The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are cautioned
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this
presentation may be too candid
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for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley,
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and here with me is
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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She is a licensed
professional counselor.
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And today, we're going to be
discussing a sensitive topic,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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Jen, is same sex attraction
evidence that a person is gay?
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That's a really good question,
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and I think you
probably think it is, right?
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I would say so, yeah.
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That's the way,
yeah, you've always felt.
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Well, the reality
is not necessarily.
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Of course there's
a gamut, you know,
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and we can't say one thing
for every person's experience,
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but many people
experience same sex attraction.
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Let me blow your mind
with a statistic in one study,
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it says that up to 60%...
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This is just one study,
and you know how research is,
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so please don't, you know,
I shared this with my husband,
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he like had a
visceral rage response.
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Sixty percent boys.
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Sixty percent of
pre-adolescent boys
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engage at some point
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in some kind of
same sex activity.
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Sixty percent.
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Yeah, yeah, you're freaking
out like my husband did.
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Yeah, I'm freaking
out. That means like 40%...
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Are the ones that don't. Wow.
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Yeah, but the thing is that
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whether the 60 is
correct or not, it may not be,
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I've read other
pieces that say it's 37%,
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you know, it's just different.
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That's a high percentage.
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Research is not
always particularly accurate.
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It can, you know, anyway,
so don't bank too much on that,
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but believe me,
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and I'm speaking
as a counselor here
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that talks to people about
their stories all the time,
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a lot of people
have same sex encounters,
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particularly in boys.
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Wow.
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You know, pre-adolescent boys
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are wildly experimental sexually
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and if they
don't have any guidance
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and any parental supervision,
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they get into
all kinds of things.
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And so having a
same sex encounter
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or even same sex attraction
does not necessarily mean
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that you are
homosexually oriented.
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There's an
expression these days,
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it's very popular in
the politically correct set
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if I can say it that way.
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Okay.
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That sexuality is fluid,
and we love that statement
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because, you know, we want
to be able to wake up tomorrow,
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and if I feel like
being a man tomorrow,
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I can be a man or
if I feel like having,
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you know, a
relationship with a unicorn,
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I can have a
relationship with a unicorn.
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Sexuality is fluid, you
know, whatever says goes,
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there's no boundaries,
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this is said often in
order to deny the idea
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that there's any kind of form
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or structure to human sexuality,
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but...
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Yeah, I mean
that's crazy, like...
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And then when
you look at Satan...
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Yeah.
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Like, his whole
thing is do as thou wilt,
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whatever you want, do it.
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You know, like,
that's Satan's philosophy.
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Okay.
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But I would say that
there's an element of truth
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to sexuality is fluid.
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Okay.
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I don't think
it's fluid in the sense
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that it's morally okay to
do anything you want to do,
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but I do think
that we will acclimate
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to things that we do,
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so we can develop an
appetite through participation.
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By beholding we
become changed. Yes.
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And by
participating we become changed.
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So in that sense
sexuality is fluid.
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So this is what's
said over and over again
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to give people license
in that set, so to speak,
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but then you imply
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that someone who
is homosexual or gay
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could maybe be fluid enough
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to be attracted
to the opposite sex
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and you're told
you're a Nazi, you know,
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so there's like
inconsistency there.
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That sounds like
a double standard.
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It is. It's not, yeah.
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It's extremely
inconsistent. Yeah.
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So I believe that
sexuality is fluid
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in the sense that we will
adapt to what we participate in
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and often develop an appetite
for the thing that we do.
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And that can work
for good or for evil.
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This is Alfred Kinsey.
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He's the first sexologist
in the field of psychology.
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He spoke, worked back
in the 1900s, and he said,
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"The histories
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which have been
available in the present study
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make it apparent
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that the
heterosexuality or homosexuality
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of many individuals is not
an all or nothing proposition."
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That was way
back in the mid 1900s.
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And I agree with
him. Sometimes it is.
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I was born heterosexual.
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I was always,
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you know, I've been
that way my whole life.
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I'm pretty much dyed
in the wool so to speak,
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and I assume that you are
dyed in the wool heterosexual.
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Yes, yes.
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And there are people I believe
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that are pretty
much same sex attracted
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from as early as
they can remember.
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And in that sense, we could say
they're homosexually oriented,
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but I think there's a
whole gamut of people in between
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that can have varying
degrees of flexibility
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on these issues.
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And so I just
propose that we accept that,
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"Yeah, sexuality by and
large is a fluid thing."
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So there are various things
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that can predispose us
to same sex attraction,
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I'd like to cover some of those.
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Okay.
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There are, I
believe, biological factors,
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there's a big discussion
in the scientific world today
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about whether
there's a gay gene or not.
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And I'll try to flesh
this out real quickly,
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the Christian opponents
of the homosexual lifestyle
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will often say, "Well, no.
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There can't be anything genetic
influencing homosexuality.
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It has to be your choice
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because if you
were born that way,
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then that means
God made you flawed
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and God makes
everything perfect."
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Well, I don't think
that's a complete view
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of human nature.
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God says we're made
perfect and then we fell.
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Yeah.
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And all kinds of deviancies
and maladaptive tendencies
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came into human
experience at that time,
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so just the fact that
you have an inclination
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does not mean that God
baptizes that inclination.
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So I believe people can be born
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with
predispositions towards sin,
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and that doesn't mean
that they have an excuse
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to commit that sin.
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Yeah, if you're born,
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you know, predisposed
to being an alcoholic
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or whatever the case may be,
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it doesn't mean
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that you have to
venture down that path.
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That's right.
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My dad had a terrible temper,
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I believe I received the
genetics of his bad temper,
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and I also watched him blow
up, you know, in my childhood,
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and I learned the lesson
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that in order to get
control of a situation
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that makes me uncomfortable,
I blow up, that's what I do.
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And I learned that from him
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and then I practiced it
for a while in my adult life,
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and it took some real prayer
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and striving
with the Holy Spirit
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to try to
understand how to change that,
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but God was able to change that,
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and I don't blow up at
my husband like I used to,
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thank God.
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You can ask him
about that if you want to.
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But here are some of the...
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I still get a little
cheeky once in a while,
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but it's not as
bad as it used to be.
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So here's some of the
things that predispose
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to same sex attraction,
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there are biological factors.
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There's something called
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the fraternal birth order effect
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or the older brother effect.
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Okay, break that down.
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What is that? Okay.
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Fraternal birth order
effect or older brother effect
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is simply that with each
subsequent male a woman bears,
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there's a higher likelihood
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that that male will
be same sex attracted.
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That's right.
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They think, possibly,
they don't really know why,
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but they think possibly
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it's because she
creates certain antibodies
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in bearing a male fetus.
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Okay.
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That then affect a future
fetus in a way that feminizes
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or somehow interrupts the
sex differentiation process.
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So there could be
some biological factors.
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And that really
draws our hearts out
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to people that have
same sex attraction.
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They may have
come by very honestly
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and in fact I
think many of them do.
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I don't think we lose
anything from admitting that.
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So there's that
fraternal birth order effect,
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and by the way
they've controlled
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for developmental process
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so that means that things like
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a boy being sexually
abused by his older brothers,
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they've controlled
for all those variables,
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and so they're pretty sure
that it's a biological effect.
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Another thing that can
lead to same sex attraction
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is same sex abuse in childhood.
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It can, doesn't always,
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but it can eroticize
same sex relationships.
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Also,
maltreatment in early childhood
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is heavily correlated
with same sex attraction,
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people that are abused.
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Why is that?
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I'm not sure the reasons why,
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I think it's an
attempt to numb pain probably
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and that there's also
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maybe an element of
wanting to reject authority,
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because authority harmed
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and then rejection of authority
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could lead to just experimenting
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with all kinds of
behaviors, I don't know.
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So do you think is
that, you know, if the abuser,
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let's say, it's
a guy in the house
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or whatever, and then
the abuser wasn't the father,
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then the man you would think,
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the man would
become gay possibly or...
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The child that abused?
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Possibly, I
mean, I'm saying that
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aside from being abused
by a same sex individual
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and eroticizing a
same sex relationship,
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besides that,
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just abuse in the home
or maltreatment in the home
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is correlated with
same sex attraction.
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Just generally when you
have a chaotic home life
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or an abusive home environment,
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you're going to have
higher levels of people
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with same sex attraction.
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We don't know exactly why.
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It could be a host of reasons,
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but one of the things
that Nicole Parker brings out,
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and she's done a paper
on homosexual lifestyle,
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and she's correlated
difficulty resolving conflict
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with homosexual lifestyle.
00:10:02.73\00:10:04.67
So it could be
that people grow up
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in these chaotic environments
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and they attempt this lifestyle
as a way of coping with it.
00:10:08.37\00:10:12.74
In any case, I think we
need to have a lot of compassion
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for people that struggle
with same sex attraction
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and still I don't think
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the best solution is
to live in that lifestyle,
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in those behaviors, yeah.
00:10:24.72\00:10:26.76
And, you know,
what we're asking,
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what we're asking of
people with same sex attraction,
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and some of them
have been that way
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from the time they can remember
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and can't even
conceive of being anything else.
00:10:35.16\00:10:38.23
What we're asking of
them, what we're saying to them,
00:10:38.27\00:10:41.64
and what I think the
Bible is saying to them
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is follow Jesus and be celibate.
00:10:43.24\00:10:47.21
And we need to be
very sensitive to that
00:10:47.24\00:10:49.11
because we haven't
put that on ourselves.
00:10:49.14\00:10:51.81
Now I do believe that
there is no temptation taken
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such as is common to man.
00:10:54.75\00:10:56.89
In other words, we
all have temptations
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and they're all similar,
00:10:58.69\00:11:00.46
but I haven't had
to live as a celibate.
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So I want to be extra sensitive.
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And I want to say this too
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that I think
gay people in church
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have to depend more
on the church family.
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If they're going to
lead that celibate life
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and not have a
family of their own,
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they're going to have to
lean more on the church family
00:11:16.47\00:11:19.34
to get their
emotional needs met.
00:11:19.37\00:11:21.31
And emotional
needs are very real.
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We can't deny them.
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They're going to lean more
heavily on the church family.
00:11:25.18\00:11:27.92
And that means that we
that are in biological families
00:11:27.95\00:11:30.49
need to be extra compassionate
00:11:30.52\00:11:32.42
and really cultivate a
healthy environment for singles.
00:11:32.45\00:11:37.33
You know,
sometimes we make it seem
00:11:37.36\00:11:38.69
like the only way to be
normal is to be married.
00:11:38.73\00:11:40.90
And what does that
say to single people?
00:11:40.93\00:11:42.76
There will be
single people in church,
00:11:42.80\00:11:44.17
they will not have a partner,
00:11:44.20\00:11:45.70
and we want them to
have that family experience
00:11:45.73\00:11:47.74
where they can get
their emotional needs met
00:11:47.77\00:11:49.27
in the family of God
00:11:49.30\00:11:50.87
so they're not tempted
to go to the local gay bar
00:11:50.91\00:11:53.21
and get their
emotional needs met there.
00:11:53.24\00:11:55.81
And so we want to
cultivate that in church,
00:11:55.84\00:11:57.61
and that means
really pouring ourselves out
00:11:57.65\00:12:00.05
for people in church,
00:12:00.08\00:12:01.42
and not just
going home after church,
00:12:01.45\00:12:02.78
and taking a
nap, lay activities.
00:12:02.82\00:12:04.79
Yeah.
00:12:04.82\00:12:06.15
And then just being all
about us in our own people,
00:12:06.19\00:12:07.89
you know...
00:12:07.92\00:12:09.26
Yeah, being an active member
in the church, reaching out,
00:12:09.29\00:12:12.63
loving, pouring
out love on individuals
00:12:12.66\00:12:15.76
when they come visit the church,
00:12:15.80\00:12:18.03
and not judging on the
outward appearance per se.
00:12:18.07\00:12:21.60
That's right.
00:12:21.64\00:12:22.97
You know, I
think of the council,
00:12:23.00\00:12:24.34
I believe it is Paul's writings,
00:12:24.37\00:12:26.34
I don't remember
exactly where, but he says,
00:12:26.37\00:12:28.31
"Treat older women as mothers,
younger women as sisters..."
00:12:28.34\00:12:32.18
Then I think,
"Older men as fathers."
00:12:32.21\00:12:34.08
And then he
says, "In all purity."
00:12:34.12\00:12:36.05
So we are to have a
family-like relationship
00:12:36.08\00:12:39.05
with the boundaries
00:12:39.09\00:12:40.42
that God placed
over human sexuality
00:12:40.46\00:12:43.53
so that our love is pure,
00:12:43.56\00:12:45.09
but it needs to be a
very intense satisfying love
00:12:45.13\00:12:48.06
in the body of Christ.
00:12:48.10\00:12:49.43
We should not be content
00:12:49.46\00:12:51.07
with just
superficial relationships,
00:12:51.10\00:12:53.03
it's not going to do it.
00:12:53.07\00:12:54.40
And if we're going to ask
homosexually oriented people
00:12:54.44\00:12:57.74
or people with
same sex attraction
00:12:57.77\00:13:00.18
to give up on
having a partner for life
00:13:00.21\00:13:04.58
and then not offer them
anything to replace that,
00:13:04.61\00:13:07.38
not offer them warmth of
fellowship to replace that,
00:13:07.42\00:13:09.98
what are we saying to them?
00:13:10.02\00:13:11.49
That's really kind of cruel.
00:13:11.52\00:13:12.85
So we need to provide
that something better.
00:13:12.89\00:13:15.36
You know, God doesn't
just take away something bad,
00:13:15.39\00:13:17.86
He gives us something better.
00:13:17.89\00:13:19.63
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:13:19.66\00:13:21.00
Man, this is... It's
an intense discussion.
00:13:21.03\00:13:22.76
Interesting discussion. Yeah.
00:13:22.80\00:13:24.87
I still can't get past that 60%,
00:13:24.90\00:13:27.30
I'm still stuck on that.
00:13:27.34\00:13:28.67
That 60% is a big number.
00:13:28.70\00:13:31.21
But you've learned
something here, haven't you?
00:13:31.24\00:13:32.81
You've learned that
just because someone has
00:13:32.84\00:13:36.08
one same sex
encounter or same sex attraction
00:13:36.11\00:13:40.82
doesn't mean that they are gay.
00:13:40.85\00:13:42.95
It's not an all or
nothing proposition.
00:13:42.98\00:13:45.35
There are some that may
never experience anything else,
00:13:45.39\00:13:48.46
but there are quite
a few that are flexible
00:13:48.49\00:13:50.16
and can go either way.
00:13:50.19\00:13:51.53
And to
pigeonhole them as being gay
00:13:51.56\00:13:54.90
when maybe they
were just experimenting
00:13:54.93\00:13:56.87
is a mistake.
00:13:56.90\00:13:58.23
Yeah.
00:13:58.27\00:13:59.60
Wow, you have so
much excellent content.
00:13:59.63\00:14:03.54
And I can't believe that
our time is just about up.
00:14:03.57\00:14:05.97
Yeah.
00:14:06.01\00:14:07.34
It just goes by too fast. Yeah.
00:14:07.38\00:14:09.18
For more information
00:14:09.21\00:14:10.98
make sure that you
go to IntimateClarity.tv
00:14:11.01\00:14:14.62
where you'll be
able to access resources
00:14:14.65\00:14:17.89
that will help you
as you grow in Christ.
00:14:17.92\00:14:20.86
God bless.
00:14:20.89\00:14:22.22