Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Karen Nicola
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000467A
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00:01 Join us today on Issues and Answers.
00:03 We'll be speaking with author 00:05 and grief counselor, Karen Nicola. 00:07 And we will be talking about 00:09 the beginning of healthy grieving. 00:43 Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn, 00:44 and we welcome you once again to Issues and Answers. 00:48 Today we have a guest who is returning with us 00:52 and her name is Karen Nicola. 00:54 And we're going to be talking about the issue of grieving 00:58 but more specifically, 01:00 how do we begin healthy grieving. 01:03 So please welcome with me Karen Nicola who is an author. 01:08 You are a... 01:09 Tell us a little bit about your educational background, 01:12 I didn't do much to introduce you last time. 01:15 Well, thank you for asking, Shelley. 01:17 I'm an educator 01:19 and I call myself a grief educator today. 01:22 I've been a classroom, 01:23 high school classroom teacher for 14 years 01:26 and love the high school students. 01:28 I taught elementary students, 01:30 I did even a little one teacher school 01:32 for a couple of years and that was a fun adventure. 01:34 So I've always found myself 01:37 in some capacity of educating others. 01:39 And now my work is to educate people about grief. 01:43 And your journey to make the transition 01:49 from high school education to grief educator 01:53 began because of the specific incidents. 01:56 Just briefly tell us again about your story? 01:58 Yes. 02:00 Actually my son passed away 02:02 long before I became a classroom teacher. 02:05 But that was the beginning 02:09 of my experience with loss and grief. 02:12 And coming to understand that 02:15 I had no idea what to expect in that grieving journey, 02:20 and so it has really been a sacred work, 02:24 it's been a very humbling work 02:27 to come alongside people in their brokenness. 02:30 So tell me then, 02:31 we know that your son was three and half years old 02:33 when he died of leukemia 02:35 which was such a shock. 02:36 But how did you then you 02:40 didn't speak you're too young to have been through 02:44 all of this before his death, 02:46 but how did you make the decision 02:50 to go into full time ministry, 02:52 because you now have a ministry called Comfort for the Day. 02:57 Where did that decision come from? 02:59 Well, that decision came 03:00 when I republished in the second edition 03:03 my book Comfort for the Day. 03:05 I was still teaching at in the high school classroom 03:09 and beginning to speak again 03:12 about this topic going for Sabbath sermons and workshops 03:18 and I was laboring with the Lord. 03:20 I mean, I love the classroom, 03:21 I love the energy of high school students, 03:23 I love watching their ha-ha moments, 03:25 and that's a very positive atmosphere 03:27 to walk into everyday. 03:29 And then I knew 03:30 that if I was gonna go the other direction 03:33 to step into people's pain 03:36 and be with them there and educate people 03:38 about pain and loss 03:39 and how to be good comforters that, 03:41 that would be a different energy completely 03:43 and I struggled with that for a little while. 03:46 I ask my local church pastor, 03:48 she would dedicate me for this work 03:50 and one Sabbath 03:52 there was a very beautiful dedication service. 03:55 And from that point forward the Lord said, 03:59 I've called you to do comfort for the day work. 04:02 Amen. 04:04 And so I've been just following the open doors 04:06 that he has provided for me 04:08 and which brings me sitting here in front of you, 04:11 as well as many other audiences across 04:13 the North America division. 04:14 I can't tell you how excited I'm 04:18 to find this ministry that God has raised up 04:22 and it is blossoming 04:24 because we definitely need resources 04:28 in the Adventist community as Adventist Christians. 04:32 It seems that the resources that we've used 04:35 for grief are from outside 04:38 so it's wonderful to see 04:40 someone within our own group coming up 04:43 because there's I think in some respects 04:47 we have a little different take on it 04:49 because we have a better understanding 04:52 of what happens at death. 04:53 So it's very exciting that you're doing this 04:56 and I know that you're anxious to go on 04:58 and get on with the program... 05:00 Well, could I just add to your comment there, Shelley, 05:01 because not only to have this comforting understanding 05:05 that death is sleep. 05:07 We have this beautiful picture of the character of God. 05:10 Amen. 05:12 And in that picture of who God is 05:15 that can help us in our darkest moments 05:19 when we might be railing and angry at him 05:22 because we're confused by the lies 05:24 that have been fed to us from every angle, 05:27 and that's why Comfort for the Day the book 05:30 and the ministry is based on God's word, 05:32 because it is about his word that reveals his character, 05:37 that bring us hope and healing for our broken hearts. 05:41 And the book is called Comfort for the Day 05:43 as is the ministry 05:45 and that is comfortfortheday.com, 05:49 comfortfortheday.com. 05:51 And the book is Living Through the Seasons of Grief 05:55 and we will not be speaking specifically today 05:58 to the journaling part of right to this... 06:00 System. 06:02 And that will be our next week's program. 06:05 But it is a lovely book Comfort for the Day: 06:08 Living Through the Seasons of Grief, 06:10 that gives you some instruction 06:12 on how to journaling some thoughts 06:15 to process this 06:16 and journaling is very cathartic, 06:20 it helps you focus, 06:22 it helps you really connect with God 06:24 and that's what this is just like David's Psalms 06:28 where his prayer journal so. 06:30 So we're going to be talking today 06:32 specifically about bereavement spiral. 06:36 Now explain the difference between 06:39 what we call grief and bereavement. 06:42 So grief is a giant umbrella, 06:44 that umbrella is the reaction that we have, 06:47 the natural normal necessary reactions 06:50 we have to loss. 06:52 And those losses could be anything 06:53 from the death of a pet, 06:55 to the loss of a dream, to the loss of a home, 06:58 or finances, health, 07:00 that's all that general, that's grief. 07:03 Bereavement is specific, 07:04 when we experience a loss of death. 07:07 That a person no longer is with us 07:09 and now we have to adjust 07:11 to this brokenness in our hearts 07:14 for the loss and the love that is no longer there. 07:17 Amen. Amen. 07:19 So explain how you 07:22 'cause this is obviously something 07:23 that you have created yourself. 07:26 Let's walk us through this bereavement spiral. 07:29 So the bereavement spiral was actually created 07:31 because as a counterpoint 07:34 to thinking about grief is just those five stages. 07:39 And that bereavement is much more than that. 07:41 If there is no stage, 07:43 everybody's grief is unique in individual 07:46 and the spiral is only a sample of 07:48 what might occur in someone's grief journey. 07:52 And so the spiral helps us see when you look at it, 07:56 do you see that some things repeat themselves. 07:58 Oh, yes. 07:59 And I mean, you know, 08:00 it's interesting that you start off in this spiral, 08:04 it works from the inside out, 08:06 but the shock, the pain, 08:08 the numbness, the denial, 08:10 we're going through here and we see that, 08:13 for me personally 08:16 I see that I'm immediately focused on numbness 08:20 because I have my own problem with grieving 08:26 is that I don't do it publicly 08:29 and I have a tendency to stuff it, 08:32 it's kind of like let's go on with things you know, 08:34 after a certain period of time 08:36 and think I was kind of trained up to be this way. 08:39 So what happens for me is I get stuck in that numb, 08:44 that numbness stage. 08:46 And I've been experiencing a little bit of that 08:48 recently over the death of my sister 08:50 which was two years, almost two years ago. 08:53 But I thought I had kind of dealt with it 08:57 and then suddenly something triggered 08:59 and I've been feeling that numbness again, 09:01 you know, so you go through various things. 09:04 Our culture does not affirm the grief experiences. 09:08 Especially the Christian culture 09:10 if I might say. 09:12 Yeah. 09:13 And the worldly culture, there really is no, 09:15 just this is the prime example. 09:17 When we have child birth, in our culture today, 09:21 there is a three month pregnancy leave. 09:26 Yes. 09:27 Birthing leave. 09:29 And how lovely that that mother and her baby 09:31 and then the father gets a month too. 09:34 This family gets to bond and built together. 09:36 Do you know how much leave is provided for bereavement? 09:39 Two days. 09:41 If you're lucky, three. 09:43 Yeah. 09:44 So let's just look at what that means. 09:46 Yes. 09:47 We're talking about the two life shared experiences, 09:51 birth and death. 09:53 And we give two days, three days 09:57 for bereavement leave. 09:58 And there is no way 10:00 that our minds can be focused and functional physiologically 10:04 to return to the workplace. 10:07 And so what do we do? 10:08 We have to numb in order to get around that. 10:11 And even in that numbness we're less than our optimum. 10:15 We're not at our best. Yes. 10:17 And so that's just an example of how our culture denies us 10:21 the normal, natural, necessary actions of grief, 10:27 processes of grief, 10:28 and so I'm just so happy to be able to explain to people that, 10:33 if you need to take more time, 10:35 if you can arrange to do that, please do that. 10:39 If you can be gentle on yourself 10:41 with having to return back into the work force, 10:44 back into the work world. 10:45 By all means, 10:48 is not that person's life to be honored? 10:52 Do you know how long Israel took when Moses died? 10:55 Over a year. 10:56 Not quite, they took a month. 10:58 They took a month off before they moved anywhere else 11:01 and at least that month allow them 11:04 to mourn Moses' absence. 11:07 I was thinking you know, I said a year, 11:09 I know that when a couple married 11:11 is where my mind went. 11:13 Yes. Yes, they had year. 11:14 They had a whole year 11:16 to become accustom to one another before so. 11:19 So the spiral is kind of just a visual to see that 11:23 there is no set organized phases of grief. 11:29 It's haphazard, it's mixed up. 11:32 Everyone grieves differently. 11:33 Everybody grieves differently, 11:35 the relationship with the person 11:36 that is dead are all unique to every human being. 11:39 My husband and I didn't grieve the same. 11:41 We lost our same son 11:43 but I was a mother, he was a father. 11:46 That relationship would generate 11:48 different types of grief. 11:49 And this between male and female 11:51 sometimes generates different type of grief. 11:53 So I like to say, you know, 11:55 we will grieve as unique as our thumb prints are. 11:58 Amen. 11:59 And everybody needs to be given that freedom to do that, 12:01 to grieve in their own unique way. 12:03 Karen, let me ask you a question, 12:04 I don't know if this is the appropriate time, 12:06 but quite often when a child dies, 12:11 particularly if it's an accident 12:12 or particularly if one spouse has been involved 12:17 in an accident say with a child, 12:18 and the result is a child's death. 12:20 But almost always 12:22 when a child dies in a marriage, 12:25 I mean it affects because people do grieve differently. 12:29 Sometimes I see, you know, you're counseling with someone 12:32 and they're mad at the husband 12:33 because he doesn't appear to be grieving or vice versa. 12:38 It's so often a strain on a marriage. 12:41 When you lost your three and half year old son, 12:44 what was a stress like on your marriage? 12:48 We were aware that 12:50 that could devastate our marriage, 12:52 because that was just kind of common knowledge. 12:55 And so my husband and I just decided to lock arms 12:58 and we were not going to let this 13:01 take our marriage down. 13:03 But if you're already in a struggling relationship, 13:07 if your marriage is already rocky 13:10 that could be knocks the feet out 13:13 from underneath you. 13:15 And then other pieces 13:16 what we're gonna talk about today is, 13:18 if there is any sense of thinking 13:21 that you're blaming the spouse 13:25 then today's topic is huge, 13:27 to be able to bring healing and hope. 13:30 So when we look at the spiral 13:32 there is one word that's a little bit larger 13:33 in the spiral. 13:35 What do you find, Shelley? 13:36 I noticed it right immediately forgiven. 13:38 Yeah. 13:39 And my question is, when you're saying forgiven, 13:43 is that you have forgiven yourself, 13:45 you have forgiven the deceased, you've forgiven God, 13:48 what does the term forgiven there 13:51 and why does it has such a prominent place on your spiral? 13:55 It has a prominent place on the spiral 13:57 because everything after the word forgiven 14:00 are different grief experiences the one's before. 14:03 The ones on the centre of the spiral out are ones 14:06 that we can get stuck. 14:08 Ones that we can just burrow in, 14:10 and they will stay in depression 14:12 or stay in denial, 14:13 or stay in numbness, or stay in blame, and guilt, 14:16 and regrets or shame. 14:18 And we can just spiral round and round and round 14:21 and never get through that. 14:23 And once we allow forgiveness 14:27 to be a part of our grief experience, 14:29 our bereavement experience. 14:32 Our grief changes, 14:34 that's why I say it is the starting line 14:37 for healthy grieving, 14:39 so that we can move forward. 14:41 And so it's huge, 14:43 it's just a huge piece of what makes grief healthy. 14:48 All right, but that was a... Okay. 14:49 I want to come back to your question 14:51 because I heard someone say recently, 14:53 actually said it to me is that 14:56 you need to forgive your sister for dying. 15:00 I thought, now that's a strange thing to say, 15:04 but it did trigger in me 15:08 some things from the past that you know, 15:11 may be some past wound something. 15:14 And I've seen people also 15:16 who feel that they needed 15:18 to forgive their spouse for dying 15:20 because they felt abandoned and all this. 15:23 Explain that whole process? 15:25 Well, I think we need to start out with the fact 15:27 that we live in a broken world. 15:29 And there is no relationship that is perfect. 15:33 Amen. 15:34 As much as I loved my son with all of my heart, 15:38 I was not a perfect mom. 15:42 And in his little three and half years, 15:45 he did things that would push my buttons 15:47 or trigger me in a marriage relationship 15:51 of 60 years, 50 years, 40 years, 15:53 well sure let's just say best scenario, 15:56 they're deeply in love 15:58 and death occurs for one of them. 16:01 There are still unfinished business in that relationship. 16:05 Sure. 16:07 There should, there are still 16:08 the would have, could have, should haves. 16:10 There is a regret, there is the blame, 16:12 there is the if only and what if's. 16:15 There are just no perfect relationships, 16:18 so forgiveness gets to be all of the above. 16:24 Starting with our own ability 16:27 to receive God's forgiveness first 16:30 because I cannot give something to you that I do not have. 16:34 If you ask me today to give you a $100 bill, 16:37 I couldn't do that. 16:40 And if I didn't have already 16:43 the reception of God's forgiveness, 16:45 could I give it now to a doctor 16:48 who I thought was to blame, 16:50 to a murderer who came and killed 16:52 my child or sister or niece, 16:56 could I give that forgiveness to my husband 16:58 who had abused me all through our marriage, 17:01 maybe our marriage was horrible, you see. 17:04 So if I have not yet received forgiveness, 17:06 I will not have anything to give. 17:09 So it begins with accepting 17:14 God's forgiveness for my own, 17:16 my own things. 17:17 So then, 17:19 this is not just the forgiveness is not 17:23 in the instance of the death so much 17:26 as it is that Lord forgive me, 17:29 I mean just 1 John 1:9 17:31 that we know if we confess our sins, 17:33 he's faithful and just to forgive us of our sins 17:35 and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, 17:36 so we're at that point 17:38 were we understand the process of forgiveness 17:43 and God's forgiveness 17:44 but then maybe we do look and think, 17:47 Lord forgive me that I wasn't good enough mother 17:49 or forgive me when I did this, 17:51 forgive me when I hurt them here 17:53 or forgive me for not forgiving him. 17:56 So I'll tell you my story, Shelley, 17:58 here is where it was 18:01 life changing transformation for me. 18:04 We knew our son was going to die. 18:06 The doctors had said, 18:07 his leukemia cannot be cured even if we re-medicate, 18:11 it only extend his life 18:12 but the quality of his life would be terrible. 18:14 If we don't re-medicate, he will still die, 18:17 he will die either way. 18:18 So we went to Weimar Institute 18:21 and at that time Dr. Sang Lee was there, 18:23 and we visited with him 18:25 because we wanted to keep his body as healthy 18:26 as possible for as long as possible. 18:30 And as we were speaking with him about 18:31 all these different healthy natural remedies 18:33 and approaches, 18:34 he leaned forward and he told me you're forgiven. 18:39 And I kind of just smiled at myself 18:41 and went like, yeah, I know. 18:44 I know I'm forgiven, 18:45 that was just my inner conversation 18:47 and he went on with other natural remedies 18:49 and treatments and so forth, 18:50 and then he stopped again and he said you're forgiven. 18:56 And second time I was little bit uncomfortable. 19:00 What am I forgiven for that I don't know. 19:02 What is he trying to tell me? 19:07 And then he continued with his conversation with us 19:09 and we're just about ready in finishing 19:11 and he leans forward again 19:12 and the third time he says, you're forgiven. 19:17 And the third time is when the miracle occurred. 19:21 And that miracle, Shelley, 19:23 is when God took 19:26 what I had intellectually known about forgiveness, 19:29 and transformed it to the core of my heart. 19:34 And that changed everything 19:36 because up until that time I had only 19:38 intellectually known I was forgiven. 19:41 I had not known it in my soul. 19:43 I had not experienced it in its cleansing capacity, 19:48 and it's completely wiping out of every mistake 19:54 I had ever made of every intentional 19:58 and unintentional way of behaving towards my son. 20:03 I went home that night a forgiven mom. 20:07 And that left me with no garbage, 20:11 no regrets, no blame, 20:12 no shame, 20:14 I was forgiven that left me free to love. 20:18 And so on this bereavement spiral 20:21 when forgiveness, 20:23 when we've accepted and received 20:25 the transformational forgiveness, 20:28 the kind of forgiveness 20:29 that Jesus gave to the paralytic 20:31 as he lay on his mat. 20:34 And he looks down and he says, 20:35 "Son, your sins are forgiven." 20:40 And we're told that that was enough for that man. 20:44 He didn't even need to be healed. 20:47 He didn't need to walk 20:48 because what had burdened him most 20:51 was the burden in his heart, 20:53 the regrets, and the shame, 20:54 and the blame. 20:55 So now what can I give, 21:00 oh, not intellectual forgiveness anymore, 21:02 that's not what I give you. 21:04 I can give you forgiveness from my heart. 21:07 And that's a forgiveness 21:08 Jesus calls us to be able now to forgive another with. 21:12 And the example of the parable of the king 21:16 who forgave his steward of this enormous debt 21:20 and then that man goes out and strangle somebody 21:22 for just a few pennies as it were, 21:25 and Jesus says at the end he goes, you know, 21:28 it's important that you forgive from your heart, 21:31 this is what it's supposed to happen. 21:33 I had never received forgiveness into my heart. 21:38 And it was powerfully transformative, 21:41 and likewise I believe it is the starting line 21:44 to transform our grief into healthy grieving. 21:48 So in your spiral then, 21:50 am I hearing you say, that forgiven, 21:53 when this word forgiven, 21:55 it has to do with receiving forgiveness. 21:58 This is at that point... 22:00 Absolutely. 22:01 That you are just accepting God, 22:03 it doesn't have anything to do 22:05 with forgiving another person at that point, 22:08 is that correct? 22:09 At that point that's exactly right, 22:11 because you see the Lord calls us to honesty. 22:15 He says I long for you to be honest in the inward part. 22:20 And that honesty is enough to say, you know, 22:24 I did hurtful things to this person 22:27 who passed away. 22:28 And now they're dead and I can't go back 22:31 and fix that with them. 22:34 So do I want to live with those regrets? 22:37 Do I wanna live with that shame and that self blame? 22:40 Or do I want to live forgiven and free? 22:45 Do you think that there are people who... 22:52 Quite often we'll hear something, 22:54 let's use the example of the wife 22:56 that has been abused. 22:58 And she may be saying, 23:00 "Okay, my husband was abusive all of our married life 23:04 and when he died 23:05 I don't feel like I did things to cause this abuse, 23:08 I don't feel like is there anything 23:10 I need to be forgiven for. 23:13 How does she face this step? 23:16 Then she faces this step 23:17 with truly though all have sinned 23:20 and fallen short of the glory of God. 23:22 So if we don't have responsibility 23:25 and we know we're not responsible 23:27 for how someone else's behavior has hurt us. 23:30 We don't need to falsely take that, 23:33 that would be, that would not be honest. 23:35 So first she would just need to be able to process, 23:39 do I know this transformative forgiveness 23:42 that God is giving me. 23:44 Do I know, 23:45 do I understand what Karen is talking about? 23:47 Has this been my experience and when it has been, 23:52 then we can turn around and go 23:53 that there was very hurtful things 23:56 that someone did to me, 23:57 so forgiving another person does not pretend. 24:00 It does not say, 24:01 oh, that's okay, or they're gone now, 24:03 it doesn't matter. 24:05 Yes, it matters. 24:06 It all matters. 24:07 They have hurt and wounded 24:09 and damaged you, 24:12 and that hurt, 24:14 and wound, and damage 24:15 your place of being able to move pass that 24:19 begins with being able to say you are forgiven. 24:24 You are forgiven because my Lord 24:26 and savior Jesus Christ took upon him all your sin 24:31 and he's already died for it on the cross, 24:34 and who am I to withhold forgiveness 24:36 from someone that Jesus has already died for. 24:39 And so all that pain that 24:41 someone else might have caused us, 24:43 the deceased person could have caused us, 24:46 has already been dealt with Jesus. 24:48 So my withholding forgiveness is kind of like 24:52 me drinking poison 24:54 and expecting the other person to be hurt by it, 24:56 because it poisons my life. 24:58 It keeps me stuck in that spiral of pain 25:03 and that's not what God calls us to, 25:05 he calls us to healing for our broken heart. 25:08 I asked the Lord once for an illustration on forgiveness 25:12 and now what he showed me was you know, 25:14 you just kind of, 25:16 you ever get these pictures in your mind 25:17 and you're praying with the Lord. 25:19 And it was a hill coming down into a valley, 25:23 it was a mountain stream coming down. 25:27 And then if you took, 25:28 let's say that the stream is the width of this desk, 25:31 so if you were to anchor a wire 25:33 on one side of the stream, 25:35 anchor a wire on another side 25:37 so that you've got a nice stock wire across this. 25:41 Someone upstream throws in McDonald's trash bags, 25:46 I mean they're just throwing in this bash into the stream 25:49 where as the stream, 25:50 as the water flows down it comes 25:53 and when it hits this wire what happens? 25:56 It's caught. It is caught. 25:58 And then as more trash is put in upstream, 26:01 just piece by piece 26:03 it begins to build up across this wire 26:06 and dam it up, 26:08 so what the Lord show me is that wire is like 26:11 unforgiveness in our heart, and then all the trash, 26:15 everything that it just begins to collect around that, 26:18 that's where people get bitter or be sinful 26:21 and then it stops the flow of the living water. 26:26 I mean the Holy Spirit can't flow through us, 26:29 so we are damning up, 26:31 stopping the life of God from really flowing through us, 26:36 when we have unforgiveness in our heart. 26:39 That's a grand illustration, Shelley. 26:42 I gets all the award for that. You bet, you bet, you bet. 26:45 That's beautiful and it so well illustrates 26:49 and added to that is, you know, 26:52 that he can't flow through our lives, 26:54 we are left living and suffering. 26:55 Absolutely. 26:57 I just coached a family of three 26:59 who'd suffered for nine years 27:02 after the death of an adult son, 27:04 they've been a mother, father and an adult, 27:07 and the older brother. 27:08 And when they came to this place 27:10 of being able to receive God's forgiveness 27:14 and then be able to give forgiveness 27:16 to the son who had been a drug addict, 27:19 could cause much havoc in their home. 27:22 It was the most beautiful transformation. 27:26 That family for the first time 27:27 in nine years celebrated Christmas. 27:29 Praise God. 27:31 It was just so powerful. 27:33 So forgiveness has an amazing amount of power. 27:35 Amen. 27:36 I can't believe how rapidly our time has passed by today 27:39 because there're so many things 27:41 I would like to talk to you about, 27:43 just to recap something first, thank you so much, 27:47 Karen for being with us. 27:48 And you can go to Karen's website, 27:51 it is comfortfortheday.com 27:54 and you can get more information 27:55 about your book or other materials. 27:57 But just a quick recap is that 28:00 all of our sorrow, 28:02 all our bereavement, 28:03 all of our grieving 28:05 doesn't happen in any particular order, 28:06 it's different, 28:08 we could go through different phases of it 28:10 that would repeat, 28:12 but once you reach that point of accepting God's forgiveness 28:16 and giving it to someone else, 28:18 everything beyond that becomes more positive, 28:22 that's the beginning of positive grieving. 28:24 Thank you for joining us. |
Revised 2016-10-24