Welcome to "Intimate Clarity"
00:00:30.89\00:00:32.56
I'm Jason Bradley
and here with me today is
00:00:32.59\00:00:35.16
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer
00:00:35.20\00:00:36.53
She is a licensed, professional
counselor and today we are going
00:00:36.56\00:00:39.77
to be talking
about a sensitive topic,
00:00:39.83\00:00:42.50
but it's a conversation that
00:00:42.54\00:00:43.87
we need to have because the
world is talking about it...
00:00:43.91\00:00:46.68
and it's not always
from a Biblical perspective.
00:00:46.71\00:00:49.51
When God created marriage
and sexuality, do you think that
00:00:49.54\00:00:54.72
He created it to be equal Jen?
00:00:54.75\00:00:57.79
I think so... we see
this wonderful paradox
00:00:57.82\00:01:00.66
in Genesis 1:27, it says,
"God created man in His image;
00:01:00.69\00:01:05.79
in the image of
God created He him."
00:01:05.83\00:01:07.86
And then it says, "Male
and female created He them."
00:01:07.90\00:01:11.30
So on one side of the
symmetry, we have God created
00:01:11.33\00:01:15.50
man and woman and
everything God creates is what?
00:01:15.54\00:01:18.67
It's good, God is
good. All the time.
00:01:18.71\00:01:21.81
All the time. God
is good. That's right!
00:01:21.84\00:01:23.81
So everything God creates is
good and He pronounces it good.
00:01:23.85\00:01:27.12
So He never wanted to
seem like one of the genders
00:01:27.15\00:01:29.82
is superior to the
other; that would be against
00:01:29.85\00:01:32.49
the Biblical model of
creation of the genders.
00:01:32.52\00:01:35.66
But on the other hand it
says, "Male and female created
00:01:35.69\00:01:39.13
He them," so we are equally
good, but at the same time,
00:01:39.16\00:01:43.33
we are different and
what we need to do is maintain
00:01:43.37\00:01:47.14
the tension between
those two things because on
00:01:47.17\00:01:49.77
the one hand - some forces
in the world today say that
00:01:49.80\00:01:53.94
one is better than the
other, and on the other hand,
00:01:53.98\00:01:57.48
there's an effort to completely
obliterate the differences,
00:01:57.51\00:02:01.18
and so we need to keep
that tension carefully.
00:02:01.22\00:02:04.32
Now, I personally
believe that when God created
00:02:04.35\00:02:08.52
man and woman, it was a
horizontal relationship,
00:02:08.56\00:02:12.49
and I'm going to
explain where I'm coming from
00:02:12.53\00:02:14.80
and give you some evidence,
but I want to acknowledge
00:02:14.83\00:02:17.60
up front that people
feel differently about this.
00:02:17.63\00:02:19.67
There are different
interpretations and ideas,
00:02:19.70\00:02:22.17
but this is mine...
That God created man and
00:02:22.20\00:02:24.77
woman in a
horizontal configuration;
00:02:24.81\00:02:27.68
there was no need for one
to leave the other because
00:02:27.71\00:02:30.91
there was no conflict
because there was no sin.
00:02:30.95\00:02:33.72
So there was really
no need for hierarchy in
00:02:33.75\00:02:36.42
in that
relationship - in my thinking.
00:02:36.45\00:02:38.65
But unfortunately, as a
result of sin, there was a
00:02:38.69\00:02:42.42
subjection - subjugation,
I should say, of the woman
00:02:42.46\00:02:45.19
to the man and I get
that from Genesis 3:16...
00:02:45.23\00:02:48.40
where God gave Eve the
punishment that would come
00:02:48.43\00:02:51.83
upon her or the consequences
of her sin and they were
00:02:51.87\00:02:54.54
basically three things... Okay
00:02:54.57\00:02:56.10
"You'll have pain
and toil in childbearing,
00:02:56.14\00:02:58.21
your desire will be
toward your husband,
00:02:58.24\00:03:01.01
and the third is...
he will rule over you."
00:03:01.04\00:03:04.35
It's very
interesting to unpack that...
00:03:04.38\00:03:06.88
The pain and toil of
childbearing is huge.
00:03:06.92\00:03:09.88
Oh man, it looks like it. It is.
00:03:09.92\00:03:11.95
And you never have been
through that and you never will,
00:03:11.99\00:03:14.49
but I can assure you,
having been through two births
00:03:14.52\00:03:16.83
with no anesthesia - God wasn't
kidding when He said that. Wow!
00:03:16.86\00:03:21.00
But I think that
that's referring, by the way,
00:03:21.03\00:03:22.53
to a lot more than
just the birth process.
00:03:22.56\00:03:24.83
I think it's referring to ALL
the difficulties that come upon
00:03:24.87\00:03:27.74
women because of
their reproductive ability;
00:03:27.77\00:03:31.47
PMS, perimenopause and
menopause, all those things
00:03:31.51\00:03:34.98
have symptoms and difficulties.
00:03:35.01\00:03:36.51
PLUS, I think it's
talking about the social aspects
00:03:36.54\00:03:38.81
of it where women are
always caring for children,
00:03:38.85\00:03:42.55
and for people that might
not be biologically children,
00:03:42.58\00:03:46.32
might act like children
- women are the caregivers
00:03:46.35\00:03:49.06
in the whole system.
00:03:49.09\00:03:50.96
So there's a lot of pain
and suffering that is entailed
00:03:50.99\00:03:53.70
in those roles, but
beyond that it says...
00:03:53.73\00:03:56.46
Your desire will be
towards your husband,
00:03:56.50\00:03:58.57
and that's an interesting
word, it's "teshuqah,"
00:03:58.60\00:04:01.30
and it means...
"To stretch out after."
00:04:01.34\00:04:03.81
We only see it in two
other places in the Bible.
00:04:03.84\00:04:05.97
We see it in "Song of Solomon,"
where it's talking about
00:04:06.01\00:04:08.71
marital love and
desire, but also in Genesis 4
00:04:08.74\00:04:12.65
where it's talking about
SIN, desiring to have Cain
00:04:12.68\00:04:16.92
in the sense of tempting him.
00:04:16.95\00:04:18.85
It's a very mysterious
word, but what I think
00:04:18.89\00:04:20.56
what it's
referring to, in my opinion,
00:04:20.59\00:04:22.16
is this innate drive
women have to acquire
00:04:22.19\00:04:25.86
the approval of their husband.
00:04:25.89\00:04:27.56
And then the third part
of that consequence of sin
00:04:28.03\00:04:30.73
that came upon Eve was
that he would rule over her.
00:04:30.77\00:04:33.84
So, I can't go to an
extreme and say that there's no
00:04:33.87\00:04:37.91
hierarchy after the fall,
I can see that in the marital
00:04:37.94\00:04:41.78
relationship and I could
see it in the New Testament too
00:04:41.81\00:04:44.15
where women are enjoined
to submit to their husband.
00:04:44.18\00:04:46.45
Let me ask you
this... Do you think that both
00:04:46.48\00:04:48.85
parties, you know -
the man and the woman both
00:04:48.88\00:04:52.42
want approval from each other?
00:04:52.45\00:04:54.19
I do... I think the
marital relationship is so close
00:04:54.22\00:04:57.39
and that person knows
you better than anyone.
00:04:57.43\00:04:59.06
But I think women especially
are inclined to give up
00:05:00.06\00:05:04.53
their own selves
that even to the point of
00:05:04.57\00:05:06.47
giving up their own consciences
00:05:06.50\00:05:08.17
for the approval of
their husbands and we call that
00:05:08.20\00:05:10.37
"codependency or enabling," Wow!
00:05:10.41\00:05:12.14
and it's common in
both, but it's more common in
00:05:12.17\00:05:15.11
women in my
opinion, in my observation.
00:05:15.14\00:05:17.85
So that third part,
"he will rule over you,"
00:05:17.88\00:05:19.85
is the part that feminists
really don't like to hear.
00:05:19.88\00:05:22.18
I'm probably in
the middle somewhere,
00:05:22.22\00:05:25.35
I'm not into patriarchal
kind of configurations in the
00:05:25.39\00:05:29.69
home - that can be very
oppressive and controlling.
00:05:29.72\00:05:32.79
But I also have to acknowledge
the Bible does say...
00:05:32.83\00:05:35.70
"Women submit
yourself to your husband,"
00:05:35.73\00:05:37.30
so it's interesting
it never says, "Husbands
00:05:37.33\00:05:39.67
make your wives
submit," so it's always
00:05:39.70\00:05:41.64
a voluntary submission. Yes
00:05:41.67\00:05:43.61
And that tells me that
the quality of the submission
00:05:43.64\00:05:46.68
is a free-will submission. Um hm
00:05:46.71\00:05:50.38
And so it seems that
there would be something
00:05:50.41\00:05:52.88
in that husband that
would elicit that submission
00:05:52.91\00:05:55.22
from the wife and I believe
that that's servant leadership.
00:05:55.25\00:05:58.52
It speaks to the
leadership style. Exactly!
00:05:58.55\00:06:01.89
There are so many
leadership styles...
00:06:01.92\00:06:03.49
There's your dictator and then
there's that servant-leader.
00:06:03.53\00:06:08.83
That's exactly... and
that servant-leader makes that
00:06:08.86\00:06:11.90
woman want to submit,
and if you think about it,
00:06:11.93\00:06:14.00
in a dangerous world,
the woman caring for her
00:06:14.04\00:06:16.50
children is a very
vulnerable little unit there,
00:06:16.54\00:06:19.17
and she needs the
protection of a leader as well.
00:06:19.21\00:06:22.34
So that's how I
think it works out.
00:06:22.38\00:06:24.08
I think that originally
we were configured this way,
00:06:24.11\00:06:26.28
as a result of the fall
there an accommodation made,
00:06:26.31\00:06:29.92
but through servant
leadership, the way servant
00:06:29.95\00:06:32.29
leadership works is
it lifts people back up
00:06:32.32\00:06:34.42
to that horizontal configuration
where it's appropriate.
00:06:34.46\00:06:38.39
Obviously, we're
not equal with God,
00:06:38.43\00:06:39.89
so even though He's a
servant-leader in our lives,
00:06:39.93\00:06:41.56
we're never going
to be equal with Him,
00:06:41.60\00:06:42.93
but in that original
design, they were equal
00:06:42.96\00:06:45.97
and I think that's God's ideal
that we should strive for that..
00:06:46.00\00:06:49.20
to obtain as close to
the Edenic model as possible.
00:06:49.24\00:06:53.21
Does that make sense? That does.
00:06:53.24\00:06:55.41
That does make a lot
of sense and I thank God
00:06:55.44\00:06:58.25
that we are
different. Yes, I know!
00:06:58.28\00:07:00.72
I'm thankful for
those differences!
00:07:00.75\00:07:02.08
Makes life much
more interesting!
00:07:02.12\00:07:03.45
It does, you know, you
don't want to be the SAME
00:07:03.49\00:07:06.89
as... yeah, that definitely
doesn't work for me. Yeah!
00:07:06.92\00:07:09.59
But I like that
there are differences,
00:07:09.62\00:07:12.16
and I like that servant-leader.
00:07:12.19\00:07:13.53
And in the healthiest
marriages, there is both
00:07:13.56\00:07:16.30
an equality partnership
kind of spirit between
00:07:16.33\00:07:19.97
the two or they work
together on solving the
00:07:20.00\00:07:22.50
problems that are
entailed in raising a family...
00:07:22.54\00:07:25.04
And at the same time,
there is a respect for those
00:07:25.07\00:07:27.28
differences and that's an
acknowledgement that we're
00:07:27.31\00:07:29.24
not exactly the same and
you're naturally going to prefer
00:07:29.28\00:07:31.38
certain things and I'm going to
naturally prefer other things.
00:07:31.41\00:07:34.22
So a beautiful
quote here, this is from
00:07:35.18\00:07:37.19
"Patriarchs and Prophets"
and it's a book written by
00:07:37.22\00:07:40.52
"Ellen White" and she nailed it.
00:07:40.56\00:07:42.62
She wrote this quite a
while ago, but she said...
00:07:42.66\00:07:44.93
"In the creation, God had made
her, Eve, the equal of Adam;
00:07:44.96\00:07:49.40
had they remained
obedient to God, in harmony with
00:07:49.43\00:07:52.23
His great law of love,
they would ever have been
00:07:52.27\00:07:54.60
in harmony with each other,
but sin had brought discord
00:07:54.64\00:07:58.81
and now their union
could be maintained and harmony
00:07:58.84\00:08:01.68
preserved only by submission
on the part of one or the other.
00:08:01.71\00:08:05.45
Eve had been the
first in transgression;
00:08:05.48\00:08:07.28
she had fallen into temptation
by separating from her
00:08:07.32\00:08:10.32
companion contrary
to the Divine direction.
00:08:10.35\00:08:13.25
It was by her solicitation
that Adam sinned and she was
00:08:13.29\00:08:16.83
now placed in subjection."
00:08:16.86\00:08:18.79
So this happened after the fall.
00:08:18.83\00:08:21.00
It wasn't before the
fall or why would it have been
00:08:21.03\00:08:23.53
assigned after the
fall, but now she was placed
00:08:23.57\00:08:26.07
in subjection.
00:08:26.10\00:08:27.44
Had the principles
enjoined in the Law of God been
00:08:27.47\00:08:31.91
cherished by the fallen race,
this sentence though growing
00:08:31.94\00:08:35.84
out of the results of
sin, would have proved a
00:08:35.88\00:08:38.38
blessing to them,
so God's curses become
00:08:38.41\00:08:40.62
blessings in Christ.
00:08:40.65\00:08:41.98
And it would have
been a blessing to them,
00:08:42.02\00:08:43.69
but man's abuse of the
supremacy thus given him
00:08:43.72\00:08:48.22
has too often
rendered the lot of woman
00:08:48.26\00:08:51.49
very bitter and
made her life a burden.
00:08:51.53\00:08:53.26
So, man has abused that
advantage and it has been
00:08:53.29\00:08:56.46
to the demise and
to the harm of everyone
00:08:56.53\00:08:59.13
involved and
especially the women.
00:08:59.20\00:09:00.87
I think that sexuality
takes us back to Eden in a way,
00:09:00.90\00:09:05.77
and that equality that we
see was God's original design
00:09:05.81\00:09:10.68
is something that we
experience in the full extent
00:09:10.71\00:09:13.35
in an intimate
relationship with our spouse...
00:09:13.38\00:09:16.89
And there are many
opportunities that we have
00:09:16.92\00:09:19.35
in that intimate relationship
to exercise that servant
00:09:19.39\00:09:23.22
leadership, that self-
sacrificing principle within
00:09:23.26\00:09:26.66
the context of the relationship.
00:09:26.70\00:09:29.20
Women have a slower
response cycle than men.
00:09:29.23\00:09:34.57
They just move more
slowly in an intimate situation.
00:09:34.60\00:09:37.97
Women can be 30 to 40 minutes.
00:09:38.01\00:09:40.11
Men, they can be
anywhere from 10 to 15 or 20,
00:09:40.14\00:09:43.85
sometimes 5 if
it's a really young man,
00:09:43.88\00:09:46.01
and so that gives the members
of that couple an opportunity
00:09:46.05\00:09:51.65
to really minister to each other
even though we're different.
00:09:51.69\00:09:55.76
There are other differences;
women are more complicated.
00:09:55.79\00:09:58.89
The word that is used to
describe the creation of woman
00:09:58.93\00:10:02.13
really, literally
means "architect."
00:10:02.16\00:10:04.50
God architected Eve,
if I can say it that way.
00:10:04.53\00:10:06.94
But the word for His
creation of Adam means sculpted,
00:10:06.97\00:10:10.61
like a potter sculpts clay. Okay
00:10:10.64\00:10:12.47
So that "architect," it
sounds a lot more complicated
00:10:12.51\00:10:14.74
to me and women are
more physically complicated
00:10:14.78\00:10:17.35
particularly in the
sexual department...
00:10:17.38\00:10:20.42
And so it behooves men
to learn how women work,
00:10:20.45\00:10:23.39
and how do we learn
how each other works?
00:10:23.42\00:10:25.95
We learn by communication
and by being willing
00:10:25.99\00:10:29.42
to sacrifice for one another
and understand one another
00:10:29.46\00:10:32.99
even though
we're different. Yes!
00:10:33.03\00:10:34.93
Yes, so what you're saying is
there is a certain complexity...
00:10:34.96\00:10:40.37
That's right. ... to
the woman, the way that
00:10:40.40\00:10:42.67
she was formed, the way
that she was architected.
00:10:42.70\00:10:48.24
So there's a certain
complexity there and there are
00:10:48.28\00:10:50.98
differences between
the male and female. Yes
00:10:51.01\00:10:53.82
Okay. And those
differences give us
00:10:53.85\00:10:55.85
an opportunity to serve
one another and to understand
00:10:55.88\00:10:59.29
and empathize and stretch
ourselves to know someone
00:10:59.32\00:11:03.32
who is vastly different from us.
00:11:03.36\00:11:05.56
And that's really the
core of unselfishness,
00:11:05.59\00:11:08.53
is being able to stretch
ourselves out and understand
00:11:08.56\00:11:11.20
someone who is
different than us. Yeah
00:11:11.23\00:11:13.03
And women and men are
very, very different in unique
00:11:13.07\00:11:17.47
and complimentary ways.
Praise the Lord for that!
00:11:17.81\00:11:19.64
In a good way. Yeah, ha, ha, ha.
00:11:19.67\00:11:21.18
Another area is that
women's sexuality is accessed
00:11:21.21\00:11:25.61
through their emotions.
00:11:25.65\00:11:27.02
Men's sexuality is
accessed more directly.
00:11:27.05\00:11:31.02
So, if a man expects a
woman to access the way he does,
00:11:31.05\00:11:35.72
he's going to make her
sometimes feel violated
00:11:35.76\00:11:38.59
or like a sex object. Um hm
00:11:38.63\00:11:41.36
But if a woman, on the
other hand, doesn't appreciate
00:11:41.40\00:11:44.13
the fact that her husband
is just a little more direct
00:11:44.17\00:11:46.57
in his sexuality, she can
make him feel dirty or somehow
00:11:46.60\00:11:50.41
out of line and so
we need to understand
00:11:50.44\00:11:52.47
we're different -
appreciate the differences,
00:11:52.51\00:11:54.74
but be willing to stretch.
00:11:54.78\00:11:56.18
So like finding that
balance. That's right.
00:11:56.21\00:11:58.61
That's gotta be a
difficult thing to find
00:11:58.65\00:12:01.82
is that balance. Yes
00:12:01.85\00:12:03.49
Another area is that men
tend to have a higher sex drive.
00:12:03.52\00:12:06.76
They tend to, you know, have
higher levels of testosterone.
00:12:06.79\00:12:10.49
And in both males and females,
testosterone is what drives
00:12:10.53\00:12:13.80
the sex drive, so men tend
to want sex more than women,
00:12:13.83\00:12:18.17
and this proverbial thing in
marriage like "not tonight dear,
00:12:18.20\00:12:20.90
I have a headache," it's
usually the woman saying that,
00:12:20.94\00:12:23.57
sometimes it's the man,
but usually, stereotypically,
00:12:23.61\00:12:26.51
it's the woman because
women's sex drive tends to be
00:12:26.54\00:12:29.68
a little lower than a
man because they have lower
00:12:29.71\00:12:31.61
levels of testosterone.
00:12:31.65\00:12:33.55
Well what are we
going to do with that?
00:12:33.58\00:12:35.75
For men, sexual fulfillment
in a marriage is very, very
00:12:35.78\00:12:38.19
important, but for
women it's not usually.
00:12:38.22\00:12:41.79
Now it can be different
and I've counseled couples,
00:12:41.82\00:12:44.76
it's amazing how many
times this thing is reversed,
00:12:44.79\00:12:47.40
but I'm talking
about generalities here.
00:12:47.43\00:12:49.53
I'm not trying to
pigeonhole anyone, but generally
00:12:49.56\00:12:52.83
men are gonna have a
higher sex drive, particularly
00:12:52.87\00:12:54.57
when they're younger and what
are we going to do with that?
00:12:54.60\00:12:57.07
Are we going to accommodate
one another and appreciate
00:12:57.11\00:12:59.37
one another and let the
woman subdue the man's sex drive
00:12:59.41\00:13:03.61
and let the man draw the
woman out or are we going to
00:13:03.65\00:13:06.92
put each other down
because somehow being different
00:13:06.95\00:13:08.92
means that you're inferior.
00:13:08.95\00:13:10.29
No, we need to appreciate
and value one another.
00:13:10.32\00:13:13.02
This is my
thinking... Absolutely! Yeah
00:13:13.05\00:13:15.19
So do you think that,
like in those situations
00:13:15.22\00:13:18.16
where it's flipped around,
that there may be some kind
00:13:18.19\00:13:20.93
of testosterone
deficiency in the male?
00:13:20.96\00:13:24.80
There can be...
there can be a sexual
00:13:24.83\00:13:27.34
addiction; there
can be depression;
00:13:27.37\00:13:30.11
there can be medications
that the man can be on that
00:13:30.14\00:13:32.44
can cut down his sex drive.
00:13:32.47\00:13:34.08
There can be a lot
of things going on,
00:13:34.11\00:13:35.61
that's where counseling
comes in - you can kind of
00:13:35.64\00:13:37.65
unpack it and get to the core
00:13:37.68\00:13:39.11
of what's going
on, but it does happen.
00:13:39.15\00:13:41.35
Wow Jen, in this short amount of
time, we really unpacked a lot.
00:13:41.38\00:13:45.59
Give us a quick summary of
what we talked about. Sure.
00:13:45.65\00:13:48.19
God created man and
woman equal, but He created
00:13:48.22\00:13:52.79
them different and sexuality
gives us an opportunity
00:13:52.83\00:13:57.37
to experience both the
equality of the mutuality,
00:13:57.40\00:14:01.37
the horizontality of that
relationship, but also the
00:14:01.40\00:14:05.04
differences. Wow! Yeah
00:14:05.07\00:14:06.78
You know what really
jumped out to me was the whole
00:14:06.81\00:14:08.88
servant leadership
model and that's how Christ
00:14:08.91\00:14:11.18
loves the church and
that's how the man should
00:14:11.21\00:14:13.08
love the woman. Amen
00:14:13.11\00:14:14.45
Well it's been great
sitting here and talking to you.
00:14:14.48\00:14:17.12
And I hope that you will join us
00:14:17.15\00:14:18.95
next time on "Intimate Clarity"
00:14:18.99\00:14:25.13