Jesus said forgive
and you will be forgiven
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.80
and He is
speaking about the woman
00:00:03.83\00:00:06.84
who anointed His feet, He says,
00:00:06.87\00:00:08.94
"I say to you her sins
which are many are forgiven,
00:00:08.97\00:00:13.64
for she loved much."
00:00:13.68\00:00:15.61
The more we love,
the more we forgive,
00:00:15.64\00:00:18.21
the more we are forgiven.
00:00:18.25\00:00:20.05
Please join us today
on Issues and Answers,
00:00:20.08\00:00:22.62
as we talk about
this critical topic,
00:00:22.65\00:00:25.22
Forgiveness.
00:00:25.25\00:00:26.59
Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
00:00:56.69\00:00:58.02
and we welcome you once
again to Issues and Answers.
00:00:58.05\00:01:00.76
As we came on the air
00:01:00.79\00:01:02.26
if you saw a part of
our set was darkened,
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we didn't blow a light,
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we actually have
it darkened on purpose
00:01:06.43\00:01:08.36
because our special guest
returning with us today is Bob
00:01:08.40\00:01:12.37
and we're talking about
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these 12 steps of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
00:01:14.57\00:01:18.11
And he is not a
spokesperson for AA
00:01:18.14\00:01:21.74
because AA has no spokespeople.
00:01:21.78\00:01:24.11
But he's here to share
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his personal experience
of going through these steps
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and they're all
Christian principles
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that are found in these steps.
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So we have
rather darkened his face
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to just honor his anonymity.
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Let me just catch you up-to-date
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if you're just
joining us in these series.
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We had so far talked
about seven of these steps.
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I'm going to read
these steps to you
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in such a way that I am
not talking about an alcoholic.
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You can apply it to alcoholism
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or you can
apply it to addiction,
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but I think these steps
apply to all Christians.
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Listen to this if I
read it in that way.
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The first step is "To
admit we're powerless over sin,
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that our lives are unmanageable.
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We come to believe that
there is a God in heaven,
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a power that is
greater than ourselves
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that can restore us to sanity.
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We make a decision to
turn our will and our lives
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over to the care of God
as we are understanding Him.
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We make a certain
and fearless moral
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inventory of ourselves
saying, Lord search me,
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show me if there
is anything in me
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that's not pleasing to You.
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Then we admit to
God, to ourselves,
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and to other human beings
the exact nature of our wrongs
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and then we are
to be entirely ready
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to have God remove all
these defects of character,
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and we humbly ask Him to
remove our shortcomings."
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These are steps that AA
applies to the alcoholic
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but can you see how they apply
to each and every one of us.
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Well, today we're going to talk
about the topic of forgiveness,
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covering steps 8 and 9.
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Bob, we want to
thank you so much
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for returning
today to this program,
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and I'm just gonna
pass the baton to you
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and let you get rolling.
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Thank you, Shelley,
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it's a pleasure to be back here.
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You know step 8 and 9
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deal on the
surface with making amends,
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first by making a list of
all the people we've harmed.
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Step 8 says made a list of
all the persons we'd harmed
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and may came willing to
make amends to them all.
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And then step 9
is made direct amends
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to such people wherever possible
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except want to do so
would injure them or others.
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But it's far more
than just making amends,
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it's far more than
making things right.
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It has enough of what
to do with forgiveness.
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When I first
approached this step,
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I was
apprehensive to say the least.
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There were lots
of people on my list.
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And as I took my...
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People you had hurt? Yes.
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And people that I'd
talked about in my fifth step.
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So I used my fourth step
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which was the list of
all my resentments and fears
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and the things I was
feeling guilty and ashamed off.
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And I used that as a
bases to start this list.
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But in our literature it says,
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we need to make
an exhaustive list.
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We need to ransack our memory
and go as far back as we can.
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Every little slide,
every hurt, everything
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that I caused pain for
others that I could remember,
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I needed to write
those things down.
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Now of course, you know,
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I hurt my mom's
feelings a million times.
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One time would be enough to know
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that I hurt her
feelings over this or that.
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But if there were instances
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where I remember
there was a real scene
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or something that
came back to my mind,
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I would write it down.
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My sponsor wisely
when I did my fourth step,
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and I did my eighth
step reminded me to pray
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before I got started.
00:05:06.97\00:05:08.30
He says, I want you to
pray and ask God to remind you
00:05:08.34\00:05:11.14
of everything you
need to write down.
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Invoke God's
help in other words.
00:05:13.61\00:05:18.95
He asked me to
write at least 30 minutes
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and no more than an hour
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because he says, you
know, you can exhaust yourself
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if you just spend
all your energy in this.
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And he advised that I
not let more than a day go by
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without writing on this list,
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because I needed to get it done
00:05:32.43\00:05:34.60
and if I let any
length of time pass,
00:05:34.63\00:05:37.40
it would just seem
like a daunting task
00:05:37.43\00:05:39.53
that I didn't want to deal with.
00:05:39.57\00:05:40.90
So at the end of
it also he would say,
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"Make sure you pray and ask God
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to remove those
thoughts from your head."
00:05:45.51\00:05:47.78
You know, I had
an image in my mind
00:05:47.81\00:05:49.88
of ebonies or
scrooges story, you know,
00:05:49.91\00:05:52.61
the ghost of Christmas past
00:05:52.65\00:05:54.52
that was ragging all
these chains with him.
00:05:54.55\00:05:57.09
And the idea that if I'm
going to look at every misdeed
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I've ever committed in
my life that I can remember,
00:06:01.99\00:06:04.79
I can keep them all on top of me
00:06:04.83\00:06:06.56
and just suffer
under that weight,
00:06:06.59\00:06:08.76
and that was not
the purpose of this.
00:06:08.80\00:06:11.07
It was to take a really good
look at what my life had done,
00:06:11.10\00:06:16.10
to look at the
wake of broken hearts
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and hurt
feelings that I had left
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in the wake of my life,
in my self-centeredness,
00:06:22.84\00:06:25.48
in my
selfishness, my dishonesty,
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and what my fear had done to me
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to make me lash out at
others, to hurt other people.
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So I started writing this list
but very quickly it was obvious
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that there were some
people that had hurt me as well.
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Sometimes what I did to
them was a result of something
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they did to me
in the first place.
00:06:46.77\00:06:48.87
And now I had a different
problem I had to deal with.
00:06:48.90\00:06:51.34
I had to deal with
forgiveness and one of our books
00:06:51.37\00:06:55.14
"Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions"
00:06:55.18\00:06:57.01
talks more specifically
about each one of the step.
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It's a commentary if you will,
00:06:59.75\00:07:01.45
on the original directions
that were given in the book
00:07:01.48\00:07:04.35
"Alcoholics Anonymous,"
00:07:04.39\00:07:05.89
and one line in there
stuck out for me and it said,
00:07:05.92\00:07:09.49
"As we prepare to
go and ask forgiveness
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for all the things
we've done to others.
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It makes sense to begin by
forgiving them one and all."
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And that just opened
my eyes, I thought oh, oh,
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I'm in trouble.
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Because as
probably all of us have,
00:07:28.28\00:07:31.05
there are some
hurts that are so deep,
00:07:31.08\00:07:33.65
that there is no way
or no way I could see
00:07:33.68\00:07:36.38
that I could ever
forgive some of those things
00:07:36.42\00:07:38.82
that others had done to me.
00:07:38.85\00:07:41.12
And I was left with
this terrible quandary,
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you know, I
remember praying about it
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and it just wouldn't go away.
00:07:46.59\00:07:47.93
I remember
trying to forgive people
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but I just didn't
have it to give them,
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and I thought how
am I going to do this.
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I cannot manufacture
this kind of forgiveness
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and I'm happy to say
00:07:58.41\00:07:59.91
and I'm not sure if
somebody told me this
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or if I read it somewhere,
00:08:02.24\00:08:04.35
I certainly not
negate literature,
00:08:04.38\00:08:06.28
but at some point I
was, I had the understanding
00:08:06.31\00:08:10.45
that in order to forgive
those deep pains that we have,
00:08:10.49\00:08:16.49
if we don't have it in us
00:08:16.52\00:08:17.86
to give that
kind of forgiveness,
00:08:17.89\00:08:19.23
then the only way
we can go is to say,
00:08:19.26\00:08:22.03
"God, please give me this
forgiveness for this person."
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Absolutely.
00:08:25.23\00:08:26.57
And somehow in the process
of taking that forgiveness
00:08:26.60\00:08:30.41
and passing it on to them,
00:08:30.44\00:08:33.41
it cleaned out my
heart of the resentment,
00:08:33.44\00:08:37.38
and the anger, and the pain.
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You know, I often wonder
00:08:42.55\00:08:45.49
if God asked us to do
something that we cannot do,
00:08:45.52\00:08:50.23
He asks us to forgive.
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I'm reminded of in Matthew 6
00:08:52.93\00:08:55.16
at the end of the
Lord's Prayer it says,
00:08:55.20\00:08:57.40
"If you forgive others,
then you will be forgiven.
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But if you do
not forgive others,
00:09:01.24\00:09:02.94
your heavenly Father
will not forgive you."
00:09:02.97\00:09:05.41
I wonder if it's that
He won't or if He can't.
00:09:05.44\00:09:09.94
I don't believe
He can't forgive us
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if we have a root of
bitterness in our heart,
00:09:11.75\00:09:14.42
because whatever He
gives us will just disintegrate
00:09:14.45\00:09:18.55
because of that
anger and that resentment.
00:09:18.59\00:09:21.22
It's like
putting a drop of water
00:09:21.26\00:09:23.43
on a really hot skillet.
00:09:23.46\00:09:24.79
It's going to explode.
It's not going to stay there.
00:09:24.83\00:09:27.86
It's not going to
cool anything off.
00:09:27.90\00:09:29.96
And, you know,
00:09:30.00\00:09:31.50
nobody with that kind of
hatred can go into heaven,
00:09:31.53\00:09:34.14
can be happy in heaven.
00:09:34.17\00:09:35.94
So I know that
God long to give us
00:09:35.97\00:09:40.11
that kind of
forgiveness for others
00:09:40.14\00:09:42.24
but there are some things
00:09:42.28\00:09:43.68
that we cannot
manufacture ourselves.
00:09:43.71\00:09:45.71
And I don't believe
the true forgiveness
00:09:45.75\00:09:48.02
is something we can manufacture.
00:09:48.05\00:09:49.78
It's something
we can choose to do
00:09:49.82\00:09:52.42
as a deliberate choice to
receive forgiveness from God
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and to pass it
on to that person.
00:09:56.12\00:09:58.13
At least that's
been my experience.
00:09:58.16\00:09:59.83
One I think
that's true for everyone.
00:09:59.86\00:10:01.50
I don't think that
it's just as Romans 55 says
00:10:01.53\00:10:05.50
that God pours out
His love into our hearts
00:10:05.53\00:10:08.90
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
00:10:08.94\00:10:10.74
and what I read from Luke 7:47
at the beginning of the program
00:10:10.77\00:10:15.14
is that we have to,
00:10:15.18\00:10:17.08
if we love much,
we are forgiven much,
00:10:17.11\00:10:19.18
it's this idea that as His
love pours into our hearts,
00:10:19.21\00:10:23.99
we can look at
others through His eyes.
00:10:24.02\00:10:27.12
It is from Him that we receive
00:10:27.16\00:10:30.13
the forgiveness.
00:10:30.16\00:10:31.49
You know, Bobby, I was
praying for someone once that,
00:10:31.53\00:10:35.80
well actually,
excuse me, I was praying
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.60
and I was holding a
deep resentment in my heart.
00:10:38.63\00:10:42.27
Someone who had
cost my husband and I
00:10:42.30\00:10:46.24
over a quarter of
a million dollars.
00:10:46.27\00:10:47.88
Someone who
threatened to kill me
00:10:47.91\00:10:50.45
actually said he had, you know,
00:10:50.48\00:10:53.05
a team out to get me
while I was in Europe
00:10:53.08\00:10:55.65
and so I had this for
the first time in my life
00:10:55.68\00:10:59.35
I experienced hatred.
00:10:59.39\00:11:01.62
I've never hated anyone before.
00:11:01.66\00:11:03.53
So I found myself praying
00:11:03.56\00:11:05.59
and as I am praying and
asking God for forgiveness,
00:11:05.63\00:11:08.70
the still small
voice of the Lord,
00:11:08.73\00:11:10.50
you know, where
He is impressing,
00:11:10.53\00:11:12.27
the Holy Spirit impresses
the thought upon your mind.
00:11:12.30\00:11:14.97
This is the
thought that came to me.
00:11:15.00\00:11:16.94
I'll forgive you
if you'll forgive him.
00:11:16.97\00:11:19.47
And it's like, you
got to be kidding me.
00:11:19.51\00:11:22.11
The long and the short of it is,
00:11:22.14\00:11:24.51
the Lord continued to,
00:11:24.55\00:11:28.48
I mean, He impressed
that so strongly in my heart
00:11:28.52\00:11:30.65
that I knew I had to
00:11:30.69\00:11:32.15
and I thought, I don't know how.
00:11:32.19\00:11:34.16
He said, pray for his salvation
00:11:34.19\00:11:38.56
and I didn't want to
pray for his salvation.
00:11:38.59\00:11:41.76
That's how much I...
00:11:41.80\00:11:44.07
the disdained I
felt for this person.
00:11:44.10\00:11:46.30
It's like he doesn't
deserve your salvation.
00:11:46.33\00:11:49.60
Finally I told the
Lord, okay, I will do it
00:11:49.64\00:11:52.71
but you know my
heart's not in it.
00:11:52.74\00:11:54.38
Interestingly as I began
praying for his salvation,
00:11:54.41\00:11:58.88
the Lord poured his love
into my heart for that person,
00:11:58.91\00:12:02.28
I saw him as that
lost and suffering person.
00:12:02.32\00:12:04.62
I could, I don't
believe I would have ever been
00:12:04.65\00:12:06.69
able to forgive
him in my own power.
00:12:06.72\00:12:10.99
You know, if
somebody has been molested
00:12:11.03\00:12:14.43
especially if
there's been incest.
00:12:14.46\00:12:16.46
How does one forgive,
00:12:16.50\00:12:18.60
say a father who
has molested them,
00:12:18.63\00:12:22.37
it has to be a
supernatural power,
00:12:22.40\00:12:25.27
it has to be from God.
00:12:25.31\00:12:26.64
And it is.
00:12:26.68\00:12:28.01
I do see that quite a bit.
00:12:28.04\00:12:29.78
There are an awful lot of people
00:12:29.81\00:12:31.15
in Alcoholics Anonymous
who have been molested.
00:12:31.18\00:12:34.15
In fact the
statistics are just daunting.
00:12:34.18\00:12:36.82
I say at least
75% of the girls in AA
00:12:36.85\00:12:40.76
and at least 50% of the men
00:12:40.79\00:12:43.16
and that's an enormous amount
of heartache and resentment.
00:12:43.19\00:12:48.66
It's very difficult
for them to get pass that.
00:12:48.70\00:12:51.10
Surely.
00:12:51.13\00:12:53.47
And yet they do. They do.
00:12:53.50\00:12:55.70
And they go on to
live not only happy lives
00:12:55.74\00:12:58.71
but to be able to pray
00:12:58.74\00:13:00.08
for the people
who have harmed them,
00:13:00.11\00:13:02.08
to see them as sick human beings
00:13:02.11\00:13:05.21
in need of
their own higher power
00:13:05.25\00:13:07.88
to save them from
what has happened.
00:13:07.92\00:13:12.39
I want to talk
a little bit about
00:13:12.42\00:13:14.52
the
deliberateness of forgiveness.
00:13:14.56\00:13:17.53
We need to be
deliberate about forgiveness,
00:13:17.56\00:13:20.06
I believe that.
00:13:20.10\00:13:21.43
There are a couple of stories
that I want to tell real quick.
00:13:21.46\00:13:23.97
One is about Clara Barton,
00:13:24.00\00:13:25.33
she was of course the
lady that started the Red Cross
00:13:25.37\00:13:29.50
and she was
lecturing apparently in Europe
00:13:29.54\00:13:31.67
as I remember the
story, I hope I have it right.
00:13:31.71\00:13:34.41
And a man showed up
and listened to her lecture
00:13:34.44\00:13:37.45
that it harmed her
in a very serious way
00:13:37.48\00:13:41.02
years before.
00:13:41.05\00:13:42.38
And he walked up to
her and spoke with her
00:13:42.42\00:13:44.65
and thanked her for her
lecture and talked to her.
00:13:44.69\00:13:47.09
And she was very gracious to him
00:13:47.12\00:13:48.72
and her friend, another
lady there that was her friend,
00:13:48.76\00:13:52.33
as soon as he
walked away she says
00:13:52.36\00:13:54.10
how could you ever
even speak to this man
00:13:54.13\00:13:56.67
after what he did to you.
00:13:56.70\00:13:59.00
And Clara turned to her
and she smiled and she says,
00:13:59.03\00:14:02.70
I distinctly
remember having forgiven,
00:14:02.74\00:14:06.41
forgotten all about that.
00:14:06.44\00:14:07.78
I distinctly remember
forgetting all about that.
00:14:07.81\00:14:10.48
That's good. We
have to deliberate.
00:14:10.51\00:14:12.81
Another story that comes to mind
00:14:12.85\00:14:14.85
is one that Ruth Graham
wrote in one of her books
00:14:14.88\00:14:19.45
and she has talked about
this before about a Bedouin.
00:14:19.49\00:14:24.29
An old man who was
living, you know, in that,
00:14:24.33\00:14:27.83
in his tent and somebody
came running into his tent
00:14:27.86\00:14:31.43
and asked for refuge
00:14:31.47\00:14:33.03
because he was being
pursued by band of other men.
00:14:33.07\00:14:37.41
And they came to
the door of his tent
00:14:37.44\00:14:39.04
and the old man
stood in the door
00:14:39.07\00:14:40.84
and they said, "You
need to send him out."
00:14:40.88\00:14:43.38
And he said, "No, he's
asked for my protection,
00:14:43.41\00:14:45.48
I will protect him."
00:14:45.51\00:14:46.85
And he says, "But
you don't understand,
00:14:46.88\00:14:48.48
this man killed somebody."
00:14:48.52\00:14:50.45
And the old man said,
00:14:50.49\00:14:51.89
"Until he gets a fair
trial, I will protect him."
00:14:51.92\00:14:54.36
And he says, "Old
man, you don't understand,
00:14:54.39\00:14:56.79
he killed your son."
00:14:56.83\00:14:59.66
And the old man stood there
for a moment, visibly shaken
00:14:59.69\00:15:03.90
and then he looked
the accusers in the eye
00:15:03.93\00:15:06.23
and he said, "Then
he will be my son."
00:15:06.27\00:15:09.97
That's forgiveness at a level
00:15:10.01\00:15:13.27
that I don't understand
00:15:13.31\00:15:16.14
and yet I know it exists
00:15:16.18\00:15:17.55
and I know from
the stories we hear
00:15:17.58\00:15:20.05
about people who have
children or loved ones murdered
00:15:20.08\00:15:24.55
and they go to the prison
00:15:24.59\00:15:25.95
and they care
about that person more
00:15:25.99\00:15:29.96
than they care about hanging on
to that hatred and that anger.
00:15:29.99\00:15:33.90
All of this is to say
00:15:33.93\00:15:35.26
that after writing a
very long list of people
00:15:35.30\00:15:38.93
that I had harmed
00:15:38.97\00:15:40.30
and having
experienced that forgiveness
00:15:40.34\00:15:43.10
that only God
could give me to pass on
00:15:43.14\00:15:45.51
to certain people in
my life who had hurt me.
00:15:45.54\00:15:50.08
I had the opportunity to
start making those amends.
00:15:50.11\00:15:53.62
And I was surprised,
most of them went very well.
00:15:53.65\00:15:58.32
Most of the
people that I had harmed,
00:15:58.35\00:16:00.39
even the ones I'd owed
money to or harmed deeply
00:16:00.42\00:16:04.13
were more than gracious.
00:16:04.16\00:16:05.96
They were so happy
to see that, you know,
00:16:05.99\00:16:08.50
and then these are people
00:16:08.53\00:16:09.86
I thought would
yell and scream at me,
00:16:09.90\00:16:11.37
but they were
genuinely happy to see
00:16:11.40\00:16:13.74
that my life had turned around.
00:16:13.77\00:16:16.87
They were a few
that were a little cool
00:16:16.91\00:16:20.28
and I did my very best.
00:16:20.31\00:16:22.64
I have to tell
you that making amends
00:16:22.68\00:16:24.58
means making it
right, if at all possible,
00:16:24.61\00:16:28.78
to not only mend
the relationship,
00:16:28.82\00:16:31.52
not only say, "I'm sorry"
00:16:31.55\00:16:33.05
it's not about saying I'm sorry.
00:16:33.09\00:16:34.76
Restitution. It's restitution.
00:16:34.79\00:16:37.13
If I owed money, I
needed to pay it back.
00:16:37.16\00:16:39.73
And in my case there
were several instances
00:16:39.76\00:16:42.66
where creditors were looking
for me and all the rest in.
00:16:42.70\00:16:46.00
I chose to pay it
back with interest,
00:16:46.03\00:16:47.80
not everyone does.
00:16:47.84\00:16:49.20
I think the AA says
00:16:49.24\00:16:50.57
make the best
deal you can with them.
00:16:50.61\00:16:52.77
But in my case, you know,
00:16:52.81\00:16:54.41
when they offered
me a discounted rate
00:16:54.44\00:16:56.21
or you only have
to pay back so much,
00:16:56.24\00:16:58.25
I chose to go back and pay
them everything I owed them.
00:16:58.28\00:17:02.45
And that was
what I needed to do.
00:17:02.48\00:17:05.05
I'm not telling
anyone else to do that,
00:17:05.09\00:17:06.76
but I believe
that's the principle.
00:17:06.79\00:17:08.82
There are people
I know who have paid
00:17:08.86\00:17:10.29
hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of dollars back
00:17:10.33\00:17:13.26
over very long periods of time.
00:17:13.29\00:17:15.63
But they are faithful in making
those payments, to make that,
00:17:15.66\00:17:19.50
to make that right and
they are truly free people.
00:17:19.53\00:17:24.24
And I think the
Lord honors that.
00:17:24.27\00:17:26.71
I won't use his name
but I worked for someone
00:17:26.74\00:17:29.24
who had a
syndicated financial column
00:17:29.28\00:17:31.68
and he lived in
the Colorado area.
00:17:31.71\00:17:35.68
When he, or may be
it was Salt Lake City
00:17:35.72\00:17:38.45
but anyway, when he had been
00:17:38.49\00:17:42.02
in early in his business career,
00:17:42.06\00:17:44.59
he had to file
bankruptcy because he got into
00:17:44.63\00:17:48.73
a lot of trouble,
millions of dollars.
00:17:48.76\00:17:50.33
I think it was like $8 million
but he determined in his heart,
00:17:50.37\00:17:54.97
he would make a comeback
and he did and you know what?
00:17:55.00\00:17:58.77
Even though it had
been legally wiped away,
00:17:58.81\00:18:01.31
he went back and he paid
every penny to the creditors
00:18:01.34\00:18:06.65
who had the slate had
been wiped clean in bankruptcy
00:18:06.68\00:18:10.19
and the Lord blessed him
in such an incredible way,
00:18:10.22\00:18:13.69
I mean he became
a very wealthy man
00:18:13.72\00:18:16.46
because of it I
believe it and I think,
00:18:16.49\00:18:18.76
you know, obviously
restitution is a principle
00:18:18.79\00:18:22.13
that we find in the Bible.
00:18:22.16\00:18:24.07
And it's quite amazing.
00:18:24.10\00:18:27.37
My dad likes to
tell me that, you know,
00:18:27.40\00:18:30.91
when we forgive somebody,
00:18:30.94\00:18:35.28
the biblical
principles found in the Bible,
00:18:35.31\00:18:38.11
the principles found
in the Bible indicate
00:18:38.15\00:18:41.32
that we are duty bound
to do everything we can
00:18:41.35\00:18:46.22
to redeem that person.
00:18:46.25\00:18:48.49
If they have harmed
us and we forgive them,
00:18:48.52\00:18:52.89
we need to go back
and do everything we can
00:18:52.93\00:18:55.00
for that person.
00:18:55.03\00:18:56.43
That's a concept that's
foreign to today's society.
00:18:56.46\00:19:00.14
You know, today society, I
like to say that, you know,
00:19:00.17\00:19:03.41
in America anyway we
play baseball forgiveness.
00:19:03.44\00:19:06.41
Three strikes and
you're out, you know.
00:19:06.44\00:19:08.88
I will never speak to you again.
00:19:08.91\00:19:10.45
I will give you three chances,
00:19:10.48\00:19:12.08
if you burn me
once that's my bad.
00:19:12.11\00:19:14.82
Burn me twice I'm really dumb
00:19:14.85\00:19:16.99
and burn me three
times, I'm done with you.
00:19:17.02\00:19:19.85
You know, Jesus Himself
said, "Forgive them 70 times 7"
00:19:19.89\00:19:23.16
and that's just getting started.
00:19:23.19\00:19:25.39
That's, these are hard concepts
and I'm happy to tell you
00:19:25.43\00:19:29.53
that people in
AA really struggle,
00:19:29.56\00:19:32.07
but really get a
deep understanding
00:19:32.10\00:19:34.34
about this
forgiveness, and again,
00:19:34.37\00:19:36.17
probably because we've
been forgiven so much ourselves
00:19:36.20\00:19:40.51
that we become
people who can forgive
00:19:40.54\00:19:44.81
and who choose to forgive,
deliberately choose to forgive.
00:19:44.85\00:19:47.98
Right, that's where
the healing comes...
00:19:48.02\00:19:49.48
Absolutely.
00:19:49.52\00:19:50.85
I mean, this is, if you don't
get to the root of the problem
00:19:50.89\00:19:53.52
in most people it's the pain of
unforgiveness, the bitterness,
00:19:53.56\00:19:57.73
the resentment.
00:19:57.76\00:19:59.46
You can maybe cut
off the fruit of it,
00:19:59.49\00:20:02.86
stop the behavior of alcoholism,
00:20:02.90\00:20:05.03
but if you don't
get to the root of it,
00:20:05.07\00:20:07.00
and it's true for you and me,
00:20:07.04\00:20:08.37
doesn't matter
what the problem is,
00:20:08.40\00:20:09.74
we'll talk about alcoholism,
00:20:09.77\00:20:11.47
but put any
problematic behavior in there
00:20:11.51\00:20:14.68
and that's true.
00:20:14.71\00:20:17.05
Here's something
that's interesting
00:20:17.08\00:20:19.65
when you know the steps 8 and 9,
00:20:19.68\00:20:22.18
"Make a list of all
the persons you've harmed,
00:20:22.22\00:20:25.12
be willing to make amends
00:20:25.15\00:20:26.62
and try to make
these direct amends."
00:20:26.65\00:20:29.06
I just believe,
00:20:29.09\00:20:30.43
and I haven't thought
of this story in so long.
00:20:30.46\00:20:32.53
There are probably people
who are watching from home
00:20:32.56\00:20:34.96
and you're thinking,
00:20:35.00\00:20:36.33
"Well, I have never
really done anything
00:20:36.36\00:20:37.73
that I would need
to make this list for."
00:20:37.77\00:20:39.87
I remember when I
went back to school
00:20:39.90\00:20:42.87
or back to college
when I was 28-29 years old
00:20:42.90\00:20:47.01
and one night I was praying
and I was reading my Bible,
00:20:47.04\00:20:52.45
it's about 10 o'clock at night,
00:20:52.48\00:20:53.95
and I came upon the passage
00:20:53.98\00:20:55.72
where Jesus was
asking the rich man, He said,
00:20:55.75\00:21:02.46
"Why do you call me good?
No one's good except God."
00:21:02.49\00:21:05.16
Well, it confused me.
00:21:05.19\00:21:06.53
I didn't realize that
Jesus was testing him to see,
00:21:06.56\00:21:09.20
are you saying I am God?
00:21:09.23\00:21:10.60
That didn't, I am thinking,
oh, wait a minute, you are,
00:21:10.63\00:21:14.47
why would you even ask
that 'cause you are God.
00:21:14.50\00:21:16.40
But then I am going,
00:21:16.44\00:21:17.84
but Lord
everybody's always telling me
00:21:17.87\00:21:20.18
what a good person I am.
00:21:20.21\00:21:22.18
They're telling me
I have a gift of helps
00:21:22.21\00:21:24.05
and I'm always doing
this for that for strangers
00:21:24.08\00:21:27.35
and da da da da da.
00:21:27.38\00:21:29.28
And, so I said,
00:21:29.32\00:21:30.72
"Lord, what do you
mean only God is good."
00:21:30.75\00:21:33.49
People tell me how good I
am, show me if I'm not good.
00:21:33.52\00:21:37.89
This is like 10:30
to 11 o'clock at night
00:21:37.93\00:21:40.43
and by 6 o'clock in the morning,
00:21:40.46\00:21:44.10
it was an amazing thing.
00:21:44.13\00:21:45.80
It was almost
like God was taking me
00:21:45.83\00:21:47.80
on this panoramic,
cinematic experience
00:21:47.84\00:21:52.67
showing me where
something's I thought
00:21:52.71\00:21:55.91
I was doing that were good.
00:21:55.94\00:21:58.55
I was doing 'cause
I needed affirmation
00:21:58.58\00:22:01.05
or I wanted to look good myself.
00:22:01.08\00:22:04.89
I mean, He was just
taking me through things
00:22:04.92\00:22:08.72
that I believe that all of us
00:22:08.76\00:22:10.93
have a higher opinion
of ourselves than we ought.
00:22:10.96\00:22:14.20
If we can see our
self in God's eyes
00:22:14.23\00:22:16.53
would realize there's probably
00:22:16.56\00:22:19.33
every one of us need
to make a list like this
00:22:19.37\00:22:22.14
and think, Lord, show
me where I've hurt somebody
00:22:22.17\00:22:24.44
especially if we
call ourselves Christians.
00:22:24.47\00:22:27.18
Because we can do
things that harm the reputation
00:22:27.21\00:22:32.81
in the name of Christ,
you know, as Christians,
00:22:32.85\00:22:35.48
that we're supposed
to be reflecting His love
00:22:35.52\00:22:37.55
and if we are,
00:22:37.59\00:22:38.92
if we were
insensitive for doing something,
00:22:38.95\00:22:41.19
then we need to make amends for.
00:22:41.22\00:22:43.39
There is, there is no
doubt that that's true
00:22:43.43\00:22:46.06
and you know another
thing that strikes me is
00:22:46.09\00:22:49.16
when we are the
recipients of so much grace
00:22:49.20\00:22:52.03
from the people that
we ask forgiveness for.
00:22:52.07\00:22:57.24
You know, it
can't help but changes.
00:22:57.27\00:23:00.74
In the AA, a lot of meetings
you will hear people read
00:23:00.78\00:23:03.38
what they commonly
refer to as the 12 promises,
00:23:03.41\00:23:07.02
and I'm not sure
I can quote them all
00:23:07.05\00:23:09.88
right off the top off my
head, I should be able to but,
00:23:09.92\00:23:13.82
it's really 9 step promises.
00:23:13.86\00:23:16.62
It says if we're painstaking
00:23:16.66\00:23:18.66
about this phase
of our development,
00:23:18.69\00:23:20.83
we will be amazed
before we're half way through.
00:23:20.86\00:23:23.63
We're going to know a new
freedom and a new happiness.
00:23:23.67\00:23:26.37
We will not regret the past
00:23:26.40\00:23:27.80
nor wish to shut the door on it.
00:23:27.84\00:23:29.80
We will
comprehend the words serenity
00:23:29.84\00:23:31.71
and we will know peace,
00:23:31.74\00:23:33.11
no matter how far
down the scale we've gone,
00:23:33.14\00:23:35.41
we will see how our
experience can benefit others.
00:23:35.44\00:23:38.41
That feeling of uselessness
and self pity will disappear.
00:23:38.45\00:23:42.42
Our whole outlook
on life will change...
00:23:42.45\00:23:44.29
Condemnation is gone.
00:23:44.32\00:23:46.05
And we will suddenly
realize that God is doing for us
00:23:46.09\00:23:49.46
what we could
not do for ourselves.
00:23:49.49\00:23:51.86
And then it says, are
these extravagant promises?
00:23:51.89\00:23:55.23
We think not.
00:23:55.26\00:23:57.43
They will always
materialize if we work for them.
00:23:57.47\00:24:01.30
You know, sometimes
quickly and sometimes slowly.
00:24:01.34\00:24:05.91
The amazing amount of energy
00:24:05.94\00:24:08.74
that these steps
release into our lives,
00:24:08.78\00:24:13.01
into our
spiritual lives that growth,
00:24:13.05\00:24:15.25
the spiritual
growth that I see in people
00:24:15.28\00:24:18.05
who are
practicing these principles
00:24:18.09\00:24:21.46
and putting the effort
00:24:21.49\00:24:22.82
into making these
amends is amazing,
00:24:22.86\00:24:25.06
I mean it's like
they are transformed
00:24:25.09\00:24:28.03
and I had that experience
00:24:28.06\00:24:30.27
and I suddenly was
sitting in a meeting
00:24:30.30\00:24:32.47
and they were reading
these steps, these promises
00:24:32.50\00:24:35.60
and I was stunned.
00:24:35.64\00:24:36.97
In fact I was moved to tears.
00:24:37.01\00:24:38.44
I thought, oh,
it's happened to me.
00:24:38.47\00:24:41.31
You know, they sounded like
00:24:41.34\00:24:42.68
something that
might happen someday,
00:24:42.71\00:24:45.21
other times I thought, well,
they've all happened already
00:24:45.25\00:24:47.75
but it was overwhelming
to realize in an instant
00:24:47.78\00:24:51.65
that all these things
were happening in my life
00:24:51.69\00:24:54.19
and God was doing for me
00:24:54.22\00:24:55.56
what I couldn't
possibly do for myself.
00:24:55.59\00:24:57.99
From a selfish, self-centered,
00:24:58.03\00:25:00.13
frightened, lonely,
miserable, alcoholic
00:25:00.16\00:25:04.70
to a man who could
walk up to somebody
00:25:04.73\00:25:07.44
and look them in the
eye, make those amends.
00:25:07.47\00:25:11.47
And never have
to cross the street,
00:25:11.51\00:25:14.08
walk into another room,
00:25:14.11\00:25:15.44
avoid somebody
that's looking in there.
00:25:15.48\00:25:16.81
Guilt, shame, condemnation
went out the window.
00:25:16.85\00:25:18.38
Gone, absolutely gone.
00:25:18.41\00:25:20.88
And today, you know,
that's how I am used to living.
00:25:20.92\00:25:24.25
You know, the next
step will talk about,
00:25:24.29\00:25:26.22
talks about keeping
that going in step 10.
00:25:26.25\00:25:29.56
But today, you know,
I don't avoid anybody.
00:25:29.59\00:25:34.03
Even the people that I may not
care much about their behavior,
00:25:34.06\00:25:37.63
I don't avoid them.
00:25:37.67\00:25:39.03
I can look at them
through other eyes, you know,
00:25:39.07\00:25:42.24
I can remember that there are...
00:25:42.27\00:25:44.47
My sponsor told
me one time, he says,
00:25:44.51\00:25:47.08
when I was early in
recovery, he says, you know,
00:25:47.11\00:25:49.68
I might come up and
say, oh, you met so and so,
00:25:49.71\00:25:52.15
they're one of
those summer people
00:25:52.18\00:25:54.58
and the person I am referring to
00:25:54.62\00:25:56.32
isn't gonna know
what I'm talking about
00:25:56.35\00:25:57.82
but for you it's code word for
some are sicker than others so,
00:25:57.85\00:26:02.36
but, you know, even when I meet
summer people on the street,
00:26:02.39\00:26:05.39
so to speak, I
don't need to avoid them.
00:26:05.43\00:26:09.90
I have nothing to
feel guilty or shameful
00:26:09.93\00:26:12.33
and I can see
them through God's eyes
00:26:12.37\00:26:15.90
as people who are struggling,
00:26:15.94\00:26:18.01
people who as we
referred to another program
00:26:18.04\00:26:20.41
sometimes are drive drunks,
00:26:20.44\00:26:22.64
you know, that's probably
the saddest thing for me
00:26:22.68\00:26:24.85
is to see somebody
that is not drinking
00:26:24.88\00:26:28.05
but nothing's
changed in their life.
00:26:28.08\00:26:30.59
And to know that
they're missing out on the life
00:26:30.62\00:26:33.46
I that I have today.
00:26:33.49\00:26:34.82
You know, I have the life,
00:26:34.86\00:26:36.19
I like to say
that second to none
00:26:36.22\00:26:37.56
and better than most, you know,
00:26:37.59\00:26:39.73
I really don't have a
second class life today.
00:26:39.76\00:26:42.80
I have a disease
that is always there
00:26:42.83\00:26:45.93
but you know
what I'm grateful for,
00:26:45.97\00:26:47.30
because it helps me toe the line
00:26:47.34\00:26:49.50
and stay close to the one
00:26:49.54\00:26:51.44
that handles my
alcoholism everyday.
00:26:51.47\00:26:54.94
And as long as it's in His hand,
00:26:54.98\00:26:56.64
I've nothing to fear.
00:26:56.68\00:26:58.11
I'm not going to get drunk
00:26:58.15\00:27:00.05
and that's not being
cocky, that's being confident.
00:27:00.08\00:27:03.85
And I can have
that kind of confidence
00:27:03.89\00:27:06.19
because of these steps
00:27:06.22\00:27:07.56
and because God's crazy about me
00:27:07.59\00:27:09.82
as Cheri Peters
likes to say, you know.
00:27:09.86\00:27:11.36
Yes, amen. Amen.
00:27:11.39\00:27:13.76
And it's just, I'm so
thankful that you are here
00:27:13.80\00:27:16.97
sharing these steps with us
00:27:17.00\00:27:18.63
because we can see
the power of these steps
00:27:18.67\00:27:22.10
and just want to
encourage you, you know,
00:27:22.14\00:27:24.67
as you said on a
previous program, Bob,
00:27:24.71\00:27:27.48
that there are more
people, more alcoholics
00:27:27.51\00:27:32.58
who have been healed in
church than anywhere else.
00:27:32.61\00:27:37.19
But this is the
last house on the block
00:27:37.22\00:27:40.82
for people that it
didn't work in church,
00:27:40.86\00:27:43.09
maybe the church
has offended them,
00:27:43.12\00:27:45.06
maybe the church
has wounded them,
00:27:45.09\00:27:46.53
or maybe they don't
believe in the Lord.
00:27:46.56\00:27:49.20
One thing that's
interesting is that
00:27:49.23\00:27:50.73
people who become
involved with this
00:27:50.77\00:27:52.83
can get beyond that
00:27:52.87\00:27:55.80
and actually get
in touch with God.
00:27:55.84\00:27:58.31
Thank you so much for
being here with us today.
00:27:58.34\00:28:01.14
We know that you're
gonna be coming back
00:28:01.18\00:28:03.01
to our next program,
00:28:03.04\00:28:04.81
we would be
talking about steps 10-12.
00:28:04.85\00:28:07.08
So thank you so much
for those of you at home.
00:28:07.12\00:28:10.39
If you know someone
00:28:10.42\00:28:12.35
who is
struggling with alcoholism,
00:28:12.39\00:28:15.56
just want to recommend
00:28:15.59\00:28:16.93
that you point
them to these programs.
00:28:16.96\00:28:19.56
Thank you, bye.
00:28:19.59\00:28:20.93