Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
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And we welcome you
again to Issues and Answers.
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This is a program
where we talk about issues
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that are relevant
to your life, things,
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problems that people
have really around the world.
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And today we're going to
be talking about something
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that I think is very critical
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and that is healing from trauma.
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Posttraumatic stress syndrome
but not just for war veterans
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who are coming home, but
individuals like you and me
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who have been through a
traumatic event in our lives.
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And how that affects
us mentally, emotionally,
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even physically.
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So our special guest
today and I'm so excited
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that she's here with us
is Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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And Jennifer is from
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
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She is a licensed
professional counselor
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and an author.
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Jennifer, we are so glad
that you're here with us today.
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Welcome. Good to be here.
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Glad to be here. I
have to say, you...
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You have, God has given
you such a gift of expression.
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You write such beautiful things.
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And I'm so glad
I'm on your e-mail list
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because I get your
updates from time to time,
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and it's just a
treasure to read them.
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You know I see it as
knitting like women knit or say,
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I see it as knitting words.
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I do it as kind
of a hobby. Yeah.
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That's beautiful. Yeah.
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Before we hop into our topic,
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you have been a
frequent guest on 3ABN,
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but we've got so
many new viewers from
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that are added every day.
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Tell us a little
bit about your life?
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Oh, my life.
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Well, I live in
the Philadelphia area
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and I run a
private counseling practice
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out of my home office.
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And I write books and articles
and I'm also a musician.
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I live with my husband.
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We have two grown children
and I have an adorable dog.
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What is his name?
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His name is Fred.
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Fred, we were just
talking about she said...
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And I miss him. Yes.
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She said that she was almost
obsessed with it because...
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Yeah, I love my dog.
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He is, it's an
easy relationship.
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It's an easy
relationship. That's right.
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Now, did you grow
up in a Christian home?
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No. Well, I did.
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I would call it a
nominal Christian home.
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We did attend church.
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I wouldn't say that I had
a walk with Jesus growing up.
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No.
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That came to me
at 18, 19 years old,
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when I met him
for the first time.
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Why don't we, that's...
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That's a whole different story.
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I know, I've just said,
okay, let's talk about that,
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but we want to jump
into our topic for today.
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Yeah.
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You were telling me and
sharing just a little of a story
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about Eugene when we
were in the greenroom.
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Tell us about Eugene?
Yes, Eugene, a client of mine.
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And he is a very
good illustration
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of what I'm going to
be talking about today
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which is trauma recovery.
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His whole story really
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has the
signature of God upon it.
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And I'll give
it to you in brief.
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Eugene came to me
after his wife died,
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he is in his late
40s and Eugene's history
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is one of the most desperate
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and horrible
that I've ever heard.
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This man was raised
in a very abusive home
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and was violently
abused, sexually and physically
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by his father from
the time he was three.
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So he went through
that horrific childhood
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where his moral sensibilities
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were affected
by the environment,
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like he just didn't even
really know the difference
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between right and wrong.
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So Eugene came into
adulthood, severely compromised
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and interestingly enough,
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his father was a
deacon of a church.
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So he came into
adulthood very compromised
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and unfortunately developed
his own sexual addiction.
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I think out of the environment
which he'd been raised
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and the trauma he'd experienced.
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And unfortunately some of
that sexual addiction involved
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child
pornography which is illegal.
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Well, he didn't even
really understand that.
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In fact, he remembers
the moment it came to him
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in a counseling session
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that it was truly
exploitive to children
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and that it was illegal to
even view child pornography.
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This is how compromised
his moral understanding was.
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And so Eugene
came into adulthood
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very compromised,
terrible pornography addiction.
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He was married and his wife died
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and that's what drove
him to come to counseling.
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It was a wake up call
that God used to get him
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to the place where
he wanted to do anything
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to get out of that lifestyle.
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And so he came to counseling
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and he was the most
serious recovery client
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I've ever had.
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He was so committed to recovery
and the Lord blessed him.
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And very quickly he
got out of that lifestyle.
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The sort of
addendum to the story is that
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he was in the
process of cleaning off
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the hard drives.
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He had many hard
drives in his home
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that had these images on them.
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He was a kind of a computer geek
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and so he has lots
and lots of hard drives.
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And he was in the
process of cleaning them off
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and you have to
hook your hard drive up
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to a computer and
he hooked his phone up
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around the same time
and accidentally uploaded
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all of those images
to what we call the cloud
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and the
Internet service provider
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found those images,
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sent the county to his
door with eight detectives.
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And now he's facing jail
time. Oh, bless his heart.
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And you know, it breaks my heart
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because this man has already,
he's not a danger to children,
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he's out of the lifestyle.
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It's true he broke the
law, and the law is the law.
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At the same time,
it makes my heart ache
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because he's already had
so much difficulty in his life
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and I just feel
like, going to prison
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is just one
more insult upon him,
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but I have to
surrender it to the Lord
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and he surrenders it
to the Lord and says,
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they meant it for evil
but God meant it for good,
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just like Joseph said
of his time in prison.
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So no matter, you know,
this is what impressed me
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when you were talking about
him in the greenroom was that
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this was a man who
came to you very broken,
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but as you introduced him
to God and he really got to see
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the picture of a
loving God, you mentioned that
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for everything
he's been through,
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he still has a
very buoyant spirit.
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He's incredible.
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He is so
completely free of self-pity.
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Many people that have
been through abuse struggle
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with self-pity
and for good reason,
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you can almost give
them the right to that
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but it doesn't
tend to help them really
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when they even wallow
in what happened to them.
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He is a quite
different than that,
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he's a very, very positive,
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very, very
unwilling to be bitter
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and resentful toward his father.
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He's gone through the
process of forgiving his father.
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And he's in spite
of all that's going on
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in his life, he's very positive.
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Anybody that can say,
the devil meant it for evil
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but God meant it for good.
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That is absolutely
true. That's right.
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And everything,
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this is the
amazing thing about God.
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You know, He doesn't cause evil,
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the devil causes
evil, but God allows evil
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because He has to
allow sin to manifest itself
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for what it really is.
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He has to allow us
the freedom to sin.
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And so He allows
evil but what He does is,
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He's constantly in
the process of then
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owning that those things,
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those unfortunate
things that happen
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and turning them
into really monuments
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for His glory if
people will allow Him
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to work with them and
that's what He has done
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in Eugene's life.
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He's going to use
this man in prison
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if that's where he ends up
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and it looks like
he will end up there.
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Well, let me ask
you this question.
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Would you say
that Eugene suffered
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from
posttraumatic stress syndrome?
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I do believe he did.
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In fact there
was a period of time
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when memories were coming
back, he was having nightmares,
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he would even
react in such a way
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that he would wake up
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with a physical
marks on his body
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as a result of nightmares about
getting attacked by his father.
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And so he was having
severe PTSD symptoms.
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And we had to work through...
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When you said,
"physical marks," excuse me!
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Yeah, I know, I know.
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You're saying, it can
warp some things, right?
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Hard to believe but apparently
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there's such an
intimate relationship
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between the body and the mind
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that this is not
an uncommon thing.
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You know, it is not
that difficult for me
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to believe in,
when I was in college
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we did a test in
psychology, where we took
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and it was meant
to be an innocent test
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but, something we
were curious about.
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We took an ice
cube, blindfolded someone,
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put an ice cube on their
arm, and at the very same time
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took a branding iron to a steak,
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and seared the steak
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which was
releasing the smell of flesh.
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Okay.
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A smell of
flesh, just in the room,
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and just his brain
smelling the smell of flesh,
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feeling the ice
cube which I guess,
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the brain distinguish
whether it was an ice cube
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or a hot searing iron.
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He actually got a very bad
burn where the ice cube touched.
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Isn't that something?
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And so the brain is
reacting, that is something.
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And this man had
those kinds of experiences
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where he would wake
up with marks on his body
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that correlated with
whatever dream he had,
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very, very bizarre.
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So he went through a process
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of really
processing that trauma,
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but at this point he
has pretty much let go
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and come out the other
end, so it's really a miracle.
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Okay, so what are...
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Give us the
symptoms because I'm sure
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that there's
someone who's watching
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that will want to know,
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what are the symptoms of
posttraumatic stress syndrome?
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Because someone
could be in a bad accident,
00:09:36.27\00:09:38.27
they can witness a murder.
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They could have
physical or sexual abuse.
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There's so many things
that can happen that causes.
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What are the symptoms? Right.
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The three classic
markers for PTS syndrome,
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they're calling it syndrome
now because they figure,
00:09:51.39\00:09:52.99
it's not really a
disorder, it means,
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it's an
appropriate response to trauma.
00:09:54.56\00:09:56.83
So the three
markers are nightmares,
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flashbacks and
extreme trigger ability
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where you get around anything
that reminds you of that trauma
00:10:02.90\00:10:06.03
and you go back to that place.
00:10:06.07\00:10:08.40
So let me clarify on
00:10:08.44\00:10:10.01
how normal memory
processing takes place
00:10:10.04\00:10:12.67
and that will help us understand
00:10:12.71\00:10:14.18
posttraumatic stress.
00:10:14.21\00:10:15.54
Normal memory
processing involves experiencing
00:10:15.58\00:10:19.71
some kind of trauma
00:10:19.75\00:10:21.38
and then for usually
a couple of days anyway,
00:10:21.42\00:10:24.55
after that trauma,
you kind of are still
00:10:24.59\00:10:27.06
in that emotional place.
00:10:27.09\00:10:28.42
For instance, you
have a car accident,
00:10:28.46\00:10:30.53
and for the next 24
hours every time you remember
00:10:30.56\00:10:33.33
the car accident, you feel
those feelings all over again,
00:10:33.36\00:10:36.36
but gradually as
you process that memory,
00:10:36.40\00:10:39.43
the mind takes out the
emotional charge so that,
00:10:39.47\00:10:42.84
it's kind of like a
filing system in the brain
00:10:42.87\00:10:44.71
where you can file the
memory in terms of fact
00:10:44.74\00:10:47.68
and you can recall that memory
00:10:47.71\00:10:49.11
without
re-experiencing those emotions.
00:10:49.14\00:10:51.31
That is normal
healthy memory processing.
00:10:51.35\00:10:55.08
I have a friend who lost her leg
00:10:55.12\00:10:57.09
in a car accident
and she was telling me
00:10:57.12\00:10:59.42
about the experience
and how she lost her leg,
00:10:59.45\00:11:02.89
and she went through
all the details of that,
00:11:02.92\00:11:04.79
and the thing that
was remarkable about her
00:11:04.83\00:11:06.73
telling me this is that
she was smiling the whole time,
00:11:06.76\00:11:09.10
but that was because
she processed the event.
00:11:09.13\00:11:11.80
She had loved
ones, family support,
00:11:11.83\00:11:13.70
she talked about
it, talked it through
00:11:13.74\00:11:15.50
and her brain
was able to process
00:11:15.54\00:11:17.24
to where she
can recall the facts
00:11:17.27\00:11:18.84
without re-experiencing it.
00:11:18.87\00:11:20.54
What happens with
posttraumatic stress,
00:11:20.58\00:11:22.18
it is thought is
that that processing
00:11:22.21\00:11:24.38
never really took place.
00:11:24.41\00:11:26.11
The memory is
inadequately processed
00:11:26.15\00:11:28.02
or ineffectively
processed, and the nightmares,
00:11:28.05\00:11:30.99
and the flashbacks,
and the trigger ability
00:11:31.02\00:11:33.39
are the brain's
attempt to bring that trauma
00:11:33.42\00:11:36.93
to the front so to speak
00:11:36.96\00:11:38.86
so that that person can
successfully process it.
00:11:38.89\00:11:42.30
But there's
something broken in the way
00:11:42.33\00:11:43.97
that it's being processed
00:11:44.00\00:11:45.33
and that's
where therapy comes in
00:11:45.37\00:11:46.70
and that's what we
try to correct in therapy.
00:11:46.74\00:11:49.00
Okay, so you've treated Eugene.
00:11:49.04\00:11:50.64
Have you treated
others who have...
00:11:50.67\00:11:52.94
What are some of the
things in your practice
00:11:52.97\00:11:56.54
that you've seen the issues
00:11:56.58\00:11:58.38
that have created
posttraumatic stress?
00:11:58.41\00:12:00.92
Abuse is a big one for me.
00:12:00.95\00:12:02.82
I don't treat
very many veterans,
00:12:02.85\00:12:06.09
but a lot of abuse,
sexual abuse victims,
00:12:06.12\00:12:08.72
physical abuse
victims and so, yes,
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.26
I have worked with many
victims that are suffering
00:12:11.29\00:12:14.03
from one form of
trauma or another.
00:12:14.06\00:12:16.36
So there are a few
different therapies
00:12:16.40\00:12:18.80
that have actually been
scientifically validated,
00:12:18.83\00:12:21.40
and it's very
interesting how they work.
00:12:21.44\00:12:24.27
One of them, and
this seems a little,
00:12:24.31\00:12:26.27
a little sketchy
maybe to some people.
00:12:26.31\00:12:29.98
By the way, I'm
against hypnosis.
00:12:30.01\00:12:31.78
I don't like
hypnosis because in hypnosis
00:12:31.81\00:12:34.18
one person's mind is controlling
00:12:34.22\00:12:36.22
another person's mind.
00:12:36.25\00:12:37.59
And I don't think we
should ever surrender our will
00:12:37.62\00:12:39.82
to another person.
00:12:39.85\00:12:41.26
There's a therapy
that actually works
00:12:41.29\00:12:43.16
for posttraumatic stress,
00:12:43.19\00:12:44.53
that on the surface
it looks like hypnosis
00:12:44.56\00:12:46.80
but it is really very different
00:12:46.83\00:12:48.16
because the person
retains their free will.
00:12:48.20\00:12:50.40
And it's called Eye
Movement Desensitization
00:12:50.43\00:12:52.93
and Reprocessing, EMDR.
00:12:52.97\00:12:55.40
And it was discovered by a woman
00:12:55.44\00:12:56.77
named Francine Shapiro,
00:12:56.81\00:12:58.14
who was thinking
about a traumatic event
00:12:58.17\00:13:00.01
when she was in a park one day.
00:13:00.04\00:13:01.74
And she was
looking across the horizon,
00:13:01.78\00:13:04.61
looking at the
trees, and the birds,
00:13:04.65\00:13:06.31
and the lake and so forth.
00:13:06.35\00:13:07.68
And realized that as she
moved her eyes in that fashion,
00:13:07.72\00:13:12.02
she didn't feel as traumatized
by the memory of this trauma.
00:13:12.05\00:13:17.43
And so she put
together a form of therapy
00:13:17.46\00:13:20.40
that moved the
eyes back and forth
00:13:20.43\00:13:22.23
through the field of
vision to what they call
00:13:22.26\00:13:24.43
bilateralize the brain,
00:13:24.47\00:13:26.17
activate both
hemispheres of the brain.
00:13:26.20\00:13:28.30
And they're not sure why?
00:13:28.34\00:13:29.67
But they know
that when the brain
00:13:29.70\00:13:31.37
is fully activated like that,
it tends to process better.
00:13:31.41\00:13:34.94
And so what I do is,
sometimes the clinicians
00:13:34.98\00:13:37.78
will use a light
going back and forth
00:13:37.81\00:13:40.15
and that's where it
starts looking like hypnosis.
00:13:40.18\00:13:41.92
I don't do that kind of thing.
I just take people outside.
00:13:41.95\00:13:44.39
And I say, look at
that beautiful tree
00:13:44.42\00:13:45.75
and look at the
bird and let's talk about
00:13:45.79\00:13:47.59
what you went through
in this context of nature.
00:13:47.62\00:13:50.53
I have a
beautiful park near my house
00:13:50.56\00:13:52.06
and sometimes we take walks
00:13:52.09\00:13:53.43
and I try to get
their eyes moving
00:13:53.46\00:13:55.70
while they're
talking about the trauma
00:13:55.73\00:13:57.87
and that can sometimes help them
00:13:57.90\00:13:59.63
process it effectively.
00:13:59.67\00:14:01.10
That is fascinating.
Isn't that fascinating?
00:14:01.14\00:14:02.64
Yeah, it's very
interesting. Yes, it is.
00:14:02.67\00:14:04.11
Another way of
dealing with trauma.
00:14:04.14\00:14:06.17
And I have a
number of distance clients
00:14:06.21\00:14:08.94
where I meet with
them on the phone or Skype.
00:14:08.98\00:14:11.11
So I can't take them for walks,
at least I haven't tried yet.
00:14:11.15\00:14:15.05
It would be interesting,
00:14:15.08\00:14:16.42
but I do deep relaxation
with them, deep breathing
00:14:16.45\00:14:20.72
and tensing and
relaxing their muscles,
00:14:20.76\00:14:22.56
getting them in a
very relaxed state,
00:14:22.59\00:14:24.23
praying with them
and then in that context
00:14:24.26\00:14:26.86
of the trusting
relationship with me
00:14:26.90\00:14:29.26
and their deeply relaxed state,
00:14:29.30\00:14:31.27
they review that
traumatic material
00:14:31.30\00:14:33.40
and sometimes they
can form a new association
00:14:33.44\00:14:36.10
between I'm relaxed,
and I can remember this
00:14:36.14\00:14:39.21
while I'm relaxed rather than
always being in a rouse state
00:14:39.24\00:14:42.98
when they're remembering
that particular trauma.
00:14:43.01\00:14:45.55
So that's another thing
that can sometimes work.
00:14:45.58\00:14:48.48
The most important
thing that we can do though
00:14:48.52\00:14:50.39
and this is
something anyone can do,
00:14:50.42\00:14:51.75
you don't have to
have any special training,
00:14:51.79\00:14:53.15
be a good listener.
00:14:53.19\00:14:54.99
Because being able
to share the trauma,
00:14:55.02\00:14:58.89
the difficulty that
that person went through,
00:14:58.93\00:15:01.03
the pain that they endured
00:15:01.06\00:15:02.96
is a big part of
them being able to let go.
00:15:03.00\00:15:06.20
If people can
just talk to someone
00:15:06.23\00:15:09.17
about what they went through.
00:15:09.20\00:15:10.54
And if that person will
exercise good listening skills,
00:15:10.57\00:15:14.71
reflecting back to them
what they're hearing them say,
00:15:14.74\00:15:17.31
asking probing
questions to draw them out.
00:15:17.35\00:15:20.55
A lot of times
that's all a person needs
00:15:20.58\00:15:22.45
to be able to
let go of that trauma
00:15:22.48\00:15:25.29
because we human beings are...
00:15:25.32\00:15:27.59
We love to hang on to history.
00:15:27.62\00:15:29.16
You know, we have
this tremendous drive
00:15:29.19\00:15:30.89
to archive things
00:15:30.93\00:15:32.66
and to hang on to
our personal history.
00:15:32.69\00:15:34.80
And sometimes, if we can
share with another person
00:15:34.83\00:15:37.47
and maybe they
even write it down
00:15:37.50\00:15:39.23
that gives us a sense
of, we know where it is,
00:15:39.27\00:15:41.34
we can let go now.
00:15:41.37\00:15:43.07
So yeah. It's interesting.
00:15:43.10\00:15:44.44
But I think that we do
hang on to things particularly,
00:15:44.47\00:15:47.28
it seems that a lot of people
are prone to negative events
00:15:47.31\00:15:51.78
in their life have made
a greater emotional impact
00:15:51.81\00:15:54.65
and memory is created
00:15:54.68\00:15:57.39
when there is an
emotional impact.
00:15:57.42\00:15:58.99
So a lot people hang on to those
00:15:59.02\00:16:02.06
and they won't let
them go to God though.
00:16:02.09\00:16:03.89
You bring up such
a really good point
00:16:03.93\00:16:05.93
because there is a
very fine line here.
00:16:05.96\00:16:08.30
We want to process these events
00:16:08.33\00:16:10.87
but we don't
want to over process
00:16:10.90\00:16:12.87
and because the mind
is negatively biased,
00:16:12.90\00:16:15.70
we tend to be problem focused,
00:16:15.74\00:16:17.21
we tend to be negatively
biased as human beings.
00:16:17.24\00:16:20.01
We have to be proactive
about focusing on the positive.
00:16:20.04\00:16:23.31
So what I find is that
00:16:23.35\00:16:25.15
people will fall
into one of two ditches,
00:16:25.18\00:16:26.92
they'll lock up and they
won't talk about the event
00:16:26.95\00:16:29.55
and they'll stuff it and then
it will come out another way,
00:16:29.58\00:16:32.25
either through physical symptoms
00:16:32.29\00:16:33.89
or they'll start having
anxiety or different, you know,
00:16:33.92\00:16:37.19
maladaptive
behaviors so to speak
00:16:37.23\00:16:40.06
or people talk
about it too much,
00:16:40.10\00:16:41.76
and they dwell upon it too
much and they over process.
00:16:41.80\00:16:44.63
And like you said, they
won't let go of it to God.
00:16:44.67\00:16:47.54
And they end up
actually driving the thorns
00:16:47.57\00:16:49.77
more deeply into
their flesh so to speak.
00:16:49.80\00:16:52.11
And how do you get
someone who does, there are...
00:16:52.14\00:16:55.11
And I seem to run into
quite a number of people
00:16:55.14\00:16:59.01
who rehearse their problems
00:16:59.05\00:17:02.02
again and again and
again and you can get...
00:17:02.05\00:17:04.85
If they get focused
in on the Word of God
00:17:04.89\00:17:07.16
and they're
focusing on His promises,
00:17:07.19\00:17:09.46
for a while that will
bring them out of that
00:17:09.49\00:17:11.43
but just let something
trigger it and then they,
00:17:11.46\00:17:14.56
they just pushed right
back down into that ditch
00:17:14.60\00:17:17.53
of rehearsing the past.
00:17:17.57\00:17:20.50
What do you do
with someone like that?
00:17:20.54\00:17:22.80
Sent him to a
professional counselor?
00:17:22.84\00:17:24.81
Well, yes, in a way
or you can approach it
00:17:24.84\00:17:29.41
with a more
structured approach yourself
00:17:29.44\00:17:31.78
because what happens with people
00:17:31.81\00:17:33.65
that are processing
and that are kind of stuck
00:17:33.68\00:17:36.35
in negativity is a lot of times
they become draining socially.
00:17:36.38\00:17:40.62
And so people will
start avoiding them.
00:17:40.66\00:17:42.76
So what I like to do
in situations like that
00:17:42.79\00:17:45.19
is try to structure the time
00:17:45.23\00:17:47.30
and I will be
very honest with them.
00:17:47.33\00:17:49.56
This is a difficult thing to do,
00:17:49.60\00:17:51.50
but I will be very
honest with them and say,
00:17:51.53\00:17:53.00
you're talking
about this quite a lot.
00:17:53.03\00:17:56.00
And I want to be
able to help you,
00:17:56.04\00:17:58.67
but I have limited
time and limited energy.
00:17:58.71\00:18:01.48
So if we can keep it
to one half hour today,
00:18:01.51\00:18:04.31
we'll talk about it and then
can we for the rest of the day
00:18:04.35\00:18:07.85
not talk about it at all.
00:18:07.88\00:18:09.48
And then if you need
to talk about it again,
00:18:09.52\00:18:11.02
we'll set up
another appointment.
00:18:11.05\00:18:12.59
So I'll be very
boundaried and very structured
00:18:12.62\00:18:16.49
in my listening but
when I have a time with them,
00:18:16.52\00:18:19.63
they'll have me a 100%.
00:18:19.66\00:18:21.83
And I'll really try to
focus, and try to draw them out
00:18:21.86\00:18:24.13
and get them to
really talk about it.
00:18:24.17\00:18:25.73
So that may help
in social situations
00:18:25.77\00:18:27.90
where a person is
rehearsing something
00:18:27.94\00:18:29.94
is to be honest with them.
00:18:29.97\00:18:31.64
You know, you seem to
need to talk about this
00:18:31.67\00:18:33.68
or want to talk
about this a lot.
00:18:33.71\00:18:35.71
And I want to be
able to help you,
00:18:35.74\00:18:37.81
but I have
limited time and energy,
00:18:37.85\00:18:39.48
can we do it this way?
00:18:39.51\00:18:40.85
And try to like literally
00:18:40.88\00:18:42.22
set up an appointment with them.
00:18:42.25\00:18:43.59
That's very good. Yeah.
00:18:43.62\00:18:44.95
But what do you do when people,
00:18:44.99\00:18:46.32
if you take it a step further,
00:18:46.35\00:18:47.69
if this is an
event that has happened.
00:18:47.72\00:18:50.49
Or a pattern of
events that have happened,
00:18:50.53\00:18:52.43
say 20 years back
00:18:52.46\00:18:54.16
and they still
continually rehearse those,
00:18:54.20\00:18:56.56
there's got to be a...
00:18:56.60\00:18:59.53
A point where they can let go.
00:18:59.57\00:19:00.90
And I know that
I'm not the only one.
00:19:00.94\00:19:02.27
I'm sure, you
know someone like that
00:19:02.30\00:19:03.64
and quite often as you said,
00:19:03.67\00:19:05.57
people begin to
avoid these people.
00:19:05.61\00:19:07.81
There are people within churches
00:19:07.84\00:19:09.81
as I go and minister.
00:19:09.84\00:19:11.18
There's people that
will come up and say,
00:19:11.21\00:19:12.85
well, don't get them
started, you know, we kind of,
00:19:12.88\00:19:16.02
we have to look the
other way when they're coming
00:19:16.05\00:19:18.29
because it's the same
old story all the time
00:19:18.32\00:19:20.99
for the last ten years.
00:19:21.02\00:19:22.36
Yeah.
00:19:22.39\00:19:23.73
How can you reach
someone like that,
00:19:23.76\00:19:25.49
if they won't go to a
professional counselor,
00:19:25.53\00:19:27.60
is there a way?
00:19:27.63\00:19:28.96
Well, have you...
00:19:29.00\00:19:30.33
My first question would
be have you encourage them
00:19:30.37\00:19:31.70
to see a professional and
have you tried to get them
00:19:31.73\00:19:34.60
lined up with a professional?
00:19:34.64\00:19:35.97
Have you been willing to
pay for the first two sessions?
00:19:36.00\00:19:38.61
Or help them
research their insurance
00:19:38.64\00:19:41.24
and see what it will
cover and what it won't?
00:19:41.28\00:19:43.48
So that they,
because it could be,
00:19:43.51\00:19:45.51
and you don't really
know this just having
00:19:45.55\00:19:48.28
sort of a random
encounter with them.
00:19:48.32\00:19:49.95
Maybe they do need to
process that more fully,
00:19:49.98\00:19:52.42
maybe they haven't
processed it successfully yet
00:19:52.45\00:19:55.79
and maybe a professional
will be able to help them
00:19:55.82\00:19:57.99
beyond that threshold.
00:19:58.03\00:19:59.93
So you don't know if
they're just being negative
00:19:59.96\00:20:02.53
or if they're really
damaged and they need help.
00:20:02.56\00:20:05.37
So to encourage them
to see a professional
00:20:05.40\00:20:07.37
and then help
facilitate that by offering,
00:20:07.40\00:20:10.41
you know, financial help.
00:20:10.44\00:20:11.77
I mean, we're
all going to be broke
00:20:11.81\00:20:13.14
and exhausted by the
end of this but, you know,
00:20:13.17\00:20:14.98
who are we if we
claim to be following Jesus
00:20:15.01\00:20:17.58
and we're not
willing to at least try
00:20:17.61\00:20:19.95
to help hurting people
and stretch ourselves out.
00:20:19.98\00:20:22.48
I mean, can you
imagine how many stories
00:20:22.52\00:20:23.85
he heard as he walked?
00:20:23.89\00:20:25.49
I mean, he walked
everywhere he went.
00:20:25.52\00:20:27.89
And so he often
had a walking partner.
00:20:27.92\00:20:29.99
I'm sure there were
a lot of conversations
00:20:30.03\00:20:31.96
and there was a lot
of processing going on,
00:20:31.99\00:20:33.96
even with the
apostles, you know, as they,
00:20:34.00\00:20:35.56
and Paul and his partners,
00:20:35.60\00:20:37.17
I'm sure there
was a lot of kind of
00:20:37.20\00:20:38.87
spontaneous counseling sessions.
00:20:38.90\00:20:40.60
I'm sure, you know there were.
00:20:40.64\00:20:42.00
Yes. I know how it goes.
00:20:42.04\00:20:44.21
But the one thing that
00:20:44.24\00:20:46.14
I'd like you to
address for just a second
00:20:46.17\00:20:48.38
is if someone is going to
seek a professional counselor,
00:20:48.41\00:20:52.11
can you give a guideline
to the type of counselor,
00:20:52.15\00:20:56.25
because you can send someone
to a secular counseling session
00:20:56.28\00:21:01.06
that they may end up in
worse condition than they were.
00:21:01.09\00:21:05.26
Yes, it depends
on the individual.
00:21:05.29\00:21:08.16
A lot of secular counselors
00:21:08.20\00:21:11.60
are now using
cognitive behavioral therapy,
00:21:11.63\00:21:14.10
which is simply a means of
controlling your thought life.
00:21:14.14\00:21:18.14
And it's
scientifically validated
00:21:18.17\00:21:19.94
and it can be very helpful,
00:21:19.97\00:21:21.78
even if that person isn't 100%
in line with you religiously,
00:21:21.81\00:21:24.95
they may be able to
help but of course ideally
00:21:24.98\00:21:27.92
we're going to want
someone who to really harmonizes
00:21:27.95\00:21:31.65
with a biblical worldview.
00:21:31.69\00:21:33.82
And so there are
different resources available,
00:21:33.86\00:21:37.43
there are Christian websites,
00:21:37.46\00:21:39.49
where you can find
a Christian counselor.
00:21:39.53\00:21:41.70
The American
Christian Counselor Association
00:21:41.73\00:21:45.13
has a website.
00:21:45.17\00:21:46.97
Find a counselor
link on that website.
00:21:47.00\00:21:49.80
The radio program New
Life Live has a website,
00:21:49.84\00:21:53.84
and you can find a
counselor on that website.
00:21:53.88\00:21:56.11
If you want a
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:21:56.14\00:21:57.48
you happen to be a
Seventh-day Adventist
00:21:57.51\00:21:58.85
and believe me, I know,
00:21:58.88\00:22:00.22
if you're a
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:22:00.25\00:22:01.58
most of the time you're going
to want an Adventist counselor
00:22:01.62\00:22:03.69
because there are
certain things about Adventism
00:22:03.72\00:22:05.69
that you don't
want to have to explain
00:22:05.72\00:22:07.32
and get your
counselor to understand.
00:22:07.36\00:22:08.86
So it's good to have someone
00:22:08.89\00:22:10.23
that really
understands you religiously.
00:22:10.26\00:22:12.09
You can go on the
North American division
00:22:12.13\00:22:13.80
family life website
00:22:13.83\00:22:15.90
and they have a
database of counselors.
00:22:15.93\00:22:17.70
Wonderful.
00:22:17.73\00:22:19.07
So those are some
just beginning points.
00:22:19.10\00:22:20.44
Okay.
00:22:20.47\00:22:21.80
So the North
American Division website...
00:22:21.84\00:22:24.34
The family life part of
the North American division
00:22:24.37\00:22:27.31
of Seventh-day Adventists
has a database of counselors.
00:22:27.34\00:22:30.81
I would recommend that
in addition to those things,
00:22:30.85\00:22:32.98
you try to find,
you try to find someone
00:22:33.01\00:22:37.05
who has had a good
experience with a counselor.
00:22:37.09\00:22:39.12
You get a referral of a
person that has a reputation
00:22:39.15\00:22:43.73
for helping people.
00:22:43.76\00:22:45.39
Okay, Jennifer you obviously,
00:22:45.43\00:22:47.23
I know, you know the
science, you studied that
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.70
but you obviously also have
a close relationship with Lord.
00:22:49.73\00:22:52.50
Tell us how much
God makes a difference
00:22:52.53\00:22:56.67
when you are
working with your clients?
00:22:56.71\00:22:59.51
I always pray in
sessions, I pray at the end
00:22:59.54\00:23:02.28
because I feel like, then I know
00:23:02.31\00:23:03.65
what we need to pray about.
00:23:03.68\00:23:05.21
Some counselors like
to pray in the beginning,
00:23:05.25\00:23:06.88
some clients like to pray
both at the beginning and end,
00:23:06.92\00:23:09.52
I like to give them that option.
00:23:09.55\00:23:11.52
But I always
pray with my clients.
00:23:11.55\00:23:12.89
I've had a few clients that
are not even believers per se
00:23:12.92\00:23:16.12
and I just tell them upfront,
00:23:16.16\00:23:17.59
I believe that the
success of this process
00:23:17.63\00:23:20.30
really
ultimately depends upon God
00:23:20.33\00:23:22.50
and so if it's
all right with you,
00:23:22.53\00:23:23.93
I will pray at the
end of the session.
00:23:23.97\00:23:25.97
And so far nobody has objected.
00:23:26.00\00:23:28.04
So there's always
prayer in sessions
00:23:28.07\00:23:30.71
and there's always, you know,
00:23:30.74\00:23:32.71
there's kind of a
fine line we walk.
00:23:32.74\00:23:34.81
We want to use methods
and we want to use tools,
00:23:34.84\00:23:38.08
I'm a big advocate of
tools and I kind of feel like
00:23:38.11\00:23:41.68
when I work with a client,
00:23:41.72\00:23:43.75
I'm like a carpenter
going into a situation
00:23:43.79\00:23:46.05
sizing up a repair
that needs to be made
00:23:46.09\00:23:47.99
and then pulling
out the right tools.
00:23:48.02\00:23:49.36
It's like I fit the
modality to the client,
00:23:49.39\00:23:52.33
not the client to the modality.
00:23:52.36\00:23:54.73
I don't say, I already
know what's wrong with you.
00:23:54.76\00:23:56.26
I don't even know
you and I can tell you,
00:23:56.30\00:23:57.73
I need to put you
through these paces.
00:23:57.77\00:23:59.73
I try to get to know the person
so that I can apply the tools
00:23:59.77\00:24:02.74
that I know to
their specific situations.
00:24:02.77\00:24:05.11
So I'm a big advocate
of tools in counseling.
00:24:05.14\00:24:08.08
However I have
to walk a fine line
00:24:08.11\00:24:09.74
because methods don't
ultimately fix people.
00:24:09.78\00:24:12.15
The Holy Spirit
coming into their lives
00:24:12.18\00:24:14.88
and transforming them
is the source of power.
00:24:14.92\00:24:16.92
Okay.
00:24:16.95\00:24:18.29
So do me a favor, we
have about three minutes left.
00:24:18.32\00:24:22.19
Please speak to
the mother, the father,
00:24:22.22\00:24:26.26
the husband or
wife who is out there.
00:24:26.29\00:24:28.46
Who sees that their loved one
has these particular symptoms
00:24:28.50\00:24:35.40
and the loved one may
not be recognizing it.
00:24:35.44\00:24:37.81
What can, not the person
00:24:37.84\00:24:40.48
who's suffering from
posttraumatic stress syndrome,
00:24:40.51\00:24:43.24
but what can a loved
one do to get their relative
00:24:43.28\00:24:48.08
or their loved
one on the right path?
00:24:48.12\00:24:49.78
Okay, Well,
00:24:49.82\00:24:52.35
it would help to be very honest
in a loving gracious kind way.
00:24:52.39\00:24:58.53
I notice that you're
having these symptoms
00:24:58.56\00:25:01.83
or I notice you
acting this particular way
00:25:01.86\00:25:04.33
in these given circumstances.
00:25:04.37\00:25:07.14
And ask the person,
have you ever thought that
00:25:07.17\00:25:09.57
maybe getting
some professional help
00:25:09.60\00:25:12.21
would help you get through this.
00:25:12.24\00:25:14.64
And try to get them
into a dialog about it.
00:25:14.68\00:25:17.05
Don't expect to convince
them in the first conversation
00:25:17.08\00:25:20.08
but whatever you do,
don't create a power struggle
00:25:20.12\00:25:22.15
where you're insisting on
them going and that creates
00:25:22.18\00:25:25.85
an additional
problem where they feel like,
00:25:25.89\00:25:27.26
they have to win the argument.
00:25:27.29\00:25:28.79
Open up a dialog with
them and then do some legwork,
00:25:28.82\00:25:31.46
try to find a good clinician
that you've heard good things
00:25:31.49\00:25:34.03
about that can work with them.
00:25:34.06\00:25:35.70
And you know something
that I'm learning the more
00:25:35.73\00:25:37.70
I work with
people who have suffered
00:25:37.73\00:25:41.97
sexual abuse or rape.
00:25:42.00\00:25:43.81
Often they are very
reluctant to share that
00:25:43.84\00:25:47.91
and their
families don't even realize
00:25:47.94\00:25:49.71
they're going through it.
00:25:49.74\00:25:51.38
So this is something
that if you have a loved one
00:25:51.41\00:25:55.02
who you suddenly
seen a change of behavior,
00:25:55.05\00:25:58.15
you know, you
need to watch and see
00:25:58.19\00:26:01.52
what's causing
that change of behavior.
00:26:01.56\00:26:03.79
Particularly, if you notice that
00:26:03.83\00:26:05.36
their anxiety is
triggered by certain thing,
00:26:05.39\00:26:07.33
they're having
anxiety attacks or perhaps
00:26:07.36\00:26:10.03
they, you know,
they're having nightmares,
00:26:10.07\00:26:11.67
they've mentioned
that on a consistent basis.
00:26:11.70\00:26:15.07
We need to have family systems
00:26:15.10\00:26:16.84
that aren't afraid
to upset the applecart,
00:26:16.87\00:26:19.47
where kids can admit
when something goes wrong
00:26:19.51\00:26:21.84
in their lives.
00:26:21.88\00:26:23.21
Don't traumatize them
again by having a family system,
00:26:23.24\00:26:27.12
where you're not allowed
to talk about negative things.
00:26:27.15\00:26:29.25
Create an openness
in your family system.
00:26:29.28\00:26:31.75
Amen. Amen. Yeah.
00:26:31.79\00:26:33.82
So I just think that
the most important thing
00:26:33.86\00:26:37.49
that we've learned today
is that God can change people.
00:26:37.53\00:26:42.36
And we're going to
be praying for Eugene.
00:26:42.40\00:26:44.43
That's somebody that, I'm
glad that God turned him around
00:26:44.47\00:26:48.00
but as you said,
he may be using him
00:26:48.04\00:26:50.14
as a missionary
in the prison system.
00:26:50.17\00:26:52.91
Yeah, I think he will.
00:26:52.94\00:26:54.28
I know he will, I know he will.
00:26:54.31\00:26:55.64
Yeah.
00:26:55.68\00:26:57.01
Well, we're very
sorry for his circumstances,
00:26:57.05\00:26:58.38
but we'll be praying for him.
00:26:58.41\00:26:59.75
Pray for him, please. You bet.
00:26:59.78\00:27:01.12
Thank you so much for...
00:27:01.15\00:27:02.48
It's been my
pleasure. For being here.
00:27:02.52\00:27:03.85
We just love it
when you're hearing,
00:27:03.89\00:27:05.22
you're going to come
back and we're going to do
00:27:05.25\00:27:06.59
a couple more
programs with Jennifer Jill.
00:27:06.62\00:27:10.19
Once again, if you
are suffering yourself
00:27:10.23\00:27:14.96
from flashbacks, from nightmares
00:27:15.00\00:27:18.40
or these anxiety
attacks, please seek out help.
00:27:18.43\00:27:22.77
Please talk to someone,
even if it's just beginning
00:27:22.80\00:27:25.24
by talking with your loved one.
00:27:25.27\00:27:26.61
And if you have a loved one
00:27:26.64\00:27:27.98
who is suffering
from these symptoms,
00:27:28.01\00:27:30.25
please be gentle with
them and try to encourage them
00:27:30.28\00:27:33.21
to get the help they need.
00:27:33.25\00:27:35.05
Now our prayer for you is that
00:27:35.08\00:27:36.72
the grace of our
Lord Jesus Christ,
00:27:36.75\00:27:39.09
the love of the Father,
00:27:39.12\00:27:40.46
and the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit
00:27:40.49\00:27:42.19
will be with you
today and always.
00:27:42.22\00:27:45.53