Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jennifer Schwirzer
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000453A
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00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
00:30 And we welcome you once again to Issues and Answers. 00:33 Today, we are going to be talking about something 00:36 that will touch your life and change your life, 00:39 I truly believe that. 00:40 We're going to be talking about how to get along with people, 00:45 that's something that we all need to know 00:47 and we can all experience a little improvement maybe. 00:53 Let me introduce our very special guest 00:55 Jennifer Jill Schwirzer. 00:56 And, Jennifer, did I pronounce your name right? 01:00 That was good enough. 01:01 I like way you said that. Jennifer Schwirzer. 01:03 Yeah, Schwirzer. Schwirzer. 01:04 That was even better. 01:06 I always try to put a little TH in there. 01:07 That's okay. 01:09 You are a licensed professional counselor 01:11 and an author, 01:12 and tell us about some of the books 01:14 you have written. 01:15 Oh, well, I'm working on my, I think, 13th book actually. 01:20 The last two are probably the most relevant 01:23 to what we're going to be talking about. 01:24 I wrote one called Thirteen Weeks to Piece 01:27 that deals with individual psychology 01:29 from a biblical standpoint. 01:30 And then I wrote a sequel to that book 01:32 called Thirteen Weeks to Love, 01:34 that's about relationship health. 01:37 So because, you know, we're wired in God's image 01:39 and God is a relational God. 01:41 So to be healthy, we have to have healthy relationships. 01:44 So, and they're really workbooks, 01:46 like, you work through them, 01:47 you can use them as a group study manual, 01:49 they have questions at the end of the chapter, 01:51 and worksheets and that type of thing, 01:52 they're very interactive. 01:54 So you can do, use them as a group study manual 01:56 or as an individual kind of growth journey. 01:58 What is your website? I didn't know. 02:01 Jenniferjill.org. Jenniferjill.org. 02:05 Jenniferjill.org 02:06 has all the different facets of my life, 02:08 music, writing books, counseling, everything. 02:12 I always forget to mention that you're also a musician. 02:15 Yeah. 02:16 Well, we're going to tap into your counseling today 02:20 because the Lord has given you, 02:23 I think, uncommon wisdom from on high. 02:26 And I know you have trained to become a licensed counselor, 02:29 but you also, it's not just the secular training, 02:34 it is that you use so much Bible in your counseling 02:40 and I just love that. 02:41 Well, psychology is like any other science, 02:43 it's a social science. 02:44 And so there is good in science, 02:46 you know, we are just basically studying 02:50 nature and science. 02:51 And so with psychology, we're studying human nature. 02:54 And so there are some valuable things 02:55 that come out of the study of psychology 02:57 but I use the Bible as kind of a screening tool 03:00 to sort through what's good and what's bad. 03:01 Amen. Yeah. 03:03 So let's talk about... 03:04 Just kick this off. 03:07 How do we, you know, 03:08 God is a God of infinite love and unconditional love. 03:11 Yes. 03:13 But His people are not always as... 03:15 That loving. That loving. 03:17 That's right. 03:18 So how do we go about improving our relationships with people? 03:22 All right, let's just cut to the chase here. 03:25 You know, Titus says that by nature we are hateful 03:28 and hating one another. 03:31 But then it goes on to say that 03:32 when the kindness and love of God, 03:35 our Savior appeared not by works of righteousness 03:37 which we have done, but according to His mercy, 03:40 He saved us through the washing of regeneration 03:43 and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, 03:45 who He poured out on us abundantly in Jesus Christ. 03:49 So there's this pouring that God engages in, 03:53 pouring out His love through the Holy Spirit 03:54 on the human race. 03:56 And we see that in Romans 5 as well, 03:58 it says, "Hope does not disappoint, 04:00 because the love of God is" 04:01 you probably know it better than I do. 04:03 Romans 5:5, "Poured out into our hearts 04:04 are shed abroad..." 04:05 either way it goes. 04:07 Depending on the translation. Yeah. 04:08 Yes. 04:10 And I use that one all the time 04:11 because I know as a human being that I am limited by... 04:15 Yes. 04:17 A sinful nature and its response, 04:19 so what I do every day is I pray 04:22 and say, "Lord, help me to open my heart to You 04:24 that You can pour Your love in my heart." 04:26 That's Romans 5:5 says, 04:28 "So that I may levy with all of my heart, 04:30 soul, mind, and strength 04:31 and so that I may love others as myself." 04:34 You know, it's impossible without the Holy Spirit 04:37 working in you. 04:39 Amen. I love that. 04:40 We can just end the show right now, 04:41 that's really what I wanted to say. 04:43 But the love of God is poured out into our hearts 04:45 and so I like to envision it, kind of as a bucket. 04:48 You know, we each have our bucket of ourselves. 04:50 And there's a hole at the bottom of the bucket 04:52 and there's a certain amount of fluid in the bucket 04:55 and that's human affection, natural affection. 04:58 You know we fall in love and get married, 04:59 we have friends, we love our children. 05:01 There's a certain amount of natural affection 05:04 that God has built into us, but it's a limited supply, 05:07 and what will happen is, it will drain out of that hole 05:10 and there will be nothing left 05:12 unless there's a constant infilling 05:14 and then when God through His great garden hose in heaven, 05:17 I don't mean to be cheesy here, 05:18 but flows His love into our lives 05:20 and mingles with our human affection 05:23 and so our relationships 05:25 can have longevity and consistency. 05:28 And so that they can actually be improved. 05:30 I think that, now, I'm not a professional counselor. 05:33 JD and I do a lot of biblical counseling with people, 05:37 but what I have found is that the number one problem 05:41 in relationships, and tell me if you will, 05:45 getting along with people is communication. 05:46 That's right. That's right. 05:48 It seems that if you have poor communication skills, 05:53 you're not going to get along with people. 05:55 Sometimes it's a skill issue, like, 05:57 we may have the best of intentions, 05:59 but if we don't have the wisdom 06:00 and the skills that we've learned to use, 06:03 then sometimes we can sabotage a relationship unintentionally. 06:07 I think of an issue with my daughter 06:09 and a skill that I learned that helped corrected issue 06:12 that I had with her. 06:13 She would come home, 06:14 this is when she was kind of transitioning 06:16 from living at home to being on her own, 06:17 she's now on her own, married. 06:19 But this is in that interim period 06:20 and she'd come home, 06:22 and she didn't really live there, 06:23 and she didn't really live somewhere else 06:25 and she wouldn't do as many tasks 06:28 around the home as I wanted her to. 06:29 So I'd ask her to and then she'd kind of feel put out, 06:32 and then I would interpret her leaving the dishes 06:34 in the sink as her not loving me. 06:36 And I would think, "You just want to treat me like a maid," 06:39 and I would say things like that, 06:40 and it would escalate from there. 06:42 So I was reading a book that talked about 06:45 reflective listening in a conflict situation 06:47 where instead of pushing your own agenda forward, 06:50 you actually listen to the other person actively, 06:53 and you try to resolve the conflict 06:54 in the context of listening. 06:56 And this is based, of course, on James 1:19, it says, 07:00 "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, 07:04 and slow to wrath." 07:06 It's no accident that we are slow to hear, 07:08 quick to speak, and advance our own agenda, 07:11 and then quick to wrath. 07:12 So that's what was happening with my daughter, 07:14 we were quick to wrath, 07:15 we were escalating and exploding, 07:17 and not working through the conflict. 07:19 I read about this tool of reflective listening. 07:22 When the person says something instead of telling him 07:25 how I feel and arguing back, 07:27 I reflect back to them what I heard them say. 07:30 So I went into her room to confront her 07:33 about leaving the dishes in the sink, 07:34 and I remember the moment like it happened yesterday, 07:37 her little shoulders went up 07:39 and she started to talk in this high voice 07:41 that she did when she's under stress. 07:43 And she said, "Mommy, I hate it when you tell me 07:46 that I don't love you." 07:47 And I remember the reflective listening and I said, 07:50 instead of saying, 07:51 "Well, you got to prove that you love me," 07:53 or whatever I would've normally said, 07:54 I said, "So you really, 07:56 you really hate it when I doubt your love for me?" 07:58 And I watched her shoulders drop like three inches. 08:01 She just went from here to like, 08:02 "Yeah, that's exactly right. 08:04 I want you to believe I love you." 08:06 And then we started to talk 08:07 and then after I kind of heard her, 08:09 I asked her, "Would you be willing to hear my side of it?" 08:11 And she said sure, 08:12 and we were able to resolve the conflict 08:14 for the first time, it's really amazing, 08:16 because I learned that skill of reflective listening. 08:18 So what we do often in communication is, 08:22 God is pouring out His love from heaven 08:24 and He's willing to fill our bucket 08:26 but we've got this lid on the bucket of bad habits 08:29 that we engage in, 08:30 that kind of undo everything that we really want to do 08:34 and that God wants to do for us. 08:35 Amen. Amen. 08:37 And there's other things that... 08:39 Let's just kind of unfold and unpackage the problems, 08:43 the things that we do that put the lid over that? 08:46 So glad you brought that up. 08:47 There are a number of different lists 08:49 of what I call Little Foxes, you know, Solomon said, 08:53 "Catch the little foxes that spoil the grapes, 08:55 that spoil the vineyard." 08:57 You know, we're told to catch those little things 08:59 that ruin our love relationships. 09:01 And so there are a number of different lists 09:03 that the great minds of psychology put together. 09:05 One is man named John Gottman, he's a marriage expert, 09:09 this man can predict the outcome of the likelihood 09:12 of divorce within 85 percent accuracy 09:15 as a result of just observing people's body language 09:18 and tone of voice. 09:19 He's a genius, he has studied marriage, 09:21 he knows what works. 09:22 He has his own list of little foxes, so to speak, 09:25 and he calls them the Four Horses of the Apocalypse. 09:28 And so that's a great list, 09:29 but there's a new list that I've come upon 09:31 that I think is possibly even better. 09:33 And it's put out by a group called CPREP 09:36 out of the University of Colorado in Denver, 09:39 it's a group of Christians. 09:40 C-P-R-E-P. C P-R-E-P. 09:42 So it's Christian Preparation 09:44 and Relationship Enrichment Program. 09:47 And they put together this program, 09:48 and they have identified four communication mistakes 09:52 that people engage in. 09:54 And the outcome of those four mistakes is number one, 09:56 that they're strong predictors of divorce, 09:59 that they are present in almost all failed relationships, 10:03 that they're often learned from the home of origin, 10:05 and then this is the scariest part, 10:07 that they will neutralize, 10:09 they can neutralize all the good 10:11 in the relationship. 10:13 So we really don't want these habits, 10:15 there are four of them. 10:17 And I use this all the time in counseling 10:19 especially with married couples 10:20 but the same principles apply in other relationships as well, 10:23 so I thought we could go through them. 10:25 Oh, please. Yeah. Let's do it. 10:26 These are the little foxes that destroy the vines. 10:29 So the first one is Escalation. 10:30 Yes. 10:31 Escalation is, you know, 10:33 just where you lose your temper basically, 10:34 and you begin to shout. 10:36 Often starts with me saying something to you, 10:38 you say something back to me, and reaction, 10:40 then I react to your reaction and you react to that reaction, 10:44 and pretty soon we're in an escalated situation 10:46 and it goes to... 10:47 And it becomes explosive... 10:48 Very, very quickly. 10:50 I have a robust history of escalation. 10:52 I was raised by a father that escalated, 10:55 he was not physically abusive 10:57 but he would yell and go on a tirade. 11:00 And when he said jump, we said, how high. 11:02 How high. That's right. 11:03 So, Dad would lose his temper. 11:06 I saw that modeled, I probably got some of the genetics. 11:09 And my poor husband in our marriage, for years, 11:11 I would struggle with exploding. 11:13 He on the other hand was quite quiet 11:16 and would shut down in a conflict situation. 11:18 So I remember one time, having an explosion, 11:21 feeling terrible about it, 11:22 one of my kids had witnessed it. 11:24 I went to apologize, I always apologize. 11:26 I went to apologize to my child and she looked at me and said, 11:28 "Daddy had a short temper." 11:30 And I thought why is she saying Daddy had a short temper, 11:33 and she looked at me and said, "You had a long temper." 11:35 Oh. 11:36 So that was my history, 11:37 but I remember the moment I started to change 11:40 is when I realized, "I do not have to control him. 11:43 I can let go and let him do what he wants to do, 11:46 it's not my responsibility. 11:47 I can walk away if I'm under stress." 11:50 And in fact what they find is, 11:52 if we can back out of an escalated situation 11:54 within one to three minutes, 11:56 it will not go to seed so to speak. 11:59 In fact, they found that married couples that argue, 12:02 but know when to back out of an argument 12:05 are actually better off than married couples 12:08 that never argue. 12:10 So it's not fighting that's the problem, 12:12 it's fighting to the point 12:13 where we start becoming angry, and irrational, 12:16 and losing perspective. 12:17 So learning how to back out 12:19 when you're at that point is very, very important. 12:21 So I encourage people to use time out. 12:24 I was going to say the very same thing, 12:27 is that that's what you have to have 12:28 is a little time out to prevent the escalation. 12:31 If you know you're in an escalated situation, 12:33 throw up a prayer to have, and I say go vertical, 12:35 because you're in a reactive cycle here, 12:38 and so if you go vertical 12:39 that's going to break that reactive cycle. 12:41 And then ask that person for a time out 12:44 and reschedule a time when you could talk through it. 12:46 And that's the key point, 12:47 it's not that you're just saying, 12:48 "Okay, enough. 12:50 I'm walking away." 12:51 It's, "Can you give me 30 minutes? 12:52 Let me regain my balance here 12:57 and let's get back together in 30 minutes." 12:58 Precisely, precisely. 13:00 And it's good for couples for instance 13:02 to establish ahead of time 13:03 that either one of them can call a time out 13:05 when they want, and it doesn't mean you're withdrawing 13:08 or that you're stonewalling. 13:09 It just means you're going to come back to it 13:10 when you're calm. 13:12 Amen. So that's the first offence. 13:14 The first little fox is Escalation. 13:16 Then another one, it's more subtle, 13:18 is Invalidation. 13:21 It's really hard for me to nail down what invalidation is, 13:23 but it's basically putting a person down. 13:27 And shutting them down oftentimes, 13:31 not really listening to what they're saying 13:33 and validating their feelings. 13:36 So often we'll use sentences that begin with why, 13:40 "Well, why didn't you just tell him to go away?" 13:42 'Why' can come across as an accusation, 13:44 so be careful of sentences that start with why. 13:47 Another sentence starter 13:49 that's often an invalidation is just, 13:52 "Well, just tell him to come back tomorrow 13:53 or just don't think about it," 13:55 or is that there's some simple solution 13:57 that that person hasn't thought of, 13:58 it's really kind of a form of invalidation. 14:00 And 'shoulds' are often invalidation, 14:02 "Well, you should be grateful. 14:04 You know, it's a beautiful day out, 14:05 you should be cheerful, and you're sad." 14:07 Really I'm invalidating that person's feelings. 14:10 So one of the most important ways 14:11 to prevent invalidation is to be a reflective listener 14:15 and ask people how they're doing. 14:17 And then when they tell you, reflect it back to them. 14:19 And, you know, some people will say, 14:21 "Well, this whole idea of reflective listening, 14:24 you know, you want me to be a parrot?" 14:26 And what we don't understand is it doesn't come, 14:30 you can take those very same people 14:33 and say to them, if they're saying, 14:35 "Are you trying to make me a parrot 14:37 or I'm just going to say something back?" 14:38 And I said, "So you feel like parroting would upset someone?" 14:43 "Well, you know," and it's like, 14:44 you've just used it on them and they're calming down. 14:47 And they're calming down. 14:49 Exactly, exactly. 14:50 Yeah, so we don't, you know, everybody wants to be heard, 14:52 people want to be understood. 14:54 I think that's something that's very important 14:56 is people want to feel like someone is 14:59 and trying to understand them or understand them. 15:01 And when you use that reflective listening, 15:05 often it does deescalate something. 15:09 Oh, so much. 15:10 And often people really don't want to necessarily 15:13 want to be agreed with but they do want, 15:16 they'll be satisfied just to be understood. 15:19 So you make such an excellent point there. 15:21 So reflective listening is a great way 15:23 to prevent invalidation, 15:24 just validating a person's feelings. 15:27 The third little fox, 15:28 the third communication mistake 15:30 is what we call Negative Interpretation. 15:33 So I think of the husband 15:34 that tries to give his wife a compliment. 15:36 And he says, "You look beautiful in blue," 15:38 and she says, "You think I look ugly in red?" 15:41 And he says, you know, 15:42 they say that the gentlemen prefer blondes, 15:45 but I love your dark hair, and she says, 15:47 "Oh, you've been thinking about blondes, huh?" 15:50 No matter what the guy says, he can't give her a compliment, 15:53 and not have her pass it through this filter 15:56 that makes it something negative. 15:57 This is very, very damaging to relationships. 16:01 Yes. 16:02 And women I think are particularly guilty of this, 16:05 although it can happen either way. 16:07 No, I think you're right that quite often 16:09 men are more worse at invalidating. 16:13 They're more condescending 16:15 because women are more emotional. 16:18 We listen with both side of our brains, 16:21 and I think because women are more emotionally tuned, 16:24 men will often invalidate that emotion. 16:27 So men, and I'm not saying 16:29 that's always but quite often it tends to be that way. 16:33 But as far as negative interpretation tends 16:36 to be more of a woman thing. 16:38 It can very often be a woman thing 16:40 'cause we make less serotonin, our brains make less serotonin, 16:44 we tend to have more anxiety and depression, 16:46 and therefore, tend to be maybe more negatively biased. 16:48 So we hear something 16:50 and it passes through that filter. 16:51 So the replacement behavior for negative interpretation 16:54 is checking in with that person saying, 16:57 "Did you mean to tell me that 16:59 you're thinking about blondes all the time, honey?" 17:01 And he says, "No, I'm not thinking about blondes at all, 17:03 I love your dark hair, that's what I meant." 17:06 And then you believe the guy, you know, very simple 17:09 and straightforward process of just simply believing people 17:11 and trusting them. 17:13 So the fourth negative communication problem is, 17:18 why am I forgetting, oh, 17:20 stonewalling or withdrawing from the relationship. 17:24 Usually following all of the first three, 17:26 you know, you engage in enough escalation, 17:28 invalidation, and negative interpretation, 17:30 you're going to want to get out of that relationship. 17:32 So often people will get into a situation 17:34 where they're just not communicating at all 17:36 unfortunately. 17:37 And so, I like to encourage people, 17:39 you know, be in the constant posture of bridging 17:43 to that other person in your relationship to them, 17:46 be constantly trying to build a bridge from yourself to them 17:48 rather than creating a stone wall 17:50 between you and them. 17:51 And a stone wall, you're basically saying 17:53 this would be somebody that's giving the silent treatment, 17:56 someone that is just walks away 17:58 and says, "I heard it, I've heard enough, 18:01 I don't want to talk about it anymore," 18:03 never wants to address the issue. 18:06 That's part of stonewalling as well, right? 18:08 Yes, that's right, that's right. 18:09 Stonewalling is actually 18:11 the negative communication habit 18:14 that CPREP identified as withdrawal 18:17 and stonewalling is a type of withdrawal. 18:19 So withdrawal would be just shutting down in a relationship 18:22 and not engaging with that person 18:25 because you're so discouraged 18:26 with how the relationship has gone. 18:28 You don't want to try to deal with it anymore, 18:30 you just want to withdraw and just co-exist. 18:34 This happens often with married couples 18:36 where they're not really engaging anymore, 18:38 they're not really sharing much anymore, 18:40 and they're kind of living separate lives. 18:42 They're just ships passing in the night, roommates. 18:44 In the night, yes. 18:46 I was speaking with someone recently 18:49 and she and her husband are having some difficulties. 18:53 And it was... 18:56 The stonewalling is going on 18:59 in a major fashion in their home. 19:02 And when I talk to her about, 19:04 you know, the most important thing you can do right now is, 19:07 are you praying for your husband every day? 19:08 I like that. 19:09 Day by day, are you lifting him up 19:11 because he is God's son, 19:13 you know, the way I used to do it, 19:15 just say, "Lord, he's Your son. 19:17 You deal with him," you know. 19:18 Yes. Amen. 19:20 And she says, "Well, actually not." 19:22 And because I'm trying to tell her 19:25 that if you're going to see change, 19:26 you're going to have to be the one 19:28 that's going to reach out. 19:29 She said, "I'm so tired of doing all of forgiving, 19:31 I'm so tired, you know, he will do these things 19:34 and be cruel and say bad things." 19:38 I mean, name calling to where she's very wounded. 19:43 And then he stonewalls afterwards. 19:48 And she's ready just, you know, let it go as well, 19:52 let him sleep on the couch and she's in the bedroom. 19:55 How does when you've got one, 19:57 I mean, I highly recommend for them professional counseling. 20:01 When you have one person who is... 20:06 Apparently willing. 20:07 Apparently willing, and is alert to the situation, 20:12 and the other person 20:13 who doesn't want anything to do, 20:16 where does a couple begin? 20:17 Yeah, I am going to go out on a limb here 20:20 and say that I think sometimes there's a place 20:22 for what I call structure separation. 20:24 Now let me just clarify, there is disagreement 20:27 within the Christian counseling community 20:29 about the issue of separation, 20:30 and there are people that I respect that say, 20:33 under almost no circumstances should a couple separate 20:35 and it is true that when couple separate, 20:37 it can often mean that they're moving toward divorce, 20:41 or it can actually make the gulf wider. 20:43 It can, it can work that way. 20:45 But I recommend structured separation 20:49 where there is a context of hope 20:53 and a specific object toward 20:56 which that individual that is implementing 20:58 the structured separation is striving. 21:01 So for instance, in the situation you described, 21:05 if there's verbal abuse going on, 21:07 the wife could say to the husband, 21:09 "I'm not willing to live with this." 21:11 It's unacceptable. 21:12 That's what I always teach. 21:14 They're unacceptable. 21:15 "And we could do better than this. 21:16 And you are better than this. 21:19 You don't have to be living this way. 21:21 We don't have to be living this way. 21:22 We're capable of so much more. 21:25 I love you. 21:26 I don't believe in divorce. 21:28 I will not divorce you and marry another. 21:30 You are it for me. 21:32 I'm committed to this relationship. 21:35 But if we don't get help, 21:37 I'm not willing to live 21:38 in these circumstances any longer." 21:40 That's a structured separation 21:42 because you've created a context of commitment 21:44 and love but within that context, 21:47 you've confronted the sin in that person's life, 21:50 and you've pushed them to the point 21:52 where they have to make a decision. 21:53 And what's often the case and now we're getting to male, 21:55 female psychology but men often don't listen to what women say, 22:00 but they do listen to what they do. 22:02 And so often it's the wife saying, 22:04 "Hey, look, I'm not willing, I got a place to move to, 22:07 I've got two months that I'm going to you know try this, 22:10 if something doesn't change, we don't get help, 22:12 I'm going to move out." 22:13 You know, sometimes the man will listen at that point. 22:15 I hate to say and I wish I could say that you just stay 22:18 and keep praying, but sometimes, 22:20 you have to take action 22:21 if you really want things to get better. 22:23 And I know, I mean, and I realize 22:25 we are kind of stepping out on a limb 22:27 because we are not, you know, this is in extreme cases. 22:30 But I do know an extreme case 22:32 where a Christian counselor told 22:33 and they were actually friends of ours in Dallas 22:35 and he told them that their marriage was so damaged, 22:39 that marriage of 23 years was so damaged 22:42 that they needed to... 22:44 The husband actually, 22:46 he had to move out for six months. 22:49 But they had a date night every week. 22:52 That's good. 22:54 They had luncheon, you know, they saw each other 22:58 and I think they saw each other perhaps every day 23:01 but he had to give her a hug every day, 23:04 you know, every time he saw her. 23:05 And I remember what he said, Harold said, 23:08 "Oh, I can't stand this, it's so silly, 23:10 you know, I've got to hug her," 23:12 and within about six weeks, he was saying, 23:18 "Boy, I just can't wait to hug her every day," 23:21 and when they did, their marriage 23:23 when they got back together their marriage was better, 23:26 she said, than it had ever been. 23:28 Oh, that's fabulous. 23:29 Because they were seeing, 23:31 they were going through counseling at the time. 23:33 But it just didn't work with them 23:36 being in the same home at the time 23:38 because there was so much damage. 23:41 Yeah, that's an excellent example 23:43 of structured separation 23:44 where you in the context of commitment and love, 23:47 you admit what's wrong with the relationship first of all, 23:50 and you do something 23:52 that can help kind of restart the process of really courting, 23:55 I mean, that's what that counselor does, 23:57 he implemented a courtship 23:59 kind of situation for that couple, 24:01 and it worked to restart the affection process. 24:05 But I do want to emphasize, we're not recommending that 24:07 just because you're having problems, 24:09 one of you move out for a while, 24:10 because sometimes, 24:11 and particularly when it's not structured, 24:14 you can end up going in the opposite direction. 24:16 That's right. 24:17 But this is for extreme cases, abuse, 24:20 you know, if your children and then this situation, 24:22 as wonderful person as he was, he had become, 24:26 started having such explosive anger 24:29 that he vided out and he didn't remember 24:32 what he was doing. 24:34 And she felt it was affecting their teenage children 24:37 and so they just said, "Okay, this is unacceptable," 24:40 you know. 24:42 This is what we have to do. 24:43 And he responded, they both responded. 24:46 I mean, they both realized their area that they do... 24:50 How they were contributing to their problems. 24:52 I like what you said about prayer like, 24:55 I mentioned in the last session we taped. 24:57 There are two things going on in the counseling situation. 25:00 I'm trying to bring tools to people and help them 25:03 know what to do in these different situations, 25:06 but there's also a kind of a reliance on God 25:09 and His Spirit that we really have to cultivate 25:11 and kind of integrate 25:13 into the process of taking action steps. 25:15 So a lot of times we forget 25:17 that really ultimately it's up to God, 25:19 and divine intervention to really catalyze 25:23 that transformation process and none of us 25:25 apart from that external source of power 25:28 coming from God being poured out upon us 25:31 can experience what it is to love and be loved. 25:34 Amen. 25:35 So as you've been studying, 25:38 you said that you grew up in a dysfunctional environment, 25:41 but as you have studied and applied 25:43 what you've studied from social science 25:45 as well as from the Bible, tell us just briefly? 25:48 It's made a huge difference for me. 25:50 I struggled with depression for many years 25:52 and getting into counseling 25:54 kind of marked a turning point for me, 25:55 and I'm not sure if it's whether I learned about 25:58 how to treat depression. 26:00 I think it's partly that 26:01 but I think it's also being there to help other people. 26:04 I'm constantly helping other people out of depression 26:06 and it sort of served to help me out of it. 26:09 I'm more conscientious about how I conduct relationships. 26:14 It used to be that I would, 26:16 you know, kind of check off the list of things 26:18 I was supposed to do in terms of my faith, 26:21 you know, all the things that I was supposed to do 26:23 as a good Christian but I've realized 26:25 since then that all the law boils down 26:27 to love your neighbor as yourself, 26:29 Paul said that twice. 26:31 And there is a phrase in the New Testament, 26:34 ah-LAY-loan, which is one and other. 26:37 It's translated one and other. 26:39 And it's all about us doing for one and another, 26:41 and being in relationship with one and another. 26:43 And as I've seen 26:45 how this principle of love for one another 26:47 is so prominent in scripture 26:49 and really the law all comes down to that, 26:51 I've been much more conscientious 26:52 about how I conduct relationships, 26:55 and I think more effective at it, 26:57 not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. 27:00 Oh, Jennifer, our time is already all gone. 27:01 Thank you so much for coming. 27:03 And just I'm going to close with a scripture that pertains 27:06 to what you've just said, 27:07 Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13. 27:10 He said, "I pray that God will cause you to increase 27:13 and abound in love 27:14 so that he may perfect you in holiness." 27:18 The more we learn to love 27:20 and relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to do so, 27:24 the more we'll become like God because God is love. 27:27 And that's what how we become holy 27:31 is the more loving we are, 27:33 as we grow in love, we grow in holiness. 27:36 So keep that thought today 27:39 and practice these wonderful things 27:42 to overcome the negative behavior, 27:45 the negative communication behavior. |
Revised 2017-09-18