Join us today on
Issues and Answers.
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We'll be speaking with author
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and grief
counselor, Karen Nicola.
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And we will be talking about
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the beginning of
healthy grieving.
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Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn,
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and we welcome you once
again to Issues and Answers.
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Today we have a guest
who is returning with us
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and her name is Karen Nicola.
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And we're going to be talking
about the issue of grieving
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but more specifically,
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how do we begin
healthy grieving.
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So please welcome with me
Karen Nicola who is an author.
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You are a...
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Tell us a little bit about
your educational background,
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I didn't do much to
introduce you last time.
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Well, thank you
for asking, Shelley.
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I'm an educator
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and I call myself a
grief educator today.
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I've been a classroom,
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high school
classroom teacher for 14 years
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and love the
high school students.
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I taught elementary students,
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I did even a
little one teacher school
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for a couple of years
and that was a fun adventure.
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So I've always found myself
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in some capacity
of educating others.
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And now my work is to
educate people about grief.
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And your journey
to make the transition
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from high school
education to grief educator
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began because of
the specific incidents.
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Just briefly tell us
again about your story?
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Yes.
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Actually my son passed away
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long before I
became a classroom teacher.
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But that was the beginning
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of my experience
with loss and grief.
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And coming to understand that
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I had no idea what to
expect in that grieving journey,
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and so it has
really been a sacred work,
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it's been a very humbling work
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to come alongside
people in their brokenness.
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So tell me then,
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we know that your son
was three and half years old
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when he died of leukemia
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which was such a shock.
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But how did you then you
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didn't speak you're too
young to have been through
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all of this before his death,
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but how did you
make the decision
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to go into full time ministry,
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because you now have a ministry
called Comfort for the Day.
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Where did that
decision come from?
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Well, that decision came
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when I republished
in the second edition
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my book Comfort for the Day.
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I was still teaching at
in the high school classroom
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and beginning to speak again
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about this topic going for
Sabbath sermons and workshops
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and I was
laboring with the Lord.
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I mean, I love the classroom,
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I love the energy of
high school students,
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I love watching
their ha-ha moments,
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and that's a very
positive atmosphere
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to walk into everyday.
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And then I knew
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that if I was gonna
go the other direction
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to step into people's pain
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and be with them
there and educate people
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about pain and loss
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and how to be
good comforters that,
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that would be a
different energy completely
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and I struggled with
that for a little while.
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I ask my local church pastor,
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she would
dedicate me for this work
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and one Sabbath
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there was a very
beautiful dedication service.
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And from that point
forward the Lord said,
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I've called you to do
comfort for the day work.
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Amen.
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And so I've been just
following the open doors
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that he has provided for me
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and which brings me
sitting here in front of you,
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as well as many
other audiences across
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the North America division.
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I can't tell you how excited I'm
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to find this ministry
that God has raised up
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and it is blossoming
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because we
definitely need resources
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in the Adventist community
as Adventist Christians.
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It seems that the
resources that we've used
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for grief are from outside
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so it's wonderful to see
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someone within our
own group coming up
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because there's I
think in some respects
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we have a little
different take on it
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because we have a
better understanding
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of what happens at death.
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So it's very exciting
that you're doing this
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and I know that
you're anxious to go on
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and get on with the program...
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Well, could I just add to
your comment there, Shelley,
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because not only to have
this comforting understanding
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that death is sleep.
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We have this beautiful
picture of the character of God.
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Amen.
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And in that
picture of who God is
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that can help us
in our darkest moments
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when we might be
railing and angry at him
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because we're
confused by the lies
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that have been fed
to us from every angle,
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and that's why
Comfort for the Day the book
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and the ministry is
based on God's word,
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because it is about his
word that reveals his character,
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that bring us hope and
healing for our broken hearts.
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And the book is
called Comfort for the Day
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as is the ministry
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and that is
comfortfortheday.com,
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comfortfortheday.com.
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And the book is Living
Through the Seasons of Grief
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and we will not be
speaking specifically today
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to the journaling
part of right to this...
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System.
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And that will be
our next week's program.
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But it is a lovely
book Comfort for the Day:
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Living Through
the Seasons of Grief,
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that gives you some instruction
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on how to
journaling some thoughts
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to process this
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and journaling
is very cathartic,
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it helps you focus,
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it helps you
really connect with God
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and that's what this is
just like David's Psalms
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where his prayer journal so.
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So we're going
to be talking today
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specifically about
bereavement spiral.
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Now explain the
difference between
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what we call
grief and bereavement.
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So grief is a giant umbrella,
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that umbrella is the
reaction that we have,
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the natural normal
necessary reactions
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we have to loss.
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And those losses
could be anything
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from the death of a pet,
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to the loss of a
dream, to the loss of a home,
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or finances, health,
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that's all that
general, that's grief.
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Bereavement is specific,
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when we
experience a loss of death.
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That a person no
longer is with us
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and now we have to adjust
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to this brokenness in our hearts
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for the loss and the
love that is no longer there.
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Amen. Amen.
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So explain how you
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'cause this is
obviously something
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that you have created yourself.
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Let's walk us through
this bereavement spiral.
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So the bereavement
spiral was actually created
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because as a counterpoint
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to thinking about grief
is just those five stages.
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And that bereavement
is much more than that.
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If there is no stage,
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everybody's grief
is unique in individual
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and the spiral
is only a sample of
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what might occur in
someone's grief journey.
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And so the spiral helps
us see when you look at it,
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do you see that some
things repeat themselves.
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Oh, yes.
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And I mean, you know,
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it's interesting that
you start off in this spiral,
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it works from the inside out,
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but the shock, the pain,
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the numbness, the denial,
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we're going through
here and we see that,
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for me personally
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I see that I'm
immediately focused on numbness
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because I have my
own problem with grieving
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is that I don't do it publicly
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and I have a
tendency to stuff it,
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it's kind of like let's
go on with things you know,
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after a certain period of time
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and think I was kind of
trained up to be this way.
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So what happens for me
is I get stuck in that numb,
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that numbness stage.
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And I've been experiencing
a little bit of that
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recently over the
death of my sister
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which was two years,
almost two years ago.
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But I thought I had
kind of dealt with it
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and then suddenly
something triggered
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and I've been
feeling that numbness again,
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you know, so you go
through various things.
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Our culture does not
affirm the grief experiences.
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Especially the Christian culture
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if I might say.
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Yeah.
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And the worldly
culture, there really is no,
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just this is the prime example.
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When we have child
birth, in our culture today,
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there is a three
month pregnancy leave.
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Yes.
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Birthing leave.
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And how lovely that
that mother and her baby
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and then the
father gets a month too.
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This family gets to
bond and built together.
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Do you know how much leave
is provided for bereavement?
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Two days.
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If you're lucky, three.
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Yeah.
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So let's just look
at what that means.
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Yes.
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We're talking about the
two life shared experiences,
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birth and death.
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And we give two days, three days
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for bereavement leave.
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And there is no way
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that our minds can be focused
and functional physiologically
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to return to the workplace.
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And so what do we do?
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We have to numb in
order to get around that.
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And even in that numbness
we're less than our optimum.
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We're not at our best. Yes.
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And so that's just an example
of how our culture denies us
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the normal, natural,
necessary actions of grief,
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processes of grief,
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and so I'm just so happy to be
able to explain to people that,
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if you need to take more time,
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if you can arrange to
do that, please do that.
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If you can be gentle on yourself
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with having to return
back into the work force,
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back into the work world.
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By all means,
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is not that
person's life to be honored?
00:10:48.68\00:10:52.68
Do you know how long
Israel took when Moses died?
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Over a year.
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Not quite, they took a month.
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They took a month off
before they moved anywhere else
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and at least
that month allow them
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to mourn Moses' absence.
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I was thinking you
know, I said a year,
00:11:07.93\00:11:09.30
I know that
when a couple married
00:11:09.33\00:11:11.73
is where my mind went.
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Yes. Yes, they had year.
00:11:13.13\00:11:14.47
They had a whole year
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to become accustom to
one another before so.
00:11:16.37\00:11:19.84
So the spiral is kind of
just a visual to see that
00:11:19.87\00:11:23.91
there is no set
organized phases of grief.
00:11:23.95\00:11:29.65
It's haphazard, it's mixed up.
00:11:29.68\00:11:32.32
Everyone grieves differently.
00:11:32.35\00:11:33.69
Everybody grieves differently,
00:11:33.72\00:11:35.06
the relationship with the person
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that is dead are all
unique to every human being.
00:11:36.46\00:11:39.03
My husband and I
didn't grieve the same.
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We lost our same son
00:11:41.90\00:11:43.47
but I was a
mother, he was a father.
00:11:43.50\00:11:46.50
That relationship would generate
00:11:46.53\00:11:48.47
different types of grief.
00:11:48.50\00:11:49.84
And this between male and female
00:11:49.87\00:11:51.37
sometimes generates
different type of grief.
00:11:51.41\00:11:53.88
So I like to say, you know,
00:11:53.91\00:11:55.54
we will grieve as
unique as our thumb prints are.
00:11:55.58\00:11:58.08
Amen.
00:11:58.11\00:11:59.45
And everybody needs to be
given that freedom to do that,
00:11:59.48\00:12:01.95
to grieve in
their own unique way.
00:12:01.98\00:12:03.59
Karen, let me
ask you a question,
00:12:03.62\00:12:04.95
I don't know if this
is the appropriate time,
00:12:04.99\00:12:06.32
but quite often
when a child dies,
00:12:06.35\00:12:11.23
particularly if it's an accident
00:12:11.26\00:12:12.93
or particularly if one
spouse has been involved
00:12:12.96\00:12:17.20
in an accident say with a child,
00:12:17.23\00:12:18.93
and the result
is a child's death.
00:12:18.97\00:12:20.87
But almost always
00:12:20.90\00:12:22.80
when a child dies in a marriage,
00:12:22.84\00:12:24.97
I mean it affects because
people do grieve differently.
00:12:25.01\00:12:29.48
Sometimes I see, you know,
you're counseling with someone
00:12:29.51\00:12:32.08
and they're mad at the husband
00:12:32.11\00:12:33.48
because he doesn't appear
to be grieving or vice versa.
00:12:33.52\00:12:38.45
It's so often a
strain on a marriage.
00:12:38.49\00:12:41.69
When you lost your
three and half year old son,
00:12:41.72\00:12:44.83
what was a stress
like on your marriage?
00:12:44.86\00:12:48.46
We were aware that
00:12:48.50\00:12:50.33
that could
devastate our marriage,
00:12:50.37\00:12:52.63
because that was just
kind of common knowledge.
00:12:52.67\00:12:55.67
And so my husband and I
just decided to lock arms
00:12:55.70\00:12:58.91
and we were not
going to let this
00:12:58.94\00:13:01.14
take our marriage down.
00:13:01.18\00:13:03.51
But if you're already in
a struggling relationship,
00:13:03.55\00:13:07.05
if your
marriage is already rocky
00:13:07.08\00:13:10.15
that could be
knocks the feet out
00:13:10.19\00:13:13.96
from underneath you.
00:13:13.99\00:13:15.32
And then other pieces
00:13:15.36\00:13:16.69
what we're gonna
talk about today is,
00:13:16.73\00:13:18.36
if there is any
sense of thinking
00:13:18.39\00:13:21.43
that you're blaming the spouse
00:13:21.46\00:13:25.47
then today's topic is huge,
00:13:25.50\00:13:27.94
to be able to
bring healing and hope.
00:13:27.97\00:13:30.67
So when we look at the spiral
00:13:30.71\00:13:32.21
there is one word
that's a little bit larger
00:13:32.24\00:13:33.94
in the spiral.
00:13:33.98\00:13:35.31
What do you find, Shelley?
00:13:35.34\00:13:36.68
I noticed it right
immediately forgiven.
00:13:36.71\00:13:38.18
Yeah.
00:13:38.21\00:13:39.55
And my question is,
when you're saying forgiven,
00:13:39.58\00:13:43.18
is that you have
forgiven yourself,
00:13:43.22\00:13:45.65
you have forgiven the
deceased, you've forgiven God,
00:13:45.69\00:13:48.92
what does the
term forgiven there
00:13:48.96\00:13:51.79
and why does it has such a
prominent place on your spiral?
00:13:51.83\00:13:55.93
It has a prominent
place on the spiral
00:13:55.96\00:13:57.90
because everything
after the word forgiven
00:13:57.93\00:14:00.74
are different grief
experiences the one's before.
00:14:00.77\00:14:03.67
The ones on the centre
of the spiral out are ones
00:14:03.71\00:14:06.51
that we can get stuck.
00:14:06.54\00:14:08.21
Ones that we can just burrow in,
00:14:08.24\00:14:10.65
and they will stay in depression
00:14:10.68\00:14:12.51
or stay in denial,
00:14:12.55\00:14:13.88
or stay in numbness, or
stay in blame, and guilt,
00:14:13.92\00:14:16.38
and regrets or shame.
00:14:16.42\00:14:18.25
And we can just spiral
round and round and round
00:14:18.29\00:14:21.39
and never get through that.
00:14:21.42\00:14:23.59
And once we allow forgiveness
00:14:23.63\00:14:27.13
to be a part of
our grief experience,
00:14:27.16\00:14:29.73
our bereavement experience.
00:14:29.76\00:14:32.40
Our grief changes,
00:14:32.43\00:14:34.80
that's why I say it
is the starting line
00:14:34.84\00:14:37.24
for healthy grieving,
00:14:37.27\00:14:39.47
so that we can move forward.
00:14:39.51\00:14:41.58
And so it's huge,
00:14:41.61\00:14:43.14
it's just a huge piece
of what makes grief healthy.
00:14:43.18\00:14:47.98
All right, but
that was a... Okay.
00:14:48.02\00:14:49.78
I want to come
back to your question
00:14:49.82\00:14:51.15
because I heard
someone say recently,
00:14:51.19\00:14:53.42
actually said it to me is that
00:14:53.46\00:14:56.86
you need to forgive
your sister for dying.
00:14:56.89\00:15:00.76
I thought, now that's
a strange thing to say,
00:15:00.80\00:15:04.93
but it did trigger in me
00:15:04.97\00:15:08.10
some things from
the past that you know,
00:15:08.14\00:15:11.31
may be some
past wound something.
00:15:11.34\00:15:14.21
And I've seen people also
00:15:14.24\00:15:16.04
who feel that they needed
00:15:16.08\00:15:18.61
to forgive
their spouse for dying
00:15:18.65\00:15:20.58
because they felt
abandoned and all this.
00:15:20.62\00:15:23.55
Explain that whole process?
00:15:23.59\00:15:25.59
Well, I think we need
to start out with the fact
00:15:25.62\00:15:27.19
that we live in a broken world.
00:15:27.22\00:15:29.52
And there is no
relationship that is perfect.
00:15:29.56\00:15:32.99
Amen.
00:15:33.03\00:15:34.36
As much as I loved my
son with all of my heart,
00:15:34.40\00:15:38.67
I was not a perfect mom.
00:15:38.70\00:15:42.34
And in his little
three and half years,
00:15:42.37\00:15:45.17
he did things that
would push my buttons
00:15:45.21\00:15:47.44
or trigger me in a
marriage relationship
00:15:47.48\00:15:51.01
of 60 years, 50 years, 40 years,
00:15:51.05\00:15:53.55
well sure let's
just say best scenario,
00:15:53.58\00:15:56.08
they're deeply in love
00:15:56.12\00:15:58.15
and death
occurs for one of them.
00:15:58.19\00:16:01.79
There are still unfinished
business in that relationship.
00:16:01.82\00:16:05.79
Sure.
00:16:05.83\00:16:07.16
There should, there are still
00:16:07.20\00:16:08.53
the would have,
could have, should haves.
00:16:08.56\00:16:10.27
There is a regret,
there is the blame,
00:16:10.30\00:16:12.60
there is the if
only and what if's.
00:16:12.63\00:16:15.00
There are just no
perfect relationships,
00:16:15.04\00:16:18.54
so forgiveness gets
to be all of the above.
00:16:18.57\00:16:24.58
Starting with our own ability
00:16:24.61\00:16:27.75
to receive God's
forgiveness first
00:16:27.78\00:16:30.92
because I cannot give something
to you that I do not have.
00:16:30.95\00:16:34.52
If you ask me today
to give you a $100 bill,
00:16:34.56\00:16:37.46
I couldn't do that.
00:16:37.49\00:16:40.13
And if I didn't have already
00:16:40.16\00:16:43.03
the reception of
God's forgiveness,
00:16:43.06\00:16:45.57
could I give it now to a doctor
00:16:45.60\00:16:48.70
who I thought was to blame,
00:16:48.74\00:16:50.11
to a murderer
who came and killed
00:16:50.14\00:16:52.61
my child or sister or niece,
00:16:52.64\00:16:56.71
could I give that
forgiveness to my husband
00:16:56.75\00:16:58.78
who had abused me
all through our marriage,
00:16:58.81\00:17:01.52
maybe our marriage
was horrible, you see.
00:17:01.55\00:17:04.32
So if I have not yet
received forgiveness,
00:17:04.35\00:17:06.82
I will not have
anything to give.
00:17:06.86\00:17:09.96
So it begins with accepting
00:17:09.99\00:17:14.70
God's forgiveness for my own,
00:17:14.73\00:17:16.40
my own things.
00:17:16.43\00:17:17.77
So then,
00:17:17.80\00:17:19.27
this is not just
the forgiveness is not
00:17:19.30\00:17:23.30
in the instance
of the death so much
00:17:23.34\00:17:26.81
as it is that Lord forgive me,
00:17:26.84\00:17:29.44
I mean just 1 John 1:9
00:17:29.48\00:17:31.41
that we know if
we confess our sins,
00:17:31.45\00:17:33.15
he's faithful and just
to forgive us of our sins
00:17:33.18\00:17:35.28
and cleanse us of
all unrighteousness,
00:17:35.32\00:17:36.82
so we're at that point
00:17:36.85\00:17:38.89
were we understand
the process of forgiveness
00:17:38.92\00:17:43.53
and God's forgiveness
00:17:43.56\00:17:44.89
but then maybe we
do look and think,
00:17:44.93\00:17:47.06
Lord forgive me that I
wasn't good enough mother
00:17:47.10\00:17:49.86
or forgive me when I did this,
00:17:49.90\00:17:51.47
forgive me when I hurt them here
00:17:51.50\00:17:53.90
or forgive me for
not forgiving him.
00:17:53.94\00:17:56.67
So I'll tell you
my story, Shelley,
00:17:56.71\00:17:58.44
here is where it was
00:17:58.47\00:18:01.18
life changing
transformation for me.
00:18:01.21\00:18:04.48
We knew our son
was going to die.
00:18:04.51\00:18:06.51
The doctors had said,
00:18:06.55\00:18:07.88
his leukemia cannot be
cured even if we re-medicate,
00:18:07.92\00:18:11.25
it only extend his life
00:18:11.29\00:18:12.62
but the quality of his
life would be terrible.
00:18:12.65\00:18:14.82
If we don't
re-medicate, he will still die,
00:18:14.86\00:18:17.13
he will die either way.
00:18:17.16\00:18:18.56
So we went to Weimar Institute
00:18:18.59\00:18:21.13
and at that time
Dr. Sang Lee was there,
00:18:21.16\00:18:23.60
and we visited with him
00:18:23.63\00:18:24.97
because we wanted to
keep his body as healthy
00:18:25.00\00:18:26.94
as possible for
as long as possible.
00:18:26.97\00:18:30.07
And as we were
speaking with him about
00:18:30.11\00:18:31.67
all these different
healthy natural remedies
00:18:31.71\00:18:33.58
and approaches,
00:18:33.61\00:18:34.94
he leaned forward and
he told me you're forgiven.
00:18:34.98\00:18:39.01
And I kind of
just smiled at myself
00:18:39.05\00:18:41.48
and went like, yeah, I know.
00:18:41.52\00:18:44.29
I know I'm forgiven,
00:18:44.32\00:18:45.65
that was just my
inner conversation
00:18:45.69\00:18:47.06
and he went on with
other natural remedies
00:18:47.09\00:18:49.59
and treatments and so forth,
00:18:49.62\00:18:50.96
and then he stopped again
and he said you're forgiven.
00:18:50.99\00:18:55.96
And second time I was
little bit uncomfortable.
00:18:56.00\00:19:00.44
What am I forgiven
for that I don't know.
00:19:00.47\00:19:02.87
What is he trying to tell me?
00:19:02.90\00:19:07.61
And then he continued
with his conversation with us
00:19:07.64\00:19:09.51
and we're just
about ready in finishing
00:19:09.54\00:19:11.15
and he leans forward again
00:19:11.18\00:19:12.51
and the third time he
says, you're forgiven.
00:19:12.55\00:19:17.95
And the third time is
when the miracle occurred.
00:19:17.99\00:19:21.29
And that miracle, Shelley,
00:19:21.32\00:19:23.49
is when God took
00:19:23.53\00:19:25.99
what I had intellectually
known about forgiveness,
00:19:26.03\00:19:29.83
and transformed it
to the core of my heart.
00:19:29.86\00:19:34.80
And that changed everything
00:19:34.84\00:19:36.71
because up until
that time I had only
00:19:36.74\00:19:38.44
intellectually
known I was forgiven.
00:19:38.47\00:19:41.18
I had not known it in my soul.
00:19:41.21\00:19:43.78
I had not experienced it
in its cleansing capacity,
00:19:43.81\00:19:48.58
and it's completely
wiping out of every mistake
00:19:48.62\00:19:54.79
I had ever made
of every intentional
00:19:54.82\00:19:58.69
and unintentional way
of behaving towards my son.
00:19:58.73\00:20:02.96
I went home that
night a forgiven mom.
00:20:03.00\00:20:07.34
And that left
me with no garbage,
00:20:07.37\00:20:11.04
no regrets, no blame,
00:20:11.07\00:20:12.81
no shame,
00:20:12.84\00:20:14.18
I was forgiven that
left me free to love.
00:20:14.21\00:20:18.41
And so on this
bereavement spiral
00:20:18.45\00:20:21.58
when forgiveness,
00:20:21.62\00:20:23.18
when we've accepted and received
00:20:23.22\00:20:25.75
the
transformational forgiveness,
00:20:25.79\00:20:28.22
the kind of forgiveness
00:20:28.26\00:20:29.59
that Jesus gave to the paralytic
00:20:29.62\00:20:31.36
as he lay on his mat.
00:20:31.39\00:20:33.96
And he looks down and he says,
00:20:34.00\00:20:35.80
"Son, your sins are forgiven."
00:20:35.83\00:20:40.20
And we're told that
that was enough for that man.
00:20:40.24\00:20:44.71
He didn't even
need to be healed.
00:20:44.74\00:20:47.34
He didn't need to walk
00:20:47.38\00:20:48.78
because what had
burdened him most
00:20:48.81\00:20:51.35
was the burden in his heart,
00:20:51.38\00:20:53.21
the regrets, and the shame,
00:20:53.25\00:20:54.58
and the blame.
00:20:54.62\00:20:55.95
So now what can I give,
00:20:55.98\00:21:00.19
oh, not intellectual
forgiveness anymore,
00:21:00.22\00:21:02.22
that's not what I give you.
00:21:02.26\00:21:04.06
I can give you
forgiveness from my heart.
00:21:04.09\00:21:07.33
And that's a forgiveness
00:21:07.36\00:21:08.70
Jesus calls us to be able
now to forgive another with.
00:21:08.73\00:21:12.33
And the example of
the parable of the king
00:21:12.37\00:21:16.27
who forgave his
steward of this enormous debt
00:21:16.30\00:21:20.38
and then that man goes
out and strangle somebody
00:21:20.41\00:21:22.34
for just a few
pennies as it were,
00:21:22.38\00:21:25.25
and Jesus says at the
end he goes, you know,
00:21:25.28\00:21:28.12
it's important that you
forgive from your heart,
00:21:28.15\00:21:31.12
this is what it's
supposed to happen.
00:21:31.15\00:21:33.02
I had never received
forgiveness into my heart.
00:21:33.05\00:21:38.16
And it was
powerfully transformative,
00:21:38.19\00:21:41.03
and likewise I believe
it is the starting line
00:21:41.06\00:21:44.03
to transform our
grief into healthy grieving.
00:21:44.07\00:21:48.04
So in your spiral then,
00:21:48.07\00:21:50.94
am I hearing you
say, that forgiven,
00:21:50.97\00:21:53.74
when this word forgiven,
00:21:53.78\00:21:55.34
it has to do with
receiving forgiveness.
00:21:55.38\00:21:58.58
This is at that point...
00:21:58.61\00:21:59.98
Absolutely.
00:22:00.02\00:22:01.35
That you are just accepting God,
00:22:01.38\00:22:03.75
it doesn't have anything to do
00:22:03.79\00:22:05.35
with forgiving
another person at that point,
00:22:05.39\00:22:08.32
is that correct?
00:22:08.36\00:22:09.69
At that point
that's exactly right,
00:22:09.72\00:22:11.59
because you see the
Lord calls us to honesty.
00:22:11.63\00:22:15.60
He says I long for you to
be honest in the inward part.
00:22:15.63\00:22:20.47
And that honesty is
enough to say, you know,
00:22:20.50\00:22:24.61
I did hurtful
things to this person
00:22:24.64\00:22:27.04
who passed away.
00:22:27.08\00:22:28.91
And now they're
dead and I can't go back
00:22:28.94\00:22:31.78
and fix that with them.
00:22:31.81\00:22:34.85
So do I want to
live with those regrets?
00:22:34.88\00:22:37.65
Do I wanna live with that
shame and that self blame?
00:22:37.69\00:22:40.86
Or do I want to
live forgiven and free?
00:22:40.89\00:22:45.69
Do you think that
there are people who...
00:22:45.73\00:22:47.90
Quite often
we'll hear something,
00:22:52.67\00:22:54.07
let's use the
example of the wife
00:22:54.10\00:22:56.74
that has been abused.
00:22:56.77\00:22:58.64
And she may be saying,
00:22:58.67\00:23:00.61
"Okay, my husband was
abusive all of our married life
00:23:00.64\00:23:03.98
and when he died
00:23:04.01\00:23:05.81
I don't feel like I did
things to cause this abuse,
00:23:05.85\00:23:08.75
I don't feel
like is there anything
00:23:08.78\00:23:10.69
I need to be forgiven for.
00:23:10.72\00:23:13.36
How does she face this step?
00:23:13.39\00:23:16.02
Then she faces this step
00:23:16.06\00:23:17.89
with truly
though all have sinned
00:23:17.93\00:23:20.66
and fallen short
of the glory of God.
00:23:20.70\00:23:22.56
So if we don't
have responsibility
00:23:22.60\00:23:25.60
and we know
we're not responsible
00:23:25.63\00:23:27.40
for how someone
else's behavior has hurt us.
00:23:27.44\00:23:30.74
We don't need to
falsely take that,
00:23:30.77\00:23:33.04
that would be, that
would not be honest.
00:23:33.07\00:23:35.54
So first she would just
need to be able to process,
00:23:35.58\00:23:39.41
do I know this
transformative forgiveness
00:23:39.45\00:23:42.42
that God is giving me.
00:23:42.45\00:23:44.15
Do I know,
00:23:44.19\00:23:45.52
do I understand what
Karen is talking about?
00:23:45.55\00:23:47.09
Has this been my
experience and when it has been,
00:23:47.12\00:23:52.16
then we can turn around and go
00:23:52.19\00:23:53.90
that there was
very hurtful things
00:23:53.93\00:23:56.23
that someone did to me,
00:23:56.26\00:23:57.60
so forgiving another
person does not pretend.
00:23:57.63\00:24:00.20
It does not say,
00:24:00.24\00:24:01.57
oh, that's okay,
or they're gone now,
00:24:01.60\00:24:03.77
it doesn't matter.
00:24:03.81\00:24:05.17
Yes, it matters.
00:24:05.21\00:24:06.54
It all matters.
00:24:06.57\00:24:07.94
They have hurt and wounded
00:24:07.98\00:24:09.78
and damaged you,
00:24:09.81\00:24:12.91
and that hurt,
00:24:12.95\00:24:14.28
and wound, and damage
00:24:14.32\00:24:15.78
your place of being
able to move pass that
00:24:15.82\00:24:19.29
begins with being able
to say you are forgiven.
00:24:19.32\00:24:24.39
You are forgiven because my Lord
00:24:24.43\00:24:26.56
and savior Jesus Christ
took upon him all your sin
00:24:26.59\00:24:31.73
and he's already
died for it on the cross,
00:24:31.77\00:24:34.54
and who am I to
withhold forgiveness
00:24:34.57\00:24:36.60
from someone that
Jesus has already died for.
00:24:36.64\00:24:39.77
And so all that pain that
00:24:39.81\00:24:41.68
someone else
might have caused us,
00:24:41.71\00:24:43.31
the deceased person
could have caused us,
00:24:43.35\00:24:46.01
has already been
dealt with Jesus.
00:24:46.05\00:24:48.75
So my withholding
forgiveness is kind of like
00:24:48.78\00:24:52.95
me drinking poison
00:24:52.99\00:24:54.32
and expecting the other
person to be hurt by it,
00:24:54.36\00:24:56.76
because it poisons my life.
00:24:56.79\00:24:58.59
It keeps me stuck
in that spiral of pain
00:24:58.63\00:25:03.40
and that's not
what God calls us to,
00:25:03.43\00:25:05.90
he calls us to
healing for our broken heart.
00:25:05.93\00:25:08.67
I asked the Lord once for
an illustration on forgiveness
00:25:08.70\00:25:12.47
and now what he
showed me was you know,
00:25:12.51\00:25:14.84
you just kind of,
00:25:14.88\00:25:16.21
you ever get these
pictures in your mind
00:25:16.24\00:25:17.71
and you're
praying with the Lord.
00:25:17.75\00:25:19.31
And it was a hill
coming down into a valley,
00:25:19.35\00:25:23.89
it was a mountain
stream coming down.
00:25:23.92\00:25:27.12
And then if you took,
00:25:27.16\00:25:28.82
let's say that the stream
is the width of this desk,
00:25:28.86\00:25:31.69
so if you were to anchor a wire
00:25:31.73\00:25:33.93
on one side of the stream,
00:25:33.96\00:25:35.30
anchor a wire on another side
00:25:35.33\00:25:37.30
so that you've got a
nice stock wire across this.
00:25:37.33\00:25:41.14
Someone upstream throws
in McDonald's trash bags,
00:25:41.17\00:25:46.14
I mean they're just throwing
in this bash into the stream
00:25:46.17\00:25:49.04
where as the stream,
00:25:49.08\00:25:50.48
as the water flows down it comes
00:25:50.51\00:25:53.11
and when it hits
this wire what happens?
00:25:53.15\00:25:56.08
It's caught. It is caught.
00:25:56.12\00:25:58.09
And then as more
trash is put in upstream,
00:25:58.12\00:26:01.82
just piece by piece
00:26:01.86\00:26:03.39
it begins to build
up across this wire
00:26:03.43\00:26:06.66
and dam it up,
00:26:06.70\00:26:08.16
so what the Lord show
me is that wire is like
00:26:08.20\00:26:11.17
unforgiveness in our
heart, and then all the trash,
00:26:11.20\00:26:15.14
everything that it just
begins to collect around that,
00:26:15.17\00:26:18.67
that's where people
get bitter or be sinful
00:26:18.71\00:26:21.48
and then it stops the
flow of the living water.
00:26:21.51\00:26:26.18
I mean the Holy
Spirit can't flow through us,
00:26:26.21\00:26:29.88
so we are damning up,
00:26:29.92\00:26:31.92
stopping the life of God
from really flowing through us,
00:26:31.95\00:26:36.09
when we have
unforgiveness in our heart.
00:26:36.12\00:26:39.83
That's a grand
illustration, Shelley.
00:26:39.86\00:26:42.10
I gets all the award for
that. You bet, you bet, you bet.
00:26:42.13\00:26:45.73
That's beautiful and
it so well illustrates
00:26:45.77\00:26:49.77
and added to that is, you know,
00:26:49.80\00:26:52.57
that he can't
flow through our lives,
00:26:52.61\00:26:54.34
we are left
living and suffering.
00:26:54.38\00:26:55.91
Absolutely.
00:26:55.94\00:26:57.28
I just coached a family of three
00:26:57.31\00:26:59.18
who'd suffered for nine years
00:26:59.21\00:27:02.92
after the death of an adult son,
00:27:02.95\00:27:04.95
they've been a
mother, father and an adult,
00:27:04.99\00:27:07.06
and the older brother.
00:27:07.09\00:27:08.66
And when they came to this place
00:27:08.69\00:27:10.93
of being able to
receive God's forgiveness
00:27:10.96\00:27:14.66
and then be able
to give forgiveness
00:27:14.70\00:27:16.73
to the son who had
been a drug addict,
00:27:16.77\00:27:19.53
could cause much
havoc in their home.
00:27:19.57\00:27:22.44
It was the most
beautiful transformation.
00:27:22.47\00:27:26.21
That family for the first time
00:27:26.24\00:27:27.78
in nine years
celebrated Christmas.
00:27:27.81\00:27:29.71
Praise God.
00:27:29.74\00:27:31.08
It was just so powerful.
00:27:31.11\00:27:33.21
So forgiveness has an
amazing amount of power.
00:27:33.25\00:27:35.32
Amen.
00:27:35.35\00:27:36.69
I can't believe how rapidly
our time has passed by today
00:27:36.72\00:27:39.82
because there're so many things
00:27:39.85\00:27:41.52
I would like to
talk to you about,
00:27:41.56\00:27:43.19
just to recap something
first, thank you so much,
00:27:43.22\00:27:47.06
Karen for being with us.
00:27:47.10\00:27:48.60
And you can go
to Karen's website,
00:27:48.63\00:27:51.00
it is comfortfortheday.com
00:27:51.03\00:27:54.34
and you can get more information
00:27:54.37\00:27:55.84
about your book
or other materials.
00:27:55.87\00:27:57.71
But just a quick recap is that
00:27:57.74\00:28:00.44
all of our sorrow,
00:28:00.48\00:28:02.28
all our bereavement,
00:28:02.31\00:28:03.85
all of our grieving
00:28:03.88\00:28:05.21
doesn't happen in
any particular order,
00:28:05.25\00:28:06.95
it's different,
00:28:06.98\00:28:08.32
we could go through
different phases of it
00:28:08.35\00:28:10.85
that would repeat,
00:28:10.89\00:28:12.62
but once you reach that point
of accepting God's forgiveness
00:28:12.65\00:28:16.83
and giving it to someone else,
00:28:16.86\00:28:18.76
everything beyond
that becomes more positive,
00:28:18.79\00:28:22.26
that's the beginning
of positive grieving.
00:28:22.30\00:28:24.93
Thank you for joining us.
00:28:24.97\00:28:26.30