The following program discusses sensitive issues 00:00:01.36\00:00:03.13 related to sexuality. 00:00:03.16\00:00:05.00 Parents are cautioned 00:00:05.03\00:00:06.37 this presentation may be too candid 00:00:06.40\00:00:08.60 for younger audiences. 00:00:08.64\00:00:10.17 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. 00:00:31.83\00:00:33.26 I'm Jason Bradley, 00:00:33.29\00:00:34.63 and here with me is Jennifer Jill Schwirzer. 00:00:34.66\00:00:37.17 She is a licensed professional counselor. 00:00:37.20\00:00:40.10 And today, we're going to be discussing a sensitive topic, 00:00:40.14\00:00:43.71 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:00:43.74\00:00:46.74 Jen, is same sex attraction evidence that a person is gay? 00:00:46.78\00:00:50.85 That's a really good question, 00:00:50.88\00:00:52.71 and I think you probably think it is, right? 00:00:52.75\00:00:55.88 I would say so, yeah. 00:00:55.92\00:00:57.25 That's the way, yeah, you've always felt. 00:00:57.29\00:00:58.75 Well, the reality is not necessarily. 00:00:58.79\00:01:01.89 Of course there's a gamut, you know, 00:01:01.92\00:01:03.63 and we can't say one thing for every person's experience, 00:01:03.66\00:01:06.49 but many people experience same sex attraction. 00:01:06.53\00:01:11.70 Let me blow your mind with a statistic in one study, 00:01:11.73\00:01:15.00 it says that up to 60%... 00:01:15.04\00:01:16.77 This is just one study, and you know how research is, 00:01:16.81\00:01:19.04 so please don't, you know, I shared this with my husband, 00:01:19.07\00:01:21.54 he like had a visceral rage response. 00:01:21.58\00:01:25.58 Sixty percent boys. 00:01:25.61\00:01:26.95 Sixty percent of pre-adolescent boys 00:01:26.98\00:01:30.35 engage at some point 00:01:30.39\00:01:31.72 in some kind of same sex activity. 00:01:31.75\00:01:33.25 Sixty percent. 00:01:33.29\00:01:34.62 Yeah, yeah, you're freaking out like my husband did. 00:01:34.66\00:01:35.99 Yeah, I'm freaking out. That means like 40%... 00:01:36.02\00:01:39.59 Are the ones that don't. Wow. 00:01:39.63\00:01:42.06 Yeah, but the thing is that 00:01:42.10\00:01:44.97 whether the 60 is correct or not, it may not be, 00:01:45.00\00:01:47.04 I've read other pieces that say it's 37%, 00:01:47.07\00:01:49.50 you know, it's just different. 00:01:49.54\00:01:51.51 That's a high percentage. 00:01:51.54\00:01:52.87 Research is not always particularly accurate. 00:01:52.91\00:01:56.31 It can, you know, anyway, so don't bank too much on that, 00:01:56.34\00:01:59.38 but believe me, 00:01:59.41\00:02:01.62 and I'm speaking as a counselor here 00:02:01.65\00:02:03.08 that talks to people about their stories all the time, 00:02:03.12\00:02:05.02 a lot of people have same sex encounters, 00:02:05.05\00:02:06.89 particularly in boys. 00:02:06.92\00:02:08.26 Wow. 00:02:08.29\00:02:09.62 You know, pre-adolescent boys 00:02:09.66\00:02:10.99 are wildly experimental sexually 00:02:11.03\00:02:12.89 and if they don't have any guidance 00:02:12.93\00:02:14.26 and any parental supervision, 00:02:14.30\00:02:15.63 they get into all kinds of things. 00:02:15.66\00:02:17.13 And so having a same sex encounter 00:02:17.17\00:02:19.67 or even same sex attraction does not necessarily mean 00:02:19.70\00:02:25.34 that you are homosexually oriented. 00:02:25.37\00:02:29.44 There's an expression these days, 00:02:29.48\00:02:31.38 it's very popular in the politically correct set 00:02:31.41\00:02:35.52 if I can say it that way. 00:02:35.55\00:02:36.89 Okay. 00:02:36.92\00:02:38.25 That sexuality is fluid, and we love that statement 00:02:38.29\00:02:41.22 because, you know, we want to be able to wake up tomorrow, 00:02:41.26\00:02:44.59 and if I feel like being a man tomorrow, 00:02:44.63\00:02:46.39 I can be a man or if I feel like having, 00:02:46.43\00:02:48.33 you know, a relationship with a unicorn, 00:02:48.36\00:02:50.50 I can have a relationship with a unicorn. 00:02:50.53\00:02:52.37 Sexuality is fluid, you know, whatever says goes, 00:02:52.40\00:02:54.57 there's no boundaries, 00:02:54.60\00:02:56.20 this is said often in order to deny the idea 00:02:56.24\00:03:00.14 that there's any kind of form 00:03:00.18\00:03:01.51 or structure to human sexuality, 00:03:01.54\00:03:03.28 but... 00:03:03.31\00:03:04.65 Yeah, I mean that's crazy, like... 00:03:04.68\00:03:06.82 And then when you look at Satan... 00:03:06.85\00:03:08.18 Yeah. 00:03:08.22\00:03:09.55 Like, his whole thing is do as thou wilt, 00:03:09.58\00:03:12.09 whatever you want, do it. 00:03:12.12\00:03:13.46 You know, like, that's Satan's philosophy. 00:03:13.49\00:03:15.52 Okay. 00:03:15.56\00:03:16.89 But I would say that there's an element of truth 00:03:16.93\00:03:18.99 to sexuality is fluid. 00:03:19.03\00:03:20.36 Okay. 00:03:20.40\00:03:21.73 I don't think it's fluid in the sense 00:03:21.76\00:03:23.10 that it's morally okay to do anything you want to do, 00:03:23.13\00:03:25.70 but I do think that we will acclimate 00:03:25.73\00:03:28.07 to things that we do, 00:03:28.10\00:03:30.11 so we can develop an appetite through participation. 00:03:30.14\00:03:33.58 By beholding we become changed. Yes. 00:03:33.61\00:03:35.54 And by participating we become changed. 00:03:35.58\00:03:37.35 So in that sense sexuality is fluid. 00:03:37.38\00:03:40.22 So this is what's said over and over again 00:03:40.25\00:03:42.45 to give people license in that set, so to speak, 00:03:42.48\00:03:46.76 but then you imply 00:03:46.79\00:03:48.79 that someone who is homosexual or gay 00:03:48.82\00:03:51.86 could maybe be fluid enough 00:03:51.89\00:03:53.90 to be attracted to the opposite sex 00:03:53.93\00:03:56.33 and you're told you're a Nazi, you know, 00:03:56.36\00:03:58.73 so there's like inconsistency there. 00:03:58.77\00:04:00.30 That sounds like a double standard. 00:04:00.34\00:04:02.14 It is. It's not, yeah. 00:04:02.17\00:04:03.87 It's extremely inconsistent. Yeah. 00:04:03.91\00:04:05.57 So I believe that sexuality is fluid 00:04:05.61\00:04:07.44 in the sense that we will adapt to what we participate in 00:04:07.48\00:04:10.98 and often develop an appetite for the thing that we do. 00:04:11.01\00:04:14.65 And that can work for good or for evil. 00:04:14.68\00:04:17.35 This is Alfred Kinsey. 00:04:17.39\00:04:18.72 He's the first sexologist in the field of psychology. 00:04:18.75\00:04:21.69 He spoke, worked back in the 1900s, and he said, 00:04:21.72\00:04:25.96 "The histories 00:04:25.99\00:04:27.33 which have been available in the present study 00:04:27.36\00:04:30.47 make it apparent 00:04:30.50\00:04:32.10 that the heterosexuality or homosexuality 00:04:32.13\00:04:34.87 of many individuals is not an all or nothing proposition." 00:04:34.90\00:04:40.08 That was way back in the mid 1900s. 00:04:40.11\00:04:42.38 And I agree with him. Sometimes it is. 00:04:42.41\00:04:45.38 I was born heterosexual. 00:04:45.41\00:04:48.35 I was always, 00:04:48.38\00:04:50.12 you know, I've been that way my whole life. 00:04:50.15\00:04:51.65 I'm pretty much dyed in the wool so to speak, 00:04:51.69\00:04:53.39 and I assume that you are dyed in the wool heterosexual. 00:04:53.42\00:04:55.62 Yes, yes. 00:04:55.66\00:04:57.66 And there are people I believe 00:04:57.69\00:04:59.73 that are pretty much same sex attracted 00:04:59.76\00:05:03.93 from as early as they can remember. 00:05:03.97\00:05:05.80 And in that sense, we could say they're homosexually oriented, 00:05:05.83\00:05:09.47 but I think there's a whole gamut of people in between 00:05:09.50\00:05:12.34 that can have varying degrees of flexibility 00:05:12.37\00:05:14.78 on these issues. 00:05:14.81\00:05:16.24 And so I just propose that we accept that, 00:05:16.28\00:05:19.45 "Yeah, sexuality by and large is a fluid thing." 00:05:19.48\00:05:24.05 So there are various things 00:05:24.09\00:05:25.42 that can predispose us to same sex attraction, 00:05:25.45\00:05:27.66 I'd like to cover some of those. 00:05:27.69\00:05:29.32 Okay. 00:05:29.36\00:05:30.69 There are, I believe, biological factors, 00:05:30.73\00:05:32.99 there's a big discussion in the scientific world today 00:05:33.03\00:05:36.26 about whether there's a gay gene or not. 00:05:36.30\00:05:39.97 And I'll try to flesh this out real quickly, 00:05:40.00\00:05:42.44 the Christian opponents of the homosexual lifestyle 00:05:42.47\00:05:45.51 will often say, "Well, no. 00:05:45.54\00:05:46.88 There can't be anything genetic influencing homosexuality. 00:05:46.91\00:05:50.11 It has to be your choice 00:05:50.15\00:05:51.48 because if you were born that way, 00:05:51.51\00:05:53.75 then that means God made you flawed 00:05:53.78\00:05:55.65 and God makes everything perfect." 00:05:55.68\00:05:57.02 Well, I don't think that's a complete view 00:05:57.05\00:05:58.62 of human nature. 00:05:58.65\00:06:00.62 God says we're made perfect and then we fell. 00:06:00.66\00:06:02.72 Yeah. 00:06:02.76\00:06:04.09 And all kinds of deviancies and maladaptive tendencies 00:06:04.13\00:06:07.60 came into human experience at that time, 00:06:07.63\00:06:09.83 so just the fact that you have an inclination 00:06:09.86\00:06:13.87 does not mean that God baptizes that inclination. 00:06:13.90\00:06:17.57 So I believe people can be born 00:06:17.61\00:06:19.41 with predispositions towards sin, 00:06:19.44\00:06:21.98 and that doesn't mean that they have an excuse 00:06:22.01\00:06:24.18 to commit that sin. 00:06:24.21\00:06:25.55 Yeah, if you're born, 00:06:25.58\00:06:28.25 you know, predisposed to being an alcoholic 00:06:28.28\00:06:31.09 or whatever the case may be, 00:06:31.12\00:06:32.45 it doesn't mean 00:06:32.49\00:06:33.82 that you have to venture down that path. 00:06:33.86\00:06:35.19 That's right. 00:06:35.22\00:06:36.56 My dad had a terrible temper, 00:06:36.59\00:06:37.93 I believe I received the genetics of his bad temper, 00:06:37.96\00:06:40.70 and I also watched him blow up, you know, in my childhood, 00:06:40.73\00:06:43.37 and I learned the lesson 00:06:43.40\00:06:44.73 that in order to get control of a situation 00:06:44.77\00:06:46.80 that makes me uncomfortable, I blow up, that's what I do. 00:06:46.84\00:06:49.84 And I learned that from him 00:06:49.87\00:06:51.21 and then I practiced it for a while in my adult life, 00:06:51.24\00:06:53.07 and it took some real prayer 00:06:53.11\00:06:55.14 and striving with the Holy Spirit 00:06:55.18\00:06:57.01 to try to understand how to change that, 00:06:57.05\00:06:58.91 but God was able to change that, 00:06:58.95\00:07:00.55 and I don't blow up at my husband like I used to, 00:07:00.58\00:07:02.22 thank God. 00:07:02.25\00:07:03.59 You can ask him about that if you want to. 00:07:03.62\00:07:05.32 But here are some of the... 00:07:05.35\00:07:07.16 I still get a little cheeky once in a while, 00:07:07.19\00:07:08.52 but it's not as bad as it used to be. 00:07:08.56\00:07:09.96 So here's some of the things that predispose 00:07:09.99\00:07:11.66 to same sex attraction, 00:07:11.69\00:07:13.03 there are biological factors. 00:07:13.06\00:07:14.86 There's something called 00:07:14.90\00:07:16.23 the fraternal birth order effect 00:07:16.26\00:07:18.40 or the older brother effect. 00:07:18.43\00:07:20.77 Okay, break that down. 00:07:20.80\00:07:22.14 What is that? Okay. 00:07:22.17\00:07:23.51 Fraternal birth order effect or older brother effect 00:07:23.54\00:07:25.61 is simply that with each subsequent male a woman bears, 00:07:25.64\00:07:31.18 there's a higher likelihood 00:07:31.21\00:07:33.48 that that male will be same sex attracted. 00:07:33.52\00:07:37.85 That's right. 00:07:37.89\00:07:39.69 They think, possibly, they don't really know why, 00:07:39.72\00:07:42.22 but they think possibly 00:07:42.26\00:07:43.59 it's because she creates certain antibodies 00:07:43.63\00:07:45.99 in bearing a male fetus. 00:07:46.03\00:07:47.86 Okay. 00:07:47.90\00:07:49.23 That then affect a future fetus in a way that feminizes 00:07:49.26\00:07:52.73 or somehow interrupts the sex differentiation process. 00:07:52.77\00:07:56.17 So there could be some biological factors. 00:07:56.20\00:07:59.41 And that really draws our hearts out 00:07:59.44\00:08:01.38 to people that have same sex attraction. 00:08:01.41\00:08:04.05 They may have come by very honestly 00:08:04.08\00:08:05.98 and in fact I think many of them do. 00:08:06.01\00:08:08.32 I don't think we lose anything from admitting that. 00:08:08.35\00:08:11.75 So there's that fraternal birth order effect, 00:08:11.79\00:08:13.59 and by the way they've controlled 00:08:13.62\00:08:15.49 for developmental process 00:08:15.52\00:08:16.99 so that means that things like 00:08:17.03\00:08:19.06 a boy being sexually abused by his older brothers, 00:08:19.09\00:08:22.40 they've controlled for all those variables, 00:08:22.43\00:08:24.10 and so they're pretty sure that it's a biological effect. 00:08:24.13\00:08:27.60 Another thing that can lead to same sex attraction 00:08:27.64\00:08:30.51 is same sex abuse in childhood. 00:08:30.54\00:08:33.58 It can, doesn't always, 00:08:33.61\00:08:34.94 but it can eroticize same sex relationships. 00:08:34.98\00:08:39.11 Also, maltreatment in early childhood 00:08:39.15\00:08:41.85 is heavily correlated with same sex attraction, 00:08:41.88\00:08:45.29 people that are abused. 00:08:45.32\00:08:46.65 Why is that? 00:08:46.69\00:08:48.02 I'm not sure the reasons why, 00:08:48.06\00:08:49.72 I think it's an attempt to numb pain probably 00:08:49.76\00:08:53.80 and that there's also 00:08:53.83\00:08:55.53 maybe an element of wanting to reject authority, 00:08:55.56\00:08:59.47 because authority harmed 00:08:59.50\00:09:01.77 and then rejection of authority 00:09:01.80\00:09:04.41 could lead to just experimenting 00:09:04.44\00:09:07.21 with all kinds of behaviors, I don't know. 00:09:07.24\00:09:08.88 So do you think is that, you know, if the abuser, 00:09:08.91\00:09:12.95 let's say, it's a guy in the house 00:09:12.98\00:09:14.78 or whatever, and then the abuser wasn't the father, 00:09:14.82\00:09:18.32 then the man you would think, 00:09:18.35\00:09:22.42 the man would become gay possibly or... 00:09:22.46\00:09:26.09 The child that abused? 00:09:26.13\00:09:27.83 Possibly, I mean, I'm saying that 00:09:27.86\00:09:30.67 aside from being abused by a same sex individual 00:09:30.70\00:09:35.14 and eroticizing a same sex relationship, 00:09:35.17\00:09:37.17 besides that, 00:09:37.21\00:09:38.54 just abuse in the home or maltreatment in the home 00:09:38.57\00:09:41.61 is correlated with same sex attraction. 00:09:41.64\00:09:43.65 Just generally when you have a chaotic home life 00:09:43.68\00:09:46.15 or an abusive home environment, 00:09:46.18\00:09:47.78 you're going to have higher levels of people 00:09:47.82\00:09:49.32 with same sex attraction. 00:09:49.35\00:09:50.69 We don't know exactly why. 00:09:50.72\00:09:52.05 It could be a host of reasons, 00:09:52.09\00:09:53.42 but one of the things that Nicole Parker brings out, 00:09:53.46\00:09:55.39 and she's done a paper on homosexual lifestyle, 00:09:55.42\00:09:58.79 and she's correlated difficulty resolving conflict 00:09:58.83\00:10:02.70 with homosexual lifestyle. 00:10:02.73\00:10:04.67 So it could be that people grow up 00:10:04.70\00:10:06.43 in these chaotic environments 00:10:06.47\00:10:08.34 and they attempt this lifestyle as a way of coping with it. 00:10:08.37\00:10:12.74 In any case, I think we need to have a lot of compassion 00:10:12.77\00:10:16.01 for people that struggle with same sex attraction 00:10:16.04\00:10:20.05 and still I don't think 00:10:20.08\00:10:21.65 the best solution is to live in that lifestyle, 00:10:21.68\00:10:24.69 in those behaviors, yeah. 00:10:24.72\00:10:26.76 And, you know, what we're asking, 00:10:26.79\00:10:28.22 what we're asking of people with same sex attraction, 00:10:28.26\00:10:30.79 and some of them have been that way 00:10:30.83\00:10:33.76 from the time they can remember 00:10:33.80\00:10:35.13 and can't even conceive of being anything else. 00:10:35.16\00:10:38.23 What we're asking of them, what we're saying to them, 00:10:38.27\00:10:41.64 and what I think the Bible is saying to them 00:10:41.67\00:10:43.20 is follow Jesus and be celibate. 00:10:43.24\00:10:47.21 And we need to be very sensitive to that 00:10:47.24\00:10:49.11 because we haven't put that on ourselves. 00:10:49.14\00:10:51.81 Now I do believe that there is no temptation taken 00:10:51.85\00:10:54.72 such as is common to man. 00:10:54.75\00:10:56.89 In other words, we all have temptations 00:10:56.92\00:10:58.65 and they're all similar, 00:10:58.69\00:11:00.46 but I haven't had to live as a celibate. 00:11:00.49\00:11:03.16 So I want to be extra sensitive. 00:11:03.19\00:11:04.69 And I want to say this too 00:11:04.73\00:11:06.06 that I think gay people in church 00:11:06.09\00:11:09.63 have to depend more on the church family. 00:11:09.66\00:11:13.10 If they're going to lead that celibate life 00:11:13.13\00:11:15.07 and not have a family of their own, 00:11:15.10\00:11:16.44 they're going to have to lean more on the church family 00:11:16.47\00:11:19.34 to get their emotional needs met. 00:11:19.37\00:11:21.31 And emotional needs are very real. 00:11:21.34\00:11:23.35 We can't deny them. 00:11:23.38\00:11:25.15 They're going to lean more heavily on the church family. 00:11:25.18\00:11:27.92 And that means that we that are in biological families 00:11:27.95\00:11:30.49 need to be extra compassionate 00:11:30.52\00:11:32.42 and really cultivate a healthy environment for singles. 00:11:32.45\00:11:37.33 You know, sometimes we make it seem 00:11:37.36\00:11:38.69 like the only way to be normal is to be married. 00:11:38.73\00:11:40.90 And what does that say to single people? 00:11:40.93\00:11:42.76 There will be single people in church, 00:11:42.80\00:11:44.17 they will not have a partner, 00:11:44.20\00:11:45.70 and we want them to have that family experience 00:11:45.73\00:11:47.74 where they can get their emotional needs met 00:11:47.77\00:11:49.27 in the family of God 00:11:49.30\00:11:50.87 so they're not tempted to go to the local gay bar 00:11:50.91\00:11:53.21 and get their emotional needs met there. 00:11:53.24\00:11:55.81 And so we want to cultivate that in church, 00:11:55.84\00:11:57.61 and that means really pouring ourselves out 00:11:57.65\00:12:00.05 for people in church, 00:12:00.08\00:12:01.42 and not just going home after church, 00:12:01.45\00:12:02.78 and taking a nap, lay activities. 00:12:02.82\00:12:04.79 Yeah. 00:12:04.82\00:12:06.15 And then just being all about us in our own people, 00:12:06.19\00:12:07.89 you know... 00:12:07.92\00:12:09.26 Yeah, being an active member in the church, reaching out, 00:12:09.29\00:12:12.63 loving, pouring out love on individuals 00:12:12.66\00:12:15.76 when they come visit the church, 00:12:15.80\00:12:18.03 and not judging on the outward appearance per se. 00:12:18.07\00:12:21.60 That's right. 00:12:21.64\00:12:22.97 You know, I think of the council, 00:12:23.00\00:12:24.34 I believe it is Paul's writings, 00:12:24.37\00:12:26.34 I don't remember exactly where, but he says, 00:12:26.37\00:12:28.31 "Treat older women as mothers, younger women as sisters..." 00:12:28.34\00:12:32.18 Then I think, "Older men as fathers." 00:12:32.21\00:12:34.08 And then he says, "In all purity." 00:12:34.12\00:12:36.05 So we are to have a family-like relationship 00:12:36.08\00:12:39.05 with the boundaries 00:12:39.09\00:12:40.42 that God placed over human sexuality 00:12:40.46\00:12:43.53 so that our love is pure, 00:12:43.56\00:12:45.09 but it needs to be a very intense satisfying love 00:12:45.13\00:12:48.06 in the body of Christ. 00:12:48.10\00:12:49.43 We should not be content 00:12:49.46\00:12:51.07 with just superficial relationships, 00:12:51.10\00:12:53.03 it's not going to do it. 00:12:53.07\00:12:54.40 And if we're going to ask homosexually oriented people 00:12:54.44\00:12:57.74 or people with same sex attraction 00:12:57.77\00:13:00.18 to give up on having a partner for life 00:13:00.21\00:13:04.58 and then not offer them anything to replace that, 00:13:04.61\00:13:07.38 not offer them warmth of fellowship to replace that, 00:13:07.42\00:13:09.98 what are we saying to them? 00:13:10.02\00:13:11.49 That's really kind of cruel. 00:13:11.52\00:13:12.85 So we need to provide that something better. 00:13:12.89\00:13:15.36 You know, God doesn't just take away something bad, 00:13:15.39\00:13:17.86 He gives us something better. 00:13:17.89\00:13:19.63 Absolutely. Yeah. 00:13:19.66\00:13:21.00 Man, this is... It's an intense discussion. 00:13:21.03\00:13:22.76 Interesting discussion. Yeah. 00:13:22.80\00:13:24.87 I still can't get past that 60%, 00:13:24.90\00:13:27.30 I'm still stuck on that. 00:13:27.34\00:13:28.67 That 60% is a big number. 00:13:28.70\00:13:31.21 But you've learned something here, haven't you? 00:13:31.24\00:13:32.81 You've learned that just because someone has 00:13:32.84\00:13:36.08 one same sex encounter or same sex attraction 00:13:36.11\00:13:40.82 doesn't mean that they are gay. 00:13:40.85\00:13:42.95 It's not an all or nothing proposition. 00:13:42.98\00:13:45.35 There are some that may never experience anything else, 00:13:45.39\00:13:48.46 but there are quite a few that are flexible 00:13:48.49\00:13:50.16 and can go either way. 00:13:50.19\00:13:51.53 And to pigeonhole them as being gay 00:13:51.56\00:13:54.90 when maybe they were just experimenting 00:13:54.93\00:13:56.87 is a mistake. 00:13:56.90\00:13:58.23 Yeah. 00:13:58.27\00:13:59.60 Wow, you have so much excellent content. 00:13:59.63\00:14:03.54 And I can't believe that our time is just about up. 00:14:03.57\00:14:05.97 Yeah. 00:14:06.01\00:14:07.34 It just goes by too fast. Yeah. 00:14:07.38\00:14:09.18 For more information 00:14:09.21\00:14:10.98 make sure that you go to IntimateClarity.tv 00:14:11.01\00:14:14.62 where you'll be able to access resources 00:14:14.65\00:14:17.89 that will help you as you grow in Christ. 00:14:17.92\00:14:20.86 God bless. 00:14:20.89\00:14:22.22