Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Karen Nicola
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000469A
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00:01 Part of the mission of Jesus Christ
00:02 was to heal the broken hearted 00:04 and he has passed that mission on to us. 00:07 Join us today on Issues and Answers 00:09 so that you can learn 00:11 how to become a skilful comforter. 00:46 Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn 00:47 and welcome again to Issues and Answers. 00:49 I'm just impressed to start this program 00:51 by reading something Paul wrote to the Corinthians 00:54 in 2 Corinthians 1:3 and 4, 00:59 he says, "Blessed be the God 01:01 and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 01:03 the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 01:07 who comforts us in all our tribulation, 01:09 that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, 01:16 with the comfort with which we ourselves 01:19 have received from God." 01:21 And today we have returning with us 01:24 for the fourth time 01:25 author and grief counselor Karen Nicola. 01:29 And Karen is, has a ministry called Comfort for the Day. 01:35 And, Karen, thank you so much for coming back. 01:38 I'm so happy to be here. 01:39 We are just... 01:41 We don't want to let you go. 01:42 I know this is our last one with you 01:44 and we're so glad that you're here though. 01:48 Being a skilful comforter is something that 01:54 this is a teaching our church, every church the world needs, 01:59 because so often especially 02:02 if someone is going through bereavement 02:04 where they have lost a loved one people, 02:09 you know, remember that Art Linkletter show 02:11 "Kids Say the Darndest Things." 02:14 People say the darndest things if that's okay for me to say, 02:17 don't write me now but, 02:19 but people can say some very... 02:22 and they don't mean to but they'll say something 02:24 that's very insensitive and very painful. 02:26 Yeah. 02:27 So and the other thing that 02:29 I'm thinking off the top of my head is that 02:32 we also often... 02:36 If there's a funeral 02:37 we're good at that first month of offering comfort 02:41 and then life goes on 02:43 and we forget about those 02:45 who are going through bereavement. 02:47 So tell us today, 02:49 how to be a skilful comforter. 02:53 While becoming a skilful comforter 02:54 is not an easy process. 02:57 It's one that 02:58 does take a little bit of acknowledging. 03:02 Maybe I could improve and... 03:06 I think we can all say that. 03:08 So to improve of how we interact 03:11 with people in their loss, in their grief 03:14 and this would be for any of their losses, 03:16 I mean someone who has, you know, 03:18 has been diagnosed with a terminal illness 03:20 and they're going to lose their own life 03:21 or someone who is going through a divorce, 03:24 someone whose pet has, has died. 03:27 To genuinely comfort them is not fixing them. 03:34 And we're very good at stepping in and fixing 03:37 that's why the first weeks or the first months when we, 03:40 when we run and we bring the casseroles 03:42 and we bring the food 03:44 or you know we provide maybe a little bit of transportation 03:48 for a while or something like that. 03:49 We are in this doing mode and we think we're fixing. 03:53 But as we've talked 03:55 these three previous episodes that this is, 03:58 this is not something that ends, 04:02 the day of the funeral, at the memorial, 04:04 at the burial. 04:06 But this is something that's ongoing. 04:08 So how can we become skilful comforters 04:11 to take it through the ongoing time 04:13 and that's why I would like to explore. 04:15 But let's kind of start with the things we say. 04:20 You've got a list there 04:21 some of the things there in that bar, 04:24 on the side bar there, 04:25 some of those things that we say. 04:27 What are some of those things that we say that just are... 04:31 They're in a better place. 04:33 Yeah. 04:34 Get over it, move on. 04:35 It was God's will. 04:37 It was for the best. 04:41 Boy, this is very light writing here, 04:43 it's right or not. 04:45 You just need what? 04:47 To get over it, 04:49 need to move on, need to smile. 04:50 You need to move on. 04:52 Yeah. Yeah. 04:53 It just take its time you need to, 04:55 to stop living in the past. 04:57 Oh, how many times 04:59 we've heard that look on the bright side, 05:01 just keeps smiling, 05:03 I'm praying for you then you don't. 05:06 That one I am very adamant about, 05:09 you know, we will say, oh, I'm praying for you. 05:11 I'm praying for you. 05:12 Here's something that's interesting. 05:15 Is there anything I can do? 05:17 People are so, you know, 05:19 if somebody asks me 05:20 if they can do something for me. 05:22 I always say, no. 05:24 I mean, it's... 05:26 Now people who just show up with something 05:28 or do something that's different, you know. 05:34 These are some good things that we need to, 05:37 to watch out for saying... 05:39 We need to stop saying. 05:41 At least you have other children would be 05:43 probably the most painful. 05:44 Yeah. 05:46 Oh, I know how you feel. 05:47 I know how you feel is, is not a true statement. 05:52 Even if a, another woman, 05:55 my exact same age at 28 when I lost my son, 05:59 she would be the same. 06:01 We could not know how each other feels 06:04 because we had different relationships, 06:06 we had different issues with our children 06:09 and our losses in their death. 06:11 We might have a shared 06:12 experience of our feeling my loss. 06:15 But I can't say, I know how you feel. 06:18 They can't say that. 06:19 And some people are, 06:21 are very put off and understandably 06:23 so by just the blanket comment. 06:26 I'm so sorry. 06:29 Soon as I would tell you Shelley, 06:30 "Oh, I'm so sorry." 06:32 Then that puts you in a position 06:34 to try to console me. 06:39 So that is a really counterproductive 06:42 and one of the ways that 06:43 I help guide people through that is, 06:45 the natural thing is to say we are sorry, 06:47 we do feel badly for them. 06:49 So if we, if the, "I'm so sorry" 06:52 just naturally comes out of our mouth, 06:54 then let's finish the sentence. 06:56 "I am so sorry that you are living with this pain. 07:00 I am so sorry that you are experiencing this. 07:03 I'm so sorry that your mother passed away." 07:06 We finished the sentence and we don't leave it with, 07:09 "Oh, I'm so sorry," 07:11 because now the grieving person 07:14 may feel some need to try to console us 07:16 and then what do they say, "Oh, it's okay." 07:19 None of it's okay, 07:21 it's not okay that someone is dying. 07:23 Yeah, it's interesting that you say that 07:25 because there is someone in my close circle 07:28 who is constantly saying, 07:30 I'm sorry if you mention something 07:32 and then I feel, oh, I've made them uneasy 07:35 and I do naturally, 07:37 and then this is over just day to day matters 07:40 so I do understand that, that's interesting. 07:42 So if the grieving person is then left to feel like 07:45 they've made someone else feel uneasy. 07:48 You know that we... 07:50 So we don't need to say that anymore. 07:52 We don't need to say, "I'm sorry." 07:53 When you say, "I'm so sorry." 07:55 Remember that's the beginning of the sentence, 07:56 it's not the end. 07:57 And then finish it. 07:59 Or replace the, "I'm so sorry" 08:00 as I really care or make a statement. 08:04 This must hurt badly for you. 08:08 Your pain matters to me, I'm here for you. 08:12 If you are. Yes. 08:13 Oh, yes, yes, yes. 08:15 Don't say that if you're not. 08:16 Just like saying that you pray for someone 08:17 if you're not going to and just, 08:19 you know, today's modern technology 08:22 and all the media that's out there 08:25 and social media and on Facebook 08:27 and someone will, will let the world know 08:30 that a loved one has passed away 08:32 in their family system 08:34 and you'll see, "I'm so sorry." 08:37 You now see prayers, prayers, prayers, 08:38 prayers or I'm praying. 08:41 And then how many of us will leave that Facebook post 08:46 and really fall to our knees and pray. 08:49 That's something that Lord taught me a long time ago is 08:52 if you say, "I will pray." 08:54 Do it either right, I mean do it right then, 08:57 because you can get. 08:58 I mean that is like making a promise. 09:01 It's a lie if you don't pray so... 09:03 And my memory isn't good enough to remember any time 09:06 even five minutes later that I said, 09:08 "I would pray for someone." 09:09 So whether I get an e-mail message 09:11 or a Facebook message, 09:13 I will pray in that response right then. 09:16 I will pray on Facebook, 09:17 in the responded message 09:19 and or I pray, write in my email and hit send. 09:23 So they've seen and heard my prayer for them. 09:26 They know they've been prayed for 09:27 and I know I've prayed for them. 09:29 That's wonderful. 09:31 Because I want to be a woman of my word 09:33 and not say it and then don't do it. 09:35 Sometimes, I think that we feel like, you know, 09:39 some people aren't easy around people 09:41 who are grieving 09:43 because they don't know what to say. 09:45 And I often feel like saying 09:47 as little as possible is the best 09:49 if you can get them to talking and listen, 09:51 it's more important than what you can say, 09:54 because you're at a loss for words, 09:57 you don't know what that person's experience is. 10:00 And you really, you know, 10:02 you might say I know what you're feeling 10:04 but you don't. 10:05 The more honest thing to say is that 10:07 I don't know what you're feeling. 10:08 Yeah. 10:09 Could you tell me? 10:11 Ask them questions that, that you feel that, 10:14 that they may be ready for, 10:15 and if they're not ready for it, 10:17 you can say, "You know, you don't have to say anything, 10:19 I just wanted to be with you. 10:21 Do you mind if I hold you?" 10:23 You put your arm around them. 10:25 It's really important to ask for permission. 10:31 May I pray with you? 10:33 Some people will say, 10:34 "No, I'm not ready to talk to God yet." 10:37 "May I give you a hug?" 10:40 Some people aren't huggers 10:42 and they don't want that touch. 10:45 They don't want to be taken into that 10:47 brink of feeling tender because... 10:50 And some people may be huggers but at that moment, 10:54 it's like it would be too much for them. 10:57 So to be a skilful comforter is to know what not to say 11:00 and take those out of our vocabulary are trite comments. 11:04 To be a skilful comforter means to be honest. 11:07 And to be able to say, 11:09 "I don't have an idea what you're going through. 11:12 I don't know at all. 11:13 I'd like to know so I can understand, 11:15 could you tell me." 11:17 Being the skilful comforter means I asked for permission. 11:20 One of them might be to say, "Would it be okay, 11:23 if I came over and brought you dinner tonight." 11:26 Instead of just dropping by with a casserole dish 11:29 and leaving. 11:30 But bring them dinner and eat with them 11:33 and let them know that. 11:35 Yeah, pain is uncomfortable 11:37 but you're not going to let that 11:38 uncomfortableness of their pain push you away. 11:42 See personally and I don't know if everyone is like this. 11:47 I am... 11:49 And I'm speaking I don't mean to say, I, I, I but it's, 11:52 we can only speak from our own experience. 11:55 I do not care for people to just pop in. 12:00 And I think when you're grieving even more so, that, 12:04 you know, and people have a tendency 12:05 to sometimes do that. 12:07 But it's something that I think asking permission. 12:12 Perhaps you can say, "I've made you a casserole. 12:17 I would love to drop it by would 5 o'clock be convenient 12:21 or something like this..." 12:23 because if you ask me if you can make me something, 12:25 I'll probably say no, 12:27 because I don't want to be a bother to you. 12:28 Right, right. 12:29 But if you as if you tell me 12:31 you've already made me something 12:33 and you want to bring it by, 12:35 then you're much more open to that 12:37 but you give that person the opportunity 12:39 to collect themselves before you go by. 12:42 And here's the thing about offering these kindnesses, 12:46 these courtesies, these interests. 12:49 They need to be ongoing. 12:52 Oh, that's a tough part... 12:53 Month two, three, six, ten, 12:56 for us the intensity of the pain 12:59 of Dawson's absence, our son, his absence, 13:04 that intensity came 13:06 six and seven months later after his death. 13:11 And by that time where is everybody else. 13:14 They're all back to life, you know, 13:16 and we're now in this pain all by ourselves. 13:21 And so being aware that someone's pain about the loss 13:27 and the death of a loved one will intensify as time goes on, 13:32 will help us as comforters. 13:34 Put it on the calendar. 13:35 Let's say, someone die today April 12, 13:39 pop out six or seven months later 13:40 and put it on our calendar 13:42 and say check in with Karen and see how she's doing now. 13:46 That's good. 13:47 And put it on the calendar 13:49 when we might know of 13:51 when that person's death might be 13:55 or when their wedding anniversary was 13:57 or when their birthday was 13:58 and make it a point to check in on that day with them. 14:02 Especially when it's a first. 14:04 Oh, especially in the first 14:06 but I'll tell you 30 years later. 14:07 Really... 14:09 Oh, my, if someone even remembers our son, 14:14 he's just such a treasure to me, 14:16 such a treasure. 14:17 What occurs to me is that 14:21 we live in such an insanely busy world. 14:26 Everything is so busy. 14:28 If you are a member of a large church, 14:31 it is so easy, 14:33 even here say we have under 200 members 14:36 but we have so much... 14:42 There are so many tragedies it seems. 14:44 It just seems like 14:46 Satan is increasing his attack on his people. 14:49 We have deaths, 14:50 we have people who are in, you know, 14:52 being diagnosed with terminal illnesses. 14:55 There's, there's so much pain 14:58 that one person unless 15:01 that was their full time ministry 15:03 and that's all they did. 15:04 It's difficult to keep up and we are probably all, 15:08 I will include myself in this, 15:10 we are all guilty of being very supportive 15:14 in the initial stages 15:16 and perhaps then as we see them inquiring, 15:19 "How are you doing?" 15:21 But as far as intentional act that's not always so. 15:24 It occurred to me that maybe this is something 15:26 that churches should start little committees 15:30 where you assign a person 15:32 to you be their comforter for the year. 15:36 Will you know 'cause that's something 15:38 that we sometimes think, 15:39 "Oh, well, you know, they're well loved at church, 15:42 there is probably plenty of people 15:44 checking in on them sending cards or whatever." 15:46 And because there are so many, 15:48 I mean, does that sound stupid. 15:50 No, Shelley, I am like grinning from ear to ear 15:52 because this is what I do on Sabbath. 15:56 I visit churches and I help them develop 15:59 a grief ministry's team. 16:01 I help them become skilful comforters. 16:04 I let them know that it is not the pastor's job 16:08 to carry the attention that the bereaved need 16:12 for the duration they need it. 16:14 The pastor's job as the first responder, 16:16 but then he needs to pass it on to the next team 16:21 that's going to be the long term caregivers 16:23 for this bereaved family this, 16:27 you know, whether it's the cancer, 16:29 whether it's losses through, 16:30 through whatever we've talked about already 16:32 that this grief ministry team 16:35 then knows how to assign who's going to do what, 16:39 so no one gets lost through the cracks. 16:42 And so yes, this I'm just going, yay, 16:45 this is why I'm here. 16:47 This is what God has called me to do to, 16:50 to raise up renowned skilful comforters 16:54 because that's the mission of Isaiah 61. 16:58 "To heal the broken hearted 16:59 and comfort those who mourn in all of Zion." 17:03 Well, all of Zion is all of the world, God's family. 17:06 And we're not good at this. 17:09 We have not followed Jesus' mission in this 17:15 and he came for this purpose 17:17 and we do everything else, 17:20 and we've omitted this. 17:21 And I think primarily 17:23 because it's associated with pain. 17:25 And we're uncomfortable with pain. 17:27 And when pain comes our way, 17:30 it's fight or flight and then to, 17:33 then to say, I'm going to willingly choose 17:36 to be in someone else's space of pain. 17:39 That's really unnatural for us, 17:42 but it's not a natural for the kingdom. 17:44 That's what Jesus came to do was to be in our pain. 17:47 You shared an experience that you had with someone 17:52 or I should say lack of experience, 17:54 no it wasn't experience 17:55 when someone saw you coming down 17:58 the hallway at your church after Dawson died 18:03 and they looked up and recognized it was you. 18:06 They knew your situation 18:08 and they were so uncomfortable they turned around 18:12 and walked in the other direction rather than 18:14 stepping over that threshold into your pain and grief. 18:18 How did that make you feel? 18:21 It was disappointing, very disappointing, 18:25 I felt like I had a big banner on me that said, 18:30 "Don't get close, she hurts." 18:34 And I knew intellectually that it was just more than 18:39 that person knew how to handle 18:41 and so I gave grace to that person, 18:45 but I was very aware 18:46 that it could this happen to someone else 18:48 who didn't have a strong faith relationship, 18:51 a good footing in their trust 18:54 that God was with them in their pain, 18:56 to have people isolate them in their pain, 18:58 to leave them alone in their pain would, 19:01 would be just a really easy way 19:03 for them to walk out the back door of the church. 19:07 And, and that 19:08 just is a heartbreaking thought to me. 19:11 And it's one that drives what I do 19:13 and one that brings me such satisfaction 19:15 when I, I visit a church congregation 19:17 and we go through a two and a half hour workshop 19:20 and they began to open up their awareness 19:23 that they've already been given the skills to comfort people, 19:27 and they just didn't know how to organize it, 19:30 and that they... 19:32 In ten minutes by the end of the workshop 19:34 they can draft a comfort care plan 19:38 for a scenario that I give them 19:40 with just the small table of six 19:42 that they're sitting with. 19:44 It is so fantastic to watch and see. 19:47 You know I want to encourage you first at home. 19:50 Karen's book it's is called, 19:54 Comfort for the Day: Living Through the Seasons of Grief, 19:59 and this is a journal, 20:00 actually I'm going to take my copy home 20:03 and I'm going to journal 20:04 because I'm revisiting some pain 20:08 in my sister's death that 20:10 I realize I haven't really worked through 20:14 the grieving process on my sister 20:15 so I'm going to do this. 20:18 Thank you so much. 20:19 But I want to encourage you to do something 20:23 and you at home to do something. 20:25 I believe with all my heart 20:29 this could be a tool for evangelism. 20:33 There are people grieving not just in our church, 20:37 but outside our church that if churches would hold 20:42 maybe using some of your material, 20:44 some of you've got videos available and things, 20:48 but if you would hold a grief seminar, 20:52 you can have so many people 20:54 that may not come for a vegetarian meal 20:58 or something like that, 20:59 but there are so many people who need to be comforted, 21:04 who do not even know the Lord, 21:06 that if you're holding a grief seminar 21:09 and you can get people into the church for this seminar, 21:14 if you become skilful at being a comforter, 21:18 you're opening doors to bring people into your church. 21:23 Now you don't want to start 21:24 giving them the 28 fundamental beliefs 21:26 when they come for grief seminar. 21:28 But it is something that I believe. 21:31 I hope that your ministry will take off in that direction 21:36 to raise up this as an evangelistic tool 21:40 in every church. 21:41 Well, and we were talking about 21:42 if we're using evangelism is just finding people 21:46 that are broken hearted and letting God heal them. 21:49 You know that's what he came for. 21:51 And one of the best ways to become the skilful comforter 21:54 even if that doesn't ever happen at your church 21:57 is to learn how to be a comfort listener. 22:01 And we listen in conversation 22:05 and we listen to comfort. 22:07 And conversational listening means that I hear what you say 22:10 and then I comment on that, 22:12 and then we talk back and forth, 22:13 and it can go off this tangent or that tangent, 22:16 and we come to know each other really well 22:17 and that's beautiful. 22:19 When it comes to comfort to listening, 22:23 it is never about us 22:26 and it is always about them. 22:29 And so we need to learn to listen in a way 22:32 that does not want us to tell our own story. 22:37 A lot of us are guilty of that. 22:39 It is an easy thing to do 22:41 and we have a, have a belief that, 22:43 well, if I tell you my story 22:44 then you'll know I can identify you. 22:45 Yes. 22:47 That identify with you. 22:48 Well, the reality of it is when you're in bereavement, 22:51 your story is not going to change 22:54 my broken pain filled heart. 22:58 Wow. 22:59 That would hurt because I know that 23:02 there's times that I have been guilty of that thinking that, 23:05 if you listen long enough, 23:06 when you share a story 23:08 that they feel like you're identifying with them 23:11 but your point is well taken. 23:13 Okay, so comfort listening then is about 23:16 listening with our heart and our eyes. 23:20 All we want to do is hear their story. 23:25 We have no comparison between our story and their story. 23:29 We're not thinking about judging the value. 23:31 "Oh, you've had such a worse loss than I have" or maybe, 23:34 "I've had such a worse loss than you have." 23:36 So there's no value, there's no judgment on that. 23:39 There is just simply listening to their story. 23:46 And when we listen just to hear their story, 23:53 it's because they need to tell it. 23:56 And they may need to tell it over and over and over again, 24:01 as an example just to prepare people 24:03 if you're going to step into someone's pain 24:05 very early on in the loss. 24:07 They may need to retell the event of the death, 24:11 the accident. 24:12 I sat by my son's bedside 24:15 and that was what was on my mind 24:18 were his last moments of his life. 24:20 And what was occurring around that death moment, 24:23 I needed to tell that over and over again 24:27 until I could move on to the next part 24:29 of what I needed to tell. 24:31 And so if we're going to be skilled comforters, 24:33 renowned comforters, we simply need to listen. 24:37 We don't need to fix it for them. 24:39 We don't need to give them a solution. 24:41 We can just acknowledge. 24:44 This is really hard, isn't it, Shelley? 24:47 That's all. 24:49 Or could you tell me more about such and such a thing. 24:53 We might want to ask a question 24:54 so they could continue their talking, 24:57 but do we need to talk about ourselves? 24:59 No, not ever. 25:02 Let me ask you this question. 25:04 At what point should you be concerned 25:07 if someone is not moving on in the grieving process. 25:13 I'm listening to what you're saying about 25:16 and I'm thinking of someone 25:18 specifically who is in 25:22 a constant mode of needing comfort, 25:25 it is constant to the point 25:28 that after 12 years 25:29 I often will say as they are doing this. 25:34 I'll bring up what some other people have gone through, 25:37 to let this individual know you're not alone but it's, 25:43 it's an unhealthy type of thing. 25:45 At what point do you become concerned 25:48 and what do you do when someone is not, 25:52 you know, six years down the road, 25:53 nine years down the road, 25:55 if they're not really getting beyond 25:58 and they've fallen into the poor pitiful pearl, 26:01 you know and what do you do then? 26:04 I might ask them, "Are you ready to let go off the pain. 26:10 Do you still need to be identified 26:12 by the loss in your life 26:14 or would you like to be identified by the healing." 26:18 Those are two questions that I usually would ask somebody. 26:21 And if they need to think about that and if they say, 26:25 "I don't know 26:27 or I'm so accustomed to what I've experienced that, 26:31 I didn't know there was another way to live." 26:33 And you just gently offer that 26:36 they might want to consider that there is a better way. 26:40 Grief work. 26:41 Grief work would be it. 26:43 And in this case after 12 years 26:44 they probably need to see a grief coach, 26:46 a therapist, a counselor 26:48 and get that professional help to do that, yeah. 26:53 Karen, I know that we could continue on for many, 26:57 many more programs but this is, 26:59 since this is your last opportunity 27:01 to be with us this season, 27:03 is there a particular comment you wanted to close with? 27:06 Well, there's this quote that comes from Stephen Livine, 27:09 and he says, 27:10 "When fear touches someone's pain it becomes pity. 27:17 When your love touches someone's pain, 27:20 it becomes compassion." 27:23 So I think the thing we need to ask ourselves 27:26 as we're considering becoming skilful comforters, 27:29 are we doing this because 27:31 we're drawn by God's love to be in someone else's pain. 27:36 And that it's not about ourselves in any way, 27:39 it's there for them so that they can know that 27:41 the compassion has come towards them. 27:43 I cannot think of a better way 27:45 to end this four part series on grieving 27:49 and I do want to thank you so much Karen Nicola, 27:53 author, grief, coach, educator, 27:56 just for being with us. 27:58 And for those of you at home, this series will be available. 28:02 You can order the series through the call center. 28:06 If you know somebody that needs to hear that 28:08 or perhaps you want to use this in your church. 28:13 Don't forget, comfortfortheday.com 28:18 You can get in touch with Karen 28:19 and ask her to come speak at your church 28:22 or to get her materials. 28:24 Thank you for joining us. |
Revised 2016-11-17