The following program
discusses sensitive issues
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related to sexuality.
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Parents are cautioned
this presentation may be
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too candid for
younger audiences.
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Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
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I'm Jason Bradley,
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and I'm here with
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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She is a licensed
professional counselor.
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And today, we are going to
talk about a sensitive topic,
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but it's a
conversation we need to have.
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Jen, what is the
modesty and does it help
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promote a healthy sexuality
or does it suppress it?
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So modesty in the most
broad sense of the term
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is humility about yourself.
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Okay.
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But typically,
when we say modesty,
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we are thinking of clothing,
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and typically,
when we say modesty,
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we're thinking
of women's clothing.
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Yes.
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But there's
other forms of modesty.
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People can be
modest about their wealth
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and wear humble clothing,
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drive humble cars, and so forth.
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But because we are
talking about sexuality,
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let's focus in on what
most people are thinking
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when they say modesty
and that is women's clothing.
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Hmm.
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And the trend
we see in the world
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where women are
exposing more and more,
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we have talked about
the fact that Adam and Eve
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had that naked and not ashamed
experience before the fall,
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and then as a result of the fall
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felt the need to cover up,
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we talked about body
shaming and so forth.
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And we talked about
how when a man and a woman
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in a married relationship
experience intimacy,
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they get to go
back to that naked
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and not ashamed experience.
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And so my thinking is that
what's going on spiritually
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when a woman is in modest
with her clothing in a way
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that put's on
display her sexuality,
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in a way that distracts
and draws attention to her,
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I think there's
probably a desire
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for that naked and
not ashamed experience,
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but she is kind of taking a
shortcut to try to get there,
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so in a way it's
a false intimacy,
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it's an instant intimacy
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where she gets that
experience of feeling,
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you know,
exposed, not being ashamed,
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but I don't think it really
works for her and the long run,
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yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's interesting, you know,
like everything that God has
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Satan has a counterfeit for it.
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And so where we see
the God promoting love,
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you know, we see
Satan promoting lust.
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And so it's a constant battle.
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But I just wonder, I
think, it's very helpful for us
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as people trying to
reach people on the world
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to look at what's
going in their hearts
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behind the things we do rather
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than just
condemning their actions.
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And I really think that
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there is a craving for
intimacy in our world today
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and a craving for
love and affection,
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but what we see is that
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it's actually being
driven out of the world.
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So Jesus said
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because iniquity shall increase
men's love will wax cold,
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and that's talking
about natural affection
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between human beings.
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And then we see in...
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That's Matthew 24:12
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and when we see in 2 Timothy 3:3
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that, "One of
the signs of the end
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is that people are
without 'natural affection.'"
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So we see as
iniquity begins to abound,
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people's ability
to love one another
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and experience that intimacy
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is really being
driven out of the human race,
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and that's a tragic outcome
of sin in our world today,
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and so I think that a lot of
what's going on with immodesty
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and various forms
of immorality as well
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is just a desire for
love, a desire for intimacy,
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and we should treat it as such.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Again, it's God's
perfect image being distorted.
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Yeah.
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And if you think about it,
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intimacy is a really high risk
venture, very, very high risk.
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What we risk
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when we try to form an intimate
relationship of any kind,
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and this isn't just
a married relationship
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but any kind of friendship,
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where we were on an
emotionally intimate level,
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is we risk being rejected,
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i.e. may be
they won't love me...
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So like a level
of vulnerability.
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That's right. Okay.
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And we also risk
wanting to reject them
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if you get locked
into a relationship,
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what if you want to
out, maybe I won't like them,
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you know, so intimacy
for both of those reasons
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is a really high risk venture
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and we'd rather take a shortcut,
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we'd rather just get that
instant gratification and feel,
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you know, that sense of intimacy
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without having to do the work
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because really true
intimacy is predicated on
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sacrificing the
lower for the higher,
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the lower of human
nature for the higher,
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the self-centeredness
of human nature
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for the relationship itself.
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And every single one of us
in any kind of relationship,
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especially a
married relationship
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but any kind of relationship,
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if we are going to
continue that relationship,
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we are going to have
to pass that threshold
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where natural affection
is no longer gratifying
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because we have been confronted
with our own selfishness.
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And in order to stay
in that relationship,
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we have to cross that threshold,
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and that requires sacrifice.
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Yes.
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It required
sacrifice of God himself.
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He came to earth and in...
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And God is a perfect holy being,
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but in order to love us,
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he had to himself
experience sacrifice.
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So how much more those of us
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that have a
carnal selfish nature
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need to experience
sacrifice in order to love.
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Yeah, and that dying to self
process is an everyday thing,
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you know, sanctification
is the work of a lifetime.
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So we have to
constantly die to self.
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Sacrifice the lower for
the higher, that's right.
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Absolutely. That's right.
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So one of the factors as
I see it in fear of intimacy
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is what I would
call covetousness
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where I want what I don't have
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and I don't want what I do have,
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and I see this a
lot with young people.
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So okay, okay.
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So this is kind of
like the grass is greener
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on the other side of the fence
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That's right. Type of
philosophy there. Okay.
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I see that a lot
with young people
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that are trying to
find a life partner,
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and they are on dating and then
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you know, someone may
be is interested in them,
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but as soon as they
kind of get that person,
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then suddenly they don't
want that people anymore,
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and that's based on a phenomenon
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we call perceived value complex,
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where an
individual perceives that
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which is not available to
them as being more valuable,
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and they perceive
that which they possess
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as being less valuable.
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It's kind of like the
"runaway bride" syndrome
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where whenever
you have commitment,
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you know, you flee, you runaway.
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So I think a lot of young people
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that have come divorced homes
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where they don't see
model in their parent's
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that intimacy
and that commitment
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really struggle with this
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where commitment
is terrifying to them
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because they've
never seen it acted out
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in their parent's lives,
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and so I want to say to them
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that you can get
past that threshold,
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but you have to
do it intentionally
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'cause you're
going to want to run,
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you're going to want to run.
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Yeah, to me, it seems like you
would want to build something
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with that special
someone that's going to last,
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like why do you want
to try something new here
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and new there and new
there, and what's the...
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I've seen it where
people will be in a relationship
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with someone where
they actually have a shot
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at building a
relationship with them
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and they will then really
back out of that relationship
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or panic and want to
get out of that relationship
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because suddenly they see,
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in high relief, all
the flaws of that person,
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but then suddenly they
are out of that relationship
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where they are seeing
someone from a distance
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and all they can see
is the good stuff, yeah.
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And could it also be
that like maybe sometimes
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in the beginning
of that relationship,
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you know, when
oxytocin and the dopamine
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and all that
stuff is being released,
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like the honeymoon stage,
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the individual
ignored the warning signs...
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That there was something wrong.
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That were there, they ignored
the red flags that were there
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because of that initial
release of those hormones,
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and then a month, two
months, two years later,
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they are like, "Wait a minute."
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Yeah, yeah, so you
are in this relationship
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and all of a sudden you
are panicking because you...
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And that's the
nature of sexual attraction
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is that it tends to blind you.
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And that's another really
good purpose for modesty is that
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when you don't put
on display those things
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that would summon up
those hormones in another person
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or those physiologic
reactions in another person
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or those psychological
reactions in another person,
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you are giving them a
chance of getting to know you
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apart from that experience.
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And a lot of times,
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that can help stabilize people
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and give them a shot at
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building a more
solid relationship.
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So I am into modesty, I
am into common sense modesty.
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I've been through several
different phases of my life,
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you know, believing in
modesty as different things.
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I remember a phase when I
was much more old-fashioned
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in the way I
dressed, should I say that.
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I think modesty
is wearing what is...
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If we are talking
about modesty as dress,
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it's wearing what is
the most conservative
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but is also
something that is accepted
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and normal in that
society provided that
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that society has
something reasonably modest
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so they consider it normal.
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Yeah, it's getting
pretty crazy out there.
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Pretty crazy words. Absolutely.
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Yeah, I remember
working for an academy
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and the staff of the academy
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just said, "We
need to go to uniform
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'cause kids can't find
modest clothes anymore."
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Yeah.
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So we're getting to that
point, but I still think that
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there are decent
clothes that you can wear
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and you can get
away with being modest
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and still looking normal.
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Absolutely.
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You know, and as a guy,
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you know, I think a
woman looks beautiful
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in modest attire as opposed to
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I don't want to see everything,
you know what I mean?
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Putting
everything on display. Yeah.
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And the other thing is
there is a double standard,
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like if you think
about evening wear,
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evening wear
for a man is a suit,
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you are covered, you
are, you know, modest,
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and you are wearing flat shoes
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so you can walk
and you can function,
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evening wear for
women is really high heels
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and all kind of
hair and, you know,
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plunging neckline a lot
of times, skimpy attire,
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various parts
showing, much less physically
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to say for that woman,
much less warm for them,
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you know, women
can get a chill from,
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you know,
evening air and so forth,
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but she is supposed to be,
you know, pretty much unveiled,
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and so it's really an
unfair double standard
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when it comes to modesty.
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Men get away with modesty
a lot easier than women do.
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That is... You know?
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I would agree with that.
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You would have it a
lot easier than we do.
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It's just... It's really crazy.
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But so, you know,
modesty at its core
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is being willing to present
myself in a way that enables...
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And I'm speaking
of young women here,
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that enables young
men to get to know me
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without having to struggle
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with undue feelings of
attraction or summoning up,
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you know, physical
reactions from that young man
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and getting it to where
they want to look me in the face
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and get to know me as a person.
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Yeah, not being
someone's stumbling block.
00:11:19.77\00:11:22.14
Yeah. Yeah.
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And we need to not
monsterfy all men either
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and assume that
all they want is,
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you know, sexual things.
00:11:28.22\00:11:29.55
Men are human beings,
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they're made in
the image of God,
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and many men want
to get to know a woman
00:11:32.32\00:11:34.46
on that very deep soul level
00:11:34.49\00:11:36.09
and really come to
know them as a person
00:11:36.12\00:11:38.19
and don't want to be distracted
00:11:38.23\00:11:40.53
by invasive
thoughts of sexual things.
00:11:40.56\00:11:42.86
Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:42.90\00:11:44.63
And I mean, when you look at it,
00:11:44.67\00:11:46.00
if you have a marriage
that was predicated on sex,
00:11:46.03\00:11:50.17
then your marriage is
most likely going to fail
00:11:50.21\00:11:53.14
because you're lacking
that true relationship,
00:11:53.17\00:11:55.64
that friendship as we've talked
about before, that best friend,
00:11:55.68\00:12:00.75
you need to have the
best friend in your spouse.
00:12:00.78\00:12:02.98
That's right.
00:12:03.02\00:12:04.35
I've often wondered
why God makes people
00:12:04.39\00:12:06.39
at the beginning
of life so beautiful,
00:12:06.42\00:12:08.06
and then we tend to lose
our looks as we get older...
00:12:08.09\00:12:10.43
I am not trying to
hurt anyone's feelings here
00:12:10.46\00:12:12.19
'cause I'm aging myself,
00:12:12.23\00:12:13.56
but, you know, we
go through that prime
00:12:13.60\00:12:15.53
where we are just as
beautiful as we will ever be,
00:12:15.56\00:12:17.63
and face it, you know,
00:12:17.67\00:12:19.63
there is a certain amount
of attraction factor in that
00:12:19.67\00:12:22.40
and a man becomes
interested in a woman
00:12:22.44\00:12:24.14
and a woman in a man,
00:12:24.17\00:12:25.64
it leads to some degree
because of the way they look.
00:12:25.67\00:12:29.14
I would think it
would be better to make them
00:12:29.18\00:12:31.35
as ugly as they will
ever be during that phase
00:12:31.38\00:12:33.52
so that you get to
know them as a person.
00:12:33.55\00:12:34.88
But God didn't do
it that way, did He?
00:12:34.92\00:12:37.25
Yeah.
00:12:37.29\00:12:38.62
And so we have
to kind of wrestle
00:12:38.65\00:12:39.99
with this powerful
physical attraction
00:12:40.02\00:12:41.66
between males and females
00:12:41.69\00:12:44.13
and really navigate around
it and make sure that we know
00:12:44.16\00:12:47.90
that we are in it for
the right reasons as well.
00:12:47.93\00:12:50.27
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
00:12:50.30\00:12:52.37
You should feel
like your wife is,
00:12:52.40\00:12:54.64
you know, as a guy, as a
man, you should feel like
00:12:54.67\00:12:57.04
your wife is the most
beautiful woman in the world.
00:12:57.07\00:13:00.04
And, you know,
there... At all stages.
00:13:00.08\00:13:01.84
Absolutely.
00:13:01.88\00:13:03.21
And what happens in the
male brain regarding his wife
00:13:03.24\00:13:08.05
is there is a chemical reaction
when they become intimate
00:13:08.08\00:13:11.65
where there is this
huge amount of oxytocin
00:13:11.69\00:13:14.76
that floods the
system, and what happens is
00:13:14.79\00:13:17.46
that leads to the man to
sort of imprinting the wife,
00:13:17.49\00:13:21.60
you see like baby ducks
imprinting after their mother,
00:13:21.63\00:13:25.03
there is an imprint
that takes place there
00:13:25.07\00:13:27.20
where the woman becomes
the man's standard of beauty
00:13:27.24\00:13:30.47
for the rest of his
life if it's done right.
00:13:30.51\00:13:32.37
Wow.
00:13:32.41\00:13:33.74
And every woman will be
less beautiful in his mind
00:13:33.78\00:13:37.65
than she is.
00:13:37.68\00:13:39.01
Yes, wow. That's amazing.
00:13:39.05\00:13:40.38
Yeah, it's powerful. Yes, it is.
00:13:40.42\00:13:42.12
And God wants to
give men that gift.
00:13:42.15\00:13:43.99
And if they will be modest
00:13:44.02\00:13:45.65
and they will
appreciate modesty,
00:13:45.69\00:13:47.72
and respect the
boundaries that God puts
00:13:47.76\00:13:50.99
on premarital relationships,
00:13:51.03\00:13:53.16
then they will be set
up to experience just that.
00:13:53.19\00:13:55.80
Absolutely.
00:13:55.83\00:13:57.17
Don't take your
spouse for granted.
00:13:57.20\00:13:58.53
That's right. Love
them while you have them.
00:13:58.57\00:14:00.70
That's right. Absolutely.
00:14:00.74\00:14:02.37
We've uncovered so much,
00:14:02.40\00:14:03.77
and it's time
for us to go already.
00:14:03.81\00:14:07.08
Make sure that you check out
our website IntimateClarity.TV
00:14:07.11\00:14:12.71
and make sure
you join us next time
00:14:12.75\00:14:14.38
on another wonderful
episode of Intimate Clarity
00:14:14.42\00:14:17.75
where we discuss intimate
topics with biblical clarity.
00:14:17.79\00:14:21.22