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never is an
appropriate response,
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never is it justifiable.
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So that individual
needs to take responsibility,
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admit what they
did without excuses.
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However I do not
recommend a detailed description
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of what went on.
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And what I find is
sometimes the grieved spouse
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is obsessed with what happened
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and they'll start
asking for details
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and they'll require that,
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let me just say this
upfront that it's very important
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that a couple that's
been through adultery
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have a counselor
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because that is
another pair of eyes
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on the situation
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that will help you
avoid those pitfalls.
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For instance the
cheater having to tell in detail
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the grieved spouse what
went on in the relationship
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which ends up being more
destructive than helpful.
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So those are some
things that a counselor
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can help you with.
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And then you need
to be willing to hear
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the pain of the grieved spouse
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and you may need
to hear that pain
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and empathize with
that pain for longer
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than you think is necessary,
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but that well is very deep,
and that blow is very severe,
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and the trust is very shattered.
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And so you need to hear the pain
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that you caused in
that person's life.
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And hearing that
pain and empathizing
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with that pain is foundational
to never repeating that again
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because you start
to feel what they feel
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and then you develop an
aversion to the very sin
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that was once attractive to you.
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So you need to be
willing to hear the pain
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of your spouse.
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I think that what people
are going through recovery
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from any sexual sin,
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they need to bow out of
spiritual responsibilities.
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I'm pretty strong on that.
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I think if someone
violates their congregant
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has an "affair"
with the congregant
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like a pastor or
someone of spiritual authority.
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When it's done, I
think they're finished
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and they no
longer have the privilege
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of being in spiritual leadership
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but say it's a consensual affair
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and that person may be a deacon
or a Sabbath school teacher.
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I would recommend you back
out of those responsibilities
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just so that you
can focus everything
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on repairing that
situation and that relationship.
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And I would say
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also there's with
spiritual leadership
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sometimes a denial factor
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where you think
you're more together
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than you really are
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because you're
presenting as together.
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And this can help
backing out of those things
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can help break
that spell so to speak.
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A lot of times
the grieved spouse
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will try to
police the other spouse
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as the one that cheated
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as they try to rebuild trust,
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that's not a good idea.
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We talked about
this before. Yes.
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You said the reason
you wouldn't want to try
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to repair a marriage in
which there had been adultery
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is because you just wouldn't
be able to reinstate trust.
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Yeah, once trust is broken,
it's very hard to rebuild.
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You know, it's hard and then if,
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let's say, the
person who cheated
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then the person
who he cheated on,
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if she, he or she is
bringing it up constantly,
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you know, years down
the road then it's...
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That's not going to work.
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It distrusts the
relationship. Yeah.
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And the person
who was cheated on
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if they don't have that
trust, you can't trust...
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But I have seen it
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where people
really do get past it.
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I think it's possible, I do.
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I agree with you. Yeah.
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I think it's possible,
it's just not for me, you know.
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Well, we have to go there.
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So maybe a
counseling session or something.
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That's good.
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But you know
what I'm saying like,
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it's possible to do this
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but what I recommend is
rather than the grieved spouse
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policing the
spouse that cheated,
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the spouse that
cheated is the one
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that volunteers the information
the grieved spouse needs
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to reinstate trust
'cause there's going to be
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a period of time
where you don't know
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if you can trust them again.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so there has to
be that period of time
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where you're just
extra, extra accountable.
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So I was
working with one couple,
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and there had been
strip clubs involved
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and the wife was
tempted to police him,
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where are you driving,
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how are you getting to
work in this type of thing.
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And instead what
he did was he said,
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"I had to go
around the long way.
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I didn't even want to go by it.
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But then the next day
I had to drive right by
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because the
road was blocked off.
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But I want you to know
that, honey, that I did that.
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And then here's my
phone I want you...
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And here's my password.
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I want you to be
able to look at my phone
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anytime you want to."
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So he's volunteering this
stuff rather than withholding it
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and her policing him.
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Very, very important
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that you kind of
switch that process.
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So some of the
accountability measures
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that are extra
important are number one,
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the cheating spouse
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needs to cut off that
relationship completely
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or cut the supply
line if it happens to be,
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you know,
pornography or whatever it is.
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They need to make a
clean break with that.
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They need a computer
filter if porn is involved.
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The couple needs individual
and marriage counseling.
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So you need both,
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you need someone to talk
to that individual who cheated
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and help them
restore and help them recover
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and of the
individual who was cheated on
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needs a counselor
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and they need
marriage counseling.
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You're thinking,
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"Man, I can see the
counseling bills just.
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And it is
expensive." But you know what?
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How can you put a
price tag on a marriage?
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If you really want
to fix this marriage
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then be willing to
make the sacrifice,
00:10:43.44\00:10:45.04
take out a loan or
whatever you have to do.
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I recommend to the individual
who cheated a support group.
00:10:47.14\00:10:51.01
We like Celebrate Recovery
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because they're
available everywhere,
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it's a Christian based,
biblically based support group.
00:10:53.78\00:10:56.48
But whatever
you can find locally
00:10:56.52\00:10:58.39
that will help people
00:10:58.42\00:10:59.75
in recovery
from sexual addiction
00:10:59.79\00:11:01.72
or any kind of,
00:11:01.76\00:11:03.09
if you can find one that's just
for adultery recovery, great.
00:11:03.12\00:11:06.46
But if you can't,
usually a sexual addiction group
00:11:06.49\00:11:08.53
will address the same issues.
00:11:08.56\00:11:10.17
And I recommend
that the cheating partner
00:11:10.20\00:11:12.93
have an accountability partner,
00:11:12.97\00:11:14.97
someone that they can
talk to about these things.
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.64
So do you see a
little more possibility
00:11:17.67\00:11:20.01
of how it could work?
00:11:20.04\00:11:21.38
Preferably of the same sex.
00:11:21.41\00:11:22.74
Oh, definitely.
00:11:22.78\00:11:24.11
Then you're
running into another issue.
00:11:24.15\00:11:25.95
That's right.
00:11:25.98\00:11:27.32
That's
particularly when you're young.
00:11:27.35\00:11:28.68
Yes.
00:11:28.72\00:11:30.05
You know, the Bible
says, Ephesians 4:32,
00:11:30.09\00:11:32.49
"Be kind one to
another, tenderhearted,
00:11:32.52\00:11:35.02
forgiving one another,
even as God for Christ's sake
00:11:35.06\00:11:38.83
has forgiven you."
00:11:38.86\00:11:40.20
And that tenderhearted,
kindness toward one another
00:11:40.23\00:11:43.87
really comes into play
00:11:43.90\00:11:45.73
typically when if an
individual is truly repentant.
00:11:45.77\00:11:49.64
And they have strayed
and they're truly repentant,
00:11:49.67\00:11:51.87
they're overwhelmed
with shame at times.
00:11:51.91\00:11:54.28
And they hate themselves.
00:11:54.31\00:11:55.88
And tender
kindness and forgiveness
00:11:55.91\00:11:57.71
from their
spouse can mean so much.
00:11:57.75\00:11:59.88
You know, I'll
say this too that.
00:11:59.91\00:12:02.48
Sometimes we carry around
00:12:02.52\00:12:05.05
a big bag of self-righteousness.
00:12:05.09\00:12:07.92
And we can be
difficult to be around,
00:12:07.96\00:12:10.33
difficult to love
when we're self righteous.
00:12:10.36\00:12:13.73
Sometimes making
a concrete mistake
00:12:13.76\00:12:16.80
can really be the
wake-up call we need.
00:12:16.83\00:12:19.40
Humbling experience.
00:12:19.43\00:12:20.77
Yeah, can be this
humbling experience
00:12:20.80\00:12:22.14
that can make us so
much more godly spouse
00:12:22.17\00:12:23.67
in the long run.
00:12:23.71\00:12:25.04
So I think there is
life after adultery.
00:12:25.07\00:12:27.51
But I need to
clarify that forgiveness
00:12:27.54\00:12:29.81
and trust are
not the same thing.
00:12:29.84\00:12:32.81
You may choose to
forgive your cheating spouse
00:12:32.85\00:12:35.95
but you may not
choose to continue
00:12:35.98\00:12:37.55
in the relationship with them.
00:12:37.59\00:12:39.22
And you have biblical grounds,
it's okay you can opt out.
00:12:39.25\00:12:42.72
But trust is kind of
built on top of forgiveness.
00:12:42.76\00:12:46.16
So if there's that
foundation of forgiveness
00:12:46.19\00:12:47.90
and if your
relationship is salvageable,
00:12:47.93\00:12:50.37
it may be that you
can rebuild the trust.
00:12:50.40\00:12:53.27
I'm with the forgiveness aspect,
00:12:53.30\00:12:55.00
like I definitely
support that the forgiveness
00:12:55.04\00:12:58.64
is just the continuing
down the road and allow...
00:12:58.67\00:13:01.44
With our relationships.
00:13:01.48\00:13:02.81
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
00:13:02.84\00:13:04.18
Rebuilding.
00:13:04.21\00:13:05.55
Forgiveness is a
given. We forgive everyone.
00:13:05.58\00:13:07.22
We don't live in
bitterness and resentment
00:13:07.25\00:13:10.02
toward people that have hurt us.
00:13:10.05\00:13:12.09
However do we want to
continue in that relationship
00:13:12.12\00:13:14.66
is the question?
00:13:14.69\00:13:16.02
And that is a question
a person needs to answer
00:13:16.06\00:13:18.79
with a lot of variables
and in prayer with the Lord,
00:13:18.83\00:13:22.10
and seeking His
will in their lives,
00:13:22.13\00:13:23.67
and asking Him to,
00:13:23.70\00:13:25.03
you know, mould their
hearts to be like His heart.
00:13:25.07\00:13:28.27
And you know, I'll pray for you.
00:13:28.30\00:13:30.24
Yeah, thank you.
00:13:30.27\00:13:31.61
But I'm sure you're
just the most forgiving guy,
00:13:31.64\00:13:34.28
but this is obviously
a difficult area for you.
00:13:34.31\00:13:37.38
I am very forgiving.
00:13:37.41\00:13:38.75
You know, I am a
very forgiving person.
00:13:38.78\00:13:40.45
I've been forgiven in a
lot of things, you know.
00:13:40.48\00:13:42.45
God has forgiven
me in a lot of things.
00:13:42.48\00:13:44.29
And so I am a forgiving person,
00:13:44.32\00:13:46.32
it's just a matter
of continuing that.
00:13:46.35\00:13:48.79
And it is the ultimate challenge
00:13:48.82\00:13:51.23
for a marriage to get past that,
00:13:51.26\00:13:52.66
it is the ultimate challenge.
00:13:52.69\00:13:54.36
It's very, very difficult.
00:13:54.40\00:13:56.46
And I continue to check in with,
00:13:56.50\00:13:58.23
you know, clients
that I'm working with,
00:13:58.27\00:13:59.60
do you want to work past this
00:13:59.63\00:14:00.97
because you can, you
can end your relationship
00:14:01.00\00:14:03.67
if you want to.
00:14:03.71\00:14:05.04
You have to be fully engaged.
00:14:05.07\00:14:06.41
It's a deep and very
interesting topic there.
00:14:06.44\00:14:09.14
Our time is just about up.
00:14:09.18\00:14:11.05
But if you want
some more information,
00:14:11.08\00:14:13.62
more resources,
visit intimate clarity.tv.
00:14:13.65\00:14:17.35
And we hope to see
you on the next episode.
00:14:17.39\00:14:20.22
God bless.
00:14:20.26\00:14:21.86