Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
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And we welcome you once
again to Issues and Answers.
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Today, we are going to
be talking about something
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that will touch your
life and change your life,
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I truly believe that.
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We're going to be talking about
how to get along with people,
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that's something
that we all need to know
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and we can all experience
a little improvement maybe.
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Let me introduce
our very special guest
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Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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And, Jennifer, did I
pronounce your name right?
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That was good enough.
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I like way you said
that. Jennifer Schwirzer.
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Yeah, Schwirzer. Schwirzer.
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That was even better.
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I always try to put
a little TH in there.
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That's okay.
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You are a licensed
professional counselor
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and an author,
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and tell us
about some of the books
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you have written.
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Oh, well, I'm working on
my, I think, 13th book actually.
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The last two are
probably the most relevant
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to what we're going
to be talking about.
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I wrote one called
Thirteen Weeks to Piece
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that deals with
individual psychology
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from a biblical standpoint.
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And then I wrote a
sequel to that book
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called Thirteen Weeks to Love,
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that's about
relationship health.
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So because, you know,
we're wired in God's image
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and God is a relational God.
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So to be healthy, we have
to have healthy relationships.
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So, and they're
really workbooks,
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like, you work through them,
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you can use them as
a group study manual,
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they have questions at
the end of the chapter,
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and worksheets and
that type of thing,
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they're very interactive.
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So you can do, use
them as a group study manual
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or as an individual
kind of growth journey.
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What is your
website? I didn't know.
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Jenniferjill.org.
Jenniferjill.org.
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Jenniferjill.org
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has all the
different facets of my life,
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music, writing books,
counseling, everything.
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I always forget to mention
that you're also a musician.
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Yeah.
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Well, we're going to tap
into your counseling today
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because the Lord has given you,
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I think, uncommon
wisdom from on high.
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And I know you have trained
to become a licensed counselor,
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but you also, it's not
just the secular training,
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it is that you use so
much Bible in your counseling
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and I just love that.
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Well, psychology is
like any other science,
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it's a social science.
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And so there is good in science,
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you know, we are
just basically studying
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nature and science.
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And so with psychology,
we're studying human nature.
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And so there are
some valuable things
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that come out of
the study of psychology
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but I use the Bible as
kind of a screening tool
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to sort through
what's good and what's bad.
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Amen. Yeah.
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So let's talk about...
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Just kick this off.
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How do we, you know,
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God is a God of infinite
love and unconditional love.
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Yes.
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But His people
are not always as...
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That loving. That loving.
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That's right.
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So how do we go about improving
our relationships with people?
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All right, let's just
cut to the chase here.
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You know, Titus says
that by nature we are hateful
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and hating one another.
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But then it goes on to say that
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when the
kindness and love of God,
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our Savior appeared not
by works of righteousness
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which we have done,
but according to His mercy,
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He saved us through
the washing of regeneration
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and the renewing
of the Holy Ghost,
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who He poured out on us
abundantly in Jesus Christ.
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So there's this
pouring that God engages in,
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pouring out His love
through the Holy Spirit
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on the human race.
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And we see that
in Romans 5 as well,
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it says, "Hope
does not disappoint,
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because the love of God is"
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you probably know
it better than I do.
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Romans 5:5,
"Poured out into our hearts
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are shed abroad..."
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either way it goes.
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Depending on the
translation. Yeah.
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Yes.
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And I use that one all the time
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because I know as a human
being that I am limited by...
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Yes.
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A sinful nature
and its response,
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so what I do every day is I pray
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and say, "Lord, help
me to open my heart to You
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that You can pour
Your love in my heart."
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That's Romans 5:5 says,
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"So that I may levy
with all of my heart,
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soul, mind, and strength
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and so that I may
love others as myself."
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You know, it's impossible
without the Holy Spirit
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working in you.
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Amen. I love that.
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We can just end
the show right now,
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that's really
what I wanted to say.
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But the love of God is
poured out into our hearts
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and so I like to envision
it, kind of as a bucket.
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You know, we each have
our bucket of ourselves.
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And there's a hole at
the bottom of the bucket
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and there's a certain
amount of fluid in the bucket
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and that's human
affection, natural affection.
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You know we fall in
love and get married,
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we have friends,
we love our children.
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There's a certain
amount of natural affection
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that God has built into
us, but it's a limited supply,
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and what will happen is,
it will drain out of that hole
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and there will be nothing left
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unless there's a
constant infilling
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and then when God through
His great garden hose in heaven,
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I don't mean to be cheesy here,
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but flows His
love into our lives
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and mingles with
our human affection
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and so our relationships
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can have
longevity and consistency.
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And so that they can
actually be improved.
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I think that, now, I'm
not a professional counselor.
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JD and I do a lot of
biblical counseling with people,
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but what I have found is
that the number one problem
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in relationships,
and tell me if you will,
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getting along with
people is communication.
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That's right. That's right.
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It seems that if you have
poor communication skills,
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you're not going to
get along with people.
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Sometimes it's a
skill issue, like,
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we may have the
best of intentions,
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but if we don't have the wisdom
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and the skills that
we've learned to use,
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then sometimes we can sabotage
a relationship unintentionally.
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I think of an
issue with my daughter
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and a skill that I learned
that helped corrected issue
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that I had with her.
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She would come home,
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this is when she was
kind of transitioning
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from living at home
to being on her own,
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she's now on her own, married.
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But this is in
that interim period
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and she'd come home,
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and she didn't
really live there,
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and she didn't
really live somewhere else
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and she
wouldn't do as many tasks
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around the home
as I wanted her to.
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So I'd ask her to and then
she'd kind of feel put out,
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and then I would
interpret her leaving the dishes
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in the sink as
her not loving me.
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And I would think, "You just
want to treat me like a maid,"
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and I would say
things like that,
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and it would
escalate from there.
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So I was reading a
book that talked about
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reflective listening
in a conflict situation
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where instead of
pushing your own agenda forward,
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you actually listen to
the other person actively,
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and you try to
resolve the conflict
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in the context of listening.
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And this is based, of
course, on James 1:19, it says,
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"Let every man be
quick to hear, slow to speak,
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and slow to wrath."
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It's no accident
that we are slow to hear,
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quick to speak, and
advance our own agenda,
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and then quick to wrath.
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So that's what was
happening with my daughter,
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we were quick to wrath,
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we were
escalating and exploding,
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and not working
through the conflict.
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I read about this tool
of reflective listening.
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When the person says
something instead of telling him
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how I feel and arguing back,
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I reflect back to
them what I heard them say.
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So I went into her
room to confront her
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about leaving the
dishes in the sink,
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and I remember the moment
like it happened yesterday,
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her little shoulders went up
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and she started to
talk in this high voice
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that she did when
she's under stress.
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And she said, "Mommy, I
hate it when you tell me
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that I don't love you."
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And I remember the
reflective listening and I said,
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instead of saying,
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"Well, you got to
prove that you love me,"
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or whatever I
would've normally said,
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I said, "So you really,
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you really hate it when
I doubt your love for me?"
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And I watched her shoulders
drop like three inches.
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She just went from here to like,
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"Yeah, that's exactly right.
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I want you to
believe I love you."
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And then we started to talk
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and then after I
kind of heard her,
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I asked her, "Would you be
willing to hear my side of it?"
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And she said sure,
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and we were able to
resolve the conflict
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for the first time,
it's really amazing,
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because I learned that
skill of reflective listening.
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So what we do often
in communication is,
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God is pouring out
His love from heaven
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and He's willing
to fill our bucket
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but we've got this lid
on the bucket of bad habits
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that we engage in,
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that kind of undo everything
that we really want to do
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and that God wants to do for us.
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Amen. Amen.
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And there's other things that...
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Let's just kind of unfold
and unpackage the problems,
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the things that we do
that put the lid over that?
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So glad you brought that up.
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There are a
number of different lists
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of what I call Little
Foxes, you know, Solomon said,
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"Catch the little
foxes that spoil the grapes,
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that spoil the vineyard."
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You know, we're told to
catch those little things
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that ruin our
love relationships.
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And so there are a
number of different lists
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that the great minds of
psychology put together.
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One is man named John
Gottman, he's a marriage expert,
00:09:05.81\00:09:09.01
this man can predict the
outcome of the likelihood
00:09:09.04\00:09:12.41
of divorce within
85 percent accuracy
00:09:12.45\00:09:15.22
as a result of just
observing people's body language
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and tone of voice.
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He's a genius, he
has studied marriage,
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he knows what works.
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He has his own list of
little foxes, so to speak,
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and he calls them the
Four Horses of the Apocalypse.
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And so that's a great list,
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but there's a new
list that I've come upon
00:09:29.60\00:09:31.13
that I think is
possibly even better.
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And it's put out by
a group called CPREP
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out of the University
of Colorado in Denver,
00:09:36.64\00:09:39.34
it's a group of Christians.
00:09:39.37\00:09:40.71
C-P-R-E-P. C P-R-E-P.
00:09:40.74\00:09:42.74
So it's Christian Preparation
00:09:42.78\00:09:44.91
and Relationship
Enrichment Program.
00:09:44.95\00:09:47.52
And they put
together this program,
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and they have identified
four communication mistakes
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that people engage in.
00:09:52.85\00:09:54.19
And the outcome of those
four mistakes is number one,
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that they're strong
predictors of divorce,
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that they are present in
almost all failed relationships,
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that they're often
learned from the home of origin,
00:10:03.40\00:10:05.67
and then this is
the scariest part,
00:10:05.70\00:10:07.60
that they will neutralize,
00:10:07.64\00:10:09.94
they can neutralize all the good
00:10:09.97\00:10:11.77
in the relationship.
00:10:11.81\00:10:13.14
So we really
don't want these habits,
00:10:13.17\00:10:15.68
there are four of them.
00:10:15.71\00:10:17.05
And I use this all
the time in counseling
00:10:17.08\00:10:19.08
especially with married couples
00:10:19.11\00:10:20.48
but the same principles apply
in other relationships as well,
00:10:20.52\00:10:23.72
so I thought we
could go through them.
00:10:23.75\00:10:25.09
Oh, please. Yeah. Let's do it.
00:10:25.12\00:10:26.65
These are the little
foxes that destroy the vines.
00:10:26.69\00:10:29.02
So the first one is Escalation.
00:10:29.06\00:10:30.43
Yes.
00:10:30.46\00:10:31.79
Escalation is, you know,
00:10:31.83\00:10:33.16
just where you lose
your temper basically,
00:10:33.19\00:10:34.90
and you begin to shout.
00:10:34.93\00:10:36.26
Often starts with me
saying something to you,
00:10:36.30\00:10:38.70
you say something
back to me, and reaction,
00:10:38.73\00:10:40.94
then I react to your reaction
and you react to that reaction,
00:10:40.97\00:10:44.21
and pretty soon we're
in an escalated situation
00:10:44.24\00:10:46.01
and it goes to...
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And it becomes explosive...
00:10:47.41\00:10:48.74
Very, very quickly.
00:10:48.78\00:10:50.11
I have a robust
history of escalation.
00:10:50.15\00:10:52.71
I was raised by a
father that escalated,
00:10:52.75\00:10:55.42
he was not physically abusive
00:10:55.45\00:10:56.99
but he would yell
and go on a tirade.
00:10:57.02\00:11:00.39
And when he said
jump, we said, how high.
00:11:00.42\00:11:02.39
How high. That's right.
00:11:02.42\00:11:03.83
So, Dad would lose his temper.
00:11:03.86\00:11:05.99
I saw that modeled, I probably
got some of the genetics.
00:11:06.03\00:11:09.36
And my poor husband in
our marriage, for years,
00:11:09.40\00:11:11.73
I would struggle with exploding.
00:11:11.77\00:11:13.74
He on the other
hand was quite quiet
00:11:13.77\00:11:16.20
and would shut down
in a conflict situation.
00:11:16.24\00:11:18.74
So I remember one
time, having an explosion,
00:11:18.77\00:11:21.14
feeling terrible about it,
00:11:21.18\00:11:22.51
one of my kids had witnessed it.
00:11:22.54\00:11:24.05
I went to
apologize, I always apologize.
00:11:24.08\00:11:26.05
I went to apologize to my child
and she looked at me and said,
00:11:26.08\00:11:28.72
"Daddy had a short temper."
00:11:28.75\00:11:30.32
And I thought why is she
saying Daddy had a short temper,
00:11:30.35\00:11:32.99
and she looked at me and
said, "You had a long temper."
00:11:33.02\00:11:35.06
Oh.
00:11:35.09\00:11:36.42
So that was my history,
00:11:36.46\00:11:37.96
but I remember the
moment I started to change
00:11:37.99\00:11:40.06
is when I realized, "I
do not have to control him.
00:11:40.10\00:11:43.77
I can let go and let
him do what he wants to do,
00:11:43.80\00:11:46.23
it's not my responsibility.
00:11:46.27\00:11:47.77
I can walk away
if I'm under stress."
00:11:47.80\00:11:50.11
And in fact what they find is,
00:11:50.14\00:11:52.37
if we can back out of
an escalated situation
00:11:52.41\00:11:54.74
within one to three minutes,
00:11:54.78\00:11:56.64
it will not go
to seed so to speak.
00:11:56.68\00:11:59.48
In fact, they found that
married couples that argue,
00:11:59.51\00:12:02.65
but know when to
back out of an argument
00:12:02.68\00:12:05.69
are actually better
off than married couples
00:12:05.72\00:12:08.59
that never argue.
00:12:08.62\00:12:10.06
So it's not
fighting that's the problem,
00:12:10.09\00:12:11.99
it's fighting to the point
00:12:12.03\00:12:13.40
where we start
becoming angry, and irrational,
00:12:13.43\00:12:16.36
and losing perspective.
00:12:16.40\00:12:17.73
So learning how to back out
00:12:17.77\00:12:19.10
when you're at that
point is very, very important.
00:12:19.13\00:12:21.37
So I encourage
people to use time out.
00:12:21.40\00:12:24.77
I was going to say
the very same thing,
00:12:24.81\00:12:27.01
is that that's
what you have to have
00:12:27.04\00:12:28.64
is a little time out
to prevent the escalation.
00:12:28.68\00:12:31.41
If you know you're in
an escalated situation,
00:12:31.45\00:12:33.31
throw up a prayer to
have, and I say go vertical,
00:12:33.35\00:12:35.75
because you're in a
reactive cycle here,
00:12:35.78\00:12:38.22
and so if you go vertical
00:12:38.25\00:12:39.59
that's going to
break that reactive cycle.
00:12:39.62\00:12:41.46
And then ask that
person for a time out
00:12:41.49\00:12:44.13
and reschedule a time
when you could talk through it.
00:12:44.16\00:12:46.06
And that's the key point,
00:12:46.09\00:12:47.43
it's not that
you're just saying,
00:12:47.46\00:12:48.80
"Okay, enough.
00:12:48.83\00:12:50.17
I'm walking away."
00:12:50.20\00:12:51.53
It's, "Can you
give me 30 minutes?
00:12:51.57\00:12:52.90
Let me regain my balance here
00:12:52.93\00:12:57.51
and let's get back
together in 30 minutes."
00:12:57.54\00:12:58.87
Precisely, precisely.
00:12:58.91\00:13:00.24
And it's good for
couples for instance
00:13:00.28\00:13:02.01
to establish ahead of time
00:13:02.04\00:13:03.38
that either one of
them can call a time out
00:13:03.41\00:13:05.48
when they want, and it
doesn't mean you're withdrawing
00:13:05.51\00:13:08.02
or that you're stonewalling.
00:13:08.05\00:13:09.38
It just means you're
going to come back to it
00:13:09.42\00:13:10.75
when you're calm.
00:13:10.79\00:13:12.12
Amen. So that's
the first offence.
00:13:12.15\00:13:14.12
The first little
fox is Escalation.
00:13:14.16\00:13:16.39
Then another
one, it's more subtle,
00:13:16.42\00:13:18.09
is Invalidation.
00:13:18.13\00:13:21.03
It's really hard for me to
nail down what invalidation is,
00:13:21.06\00:13:23.93
but it's basically
putting a person down.
00:13:23.97\00:13:27.04
And shutting
them down oftentimes,
00:13:27.07\00:13:31.17
not really listening
to what they're saying
00:13:31.21\00:13:33.71
and validating their feelings.
00:13:33.74\00:13:36.38
So often we'll use
sentences that begin with why,
00:13:36.41\00:13:40.45
"Well, why didn't you
just tell him to go away?"
00:13:40.48\00:13:42.95
'Why' can come
across as an accusation,
00:13:42.98\00:13:44.89
so be careful of
sentences that start with why.
00:13:44.92\00:13:47.86
Another sentence starter
00:13:47.89\00:13:49.26
that's often an
invalidation is just,
00:13:49.29\00:13:52.06
"Well, just tell him
to come back tomorrow
00:13:52.09\00:13:53.60
or just don't think about it,"
00:13:53.63\00:13:55.30
or is that there's
some simple solution
00:13:55.33\00:13:57.30
that that person
hasn't thought of,
00:13:57.33\00:13:58.67
it's really kind of
a form of invalidation.
00:13:58.70\00:14:00.74
And 'shoulds' are
often invalidation,
00:14:00.77\00:14:02.90
"Well, you should be grateful.
00:14:02.94\00:14:04.41
You know, it's a
beautiful day out,
00:14:04.44\00:14:05.77
you should be
cheerful, and you're sad."
00:14:05.81\00:14:07.51
Really I'm invalidating
that person's feelings.
00:14:07.54\00:14:10.15
So one of the
most important ways
00:14:10.18\00:14:11.91
to prevent invalidation is
to be a reflective listener
00:14:11.95\00:14:15.78
and ask people
how they're doing.
00:14:15.82\00:14:17.15
And then when they tell
you, reflect it back to them.
00:14:17.19\00:14:19.89
And, you know,
some people will say,
00:14:19.92\00:14:21.32
"Well, this whole idea
of reflective listening,
00:14:21.36\00:14:24.36
you know, you want
me to be a parrot?"
00:14:24.39\00:14:26.80
And what we don't
understand is it doesn't come,
00:14:26.83\00:14:30.27
you can take
those very same people
00:14:30.30\00:14:33.23
and say to them,
if they're saying,
00:14:33.27\00:14:35.47
"Are you trying
to make me a parrot
00:14:35.50\00:14:37.11
or I'm just going
to say something back?"
00:14:37.14\00:14:38.47
And I said, "So you feel like
parroting would upset someone?"
00:14:38.51\00:14:43.11
"Well, you know," and it's like,
00:14:43.14\00:14:44.81
you've just used it on
them and they're calming down.
00:14:44.85\00:14:47.62
And they're calming down.
00:14:47.65\00:14:48.98
Exactly, exactly.
00:14:49.02\00:14:50.35
Yeah, so we don't, you know,
everybody wants to be heard,
00:14:50.39\00:14:52.79
people want to be understood.
00:14:52.82\00:14:54.39
I think that's
something that's very important
00:14:54.42\00:14:56.69
is people want to
feel like someone is
00:14:56.73\00:14:59.66
and trying to understand
them or understand them.
00:14:59.69\00:15:01.90
And when you use
that reflective listening,
00:15:01.93\00:15:05.23
often it does
deescalate something.
00:15:05.27\00:15:09.04
Oh, so much.
00:15:09.07\00:15:10.41
And often people really
don't want to necessarily
00:15:10.44\00:15:13.81
want to be agreed
with but they do want,
00:15:13.84\00:15:16.41
they'll be satisfied
just to be understood.
00:15:16.44\00:15:19.28
So you make such an
excellent point there.
00:15:19.31\00:15:21.58
So reflective
listening is a great way
00:15:21.62\00:15:23.45
to prevent invalidation,
00:15:23.49\00:15:24.82
just validating a
person's feelings.
00:15:24.85\00:15:27.32
The third little fox,
00:15:27.36\00:15:28.79
the third communication mistake
00:15:28.82\00:15:30.73
is what we call
Negative Interpretation.
00:15:30.76\00:15:33.56
So I think of the husband
00:15:33.60\00:15:34.93
that tries to give
his wife a compliment.
00:15:34.96\00:15:36.80
And he says, "You
look beautiful in blue,"
00:15:36.83\00:15:38.70
and she says, "You
think I look ugly in red?"
00:15:38.73\00:15:41.04
And he says, you know,
00:15:41.07\00:15:42.40
they say that the
gentlemen prefer blondes,
00:15:42.44\00:15:45.71
but I love your
dark hair, and she says,
00:15:45.74\00:15:47.74
"Oh, you've been
thinking about blondes, huh?"
00:15:47.78\00:15:50.05
No matter what the guy says,
he can't give her a compliment,
00:15:50.08\00:15:53.08
and not have her pass
it through this filter
00:15:53.11\00:15:56.48
that makes it
something negative.
00:15:56.52\00:15:57.95
This is very, very
damaging to relationships.
00:15:57.99\00:16:00.99
Yes.
00:16:01.02\00:16:02.36
And women I think are
particularly guilty of this,
00:16:02.39\00:16:05.49
although it can
happen either way.
00:16:05.53\00:16:07.00
No, I think you're
right that quite often
00:16:07.03\00:16:09.60
men are more
worse at invalidating.
00:16:09.63\00:16:13.90
They're more condescending
00:16:13.94\00:16:15.27
because women
are more emotional.
00:16:15.30\00:16:18.74
We listen with
both side of our brains,
00:16:18.77\00:16:21.24
and I think because women
are more emotionally tuned,
00:16:21.28\00:16:24.25
men will often
invalidate that emotion.
00:16:24.28\00:16:27.55
So men, and I'm not saying
00:16:27.58\00:16:29.55
that's always but quite
often it tends to be that way.
00:16:29.58\00:16:33.02
But as far as
negative interpretation tends
00:16:33.05\00:16:36.83
to be more of a woman thing.
00:16:36.86\00:16:38.69
It can very
often be a woman thing
00:16:38.73\00:16:40.73
'cause we make less serotonin,
our brains make less serotonin,
00:16:40.76\00:16:43.97
we tend to have more
anxiety and depression,
00:16:44.00\00:16:46.00
and therefore, tend to be
maybe more negatively biased.
00:16:46.03\00:16:48.94
So we hear something
00:16:48.97\00:16:50.31
and it passes
through that filter.
00:16:50.34\00:16:51.77
So the replacement behavior
for negative interpretation
00:16:51.81\00:16:54.81
is checking in
with that person saying,
00:16:54.84\00:16:57.15
"Did you mean to tell me that
00:16:57.18\00:16:59.18
you're thinking about
blondes all the time, honey?"
00:16:59.21\00:17:01.48
And he says, "No, I'm not
thinking about blondes at all,
00:17:01.52\00:17:03.65
I love your dark
hair, that's what I meant."
00:17:03.69\00:17:06.05
And then you believe the
guy, you know, very simple
00:17:06.09\00:17:09.19
and straightforward process
of just simply believing people
00:17:09.22\00:17:11.66
and trusting them.
00:17:11.69\00:17:13.09
So the fourth negative
communication problem is,
00:17:13.13\00:17:18.93
why am I forgetting, oh,
00:17:18.97\00:17:20.30
stonewalling or withdrawing
from the relationship.
00:17:20.34\00:17:24.27
Usually following
all of the first three,
00:17:24.31\00:17:26.57
you know, you engage
in enough escalation,
00:17:26.61\00:17:28.41
invalidation, and
negative interpretation,
00:17:28.44\00:17:30.01
you're going to want to
get out of that relationship.
00:17:30.05\00:17:32.38
So often people
will get into a situation
00:17:32.41\00:17:34.68
where they're just
not communicating at all
00:17:34.72\00:17:36.45
unfortunately.
00:17:36.48\00:17:37.92
And so, I like
to encourage people,
00:17:37.95\00:17:39.55
you know, be in the
constant posture of bridging
00:17:39.59\00:17:43.53
to that other person in
your relationship to them,
00:17:43.56\00:17:46.26
be constantly trying to build
a bridge from yourself to them
00:17:46.29\00:17:48.93
rather than
creating a stone wall
00:17:48.96\00:17:50.40
between you and them.
00:17:50.43\00:17:51.80
And a stone wall,
you're basically saying
00:17:51.83\00:17:53.64
this would be somebody that's
giving the silent treatment,
00:17:53.67\00:17:56.24
someone that is just walks away
00:17:56.27\00:17:58.87
and says, "I heard
it, I've heard enough,
00:17:58.91\00:18:01.28
I don't want to
talk about it anymore,"
00:18:01.31\00:18:03.14
never wants to
address the issue.
00:18:03.18\00:18:06.28
That's part of
stonewalling as well, right?
00:18:06.31\00:18:08.15
Yes, that's right, that's right.
00:18:08.18\00:18:09.52
Stonewalling is actually
00:18:09.55\00:18:11.85
the negative communication habit
00:18:11.89\00:18:14.66
that CPREP
identified as withdrawal
00:18:14.69\00:18:17.46
and stonewalling is
a type of withdrawal.
00:18:17.49\00:18:19.93
So withdrawal would be just
shutting down in a relationship
00:18:19.96\00:18:22.66
and not
engaging with that person
00:18:22.70\00:18:24.97
because you're so discouraged
00:18:25.00\00:18:26.50
with how the
relationship has gone.
00:18:26.53\00:18:28.67
You don't want to try
to deal with it anymore,
00:18:28.70\00:18:30.74
you just want to
withdraw and just co-exist.
00:18:30.77\00:18:34.64
This happens often
with married couples
00:18:34.68\00:18:36.75
where they're not
really engaging anymore,
00:18:36.78\00:18:38.45
they're not really
sharing much anymore,
00:18:38.48\00:18:40.68
and they're kind of
living separate lives.
00:18:40.72\00:18:42.58
They're just ships
passing in the night, roommates.
00:18:42.62\00:18:44.82
In the night, yes.
00:18:44.85\00:18:46.19
I was speaking
with someone recently
00:18:46.22\00:18:49.29
and she and her husband
are having some difficulties.
00:18:49.32\00:18:53.09
And it was...
00:18:53.13\00:18:56.60
The stonewalling is going on
00:18:56.63\00:18:59.00
in a major
fashion in their home.
00:18:59.03\00:19:02.30
And when I talk to her about,
00:19:02.34\00:19:04.74
you know, the most important
thing you can do right now is,
00:19:04.77\00:19:07.08
are you praying for
your husband every day?
00:19:07.11\00:19:08.54
I like that.
00:19:08.58\00:19:09.91
Day by day, are
you lifting him up
00:19:09.94\00:19:11.28
because he is God's son,
00:19:11.31\00:19:13.01
you know, the
way I used to do it,
00:19:13.05\00:19:15.72
just say, "Lord, he's Your son.
00:19:15.75\00:19:17.09
You deal with him," you know.
00:19:17.12\00:19:18.45
Yes. Amen.
00:19:18.49\00:19:20.26
And she says,
"Well, actually not."
00:19:20.29\00:19:22.22
And because I'm
trying to tell her
00:19:22.26\00:19:25.46
that if you're
going to see change,
00:19:25.49\00:19:26.83
you're going to
have to be the one
00:19:26.86\00:19:28.20
that's going to reach out.
00:19:28.23\00:19:29.56
She said, "I'm so tired
of doing all of forgiving,
00:19:29.60\00:19:31.53
I'm so tired, you
know, he will do these things
00:19:31.57\00:19:34.17
and be cruel
and say bad things."
00:19:34.20\00:19:38.47
I mean, name calling to
where she's very wounded.
00:19:38.51\00:19:43.95
And then he
stonewalls afterwards.
00:19:43.98\00:19:48.85
And she's ready just,
you know, let it go as well,
00:19:48.88\00:19:52.15
let him sleep on the
couch and she's in the bedroom.
00:19:52.19\00:19:55.32
How does when you've got one,
00:19:55.36\00:19:57.86
I mean, I highly recommend for
them professional counseling.
00:19:57.89\00:20:01.80
When you have
one person who is...
00:20:01.83\00:20:06.57
Apparently willing.
00:20:06.60\00:20:07.94
Apparently willing, and
is alert to the situation,
00:20:07.97\00:20:12.37
and the other person
00:20:12.41\00:20:13.94
who doesn't want anything to do,
00:20:13.98\00:20:16.44
where does a couple begin?
00:20:16.48\00:20:17.81
Yeah, I am going to
go out on a limb here
00:20:17.85\00:20:19.98
and say that I think
sometimes there's a place
00:20:20.02\00:20:22.48
for what I call
structure separation.
00:20:22.52\00:20:24.85
Now let me just
clarify, there is disagreement
00:20:24.89\00:20:26.99
within the
Christian counseling community
00:20:27.02\00:20:29.32
about the issue of separation,
00:20:29.36\00:20:30.89
and there are people
that I respect that say,
00:20:30.93\00:20:33.26
under almost no circumstances
should a couple separate
00:20:33.29\00:20:35.90
and it is true that
when couple separate,
00:20:35.93\00:20:37.63
it can often mean that
they're moving toward divorce,
00:20:37.67\00:20:41.27
or it can actually
make the gulf wider.
00:20:41.30\00:20:43.27
It can, it can work that way.
00:20:43.30\00:20:45.61
But I recommend
structured separation
00:20:45.64\00:20:49.04
where there is a context of hope
00:20:49.08\00:20:53.01
and a specific object toward
00:20:53.05\00:20:56.28
which that
individual that is implementing
00:20:56.32\00:20:58.42
the structured
separation is striving.
00:20:58.45\00:21:01.82
So for instance, in the
situation you described,
00:21:01.86\00:21:05.06
if there's
verbal abuse going on,
00:21:05.09\00:21:07.40
the wife could
say to the husband,
00:21:07.43\00:21:09.20
"I'm not willing
to live with this."
00:21:09.23\00:21:11.47
It's unacceptable.
00:21:11.50\00:21:12.83
That's what I always teach.
00:21:12.87\00:21:14.20
They're unacceptable.
00:21:14.24\00:21:15.57
"And we could do
better than this.
00:21:15.60\00:21:16.94
And you are better than this.
00:21:16.97\00:21:19.04
You don't have to
be living this way.
00:21:19.07\00:21:21.31
We don't have to
be living this way.
00:21:21.34\00:21:22.84
We're capable of so much more.
00:21:22.88\00:21:25.01
I love you.
00:21:25.05\00:21:26.51
I don't believe in divorce.
00:21:26.55\00:21:28.25
I will not divorce
you and marry another.
00:21:28.28\00:21:30.95
You are it for me.
00:21:30.99\00:21:32.92
I'm committed to
this relationship.
00:21:32.95\00:21:35.02
But if we don't get help,
00:21:35.06\00:21:37.43
I'm not willing to live
00:21:37.46\00:21:38.79
in these
circumstances any longer."
00:21:38.83\00:21:40.73
That's a structured separation
00:21:40.76\00:21:42.10
because you've created
a context of commitment
00:21:42.13\00:21:44.80
and love but
within that context,
00:21:44.83\00:21:47.60
you've confronted the
sin in that person's life,
00:21:47.64\00:21:50.47
and you've
pushed them to the point
00:21:50.51\00:21:52.31
where they have
to make a decision.
00:21:52.34\00:21:53.68
And what's often the case
and now we're getting to male,
00:21:53.71\00:21:55.84
female psychology but men often
don't listen to what women say,
00:21:55.88\00:22:00.55
but they do
listen to what they do.
00:22:00.58\00:22:02.65
And so often
it's the wife saying,
00:22:02.68\00:22:04.12
"Hey, look, I'm not willing,
I got a place to move to,
00:22:04.15\00:22:07.62
I've got two months that
I'm going to you know try this,
00:22:07.66\00:22:10.63
if something doesn't
change, we don't get help,
00:22:10.66\00:22:12.43
I'm going to move out."
00:22:12.46\00:22:13.80
You know, sometimes the
man will listen at that point.
00:22:13.83\00:22:15.86
I hate to say and I wish I
could say that you just stay
00:22:15.90\00:22:18.27
and keep praying, but sometimes,
00:22:18.30\00:22:20.54
you have to take action
00:22:20.57\00:22:21.90
if you really want
things to get better.
00:22:21.94\00:22:23.41
And I know, I
mean, and I realize
00:22:23.44\00:22:25.44
we are kind of
stepping out on a limb
00:22:25.47\00:22:27.08
because we are not, you
know, this is in extreme cases.
00:22:27.11\00:22:30.48
But I do know an extreme case
00:22:30.51\00:22:32.01
where a Christian counselor told
00:22:32.05\00:22:33.85
and they were actually
friends of ours in Dallas
00:22:33.88\00:22:35.68
and he told them that
their marriage was so damaged,
00:22:35.72\00:22:39.32
that marriage of 23
years was so damaged
00:22:39.35\00:22:42.49
that they needed to...
00:22:42.52\00:22:44.49
The husband actually,
00:22:44.53\00:22:46.33
he had to move
out for six months.
00:22:46.36\00:22:49.16
But they had a
date night every week.
00:22:49.20\00:22:52.77
That's good.
00:22:52.80\00:22:54.14
They had luncheon, you
know, they saw each other
00:22:54.17\00:22:58.31
and I think they saw
each other perhaps every day
00:22:58.34\00:23:01.28
but he had to give
her a hug every day,
00:23:01.31\00:23:04.05
you know, every time he saw her.
00:23:04.08\00:23:05.41
And I remember what
he said, Harold said,
00:23:05.45\00:23:08.42
"Oh, I can't stand
this, it's so silly,
00:23:08.45\00:23:10.59
you know, I've got to hug her,"
00:23:10.62\00:23:12.75
and within about six
weeks, he was saying,
00:23:12.79\00:23:18.09
"Boy, I just can't
wait to hug her every day,"
00:23:18.13\00:23:21.13
and when they
did, their marriage
00:23:21.16\00:23:23.63
when they got back together
their marriage was better,
00:23:23.67\00:23:26.74
she said, than it had ever been.
00:23:26.77\00:23:28.40
Oh, that's fabulous.
00:23:28.44\00:23:29.77
Because they were seeing,
00:23:29.80\00:23:31.24
they were going
through counseling at the time.
00:23:31.27\00:23:33.58
But it just
didn't work with them
00:23:33.61\00:23:36.75
being in the
same home at the time
00:23:36.78\00:23:38.81
because there
was so much damage.
00:23:38.85\00:23:41.58
Yeah, that's an
excellent example
00:23:41.62\00:23:43.25
of structured separation
00:23:43.28\00:23:44.75
where you in the
context of commitment and love,
00:23:44.79\00:23:47.82
you admit what's wrong with
the relationship first of all,
00:23:47.86\00:23:50.63
and you do something
00:23:50.66\00:23:52.03
that can help kind of restart
the process of really courting,
00:23:52.06\00:23:55.46
I mean, that's what
that counselor does,
00:23:55.50\00:23:56.97
he implemented a courtship
00:23:57.00\00:23:59.07
kind of
situation for that couple,
00:23:59.10\00:24:01.64
and it worked to
restart the affection process.
00:24:01.67\00:24:04.97
But I do want to emphasize,
we're not recommending that
00:24:05.01\00:24:07.74
just because
you're having problems,
00:24:07.78\00:24:09.11
one of you move out for a while,
00:24:09.14\00:24:10.48
because sometimes,
00:24:10.51\00:24:11.85
and particularly
when it's not structured,
00:24:11.88\00:24:14.28
you can end up going
in the opposite direction.
00:24:14.32\00:24:16.02
That's right.
00:24:16.05\00:24:17.39
But this is for
extreme cases, abuse,
00:24:17.42\00:24:20.12
you know, if your children
and then this situation,
00:24:20.16\00:24:22.59
as wonderful person
as he was, he had become,
00:24:22.62\00:24:26.26
started having
such explosive anger
00:24:26.29\00:24:29.83
that he vided out
and he didn't remember
00:24:29.86\00:24:32.87
what he was doing.
00:24:32.90\00:24:34.24
And she felt it was
affecting their teenage children
00:24:34.27\00:24:37.14
and so they just said,
"Okay, this is unacceptable,"
00:24:37.17\00:24:40.91
you know.
00:24:40.94\00:24:42.28
This is what we have to do.
00:24:42.31\00:24:43.65
And he responded,
they both responded.
00:24:43.68\00:24:46.05
I mean, they both realized
their area that they do...
00:24:46.08\00:24:50.92
How they were
contributing to their problems.
00:24:50.95\00:24:52.89
I like what you
said about prayer like,
00:24:52.92\00:24:55.59
I mentioned in the
last session we taped.
00:24:55.62\00:24:57.89
There are two things going
on in the counseling situation.
00:24:57.93\00:25:00.80
I'm trying to bring
tools to people and help them
00:25:00.83\00:25:03.57
know what to do in
these different situations,
00:25:03.60\00:25:06.37
but there's also a
kind of a reliance on God
00:25:06.40\00:25:09.30
and His Spirit that we
really have to cultivate
00:25:09.34\00:25:11.77
and kind of integrate
00:25:11.81\00:25:13.14
into the process of
taking action steps.
00:25:13.17\00:25:15.74
So a lot of times we forget
00:25:15.78\00:25:17.28
that really
ultimately it's up to God,
00:25:17.31\00:25:19.58
and divine
intervention to really catalyze
00:25:19.61\00:25:23.32
that transformation
process and none of us
00:25:23.35\00:25:25.85
apart from that
external source of power
00:25:25.89\00:25:28.49
coming from God
being poured out upon us
00:25:28.52\00:25:31.29
can experience what it
is to love and be loved.
00:25:31.33\00:25:34.20
Amen.
00:25:34.23\00:25:35.56
So as you've been studying,
00:25:35.60\00:25:38.43
you said that you grew up
in a dysfunctional environment,
00:25:38.47\00:25:41.27
but as you have
studied and applied
00:25:41.30\00:25:43.00
what you've
studied from social science
00:25:43.04\00:25:45.91
as well as from the
Bible, tell us just briefly?
00:25:45.94\00:25:48.84
It's made a huge
difference for me.
00:25:48.88\00:25:50.21
I struggled with
depression for many years
00:25:50.25\00:25:52.75
and getting into counseling
00:25:52.78\00:25:54.12
kind of marked a
turning point for me,
00:25:54.15\00:25:55.72
and I'm not sure if
it's whether I learned about
00:25:55.75\00:25:58.72
how to treat depression.
00:25:58.75\00:26:00.09
I think it's partly that
00:26:00.12\00:26:01.46
but I think it's also being
there to help other people.
00:26:01.49\00:26:04.23
I'm constantly helping
other people out of depression
00:26:04.26\00:26:06.46
and it sort of
served to help me out of it.
00:26:06.49\00:26:09.86
I'm more conscientious about
how I conduct relationships.
00:26:09.90\00:26:14.87
It used to be that I would,
00:26:14.90\00:26:16.30
you know, kind of
check off the list of things
00:26:16.34\00:26:18.64
I was supposed to do
in terms of my faith,
00:26:18.67\00:26:21.21
you know, all the things
that I was supposed to do
00:26:21.24\00:26:23.01
as a good
Christian but I've realized
00:26:23.04\00:26:25.18
since then that
all the law boils down
00:26:25.21\00:26:27.88
to love your
neighbor as yourself,
00:26:27.92\00:26:29.55
Paul said that twice.
00:26:29.58\00:26:31.42
And there is a
phrase in the New Testament,
00:26:31.45\00:26:34.76
ah-LAY-loan,
which is one and other.
00:26:34.79\00:26:37.79
It's translated one and other.
00:26:37.83\00:26:39.16
And it's all about us
doing for one and another,
00:26:39.19\00:26:41.70
and being in relationship
with one and another.
00:26:41.73\00:26:43.93
And as I've seen
00:26:43.97\00:26:45.30
how this principle
of love for one another
00:26:45.33\00:26:47.70
is so prominent in scripture
00:26:47.74\00:26:49.30
and really the law
all comes down to that,
00:26:49.34\00:26:51.04
I've been much
more conscientious
00:26:51.07\00:26:52.51
about how I
conduct relationships,
00:26:52.54\00:26:55.38
and I think
more effective at it,
00:26:55.41\00:26:57.71
not perfect by any
stretch of the imagination.
00:26:57.75\00:27:00.08
Oh, Jennifer, our
time is already all gone.
00:27:00.12\00:27:01.95
Thank you so much for coming.
00:27:01.98\00:27:03.32
And just I'm going to close
with a scripture that pertains
00:27:03.35\00:27:05.99
to what you've just said,
00:27:06.02\00:27:07.36
Paul said in 1
Thessalonians 3:12-13.
00:27:07.39\00:27:10.29
He said, "I pray that God
will cause you to increase
00:27:10.33\00:27:13.03
and abound in love
00:27:13.06\00:27:14.40
so that he may
perfect you in holiness."
00:27:14.43\00:27:18.30
The more we learn to love
00:27:18.33\00:27:20.50
and relying on the power
of the Holy Spirit to do so,
00:27:20.54\00:27:24.34
the more we'll become
like God because God is love.
00:27:24.37\00:27:27.61
And that's what
how we become holy
00:27:27.64\00:27:31.35
is the more loving we are,
00:27:31.38\00:27:33.38
as we grow in love,
we grow in holiness.
00:27:33.42\00:27:36.38
So keep that thought today
00:27:36.42\00:27:39.15
and practice
these wonderful things
00:27:39.19\00:27:42.22
to overcome the
negative behavior,
00:27:42.26\00:27:45.03
the negative
communication behavior.
00:27:45.06\00:27:47.20