The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are cautioned
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this
presentation may be too candid
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for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley,
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and I'm here with
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
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and she is a licensed
professional counselor,
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and today we're
going to discuss a topic
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that is sensitive in nature,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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Jen, what does homosexual be...
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What does the Bible say
about homosexual behavior?
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Yeah, I wanted to spend
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at least one
segment addressing that
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because I'm trying
to live by the Bible,
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I'm trying to be
a follower of Jesus,
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and so I have to
wrestle with things like this,
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moral issues like this,
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even though it's
not my particular issue,
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I help a lot of people,
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and I feel as a
mental health provider,
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and as minister of the gospel,
I should have something to say
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about this
really pressing issue.
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But I have to say I'm
very self-conscious about it,
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I'm worried
about offending people,
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I'm afraid of offending people,
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and I'm afraid of
discouraging people
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that are
experiencing same sex attraction
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because oftentimes when
people start to experience
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same sex attraction
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and they read the
things in the Bible
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about what God says
about homosexuality,
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they personalize it,
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and they think that God
feels that way toward them.
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And they end up in situations
where they are depressed
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and even sometimes suicidal.
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So I never want to contribute
to anything like that.
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At the same time, I think I
have to be fair with the data
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and sexuality is sacred
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and God has
built it a certain way,
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to function it certain way,
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and when we
break those boundaries,
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and compromise that design,
there are consequences to that.
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So I'm walking a
real fine line here.
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There are only
six texts in the Bible
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that really directly
address homosexuality,
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and yet every time
you see it mentioned,
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the Bible is a univocal,
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there are some issues
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that the Bible will
say something on one side
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and then seem to say something
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that kind of,
not contradicts it,
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but complements
it on another side.
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And you can be kind of
ambivalent about something
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'cause you're not quite
sure what the Bible is saying,
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but with homosexuality,
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everything that is said
is what we call univocal.
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It always says the same thing
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and there's
really no affirmation
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for homosexual
behavior in the Bible,
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and there are several texts
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that really
strongly denounce it.
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And so I want to
look at them one by one.
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Okay.
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One that is used,
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and it's called
the clobber text,
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'cause it's one of those
texts that Christians will hit
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gay people over the
head with is the thinking
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and why it's
called the clobber text.
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Well, one that's used that
I don't think should be used
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in the discussion
much at all is Genesis 19,
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the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
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Okay.
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To give the story in brief,
some angels come into town,
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Lot invites them home,
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the men of Sodom believe
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that the angels
are human beings,
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they come to Lot's door,
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they say, "Give those men to us.
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We want to
basically gang rape them."
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Horrible story,
there's more detail than that,
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but that's not dealing
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with consensual monogamous
same sex relationships,
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and that's the
question on the table today
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in church circles.
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Is it okay for people
to engage in same sex,
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monogamous
consensual loving relationships?
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That's clearly not
what's going on in Sodom.
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There, that's gang rape,
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so we're not really dealing
with homosexuality alone there.
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We're dealing with gang rape.
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So I kind of feel like
that one is off the table,
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but then if we go forward,
we find in Leviticus 18:22,
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and Leviticus 20:13,
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two verses that are part of
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what's called the holiness code.
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The holiness code is
the section of the Torah
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that deals in
specific with moral issues
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that I believe
are timeless issues,
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that really coincide
with the Ten Commandments.
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Okay.
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And the reason I say that is
because in the New Testament,
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you remember what the
Christian church was wrestling
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with one of the
laws of Moses to retain
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and which of those
laws to leave behind.
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Yes.
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Because of the new
conference were being required
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to be circumcised.
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And so there was a
big debate about that.
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So they had what was
called the Jerusalem Council
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and we see in Acts 15
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that the result of
the Jerusalem Council
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was that they
retained three things,
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inhibitions on idolatry,
they prohibited idolatry,
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they prohibited
sexual immorality,
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and thirdly the eating of blood.
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So those are the three things,
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they kind of boiled
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the perpetual
aspects of Moses Law
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down to those three things.
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Okay. Okay.
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And go over those
three things again.
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And those are idolatry,
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the sexual immorality,
and the consuming of blood.
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Okay.
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And we see those three things
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really unpacked
in the holiness code.
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So there seems to
be sort of a resonance
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between the holiness
code of Leviticus 17-20
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and the document that came
out of the Jerusalem Council.
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So it seems to be saying
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that these are perpetual
principles that you live by.
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So basically in
Leviticus 18:22 it says,
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"You shall not lie
with a male as with a woman,
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it is an abomination."
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That's pretty straight forward.
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Yeah, I mean, that's
pretty clear cut to the point.
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Leviticus 20:13,
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"If a man lies with a
male as he lies with a woman,
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both of them have
committed an abomination,
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they shall
surely be put to death,
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their blood shall be upon them."
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There's heavy stuff here.
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Yeah. This is heavy stuff.
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And so people that
argue for accepting
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loving consensual monogamous
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homosexual
relationships in church
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will say that this is
not referring to that.
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This is referring to
male cult prostitution
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which was very common
in the ancient near East,
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but you see nothing in the text
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to indicate that that's
what it's talking about.
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No.
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If there was something
in the text that indicated
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that, we could
come to that conclusion.
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Yeah, you see how a
lot of people will try
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and manipulate scripture
and manipulate religion
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or whatever the case may
be to fit their lifestyle
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and their preferences
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rather than
shaping their lifestyle
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and their preferences
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around the solid
principles that are found.
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Let me just say that's
exactly what I'm doing here.
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I am molding my
ideas to God's Word
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rather than thinking,
"I think it's fine to be
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if you're in a
loving consensual..."
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'Cause that's how
my humanity would go.
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I don't like restricting people
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from anything they
want to do to find love.
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This is not how I am.
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But then I look
at the Word of God
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and I have to be honest with it.
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Romans 1:26-27,
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Paul starts out the passage
by mentioning the creation.
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And in the context
of creation, he says,
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"For this reason God
gave them up to vile passions
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for even their women
exchanged the natural use
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for what is against nature."
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Pay attention to that
phrase, "Against nature."
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"Likewise also the men leaving
the natural use of the woman
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burned in their
lust for one another,
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men with men
committing what is shameful
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and receiving in themselves
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the penalty of their
error which was due."
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So that against
nature phrases very telling.
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We're talking about
the context of creation.
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God is saying here's the design
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and what these
individuals are doing
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is against the design,
against nature in that sense
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because what's being said
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is that it's against
their personal nature,
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they're heterosexual normally,
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and they get in
a party situation
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or whatever,
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and they have a
same sex encounter.
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But it's not talking about
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against their individual nature,
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it's talking about
against the natural process,
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the way the God
created the natural world.
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That's the divine design.
That's right, the divine.
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It's not hard to
really come to that conclusion
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when you look at
the body parts involved
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and how they fit,
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it just doesn't work
in the same sex encounter.
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We won't be going into
too much detail about that,
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but let's also talk
about 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10,
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it mentions, effeminate malakoi,
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the word malakoi in the Greek,
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and homosexuals arsenokoites
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along with another
list of people of lifestyles
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that lead people to be
left out of the Kingdom.
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And those words refer to
the soft effeminate partner
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in a same sex relationship,
malakois, and arsenokoites,
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it simply means male bed,
it's talking about sleeping,
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a male sleeping with a male.
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There are a lot of arguments
about what these words mean,
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some people claim
that they mean pederasty,
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pederasty was common in
Greek and Roman culture,
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also in certain Asian cultures,
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pederasty is man-boy
love, and it was common that,
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you know, for instance in Rome,
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educated affluent men
would have male concubines,
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and it would be, you
know, a very close relationship.
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There's all kinds
of layers of that,
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but it was
common in Roman culture,
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and really very accepted,
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but that doesn't seem to
be what this is talking about.
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The word arsenokoites
means males sleeping with males,
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not men sleeping
with boys necessarily.
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So I want to end
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with a different thought though,
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gets clear as the Bible is
in its regard of homosexuals
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or gay behaviors,
it enlists us to love.
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And I become saddened
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when I see that
Christians are so caught up
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in really countering
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the political
agenda of the left,
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that they end up
being so invested
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in the political agenda,
00:09:45.78\00:09:47.15
this issue
becomes so politicized
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that they shed more tears
00:09:49.68\00:09:51.39
about the
legalization of gay marriage
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than they shed
over the gay neighbors
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that don't know Jesus,
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the gay neighbors that
feel hated by Christians.
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We need to shed tears over that.
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And just as faithful
as we are to Scripture,
00:10:07.64\00:10:10.01
we need to be faithful to
the other parts of Scripture
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that say reach out and love
00:10:13.01\00:10:14.81
to people that are
different than you.
00:10:14.84\00:10:16.18
And I think also part
of our maturity in Christ
00:10:16.21\00:10:19.38
is not to make
enemies out of people
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that think differently
about this issue than we think
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and to be willing
and secure enough in God
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to where we're
willing to be challenged
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and to think this through
again and again and again.
00:10:33.13\00:10:36.70
Yeah, I think that it's
important to realize that,
00:10:36.73\00:10:39.87
you know, Jesus hates...
00:10:39.90\00:10:42.30
God hates the sin
but not the sinner.
00:10:42.34\00:10:46.07
And so, you know,
00:10:46.11\00:10:47.64
there we have
to love the person,
00:10:47.68\00:10:51.11
we may not condone the behavior,
00:10:51.15\00:10:52.71
but we love the person.
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And the fact
that God can give you
00:10:54.95\00:10:57.12
the victory over
anything that you're struggling
00:10:57.15\00:11:00.26
that goes against His word.
00:11:00.29\00:11:02.02
If it's some kind of
sin, transgression of His law,
00:11:02.06\00:11:05.79
then He can help you
get the victory over that.
00:11:05.83\00:11:09.06
The very head of the
passage that I was reading from
00:11:09.10\00:11:11.53
in Romans 1 starts in
verse 18, and it says,
00:11:11.57\00:11:14.24
"The wrath of God is
revealed against all ungodliness
00:11:14.27\00:11:18.51
and unrighteousness of men."
00:11:18.54\00:11:20.51
But it doesn't
say the wrath of God
00:11:20.54\00:11:21.88
is revealed against the men.
00:11:21.91\00:11:23.88
It's revealed
against their ungodliness
00:11:23.91\00:11:26.11
and unrighteousness.
00:11:26.15\00:11:27.48
God is holy.
00:11:27.52\00:11:28.85
He cannot help but
have, can I call it,
00:11:28.88\00:11:31.02
a visceral response,
00:11:31.05\00:11:32.39
an intense
response to sin in any form
00:11:32.42\00:11:35.16
because He knows the
violation of His design
00:11:35.19\00:11:37.99
will lead to the
destruction of the very beings
00:11:38.03\00:11:40.70
for whom He laid down his life.
00:11:40.73\00:11:42.06
Yes.
00:11:42.10\00:11:43.43
So God, by his very
nature, can't help but be angry
00:11:43.47\00:11:45.73
against any kind of
violation of His design
00:11:45.77\00:11:48.54
which upholds life,
00:11:48.57\00:11:49.90
but it's against the
violation of the design
00:11:49.94\00:11:52.37
and not the people
that are violating it.
00:11:52.41\00:11:55.04
It's God's grand
purpose in the world today
00:11:55.08\00:11:57.85
is to separate sin from sinners
00:11:57.88\00:11:59.91
so that He can
ultimately destroy the sin
00:11:59.95\00:12:02.95
and preserve and save
the sinners for eternity.
00:12:02.98\00:12:06.45
And we need to find a
way to communicate that
00:12:06.49\00:12:10.13
to our gay neighbors,
00:12:10.16\00:12:12.83
to our affirming brothers
and sisters in the church,
00:12:12.86\00:12:16.43
people that believe it's okay
00:12:16.46\00:12:18.40
even though we feel
kind of at odds with them
00:12:18.43\00:12:20.34
in the way we
interpret the scriptures,
00:12:20.37\00:12:22.67
we need to not enter
into unnecessary debate
00:12:22.70\00:12:26.01
over it or get nasty,
like stay off of Facebook
00:12:26.04\00:12:29.78
when you're talking
about stuff like this
00:12:29.81\00:12:31.35
'cause it's only going
to go down that rabbit hole,
00:12:31.38\00:12:33.35
if you know what I mean.
00:12:33.38\00:12:34.72
And just maintain our dignity
and our Christ-like spirit
00:12:34.75\00:12:37.52
in discussing these things
00:12:37.55\00:12:38.89
'cause it's only
going to get hotter.
00:12:38.92\00:12:40.69
This issue is heating up. It is.
00:12:40.72\00:12:42.82
And I mean, you see it being,
00:12:42.86\00:12:44.86
you know, the Bible says
train up a child the way he go.
00:12:44.89\00:12:47.40
And when he grows old,
he won't depart from you.
00:12:47.43\00:12:49.00
Well, you see people trying
to train these children up
00:12:49.03\00:12:51.90
in sexual immorality
00:12:51.93\00:12:53.74
and all kinds of
different things.
00:12:53.77\00:12:56.57
The enemy is getting to children
00:12:56.60\00:12:57.94
at younger and younger
ages and indoctrinating them
00:12:57.97\00:13:02.51
in, you know,
00:13:02.54\00:13:03.88
things that are
not in the Word of God,
00:13:03.91\00:13:06.08
but what do we expect
00:13:06.11\00:13:07.82
from public school for instance?
00:13:07.85\00:13:09.85
They don't have the grounding,
00:13:09.88\00:13:11.49
they don't have the
guidance of the Word of God,
00:13:11.52\00:13:13.12
so we really can't
expect anything different,
00:13:13.15\00:13:15.32
but what we can expect
is that some of those people
00:13:15.36\00:13:17.83
will be hungry
for something better.
00:13:17.86\00:13:19.19
Yeah.
00:13:19.23\00:13:20.56
And if we're so busy
being their political enemies,
00:13:20.60\00:13:22.10
we won't be able
to pick up those cues
00:13:22.13\00:13:23.87
and really minister to
them in an effective way
00:13:23.90\00:13:26.40
when they're ready to receive
what God has to say to them.
00:13:26.43\00:13:29.67
Yeah, so we need to
love, first and foremost, love,
00:13:29.70\00:13:33.14
and that love
leads us to speak out
00:13:33.17\00:13:34.94
against things that
are genuinely harmful,
00:13:34.98\00:13:37.15
it does.
00:13:37.18\00:13:38.51
But it also leads us to love
and have affection for people
00:13:38.55\00:13:41.75
in a very real and in a
way that they can sense.
00:13:41.78\00:13:45.62
Yeah. Challenging.
00:13:45.65\00:13:46.99
And it's
definitely a delicate topic,
00:13:47.02\00:13:49.12
it's sensitive.
00:13:49.16\00:13:50.49
Do we ever talk about
anything but delicate topics?
00:13:50.53\00:13:53.13
I don't think so.
No, I don't think we do.
00:13:53.16\00:13:56.56
Dude, I hope you sleep tonight,
I don't know if I'm going to...
00:13:56.60\00:14:00.04
Yeah. Well, we shall see.
00:14:00.07\00:14:02.27
Yes, we shall. Yes, absolutely.
00:14:02.30\00:14:04.04
Well, it's been a
pleasure once again.
00:14:04.07\00:14:05.97
I can't believe our
time is just about up.
00:14:06.01\00:14:08.68
Can you believe it?
00:14:08.71\00:14:10.08
Well, if you
want more information,
00:14:10.11\00:14:11.98
please go to IntimateClarity.tv
and check out the website,
00:14:12.01\00:14:16.08
check out resources,
00:14:16.12\00:14:17.45
and make sure that
you join us next time
00:14:17.49\00:14:19.29
on another episode
of Intimate Clarity.
00:14:19.32\00:14:21.46