The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are
cautioned this presentation
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may be too candid
for younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley, and I'm here
with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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Now she is a licensed
professional counselor,
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and today we're going to
talk about a sensitive topic,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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That's right.
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Jen, in case of
extreme problems in a marriage,
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do you think that
separation can be a good thing?
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Personally, I do.
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I want to give deference
to other schools of thought.
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There are marriage counselors,
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you know,
Christian marriage counselors
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that say that separation
is a step toward divorce,
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and we want to
preserve marriages.
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And so, you know,
that's true, it's a fact.
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But I think that sometimes
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a separation
can save a marriage.
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But let me...
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Before I go into
that, let me talk about
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how God feels about
His marriage to His people.
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God said about marriage,
"What God has joined together,
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let no man separate", Mark 10:9.
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And we're told in Malachi
2:16 that God hates divorce.
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But even though
God hates divorce,
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I'm not convinced
that He hates separation
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because He Himself
separated from His people.
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Often His people
would descend into idolatry
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and He would say things like
what He said in Isaiah 54:7,
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"For a brief
moment, I abandoned you,
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but with deep compassion,
I will bring you back."
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The people would
descend into idolatry
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but the absence
of God's presence,
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so God's Spirit would
give them that wake-up call
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that they needed to
come to their senses,
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they would repent of their sins,
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and then they would
be reunited with God.
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And so sometimes separation...
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Sometimes our
presence gives the message
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that what you're doing is
okay, even what's not okay.
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Okay.
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So kind of like you become
an enabler type of thing...
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That's right, that's right.
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Where ends up
being like a codependent
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situation in some cases.
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That's right, and
it can very quickly
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become very dysfunctional
where even the person say
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it's an abuse situation,
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even the person
being abused can,
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in an unconscious way,
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contribute to the
abuse cycle by enabling,
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by being codependent.
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And so sometimes,
they need the separation
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in order to kind of
break that feedback loop,
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that continuum
in their own mind,
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so that they can
get kind of a reset.
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Okay.
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And come back, you know, with,
you know, a better attitude,
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and with more clarity,
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and better
boundaries in that relationship.
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I love that you
used "more clarity."
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Yeah, because that's
the name of our program.
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That's right,
Intimate Clarity, that's right.
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So the problems in a
marriage may not be sufficient
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to justify
divorce but it might be
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that there needs to be a
wake-up call, like I said.
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So let me give you
some examples of that.
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Of course, any type of
physical abuse and some people,
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and I respect them,
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believe that physical abuse
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is grounds for
divorce and I can see
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where they're
coming from on that.
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But I can't seem to get
around the words of Jesus
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where the only
grounds He gave were adultery.
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And I have seen marriages
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in which there
was physical abuse,
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recover from it.
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So I'm not saying you
have to stay in a marriage
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where there's physical
abuse, not saying that,
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it's your choice,
your decision but...
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Yeah, say, like for me,
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I would think that
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it would be in terms of...
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Well, I would think
that it would be grounds
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and the reason why I
would think that is because,
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like, you don't want
to stay in a situation
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where somebody could beat
you to death, or kill you,
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or whatever the case may be.
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That's right.
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Well, kind of prevailing wisdom
in Christian circles is that
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the three criterion for divorce
are abandon, the three A's,
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adultery,
abandonment, and abuse,
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and I respect that thinking.
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However, I think
often it may be worth it
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to try separation
first because sometimes
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separation can
salvage the relationship.
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So if there's physical abuse,
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financial
abuse, emotional abuse,
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you need to get
away from that situation
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because you're
going to get hurt.
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And what you're doing by
staying in that situation
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is you're
actually giving the abuser
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an opportunity to hurt you.
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And by giving
them that opportunity,
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you're actually,
you know, in a sense
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indirectly contributing
to their sin problem.
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So you want to remove
yourself from that situation
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if there's any
kind of abuse going on.
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And like I said,
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that can sometimes
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create an
environment in the relationship,
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even though you're
withdrawn from the relationship,
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where they can start
to come to their senses.
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It can kind of give
God a direct shot at them.
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Sometimes in a relationship,
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we actually block the access
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of the Holy
Spirit to that person,
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and if we remove ourselves,
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then God will be able to
get a direct shot at them.
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Yeah, you can do
that in less extreme ways
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than physically separating,
moving out of the home,
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by simply
emotionally withdrawing,
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for instance, from an argument.
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But if it gets to
the point where you know
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you're in a dangerous situation,
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and you're losing
your own bearings,
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and you're putting
yourself in harm's way,
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and through prayer and
council you come to the point
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where you need to separate
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and you know you
need to separate,
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it can save a marriage.
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But I think it needs to be done
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in a way that I call
structured separation.
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Unpack that, what is
structured separation?
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Okay, structured separation
is not just "I'm leaving,
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I'm so mad at
you, I can't stand you,
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I'm not staying here anymore."
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Structured separation is
more deliberative than that,
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it's more intentional than that.
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So what the individual
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that is seeking a
structured separation does
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is usually they write
a letter to their spouse,
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and in the letter they
begin with love and commitment.
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They say, "I love you,
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I am committed to
this relationship,
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I am not seeking
another relationship,
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I'm not looking to
end this relationship
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and seek another.
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I'm committed, I'm
here, I want you and me.
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But I want you and me
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in a better form
than we currently have."
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We're better than this
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is basically what you're saying.
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And then you very
carefully identify the problem,
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this is what's going
on that I cannot accept,
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that I cannot tolerate,
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and you talk about the
effects of the problem,
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how it's affecting you,
how it's affecting them,
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how it's affecting children
if there are children involved.
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And then you very
clearly state your requirements
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for returning to
that relationship
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or to a live-in
situation in that relationship.
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Sometimes it's simply...
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We need to go to counseling,
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that's all I'm
asking is counseling.
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Sometimes you
need to get counseling
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and you need to get
past your sexual addiction
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or you need to get to the place
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where you've
gotten to the bottom
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of why you get
physically or verbally violent.
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Uh-huh.
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You need to get to
the bottom of that,
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and you need to give me evidence
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that you have gotten
better and there need to be
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other people in your life,
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professionals that
are impartial people
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telling me that now it's
safe to live with you now.
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Yeah.
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And so it really
depends on the situation,
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what your criterion for
reuniting happens to be.
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But, you know, wise
woman told me once that...
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And I'm going to be a little bit
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stereotypical here,
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in an abuse situation,
it's not always the man,
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believe me, it's
not always the man
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abusing the
wife but it often is.
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And often the wife
will be telling the husband
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that she's unhappy,
and that this is terrible,
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and she'll be
laboring with him verbally
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and he won't
hear a thing she says,
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and nothing she
says seems to impact him.
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But once she
moves away, suddenly...
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Yeah, that speaks volume.
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He hears thunders, that's right.
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Uh-huh.
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And this woman
told me, you know,
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"Men often don't
hear what women say,
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they hear what they do."
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So sometimes the only thing
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that will speak to that
person is "I'm leaving."
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It goes back to that saying,
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"Actions speak
louder than words."
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That's right. Let me
ask you this question.
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So how do you end that letter?
Like how do you end that?
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Yeah, good question.
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You have to close the
letter with hope, and faith,
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and that basic message
that we're better than this,
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in Jesus, we can
get through this,
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we can experience change,
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this doesn't have
to keep going this way.
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I will not live
in this situation
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if it's going to be this way,
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but I believe it
can be different.
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So it's kind of like a
criticism sandwich, right?
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It's totally an
affirmation sandwich.
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You're starting
with the good. Yeah.
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Then you
introduce the issues, like,
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that need to be addressed
and then you end with...
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And you establish the
fact that you're, you know,
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you want to work this out,
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you want to be
there and work it out.
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It's just like Revelation 3
and Jesus talking to His bride,
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the church, and generally
as He speaks to each, you know,
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church which represents
an era of Christianity,
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He'll say, this is
what I'm happy with,
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this is what I'm not happy with,
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and this is what
I want you to do,
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and then He'll
say something that
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that generally that
engenders faith and hope
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that things can change.
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So yeah, it's a
very, very good model.
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It's a good model to
follow in any relationship,
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in friendships, in
parent-child relationships,
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when you have something negative
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to bring to that person,
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to affirm what's
right in the relationship,
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and then issue the criticism,
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and then follow it up
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with what's
right and what's good,
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and the hope that you have
in that relationship recovery.
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We call it an affirmation
sandwich in our family.
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And, you know,
the reality is that...
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The criticism to
affirmation ratio
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in relationships needs to be...
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It used to be 6 to 1, you
know, the experts would say.
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Now they're saying 20 to 1.
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So we need to do
a lot more affirming
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and a lot less criticizing.
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However,
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and this is a very
important sort of disclaimer.
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Marriage counselors
working with couples
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will say that there's a
set of rules that apply.
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But really kind of all
bets are off, everything changes
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when you're dealing
with an abuse situation.
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Okay.
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For instance, in counseling
couples, I will often try,
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if an
individual comes to me says
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they're having
trouble with their marriage,
00:10:18.15\00:10:19.48
I'll try to get the spouse
into the counseling office
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so that we can work
together to try to resolve that.
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But if there's abuse going on,
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I won't do that
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until the
individual perpetrating
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the abuse has
received counseling
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and has come to the
point of change in themselves.
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And then I'll try to
bring that couple together
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because what'll
happen is all the empathies
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that would normally
work in a relationship
00:10:40.87\00:10:43.14
on the part of the victim
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will be exploited by the abuser.
00:10:45.11\00:10:47.31
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:47.34\00:10:48.68
So...
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And then if you make
that reintroduction too soon,
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you're just entering them
back into a hostile situation.
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That's exactly right
and that's, you know,
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to come right down to it,
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that is the
purpose of separation
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is to try to
salvage the relationship,
00:11:02.86\00:11:05.29
do everything you can to
salvage the relationship,
00:11:05.33\00:11:08.06
which sometimes means
temporarily getting away
00:11:08.10\00:11:10.87
from the relationship
and giving that person
00:11:10.90\00:11:12.90
an opportunity to really
think about what they're doing,
00:11:12.93\00:11:16.30
and really reckon with
God over what they're doing,
00:11:16.34\00:11:19.44
and come to their senses.
00:11:19.47\00:11:21.34
Kind of like a self-reflection
type of moment, yeah.
00:11:21.38\00:11:24.78
Yeah, and I'm a
Seventh-day Adventist
00:11:24.81\00:11:27.18
and one of the most
prominent of figures
00:11:27.22\00:11:29.38
of Seventh-day Adventists
is a lady named Ellen White,
00:11:29.42\00:11:32.25
and she wrote volumes
and volumes about marriage,
00:11:32.29\00:11:35.09
and really affirmed
marriage in a powerful way,
00:11:35.12\00:11:38.09
and was very
biblical in her view
00:11:38.13\00:11:39.69
with marriage and
divorce by the way.
00:11:39.73\00:11:41.60
But she actually
separated from her husband
00:11:41.63\00:11:43.60
for a period of time that's
kind of a well-kept secret
00:11:43.63\00:11:45.93
but I have letters that
she wrote to her husband
00:11:45.97\00:11:48.80
while they were separated
00:11:48.84\00:11:50.37
and they followed this
formula of affirmation sandwich,
00:11:50.41\00:11:53.58
as we're calling it, perfectly.
00:11:53.61\00:11:54.94
Really? She basically...
00:11:54.98\00:11:56.31
"I love you, I'm
committed to you,
00:11:56.34\00:11:58.75
I'll do anything
for this relationship
00:11:58.78\00:12:00.72
but these things are happening
00:12:00.75\00:12:02.88
and I can't be
with you right now.
00:12:02.92\00:12:05.05
When these things resolve,
when you come to your senses,
00:12:05.09\00:12:07.92
then we can reunite,
yeah, she was very, very strong.
00:12:07.96\00:12:10.76
I didn't realize that.
00:12:10.79\00:12:12.39
I have never read
anything that's so perfectly
00:12:12.43\00:12:17.10
really
manifested the love of God
00:12:17.13\00:12:19.53
in the way He deals
with an abusive situation
00:12:19.57\00:12:23.00
as I read in her
letters to her husband.
00:12:23.04\00:12:26.24
And apparently, what happened,
and it's a sad situation,
00:12:26.27\00:12:29.28
apparently what happened
was he had several strokes,
00:12:29.31\00:12:33.48
and the strokes
affected his behavior,
00:12:33.52\00:12:35.08
and he became
jealous, possessive,
00:12:35.12\00:12:37.52
and really
emotionally abusive to her.
00:12:37.55\00:12:40.36
And for her own sanity,
00:12:40.39\00:12:42.59
she separated
from that situation.
00:12:42.62\00:12:44.49
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:44.53\00:12:46.13
Well, it sounds like it
was a good move on her part,
00:12:46.16\00:12:49.30
they ended up
getting back together.
00:12:49.33\00:12:50.80
Yeah.
00:12:50.83\00:12:52.17
And it was a strong
relationship from...
00:12:52.20\00:12:54.80
From that point forward, yeah.
00:12:54.84\00:12:56.64
I believe that
separation can save a marriage,
00:12:56.67\00:12:59.37
I believe it can
done right and done,
00:12:59.41\00:13:02.74
led by God's Spirit and I
would just caution people,
00:13:02.78\00:13:05.05
don't do it haphazardly.
00:13:05.08\00:13:06.58
Uh-huh.
00:13:06.61\00:13:07.95
Seek out counselors or safety
in a multitude of counselors,
00:13:07.98\00:13:10.32
so if you have a
handful of people,
00:13:10.35\00:13:12.42
pastor maybe or an
elder at the church,
00:13:12.45\00:13:14.96
you know, friends that are,
00:13:14.99\00:13:16.59
you know, wise people that
have capabilities of working
00:13:16.62\00:13:20.23
through difficult
problems like this,
00:13:20.26\00:13:22.03
gather those people around you,
00:13:22.06\00:13:23.40
tell them what
you're considering,
00:13:23.43\00:13:25.07
ask for their
input, and pray, then pray,
00:13:25.10\00:13:28.70
take those things to God
00:13:28.74\00:13:30.07
because people
can give bad counsel.
00:13:30.11\00:13:31.74
You take those things to God,
00:13:31.77\00:13:33.11
and really pray
and fast over it,
00:13:33.14\00:13:35.04
and do it with God's leading,
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.05
God's guidance,
and in God's Spirit.
00:13:37.08\00:13:39.35
And sometimes that
can save a marriage,
00:13:39.38\00:13:40.92
personally I believe.
00:13:40.95\00:13:42.28
I know there's people
that would question that,
00:13:42.32\00:13:43.69
but this is where I've
landed as a marriage counselor
00:13:43.72\00:13:46.89
and as a human being.
00:13:46.92\00:13:48.26
Yeah, and that's...
00:13:48.29\00:13:50.29
If you can
preserve the marriage,
00:13:50.33\00:13:52.16
ultimately that's the
best what we need to do
00:13:52.19\00:13:54.30
is preserve the marriage.
00:13:54.33\00:13:55.66
That's what we
want, that's the endgame.
00:13:55.70\00:13:57.03
Absolutely.
00:13:57.07\00:13:58.40
Even if it's inconvenient,
00:13:58.43\00:13:59.77
and that's a lot of the
reason people don't separate
00:13:59.80\00:14:01.14
because it's so inconvenient,
00:14:01.17\00:14:02.50
you know, it's just
easier to stay there.
00:14:02.54\00:14:04.14
You know, what's
really inconvenient
00:14:04.17\00:14:05.51
is the fact that our time is up.
00:14:05.54\00:14:06.88
Oh, yeah. That's true.
00:14:06.91\00:14:09.38
Well, there's
just not enough time.
00:14:09.41\00:14:11.08
Make sure you tune in next time,
00:14:11.11\00:14:12.98
but if you would
like more resources,
00:14:13.01\00:14:14.85
go to IntimateClarity.tv
and check out the website.
00:14:14.88\00:14:19.12
We'll see you next time.
00:14:19.15\00:14:20.49
God bless.
00:14:20.52\00:14:21.86