The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are
cautioned this presentation
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may be too candid
for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate
Clarity. I'm Jason Bradley.
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And I'm here with
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
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and she is a
professional licensed counselor.
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And today, we're going
to be discussing a topic
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that is sensitive in nature,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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Jen, what are we
going to be talking about?
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We're going to be talking
about intersex conditions.
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Intersex.
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What do you mean by intersex?
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What do you think I mean?
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You have no clue?
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A hermaphrodite
or what type of...?
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That's a word that's
sometimes used, sometimes.
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Okay, okay.
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So some people are born
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with physical
sexual abnormalities
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or disorders of
sexual development
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is what they're called or DSDs.
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And they're called intersex too
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because the sex
differentiation process
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is interrupted.
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Okay.
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So let me give us
a little background
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in how we
differentiate sexually in utero.
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So each embryo
begins with proto-gonads,
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male or female.
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And they develop
into male or female gonads
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about six to
eight weeks in utero.
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And this depends on whether
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the differentiating
chromosome is XX or XY.
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In other words, it
just depends on if they have
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female chromosomes
or male chromosomes.
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A gene on the Y chromosome
which is called the SRY gene
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turns the gonads
which both have into testes.
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Okay.
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And then those
testes secrete testosterone
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and that masculinizes the fetus.
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Without the SRY gene,
the gonads become ovaries
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and secrete estrogen,
and the fetus is feminized.
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Okay.
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So the SRY gene can be
missing or dysfunctional,
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leading to problems
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such as the female
embryo developing male anatomy.
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It happens.
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There's another condition called
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complete androgen
insensitivity syndrome or CAIS.
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What is that?
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Where male
genitalia never develop.
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Okay.
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There's another
intersex condition.
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It only occurs in
the Dominican Republic.
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And a child
appears to be female,
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but at 12 years old,
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they'll develop
male anatomy, yeah.
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It only occurs
in the Dominican...
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Well, it tends... Yeah.
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I think that's pretty
much where they've found it
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and I think that's...
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Yeah.
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I don't think they
have any examples of it
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outside of the DR.
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And so it could be related
to something environmental,
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we don't know.
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But let me say this,
that these conditions,
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even though they're tragic
and difficult to cope with,
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they're quite rare.
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Now there is a battle
going on in the research circles
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about how rare they
are because you can see
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where a certain
politically charged group
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would want to inflate
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the numbers of
intersex individuals
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in order to argue for
other different things
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like
transgenderism, for instance.
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So you can see
where there would be
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some incentive there.
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So there's a little
bit of a battle going on.
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A recent paper said
that the intersex population
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was as high as
1.7% of all births,
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almost 2%, this paper said.
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But then another paper
came along and basically said,
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"You're defining
intersex too broadly."
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And I'm going to quote
from that paper, they said,
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"If the term intersex
is to retain any meaning,
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the term should be
restricted to those conditions
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in which chromosomal sex
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is inconsistent
with phenotypic sex."
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In other words,
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your male
chromosome's female parts.
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Okay.
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Or in which the
phenotype is not classifiable
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as either male or female
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which we just
called a hermaphrodite,
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it's the old term used for it.
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Okay.
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So those are the two conditions
in which we should truly call
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a person intersex.
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Applying this more
precise definition,
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the true prevalence of intersex
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is seen to be about 0.018%.
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0.018%?
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Very small percent.
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Wow!
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And that's one in 5,000,
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I think if I did the math right.
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So it's a very few people. Wow!
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This makes me
think of what Jesus said.
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Jesus said in Matthew 19:12,
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"For there are eunuchs
who were born that way,
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and there are eunuchs
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who have been
made eunuchs by others,
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and there are those who
choose to live like eunuchs
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for the sake of
the kingdom of heaven.
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The one who can
accept this should accept it.
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So basically what
he's saying is some people,
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at least in the
beginning part of that passage,
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some people are
born sexually broken.
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And that is true of
this intersex population.
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So let's talk a little
bit about this and how we,
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as church
members, need to respond
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to this situation where
people are born different
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and when the
differentiation process
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does not come off as
planned, so to speak.
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How do we treat those people?
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Well, you talk to
them, you get to know them
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without judging them.
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You know, the Bible says,
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"Man will judge on
the outward appearance."
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That's right.
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"But God looks at the heart."
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That's right.
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So you have to
talk to that person
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and figure out what's going on
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because
outwardly, like, looking in,
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you might think
that they made the choice
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to have whatever change...
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Yeah, and I can
see someone like that
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coming to church
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and doing the very best they can
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with their circumstances,
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and they hear a
sermon against LGBTQ.
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And so it really
doesn't serve us well
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in ministry to others to
become overly politicized
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about these issues
in a church context.
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I'm not saying we
shouldn't vote appropriately
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according to our conscience,
but in a church context,
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we need to be very careful
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about being so
politically driven
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that we become
insensitive to the brokenness
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that people are dealing with.
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You see what I'm saying?
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Because the
reality is there's politics
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on the other side too.
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There are people pushing,
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you know, trying to inflate
the numbers of intersex people,
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trying to say this is just
another example of the fact
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that sexuality is fluid,
nothing matters, you know?
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And so there's a
political agenda on the left,
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there's also one on the right.
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We need to divest ourselves
of both of those things.
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And when we work
with these people
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that are dealing with
the intense brokenness,
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we need to put
ourselves in their place
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and feel what it
would be like to be them.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Yeah, show some compassion.
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That's right, that's right.
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I want to clarify.
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I will return to that point,
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but I want to
clarify that intersex
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is vastly different
from transgenderism.
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Break that down. Yeah.
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Well, I can't
write it down right now
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but write it down at home.
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No, no. Break,
break, break that down.
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Oh, break it down.
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I thought you
said write it down.
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No, no, no, no. Break it down.
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Well, intersex involves
actual physical abnormalities,
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interruptions or
things going wrong
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in the differentiation process.
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So it's a physical problem.
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And that person
is born in many cases
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neither male nor female.
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Now what they used to do
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is they'd do the best they could
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to guess which sex they were
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and then they
would do some surgery
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to kind of make
them into that sex.
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What they're doing now is
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they're leaving them as is
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until they can come to
the age of accountability
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and letting them
make up their own mind
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because, you know,
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we're doing more
of that kind of thing
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anyway these days.
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So they're giving more
time to that individual
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but that means that
individual has to grow up
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as neither male nor female.
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And that's hard on a person.
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That's socially difficult
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because we're
used to seeing people
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in this binary way.
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And so I'm sounding a little bit
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like, you know, a
politically correct person
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but we have to be
sensitive to this.
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And then it seems like
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there's a lot of
years of confusion there
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in that instance.
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That's right.
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And so that individual's
dealing with physical odds.
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But what's
happening in transgenderism
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is that individual
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is perfectly differentiated
physically in most cases.
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They're either male or female
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but they identify
with the opposite sex.
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So it's a psychological disorder
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not a physiological disorder.
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And they really
shouldn't be classed the same.
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That's really not accurate.
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And so I'm just saying
that these intersex individuals,
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though I want to kind of
return to that central point
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that these intersex individuals
really give us a compassion
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for what some
people are dealing with
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on a psychological level.
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People that are
struggling with transgenderism
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are really hurting.
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People that are dealing
with same sex attraction
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are really hurting.
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And often, they're
hurting in the context of church
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because they know
what the Word of God says
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and they know what
church culture is like
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and they know how holy God is.
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And oftentimes, they
can feel like, you know,
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"I'm broken and
God made me defective.
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There's something wrong with me,
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I'm different
than everyone else."
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We need to be
very sensitive to that,
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whether they'd be
intersex or transgender
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or same-sex
attracted, we need to have
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long compassion for
them because just like
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you could have a
physical abnormality,
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you can have
psychological abnormalities.
00:09:24.26\00:09:26.96
So again, I don't
question the problem.
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I don't deny the problem.
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I just question the
solution that people are,
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you know, going to, to
try to resolve the problem.
00:09:34.67\00:09:37.37
Yeah, yeah, just...
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It's like not
dealing with the root cause
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but just masking the symptoms.
00:09:42.98\00:09:45.41
So what would
you say to a person,
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an intersex person
that came to church?
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I'm kind of interested
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in what your
thoughts are on that.
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You know, you're
in a church context,
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someone comes in
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and they kind of look
like they're kind of male
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but maybe not and
it's kind of confusing.
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We don't realize how
disturbing that is for us
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because, you know, we
live in a binary world.
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Honestly, I'd be confused.
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I don't know.
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It's tough for me to sit here
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and say like
exactly how I would react,
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just to be honest.
00:10:10.51\00:10:11.84
But I would be
a little confused,
00:10:11.87\00:10:13.48
I'd probably...
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I would speak, I'd say,
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"Hello, welcome to,
you know, our church."
00:10:16.24\00:10:19.21
And ask them where they're from
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and stuff like
that in my conversation.
00:10:21.65\00:10:24.72
But I don't know
how I would react
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in that situation.
00:10:27.19\00:10:28.52
What do you
think Jesus would do?
00:10:28.56\00:10:29.92
I think that He would love them.
00:10:29.96\00:10:31.29
I think that He would go
and He would talk to them
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and get to know them.
00:10:33.36\00:10:35.40
You know, when we
look at the life of Christ,
00:10:35.43\00:10:37.83
He met people,
00:10:37.87\00:10:39.43
He talked to them,
00:10:39.47\00:10:40.97
He established a relationship,
00:10:41.00\00:10:43.64
determined what their needs were
00:10:43.67\00:10:45.01
and He met those needs.
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You know, when I was in
my internship for counseling,
00:10:46.41\00:10:49.24
they would give
me all of the clients
00:10:49.28\00:10:51.01
that nobody else wanted.
00:10:51.05\00:10:52.65
And you know,
00:10:52.68\00:10:54.02
I didn't get paid
for it or anything.
00:10:54.05\00:10:56.08
So they'd give me the
people that couldn't pay.
00:10:56.12\00:10:58.62
And they referred
someone to me named Baby.
00:10:58.65\00:11:01.39
And he was a transgender man.
00:11:01.42\00:11:02.86
He was trying
to become a female.
00:11:02.89\00:11:04.73
And he hadn't had
any surgery or anything.
00:11:04.76\00:11:07.60
I don't think he had any money.
00:11:07.63\00:11:09.26
And he also couldn't
hear well and speak well.
00:11:09.30\00:11:12.43
So it was very
challenging to sit
00:11:12.47\00:11:13.94
through
counseling sessions with him.
00:11:13.97\00:11:16.04
And he would
want to pose with me
00:11:16.07\00:11:17.64
in front of the
building and stuff.
00:11:17.67\00:11:19.01
He was always, you know,
kind of flamboyant personality,
00:11:19.04\00:11:20.74
who want to put on
a show all the time.
00:11:20.78\00:11:22.94
The staff at the
counseling office
00:11:22.98\00:11:25.18
would make fun of him,
00:11:25.21\00:11:27.18
but I would see a
child of God across from me.
00:11:27.22\00:11:29.78
And so I started to ask him,
00:11:29.82\00:11:31.15
you know, "What was
your childhood like?"
00:11:31.19\00:11:32.82
And it turned out that that boy
00:11:32.85\00:11:35.12
had no
supervision, no real parenting,
00:11:35.16\00:11:37.43
and just basically
grew up in New York City.
00:11:37.46\00:11:39.46
Yeah. And ran the streets.
00:11:39.49\00:11:41.16
He was
basically a street urchin.
00:11:41.20\00:11:43.33
And he just ran the
streets and fended for himself
00:11:43.37\00:11:45.97
from the time he was a child.
00:11:46.00\00:11:47.87
And every once a
while, Baby would say to me...
00:11:47.90\00:11:49.80
You know, he had
a speech impediment,
00:11:49.84\00:11:51.37
so he would want to say,
00:11:51.41\00:11:52.74
"I want to be a
responsible person."
00:11:52.77\00:11:54.34
Like, he wanted to be mature.
00:11:54.38\00:11:55.71
He didn't want to be...
00:11:55.74\00:11:57.08
And his life was a
disaster to be honest.
00:11:57.11\00:12:00.82
But he would say, "I
want to be reponsible.
00:12:00.85\00:12:02.18
I want to be Repon..."
00:12:02.22\00:12:03.55
Because he
couldn't hear himself.
00:12:03.59\00:12:04.92
Yeah.
00:12:04.95\00:12:06.29
"I want to be
reponsible, Jennifer,
00:12:06.32\00:12:07.66
I want to be reponsible."
00:12:07.69\00:12:09.02
And I would just say, you
know, "Baby, God hears you.
00:12:09.06\00:12:11.03
And God knows that
you want to change.
00:12:11.06\00:12:12.59
And He loves you
just the way you are."
00:12:12.63\00:12:14.93
And to come to that place
00:12:14.96\00:12:16.30
where we're willing
to deal with our own,
00:12:16.33\00:12:18.13
you know, kind of
freak out kind of mechanism
00:12:18.17\00:12:21.47
and just put our arms
around people and say,
00:12:21.50\00:12:23.30
"God loves you just
the way you are right now.
00:12:23.34\00:12:26.41
And Jesus has a
way forward for you.
00:12:26.44\00:12:28.78
I don't know exactly what it
is but I think you can do it.
00:12:28.81\00:12:31.68
And I know that He'll
hold your hand through it."
00:12:31.71\00:12:34.22
That's Christianity.
00:12:34.25\00:12:35.58
Yeah. That's what it really is.
00:12:35.62\00:12:37.02
And a lot of times,
the challenging part for me
00:12:37.05\00:12:39.05
is because I've been
persecuted by militant.
00:12:39.09\00:12:42.99
A certain church
I was involved in,
00:12:43.02\00:12:44.36
there was a man who was
a very militant gay man.
00:12:44.39\00:12:47.73
And he would
attack me on social media
00:12:47.76\00:12:49.66
and he'd make it
very uncomfortable for me
00:12:49.70\00:12:51.23
to go to that church.
00:12:51.27\00:12:53.17
It was a hard experience for me.
00:12:53.20\00:12:56.04
And he was actively recruiting,
00:12:56.07\00:12:57.61
you know, he was not
a wholesome influence
00:12:57.64\00:13:00.88
but there was a
wounded person inside there.
00:13:00.91\00:13:04.48
That's when it's the
hardest to love people
00:13:04.51\00:13:06.31
and surround them is
when they're militant.
00:13:06.35\00:13:07.75
And sometimes, we have
to have healthy boundaries
00:13:07.78\00:13:10.19
for those individuals, you know?
00:13:10.22\00:13:11.59
Yes, yes.
00:13:11.62\00:13:12.95
But what would Jesus do?
00:13:12.99\00:13:14.32
He would see beyond that anger
00:13:14.36\00:13:15.69
and he'd put
His arms around them
00:13:15.72\00:13:17.16
and do all He could
to melt away that anger
00:13:17.19\00:13:19.76
and get to the
core of who they were.
00:13:19.79\00:13:21.13
Yeah. And I think...
00:13:21.16\00:13:22.56
I really think that
just like God is calling us
00:13:22.60\00:13:24.30
to a high-moral standard,
00:13:24.33\00:13:25.73
he's calling those that
for whom a high-moral standard
00:13:25.77\00:13:29.60
comes a little more naturally
to have a high standard of love
00:13:29.64\00:13:34.31
for the LGBTQ
population community.
00:13:34.34\00:13:38.38
We need to love
them as Jesus loves them.
00:13:38.41\00:13:39.91
What would Jesus do?
00:13:39.95\00:13:41.28
He'd put His arms around them
00:13:41.32\00:13:43.02
and help them
find a way forward,
00:13:43.05\00:13:44.45
give them something better.
00:13:44.49\00:13:45.82
Yeah.
00:13:45.85\00:13:47.19
And show them that
they can gain the victory.
00:13:47.22\00:13:48.56
That's right.
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:13:48.59\00:13:50.36
Well said.
00:13:50.39\00:13:52.79
You know, as we
discuss this sensitive topic,
00:13:52.83\00:13:56.83
I feel like this is
definitely something that
00:13:56.87\00:13:59.47
people at home
need to know more about.
00:13:59.50\00:14:02.54
More information about, yeah.
00:14:02.57\00:14:04.01
They need more
information on it.
00:14:04.04\00:14:05.37
So you know, if you're at home
00:14:05.41\00:14:07.24
and you want
some more information,
00:14:07.28\00:14:10.45
please visit IntimateClarity.tv.
00:14:10.48\00:14:14.62
We've run out of time,
00:14:14.65\00:14:16.32
and we hope that you
will join us next time
00:14:16.35\00:14:18.99
on Intimate Clarity.
00:14:19.02\00:14:20.36
God bless you.
00:14:20.39\00:14:21.72