Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Bob,
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000458A
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00:01 It is estimated 10 to 20 percent
00:03 of the world's population 00:05 has an obsessive-compulsive disease called "Alcoholism." 00:10 Join us today on Issues and Answers 00:12 as we discuss this OCD, 00:16 and we discuss how we can give God all the glory 00:21 because He gives us victory. 00:54 Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn, 00:55 and we welcome you again to Issues and Answers 00:58 where we will be discussing a problem that faces humanity, 01:03 and what the Bible has to say as an answer. 01:06 Today, we're going to do something a little unique. 01:09 Our guest, our special guest is name Bob, 01:12 but we are not going to give you a last name, 01:15 and we're not going to show you his face entirely. 01:18 He will be in shadow 01:20 because he is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous 01:23 and we want to honor his anonymity. 01:27 But this is a gentleman who has an amazing testimony. 01:33 But mostly it's a story that gives God glory. 01:38 So let me introduce you to our special guest Bob. 01:41 Bob, we're so glad that you're here with us today. 01:44 And you know, usually we come out here, 01:46 we have some idea of where we're going. 01:49 And I have this little blank sheet of paper here, 01:51 I have no idea where we're going. 01:53 But I invited you to be on this program 01:58 because recently someone close to me 02:04 who I know was saved. 02:07 God offered them salvation. 02:09 I know they overcame their addiction, 02:12 but they never got beyond 02:18 letting go of this symptomatic thing, 02:21 the way they were trying to numb their pain, 02:23 the pain remained. 02:25 And you and I had discussed this, 02:28 and I wished I had known a little bit more about AA. 02:32 So welcome to the program. 02:34 We're going to give you free reign, 02:36 but I wish you would start by just telling us 02:38 a little of your story. 02:40 Well, first of all, thank you, Shelley, 02:42 it's a pleasure to be here. 02:43 And thank you for helping me 02:45 respect the tradition of AA of anonymity. 02:49 It's important that we don't bring attention to ourselves 02:52 as members of Alcoholics Anonymous. 02:55 We prefer to have our friends recommend us. 02:58 We don't promote AA aggressively through the media, 03:02 through celebrities and those types of things. 03:05 And really has everything to do 03:07 with putting the brakes on people 03:09 who would gain personal notoriety or possibly fame 03:13 or personal gain from their affiliation with AA. 03:17 So AA says, let's be humble about this, 03:20 let's carry the message without focusing on the messenger. 03:23 Amen. 03:25 And for me personally, it's a way to keep my pride 03:28 from getting out of hand from overcoming, you know, 03:32 the message and then helping me to think that I'm all that. 03:36 And eventually getting me back into a drink 03:38 which is what happens to people 03:40 if we let our pride get in the way, 03:43 we have no need for God. 03:45 It's really a story all about God. 03:48 And let me tell you a little bit of my story. 03:50 I've been sober since 1989. 03:53 That's 26 years at this point. 03:56 And it all started for me, 04:00 my drinking started when I turned 18. 04:04 I was raised in a good Christian home. 04:06 I have wonderful parents 04:08 who modeled Christianity for me 04:11 every day of my life growing up. 04:13 But at 18 years of age, 04:16 they had moved to another state 04:18 and I was in the college 04:20 where drinking was not allowed actually. 04:24 But there was an underground kind of gang of guys and gals 04:28 that would sneak off campus and find ways to get alcohol. 04:33 And on my 18 birthday, 04:35 it was finally legal in the state 04:37 that I was in to drink, 04:38 this is how many years ago it's been I guess. 04:41 And so I went on my birthday, 04:46 my 18th birthday, my friends, 04:47 my party friends as I call them, 04:49 took me to a bar and I had my first cigarette, 04:53 my first joint of marijuana, and my first drink, 04:57 all on the same night. 04:59 Now what happened when I took that first drink was of course, 05:03 I didn't care for the taste of it, 05:05 but I drank several drinks in quick succession. 05:09 And all of a sudden, 05:10 the alcohol traveled to my brain, 05:14 and when it did, I felt a euphoria, a freedom, 05:19 that's hard to describe for people 05:21 that have not had that experience. 05:23 All my life, I'd grown up 05:25 feeling like I was on the outside looking in. 05:27 I never felt good enough to be in the company of my peers. 05:31 I always felt like there was something wrong with me 05:34 that I was, you know, either... 05:38 I don't know it's a feeling of inadequacy, 05:40 you know, that a lot of people can relate to growing up. 05:44 And many people grow out of that, 05:45 but I never had, you know. 05:47 And alcohol allowed me to act the way I wanted to. 05:51 It made me 10 foot tall and bulletproof. 05:54 It made me good looking. 05:56 It allowed me to carry on conversations comfortably. 06:00 And that very night I drank to excess. 06:04 I drank so much that 06:09 I threw up several times that night, 06:12 I recall. 06:13 It was embarrassing, but honestly, 06:14 I didn't care because it just meant 06:16 that I could go back and drink more. 06:18 And that's not normal drink. 06:20 Most people have that reaction when they have a few drinks 06:24 that, you know, they get a little queasy 06:26 or their head gets a little light and they're done. 06:29 They want no more to do with it. 06:31 But for me, it was like, I want a lot more. 06:34 And I didn't care what price I had to pay. 06:37 I fell in love with alcohol that first night 06:39 and I promised myself 06:41 that I would do anything for this feeling 06:44 if I can feel like this all the time, 06:46 I will do whatever it takes. 06:48 Now, Bob, you were saying some things. 06:50 Let me just back up a little bit. 06:53 I've heard a number of people 06:57 who have the disease of alcoholism. 07:00 And we are going to call it a disease 07:02 because it is an obsessive-compulsive disorder. 07:05 This is not just somebody that is a moderate drinker 07:10 or partier or a heavy drinker. 07:11 I mean, people can be heavy drinkers 07:13 and not be alcoholics. 07:15 For the alcoholic, quite often, it is... 07:19 I mean there's two types. 07:20 We've discussed this before, there's two types, one who... 07:23 the first drink they take, that's it. 07:26 That's right. 07:27 It's just, they're hooked. 07:29 Others who have, it's more of an... 07:32 it's kind of like the difference between 07:34 type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes. 07:36 Others, it's something that over a some span of time, 07:41 their heavy drinking turns into a physical and mental problem. 07:45 But why do you... 07:51 before we go into any further, I want to explain 07:54 why we're talking about Alcoholics Anonymous. 07:59 I want you to explain what Alcoholics Anonymous is 08:03 because there are some Christians who think 08:05 any 12-step program that you're talking about 08:08 or Alcoholics Anonymous is void of God. 08:13 So you had this problem and we'll talk about it. 08:17 Various times how you disintegrated essentially. 08:23 But what is AA, and why did you finally choose AA? 08:29 Okay, I think I can define Alcoholics Anonymous best 08:34 by reading what we call our preamble. 08:36 Okay. 08:38 Which is a brief paragraph that explains 08:40 what AA is if you let me. 08:41 It says Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women 08:46 who share their experience strength 08:48 and hope with each other 08:49 that they might solve their common problem 08:51 and help others to recover from alcoholism. 08:54 The only requirement for membership is a desire 08:57 to stop drinking. 08:58 There are no dues or fees for AA membership. 09:02 We are self-supporting through our own contributions. 09:05 AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, 09:09 organization, or institution, 09:11 does not wish to engage in any controversy, 09:14 neither endorses nor opposes any causes. 09:17 Our primary purpose is to stay sober 09:19 and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. 09:23 There's a lot packed into that paragraph. 09:25 But it's a good definition of what AA is. 09:30 Every group in AA is autonomous. 09:33 We do not have a president who tells us 09:35 how to run our meetings or how to do things. 09:38 We have joined together with a common solution. 09:41 We have found that our solution is and must be 09:45 a power greater than ourselves which most of us call God. 09:49 So to say that it is the void of God is really unfortunate 09:53 that anybody would think that 09:55 because they obviously have not gone to an AA meeting. 09:58 If they would go to a meeting, I guarantee you, 10:00 they'd have a whole different perspective. 10:03 Because if I have no power, 10:06 our premise in AA is that we are powerless over alcohol, 10:10 that our lives have become unmanageable. 10:13 Our very second step is that we came to believe 10:16 that a power greater than ourselves 10:18 could restore us the sanity. 10:20 And in the third step, 10:21 we formally with the prayer to God, ask Him, 10:26 while we turn our will and our lives 10:28 over to the care of God. 10:29 Every step in AA is designed 10:32 to help us establish that contact with God 10:36 who is the one who keeps every one of us sober. 10:39 However, we conceive of God, our concept of God, 10:43 just like any Christian must evolve. 10:46 We need to grow to know Him better. 10:48 In fact, one of our steps specifically talks about God 10:51 and says in step 11, 10:53 we seek through prayer and meditation 10:55 to increase our conscious contact with God. 10:58 That means to talk to Him more often, 11:01 to speak with Him about everything, 11:03 to share every moment with God. 11:05 To... 11:06 as the Bible says, pray without ceasing. 11:08 Yes. 11:09 That's the whole point of AA, because if there is no God, 11:14 there is no solution. 11:15 We are beyond human aid. 11:17 There is no human power that could possibly 11:20 restore me to sanity when it comes to alcohol. 11:22 But God does and did with me and does every day of my life, 11:27 I see those miracles happen. 11:29 You know, I think some people have... 11:33 there are Christians who will say, 11:36 AA refers to a higher power and that somehow bothers them. 11:41 I just want to share a quick story. 11:43 We had an engineer who... 11:44 my husband and I had an engineer 11:45 who worked for us, 11:47 he was in our employ and wonderful man. 11:50 And then I found out he, you know, 11:52 every day, he left early for lunch. 11:55 And I found that he was going to AA meetings. 11:57 And he'd been "clean and sober" for something like 12 years. 12:01 But the point is that he was telling me 12:05 because I always thought that AA was not based on God. 12:12 I just heard stories. 12:14 But he told me that yes, 12:15 they've started talking about the higher power. 12:17 He said if he thought it was religion, 12:21 he would have never gone to a meeting. 12:23 But they told him, "You've got to have a higher power." 12:26 He said, "I chose tree as my higher power." 12:29 He said, "And I was kneeling before 12:30 that tree one day praying," and he said suddenly, 12:34 he heard the voice in his head that said, 12:37 "My name is Jesus Christ and I am your higher power." 12:42 That was very fascinating to me and since that time, 12:46 maybe I've become more sensitive. 12:49 I've met so many people 12:51 who were not brought up in church like you, 12:55 who had not been introduced to the Lord 12:58 until they went to AA, 13:02 and that's where they found God and eventually Jesus Christ, 13:06 His Son and as their Savior. 13:08 So would you agree 13:12 that the 12-steps of recovery 13:18 that AA promotes 13:22 are all Bible based steps? 13:25 They are based in a variety of things, 13:28 but every one of them has Christian principles in them. 13:31 They follow the principles that are set out in the Bible. 13:35 And honestly, many other religions also have 13:38 some of those principles. 13:40 But if you look at the total literature, 13:43 if you look at the program of recovery, 13:45 the 12 steps of recovery, they're based on honesty. 13:49 The first part is to admit our powerlessness 13:52 and that requires honesty. 13:54 Open mindedness, if you don't believe in God, 13:56 at least open your mind to the possibility 13:59 that there might be something out there. 14:00 Right. 14:02 Step two, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves 14:04 could restore us the sanity, does not require belief, 14:07 it requires a suspicion. 14:10 I suspect there may be something out there 14:13 and that little wedge is all it takes 14:15 for the light to shine through. 14:17 Because God is eager to show us that He is real. 14:22 He is... 14:24 if you will standing on his head 14:25 to try to get us to notice him. 14:27 And suddenly, when we stop saying, 14:30 I will never believe in God to, well, I don't know. 14:34 Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, 14:35 that's all it takes. 14:37 Because AA says, we can start working from there 14:40 and eventually you will see so much evidence. 14:44 You know, I don't... 14:45 we have many agnostics that come to AA 14:47 and a lot of people don't understand that term. 14:50 There are believers like you and me that believe in God. 14:53 We believe, it can be proven. 14:55 We are proof that God exists. 14:57 There are people who are unbelievers 14:59 who believe they can prove there is no God. 15:01 And then there's the agnostic. 15:03 And I'm sure you know all about it, 15:05 how the beginnings of agnosticism started, 15:07 but the bottom line is an agnostic simply says, 15:10 "Well, there seems to be evidence that God exists 15:13 and evidence that he doesn't." 15:15 But there's not a preponderance of evidence 15:17 on either side that it won't tip 15:18 the scales all the way. 15:20 So the easiest thing for me to do, 15:23 so that I'm not constantly arguing 15:25 if there is or isn't in my head is to say, it's unknowable. 15:29 You can't possibly prove it either way, so it's unknowable. 15:33 Well, that's not true either. 15:35 And AA works a lot with agnostics. 15:37 AA says, "Okay, look at the evidence. 15:41 Let's look at the evidence." 15:42 And when I sit in an AA meeting as an agnostic 15:45 or even an atheist, 15:46 it doesn't take long before I see the miracles happening. 15:50 I see people changing right in front of my eyes. 15:53 And every one of them 15:54 in some way or another will attributed to 15:57 in the beginning a higher power, 15:59 if they don't believe. 16:00 And eventually call that higher power God. 16:03 And many times, I've heard people in AA meeting say, 16:07 you know, "I'm so grateful to Jesus Christ 16:09 who is my higher power." 16:11 I've also heard people say, 16:13 "I'm grateful to nature who is my higher power." 16:16 Well, if you look at the book of nature long enough, 16:18 you're going to find God. 16:20 Yes. 16:21 And AA does not concern itself with what religion you are 16:24 or have been, what your beliefs are, 16:27 even if they're a little off the wall. 16:29 We don't care, because we believe 16:31 that God will work with you. 16:33 If you're sincerely looking for God, 16:35 He will make sure you find Him. 16:38 He doesn't have to find us. 16:40 He knows where we are. 16:42 But eventually will discover God and, 16:45 you know, I think the hardest part for Christians 16:48 to understand is that if you go to an AA meeting, 16:53 you will see miracles every day. 16:56 Every day, I hear new people coming in. 16:59 And within a few days and weeks, 17:02 people that use the name of God 17:03 only to swear are now calling on Him for help. 17:07 Amen. Amen. 17:09 I had the experience, I have to share this. 17:10 Last night, I'm working with a young man 17:14 who is an alcoholic definitely and also a heroin addict. 17:19 And he's been sober and clean now for about, I think 55 days. 17:25 And last night, as it always happens, 17:28 you know, we got on to the topic of prayer. 17:31 And I asked him his background and he says, 17:33 "Bobby, I don't know how to pray. 17:35 I was raised in a Godless family. 17:38 I want to, I'm starting to like say, 17:41 God please take these thoughts away 17:42 and they seem to be going away. 17:44 But I really don't know how to pray." 17:46 And I said, "Well, you're not alone, 17:48 many people have come into AA that don't know how to pray." 17:51 And I said, "I just speak to God like I speak to you." 17:55 And by the end of the conversation, I said, 17:57 "Would you like me to pray 17:58 so that you can hear how I pray," 18:00 and he said, "Yes." 18:02 And so from a man who is facing court problems 18:06 and a lot of anxiety over all of that. 18:09 I prayed and I ask God to give him peace. 18:12 And by the end of that prayer, he says, 18:14 "Wow, I feel that peace." Praise God. 18:18 This is weird, and I thought, there you go, 18:21 that's all it takes is a little bit of evidence. 18:23 And I said, look at the evidence, 18:25 look for the evidence. 18:26 If you're looking for God, you are sure to find Him. 18:29 The Bible promises us that, 18:32 "If you will seek Me, you will find Me.' 18:33 Amen. 18:35 And just trying to pray, you know, 18:36 one of the most beautiful things I ever hear in AA 18:39 is somebody's first prayer. 18:42 And I've had that privilege over and over and over. 18:45 And, you know, the reason we wanted you to come today 18:49 or specifically I will say, it was me who invited you 18:53 is that we want to show and believe that 18:59 we absolutely know God is the one who heals, 19:02 God gets all of the glory. 19:04 Yes. 19:05 This program is based on Christian principles 19:08 or you'll find Christian principles in everyone. 19:11 What I like about the 12-steps is that, you know, 19:17 from what I've heard about it from you. 19:20 There is accountability, but also as you... 19:24 I mean there's just surrendering to God, 19:26 yielding to God's control. 19:28 There's this accountability, but also that the program 19:32 then puts you into discipleship if you will. 19:35 You take your testimony, 19:37 now you start working with someone else 19:39 which is what you call a sponsor. 19:41 So I think all the way around, this is something that 19:46 Christians sometimes will say, I don't want to go to AA, 19:50 'cause I know God can heal me. 19:52 And somehow, I've seen some people 19:57 who may be have quit drinking, but they're dry drunks. 20:01 Yes. 20:03 And I'm not saying that you have to go to AA, 20:04 there's other programs, 20:05 but there's a beauty in these 12 steps. 20:07 So explain what I just said about the dry drunk, 20:10 so people will understand where we are? 20:12 Sure. 20:13 A dry drunk by our definition is simply 20:15 somebody who does not drink, but still acts like they were. 20:20 In other words, the dishonesty, the meanness... 20:22 Anger. 20:23 The resentments, the anger, the fears, 20:25 all of those things are unmitigated because... 20:28 and actually worse because they don't have 20:31 the numbing effect of alcohol. 20:32 Okay. 20:34 So now you're left with... 20:35 I'm left with all my character defects 20:38 that started me drinking in the first place. 20:40 And I want to make it clear that alcoholism is a symptom of 20:43 what's really wrong with us. 20:45 Amen. 20:46 AA says, "Selfishness, self-centeredness, 20:49 fear, resentment, shame, guilt, anger, 20:53 those are the things that are wrong with us. 20:55 And those are spiritual maladies. 20:58 AA deals with a spiritual solution to a physical, 21:01 and mental, and spiritual problem. 21:03 So alcoholism is a spiritual, physical, and mental problem. 21:08 Absolutely, illnesses. 21:11 It's a malady of those three things combined. 21:14 So how does it become... 21:16 I can see where it's spiritual. 21:18 Sure. 21:19 I can see where it's mental. 21:21 How does that become a physical problem, 21:23 I mean a physical disease? 21:25 You started the program by talking about OCD 21:27 and that's a good model that we can use. 21:29 I'm not sure that the psychiatric world 21:32 uses that term per se on alcoholism. 21:35 But it starts with, you know, running the show ourselves. 21:39 In other words, we play God, that's obvious. 21:42 Every person who knows an alcoholic, 21:44 they're making their own decisions, 21:46 they will not allow anybody else to help them, 21:49 they will call all their shots, 21:51 especially if their drinking is in question, 21:53 they will guard their drinking carefully. 21:55 I'll call my shots when it comes to that. 21:57 And I'm trying to run my world and it's not working very well. 22:00 So I retreat into alcohol as a crutch, 22:04 as a way to calm my anger, 22:06 as a way to forget about my problems, whatever it is. 22:09 So in that way... 22:11 Self medicating. Yes. 22:12 It's self medicating, exactly. 22:16 Let me start with the mental part. 22:18 Alcoholics, every one of us has this peculiar mental twist 22:24 that allows us to believe that this time it will be different. 22:29 If I'm trying to control my alcohol 22:31 and I didn't do so well last night. 22:33 Well, today is a different day. 22:34 Today, I won't take so much money with me to the bar. 22:37 Today, I'm not going to drink whiskey, 22:40 I'm only going to drink beer. 22:42 Today, I'm only going to, you know, 22:44 have two drinks and I'm walking away, what. 22:47 There's this obsession, like you said, with alcohol. 22:51 I'm always thinking of alcohol. 22:53 When I'm not drinking, 22:54 I'm either remembering the good times I had 22:56 or I'm thinking about the good times I will have 22:59 or I'll think about the different route I'll take home 23:02 so I don't get in trouble with the police. 23:04 Every thought of an alcoholic is centered around alcohol. 23:08 That's an obsession. 23:10 We are obsessed with alcohol, we think about it all the time. 23:13 And then we fall for the little lie that says 23:16 this time it will be different. 23:18 And once we start drinking, 23:20 the physical part that you asked about, 23:22 we trigger a compulsion, a physical compulsion. 23:26 AA calls it a physical craving for more. 23:30 So once I put any alcohol in my body whatsoever, 23:33 it sets up that physical part and my body says, 23:36 okay, we're going to drink. 23:38 And then when I have two or three drinks, 23:39 my head says, "Stop," my body says, "No." 23:44 And then pretty soon, my head is screaming, 23:46 "You can't do this, you're spending the money, 23:50 you need to pay for rent or your car payment. 23:52 Why are you doing this, stop, please stop." 23:55 And our bodies take over and say, 23:56 "We're not going to stop until we're locked up 23:59 or pass out or run out of money or whatever." 24:03 We have to physically be released 24:06 from the compulsion part by stopping drinking 24:10 before that compulsion will stop and then, 24:13 you know, unfortunately our brains get us to do it. 24:15 Generally, the next day 24:17 or the next week we start up again. 24:18 We have incredibly short memories. 24:20 We cannot remember the pain and the suffering 24:23 of even a few hours ago. 24:25 Because this time it will be different, 24:27 that's the lie that happens, that's the mental illness. 24:31 What kind of person would stick their hand 24:32 on a hot stove every day 24:34 saying it's not going to burn me today? 24:36 So about how long did you drink? 24:39 I drank for 11 years. 24:41 And how bad did it get? 24:45 Well, I got to the point where 24:51 I couldn't imagine living another day 24:53 with or without alcohol. 24:55 I was desperate, I was hopeless, 24:59 I wanted to die, 25:00 I tried to end my life more than once, 25:04 I was in real financial straits. 25:09 I had no friends left in the world. 25:12 My job was hanging by a thread, 25:16 and I didn't know what was wrong. 25:18 That's the sad part. 25:19 What kind of physical effect... 25:20 we only have about a minute or two left, 25:22 but tell me what was the physical effect? 25:24 I had gained a lot of weight. 25:26 I hadn't gotten to the point where I was, 25:28 you know, in trouble with my liver or anything yet, 25:31 but it wouldn't have been much longer, so. 25:34 Okay. 25:35 So you finally reached that point. 25:40 Now you already knew God. Yes. 25:43 I mean, you have a very godly family. 25:47 And not just somebody that's speaking it, 25:50 but somebody that walks out. 25:53 They walk in the footsteps of Jesus. 25:55 So how did you end up at AA? 25:59 How did you end up... 26:01 I mean you cried out to God, 26:02 who directed you to AA? 26:05 Well, I think God did obviously. 26:07 I had one friend that I had just met at a party 26:11 if you can imagine. 26:13 And I didn't know he wasn't drinking alcohol. 26:15 He was the life of the party, 26:16 he lived down the street from me. 26:18 And one day, I stopped by and started talking to him. 26:20 And I asked him to go out drinking with me 26:22 and he refused. 26:24 And finally I just kept pressing him saying, 26:26 assuming he didn't have the money to go drink 26:28 and I said, "I'll buy it tonight, 26:30 and he says, "No." 26:31 And he says, "I need to go to a meeting," 26:32 and I said, "What kind of job do you have 26:34 that takes you back into work at night for a meeting." 26:37 He says, "I thought you knew. 26:39 I'm an alcoholic, I go to AA meetings." 26:41 And something inside of me, 26:43 I don't even know what, except God 26:45 put the words in my mouth, I said, 26:46 "Well, that's cool, can I go with you?" 26:48 And he said, "Sure." 26:50 That happened to be a young people's meeting. 26:52 They talked about these awful things 26:54 that had happen in their life. 26:55 The car crashes, and wrecks, 26:57 and the police, and all that other stuff. 27:00 And I compared myself right out the door 27:02 because they'll say it's not happened to me. 27:05 But it planted the seed in my head 27:08 which eventually got me to the point where 27:12 I don't know if I can tell the whole story 27:14 in just a few seconds, 27:16 but that planted the seed in my head. 27:18 And alcoholism was a topic on my mind 27:22 for the next few months 27:24 until I found my way to AA through 27:26 a very strange set of circumstances 27:28 that we can talk about next time. 27:29 All right. 27:31 And now we are so excited 27:32 that you are going to come back. 27:33 Thank you. 27:35 Because 26 years of sobriety is something to celebrate 27:39 and it is something that 27:40 not only have you been clean and sober, 27:43 'cause that's only one half of the first step. 27:46 That's right. 27:48 To be clean and sober doesn't mean 27:50 you've been healed. 27:51 What you've experienced 27:53 in these 26 years is a true healing on the inside. 27:58 And I happen to know Bob fairly well 28:00 and I see him growing day by day, 28:04 year by year, throughout the years 28:07 and it's really amazing. 28:08 So we hope that you will tune again next time with us 28:12 so that you also can know 28:16 how to share this information 28:19 with someone you love or someone who needs God. 28:23 Thank you for joining us. |
Revised 2017-09-26