The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are cautioned
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this
presentation may be too candid
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for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley, and I'm here
with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
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and she's a licensed
professional counselor.
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And today, we are going
to discuss a sensitive topic,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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You know, Jen, the Bible
says that God hates divorce.
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What are your thoughts on that?
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I think He hates divorce.
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As pertains to
divorce in a marriage,
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He hates divorce
of any kind, you know,
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relationships becoming estranged
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or fragmented, He
doesn't like that.
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But He particularly
hates in a marriage context
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because He loves marriage,
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and He designed
marriage for our good,
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for our
happiness, for our benefit.
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So God's ideal
for human sexuality,
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we always like to
put that ideal in place
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and show God's design,
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was that we would be
in a lifelong partnership,
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in a committed, consensual,
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loving relationship
for our entire life,
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that's His ideal.
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And that's the context in
which He designed sexuality
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should be
experienced and expressed.
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So that's a good thing.
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The Bible says that,
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"A man will leave
his father and mother
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and cling to his wife
or cleave to his wife."
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That's how it
describes marriage.
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So what happens in marriage
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is a new entity is
really created, and it says.
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"The two shall be one."
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So there's a new entity created
and what happens in divorce
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is you're really basically
pronouncing that entity dead.
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It's over, and it's
really like a family.
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You're kind of
pronouncing a family dead.
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It's a tragic thing,
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and it comes at
a very high cost,
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emotionally, and spiritually,
and psychologically too,
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and sometimes
financially, and physically.
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I was going to say. A
lot of other ways, yes.
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So typically, when we
discuss divorce in church,
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we refer back to
Jesus' teaching in Matthew 19.
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I'd like to go through
that for a moment here.
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Okay.
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So a group of
teachers asked Jesus,
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if a woman essentially married
several different brothers
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and each brother
subsequently died
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and she married
the next brother,
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then which one would
she be married to in heaven
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is what they were
essentially asking.
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And Jesus went on to
say, "Well, in heaven,
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there are
neither male nor female,
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they're like the angels."
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So in other words,
there's no marriage in heaven,
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and that's not
going to be an issue
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I think is what He was saying.
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And then He went on and
jumped into His teaching
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about divorce.
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Actually, they asked
Him a question, they said,
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"Can a man divorce
his wife for any cause?"
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So pay attention to
that phrase, "Any cause."
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That's referring
to a type of divorce
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that was prevalent
in Judaism at the time
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where a man who wanted
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to get rid of
his wife essentially
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could divorce her
for a trivial offense
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provided that he
was willing to pay out
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what was
essentially like an alimony.
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So like she burned the tofu?
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That's right, like,
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I don't think they
had tofu in those days,
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but she burned the toast
or she burned the falafels,
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you know, and he was
ready to divorce her for that,
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he really wanted
to be rid of her,
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it's like a bad headache,
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send her on her way
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as long as he was
willing to pay out that money,
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he could hand her a
bill of divorcement,
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and she would have to leave.
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Whereas, if he wanted to prove
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that she had broken her
marriage vows or something,
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he'd have to go
through a court process
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and that if he won that case,
he wouldn't have to pay out.
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So it kind of depended on
how much money the guy had.
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And that payout is
like alimony today?
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Essentially,
yeah. Correct, yeah.
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So a lot of these men had money
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and they probably
didn't honestly pay their women
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very much to send them away.
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So that would
happen rather routinely
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and men would then
pursue another relationship.
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So what happens
is Jesus is talking
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to a group of
Pharisees and religious leaders
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who are divorcing their wives
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for trivial
offenses and doing it
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in a very unethical,
very immoral, sloppy way,
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and people take that
counsel that He gave them
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where He said that,
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"Only in the case of
adultery could you divorce
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in God's plan."
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And they apply that to women
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that are
suffering physical abuse
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in their marriages,
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and we've seen this
happen over and over again.
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And I would just submit
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that we have to
consider the intended audience
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when we interpret a
passage of Scripture.
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So Jesus is talking to these men
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that are dismissing
their wives for nothing,
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and we apply it to the woman
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that's getting
beaten black and blue.
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Yeah, it doesn't...
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It definitely
doesn't apply to that.
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Jesus wouldn't
want you in a situation
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where you are one step
away from losing your life
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or you're going
through abuse and torment,
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we serve a God of love.
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That's right.
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You know, He's not
going to want that.
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In addition to
preventing divorce
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in the case of abuse,
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a lot of the
same religious leaders
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were against separation.
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So there was no way
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the woman could ever
under any circumstances separate
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from an abusive husband,
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and women have lost
their lives over that.
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Wow. It's true.
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A lot of the
same religious leaders
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that taught this also
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really, really
discouraged separation,
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and this is one of the reasons
that we have a whole program
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on what we call
structured separation
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or how to deal.
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When you need to get
away from a marriage,
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you're not quite
ready to divorce yet,
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but you need to get
away, what do you do?
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I was going to
ask you to break down
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structured separation.
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Well, just to give a recap
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'cause we have a
whole program on it,
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but basically, we give a
recap is you tell the person,
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"I love you. I'm
committed to the relationship.
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This is what's going wrong.
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This is what I need
to repair the situation,
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and I will come
back when you're ready,
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if you show me
evidence that you've changed."
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And you call that an
affirmation sandwich.
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It's like an
affirmation sandwich,
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that's absolutely correct.
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We love those affirmation
sandwiches, don't we?
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So the pressure
should be on the one
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who made the marriage
intolerable in the first place
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when it comes to divorce.
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So what we see
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and you and I were
chatting about this before is,
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you know, someone
will endure abuse,
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financial abuse,
physical abuse even,
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emotional, psychological abuse,
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a pattern of abuse
year after year after year
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with absolutely no incentive
to change on the abuser's part,
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and the victim will
finally, in exasperation,
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file for divorce
and end the marriage,
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something like shooting a
horse with the broken leg,
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you know, it's
going to die anyway,
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might as well
shorten the misery of it,
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and they'll do that,
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and then they will get accused
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of being the one that
broke up the marriage.
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Which is crazy.
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Not true, and I always ask like,
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"Who really did
the divorcing here?"
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I'm not saying it's always
the right decision to file,
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but when people do it out
of that kind of exasperation,
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I put a lot
less pressure on them
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than I'm going
to put on the person
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that made the relationship
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an intolerable
situation to begin with.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I'm going to go to them,
and I'm going to confront them,
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and I'm not going to coddle them
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as they often want.
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Now I have the privilege
as a counselor of kind of
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knowing the inside
of these situations
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and I see these
abuse situations unfold.
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And, you know, for that reason,
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I don't take a hard
stand against divorce
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when there's abuse involved
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because sometimes
people do all they can
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to end the abuse.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm not saying I would
divorce on those grounds,
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but I'm saying I'm
not hard on other people.
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I give them, you
know, freedom to choose,
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and I don't shame people
that have already been through
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a very, very
difficult situation.
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Yeah, well, you know,
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we've seen those
situations escalate...
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That's right.
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To where the
individual that was being abused
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ended up getting
killed, you know.
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It happens.
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And a lot of times,
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they have received
advice from religious leaders,
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"No, you stay in the marriage.
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You stay, you stay, you stay."
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A lot of times,
I'm sorry to say this,
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but the
configuration looks like this,
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the husband is
abusive, the wife is enabling.
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She takes it year after year,
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she even covers up
for him abusing her.
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I've seen so many
marriage situations
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where one spouse
is basically covering
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for the other's abuse of them.
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Wow.
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And I just want to take
them by their shoulders and say,
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"Don't you see
what's going on here?"
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Yeah.
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Well, you know,
they might tell you,
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"Oh, I tripped, I fell."
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Right?
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Yeah, and they'll
cover up for them.
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Yeah. That's right.
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Or even emotional
abuse, you know, a case where,
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you know, an individual
is cheating on the spouse,
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and the spouse...
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And then they come
home and blame the spouse,
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and they say, "The
reason I'm doing this
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is because of everything
that's wrong with you."
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And the spouse
believes them. Yeah.
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And keeps trying
to fix themselves.
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Yeah.
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You know, I'll be honest,
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early in my
counseling experience,
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I had a couple
that I was counseling
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and one of the two was,
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let's just say, a
little disorganized.
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Okay.
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And the other spouse
was very angry about that.
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And they pressured the
disorganized spouse a lot.
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And so the disorganized spouse
came to me for counseling,
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"Fix me, I need
help. I need to be fixed."
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Yeah.
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And what I didn't
see that was going on
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was that the real problem
was that the other spouse
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was just far too critical.
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And they needed to learn,
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sometimes when it's not a moral
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or ethical issue
or a safety issue,
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you just need to accept
people for who they are.
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Yeah, I mean there has be...
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You signed on for that.
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Yeah, there has to be
some form of individuality,
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yes two become one,
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but there still has to be
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some kind of individuality
in there, you know.
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And I'm sorry, as a
clinician, I was new to it all,
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but I didn't pick up
that really the spouse
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that was complaining
about the other spouse
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was the spouse that
had the bigger problem.
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Yes, everything's
a pet peeve. Exactly.
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And the thing that made
it difficult was the spouse
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that they were criticizing
all the time agreed with them.
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Yeah.
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And they were like,
"Yeah, I am the problem.
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Let's fix me."
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And so it was just...
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The whole system was
sold over to that narrative,
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and I really didn't get through.
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It wasn't wise
enough to get through it,
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but if I had it
to do over, I'd say,
00:10:33.13\00:10:35.16
"You know what the
real problem is here?
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Is you have far
too much criticism
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and not enough acceptance."
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And, you know,
constant criticism of a person
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you're living with
can constitute abuse.
00:10:43.61\00:10:46.84
It can constitute abuse.
00:10:46.88\00:10:48.64
And I would say,
there's one thing I've seen
00:10:48.68\00:10:51.05
that's present in
almost every family,
00:10:51.08\00:10:55.02
almost every person's childhood,
00:10:55.05\00:10:57.85
and so generally speaking,
00:10:57.89\00:10:59.72
people criticize too much
and they don't affirm enough.
00:10:59.75\00:11:04.53
The criticism to
affirmation ratio,
00:11:04.56\00:11:07.23
some clinicians
say it should be 6:1,
00:11:07.26\00:11:09.50
but now they're saying 20:1
00:11:09.53\00:11:11.00
Wow, 20:1.
00:11:11.03\00:11:12.37
You affirm and build up
the people around you 20 times
00:11:12.40\00:11:15.20
to the 1 time you
point out something wrong.
00:11:15.24\00:11:16.91
Yes.
00:11:16.94\00:11:18.27
And you kind of have
to point out things wrong
00:11:18.31\00:11:19.64
'cause when you're in a family,
00:11:19.67\00:11:21.01
it's kind of like you're
in a phone booth together,
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.38
you know, sooner or
later you have to say,
00:11:22.41\00:11:23.75
"Can you move
your leg over there?
00:11:23.78\00:11:25.11
I can't breathe."
00:11:25.15\00:11:26.48
You know? Yeah.
00:11:26.51\00:11:27.85
So you're going
to have to criticize,
00:11:27.88\00:11:29.22
it's not that
you never criticize.
00:11:29.25\00:11:30.59
And there's always
room for improvement,
00:11:30.62\00:11:31.95
but at the same time,
00:11:31.99\00:11:33.32
it's like you
don't just dwell on
00:11:33.36\00:11:34.69
and focus on
someone's faults, you know.
00:11:34.72\00:11:38.03
And then it looks also
like, in that situation, like,
00:11:38.06\00:11:42.00
well, what's
wrong with the person,
00:11:42.03\00:11:43.90
the person that
doesn't like anything,
00:11:43.93\00:11:47.00
has pet peeves,
everything's a pet peeve,
00:11:47.04\00:11:49.60
what does it say about...
00:11:49.64\00:11:50.97
Like they're not
happy with themselves,
00:11:51.01\00:11:52.34
that sounds like.
00:11:52.37\00:11:53.71
Well, I'll tell you
one possibility is that
00:11:53.74\00:11:55.08
they have a
personality disorder.
00:11:55.11\00:11:56.44
There's a couple of
them that come to mind,
00:11:56.48\00:11:57.91
one is called obsessive
compulsive personality disorder
00:11:57.95\00:11:59.95
or, you know?
00:11:59.98\00:12:01.32
OCD.
00:12:01.35\00:12:02.68
Micro-manager, yeah,
it's not the same as OCD.
00:12:02.72\00:12:04.05
OCD is when a person
does it to themselves,
00:12:04.09\00:12:06.65
but obsessive
compulsive personality disorder
00:12:06.69\00:12:08.86
is when you
control other people.
00:12:08.89\00:12:10.23
Okay.
00:12:10.26\00:12:11.59
Yeah, basically,
00:12:11.63\00:12:12.96
and then there's narcissistic
personality disorder
00:12:12.99\00:12:14.33
where a person is
just extremely selfish
00:12:14.36\00:12:17.33
and extremely self-centered,
00:12:17.37\00:12:19.33
and it's all about
them and never about you.
00:12:19.37\00:12:21.44
They lack the
capacity for empathy.
00:12:21.47\00:12:25.07
They lack the
capacity for caring
00:12:25.11\00:12:26.81
about the people around them.
00:12:26.84\00:12:28.18
Wow. Yeah.
00:12:28.21\00:12:29.54
And they also
have an unusual ability
00:12:29.58\00:12:32.71
to manipulate the
way people perceive them.
00:12:32.75\00:12:35.15
So oftentimes, in
a marriage situation,
00:12:35.18\00:12:36.99
they'll, you know,
00:12:37.02\00:12:38.52
perpetrate a lot of
abuse on their spouse,
00:12:38.55\00:12:40.46
really harm their spouse,
00:12:40.49\00:12:41.82
make life
intolerable for their spouse,
00:12:41.86\00:12:43.99
and their spouse will eventually
00:12:44.03\00:12:45.36
throw up their
arms and seek a divorce.
00:12:45.39\00:12:48.20
And then the
narcissistic personality
00:12:48.23\00:12:50.43
will be able to kind of
commandeer the narrative
00:12:50.47\00:12:54.70
and control the narrative
and make themselves look
00:12:54.74\00:12:56.71
like the martyr.
00:12:56.74\00:12:58.27
Wow. It's extremely frustrating.
00:12:58.31\00:12:59.64
Yeah.
00:12:59.67\00:13:01.28
Human psychology is...
00:13:01.31\00:13:03.45
Complex. Yes, very complex.
00:13:03.48\00:13:05.38
Yes, very much so.
00:13:05.41\00:13:06.88
That's a lot.
00:13:06.92\00:13:09.15
I mean, it's a lot to go over.
00:13:09.18\00:13:11.15
What would you say would
be like the primary takeaway?
00:13:11.19\00:13:15.46
Of this segment?
00:13:15.49\00:13:17.49
I would say that God designed
for marriage to be a school
00:13:17.53\00:13:23.43
where we learn how
to love and be loved
00:13:23.47\00:13:25.20
our whole life long
00:13:25.23\00:13:27.34
and that sometimes it
turns into the opposite
00:13:27.37\00:13:30.94
and that when these
ungodly principles take over,
00:13:30.97\00:13:35.84
this
hatefulness, this selfishness,
00:13:35.88\00:13:38.08
this self-centeredness
that makes life miserable,
00:13:38.11\00:13:40.32
the criticism,
00:13:40.35\00:13:42.62
failing to affirm
the people around you,
00:13:42.65\00:13:45.45
engaging in verbal,
emotional, financial,
00:13:45.49\00:13:48.76
or even physical abuse,
00:13:48.79\00:13:50.56
we need to look
carefully at that situation
00:13:50.59\00:13:52.93
before we tag the
person who filed for divorce.
00:13:52.96\00:13:56.36
Yeah, before we just
start labeling people.
00:13:56.40\00:13:58.57
Divorce is bigger than
just a legal transaction.
00:13:58.60\00:14:01.80
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:14:01.84\00:14:03.37
Man, our time just
always goes by so fast, Jen.
00:14:03.41\00:14:06.71
Thank you for
sharing that information.
00:14:06.74\00:14:08.34
You're welcome. Yeah.
00:14:08.38\00:14:09.71
My pleasure.
00:14:09.74\00:14:11.08
And if you need
more information,
00:14:11.11\00:14:12.91
if you need resources,
00:14:12.95\00:14:14.28
please go to IntimateClarity.tv
00:14:14.32\00:14:17.29
and make sure that you join us
00:14:17.32\00:14:18.95
on the next episode
of Intimate Clarity.
00:14:18.99\00:14:21.59