Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Randy J. Siebold
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000427
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00:01 Best selling business author Jim Collins says that
00:04 good is the enemy of great and that's the chief reason 00:08 why we have so little that becomes great. 00:11 Please stay tuned today. We are going to be 00:13 talking about how to reform our schools and take them 00:17 from being good schools to great schools. 00:45 Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn, and welcome to 00:47 Issues and Answers. We are so glad that 00:49 you are joining us. No matter where you're 00:50 tuning in from around the world. 00:52 And this is actually a kind of a final program. 00:56 We've invited a final program for Randall Siebold 00:59 for this series anyway. We've invited 01:02 Dr. Randall Siebold, Ph.D, Education and someone 01:07 who is truly, you are out to achieve reform and take 01:13 it back to biblical principles in our school systems. 01:16 Amen, absolutely, that's the call. I think that's 01:19 what God has called us to and I think we ought to 01:21 keep progressing forward so. 01:23 Well, I'm glad that he is kind of got you as one of the 01:26 chief forerunners here to say, let's get back 01:29 to what it should be. But I guess we could say 01:33 the chiefest of forerunners would have been 01:36 E.G. White, who wrote the book education and this is 01:39 something, less kind of people haven't seen 01:41 anything before of your series. 01:44 Randy, let's just talk about who you are and what 01:48 we've been talking about? You were a contractor, 01:55 a building contractor, I couldn't figure that word 01:56 out, you were a contractor who became very 02:00 interested in education. You got your doctoral degree. 02:07 Did your dissertation actually and what we're going 02:08 to be talking about today, this is going to be 02:11 pretty exciting stuff I believe. 02:12 This is your passion obviously, and 02:16 you have been, you did your doctoral studies 02:19 in public school. You have been, were a professor 02:23 at University at a Christian University. 02:26 You have been a principal for a Christian 02:30 Junior High School, and now you are 02:33 the, tell me what you are? 02:35 Vice-President of Education for Weimar Center 02:38 for Health and Education. And that's in Weimar, 02:41 California. Weimar, California. 02:42 Northern California. I am now a California guy, I guess. 02:45 And actually you're covering quite, tell us the great range 02:48 that you're covering in your, Well, we have elementary 02:51 school, a secondary school, and a small college 02:54 on campus and so we have all of those great ranges 02:57 in our schools on campus. 02:59 And that must be fascinating. 03:00 It's wonderful. Randy, we've been talking 03:03 about the problem with the school system that was 03:07 set up during an information, excuse me, set up 03:10 during an industrial age and now isn't really 03:14 fitting the information age. But we've also been talking 03:19 about other than just learning styles and 03:23 what is good that E. G. White wrote in 03:27 the book Education, that there are three basic 03:29 principles that we need to make sure that Christian 03:32 education has. No.1, it needs to be holistic, training the 03:35 whole person. No.2, that it should be life long 03:39 education. We don't just go to school for 12 years 03:42 and quit. But No.3, is that education should be, 03:48 the goal of education is to make us service oriented 03:51 rather than self-oriented. Is that? 03:53 Umm, absolutely, and what I like to do is 03:55 tag on to a comma. You said just just a bit ago this 03:59 idea of moving into the information age. 04:00 Yes. Now this is, this is very crucial 04:03 I think for any Christian. And that is 04:07 as we look around and my familiarity is with 04:12 education in the United States. 04:14 Yes. And here's what I'll say 04:15 I am absolutely convinced. Education, public education 04:20 will go through radical changes in the next 04:24 few upcoming years, and I'll tell you why I think 04:27 that's inevitable. School change and school 04:33 reform has been talked about for long times 04:36 since as we've covered in previous, you know, the 04:38 committee of ten set this standardized 04:41 curriculum and we've by enlarge been following 04:44 that pretty regularly, that was set up 04:47 with an industrial age mindset and meeting 04:50 the needs of an industrial age. We've people from all 04:54 walks of life critiquing the system the way 04:57 we do it and saying we have to change and 05:01 there has been people before saying that. 05:03 There has been this renewed commitment to reform 05:07 making changes and now we are at the dawn of a new age. 05:12 Okay. While the industrial age 05:15 was going on, school change was very difficult 05:17 to make happen because they still had the 05:19 same needs. And so they couldn't find that gear 05:25 to really turn education and make it happen 05:27 differently, but now we are clearly in the 05:31 information age. I received an email 05:32 recently that informs me of that interesting, just in case 05:35 I wasn't aware. We are in the information age, 05:39 so now with all of these information or knowledge 05:44 workers needed. Yes. 05:46 That we need a new type of system that is not me 05:50 arguing it. This is arguing it from the perspective 05:53 of a public educator. We must change the way 05:57 that we are doing things. 05:59 And here's where it becomes really crucial 06:00 for a Christian. If we don't make changes now 06:04 based on what God wants us to do. 06:08 What will we then do? 06:09 We will probably end up, whatever, whatever, being 06:11 force fed, yes, just like that we've intended. 06:14 Yeah, and then if public schools change, we will 06:18 change to be like the public schools. 06:19 Alright, since we've mentioned committee 06:22 of ten a couple of times, this was a back 06:25 in the 18 or 1800. 06:28 1890s. 1890s, okay. 06:30 And it was ten people from educational institutions 06:33 the chief men of the, colleges and prestigious 06:38 high schools came together. Their high schools were 06:42 teaching all from manual labor to the classics 06:46 to content oriented to memory only, just 06:49 all kinds of different things. 06:50 And the colleges were interested in getting some 06:53 standardized approach to what was happening out of 06:55 high school and interestingly enough, 06:59 take a guess at how long they said high school 07:02 should last? How many years? 07:04 I have no idea. Four years. 07:06 Oh! Really, so that's where 07:09 I mean nothing is changed at this point. 07:11 And take a guess at how long they said 07:14 elementary school should last. 07:16 Six years. Eight years. 07:17 Oh! Well, okay. 1 through 8. 07:20 Right not middle school. Not middle school. 07:21 Yeah. Okay. 07:22 Yeah, yeah. So everything has, 07:24 Yeah. nothing has changed, 07:26 well, how long does it take? 07:27 Well, there has been lots of changes not in that 07:28 basic formation, right, right. 07:30 But how long does it take to actually reform a school, 07:35 I mean if someone has a compelling vision 07:37 as you have, to see reform and I know you are even 07:41 trying institute reform at Weimar. 07:45 How long does it actually take 07:47 to put these things into place? 07:49 Well, as I did study, if you have a group that is 07:54 interested in coming together to really study 07:58 and change a school, the best guess that I could 08:03 give is 6 to 24 months. Okay. 08:06 Now 6 is. That sounds really.. 08:09 High speed, high speed That's great... 08:12 I would say, that's unbelievable. 08:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's if they're very focus 08:15 and two things that are very critical for the 08:21 change to happen and I visited a college once 08:27 and we visited them because they had just gone through 08:31 a very drastic reform of their school. 08:35 They went through this and redesigned their school. 08:39 So what we did we went in there and said 08:41 Well how did you do this. The president came out 08:43 and he talked with us. He said, there are two 08:46 things that are needed for this to happen. 08:50 No.1, either and I would say and or, 08:53 a compelling vision or a burning platform. 08:58 Another words, if things are going to go sour 09:01 they are gonna close the school. 09:03 Something is going to happen 09:05 that is a perfect time for change to happen. 09:09 Well, there are good schools out there, 09:12 I mean we are not saying that considering that 09:16 they're all still operating under the same system 09:18 I don't mean to speak with a fork tongue here, 09:21 but there are schools that are doing good jobs of 09:25 Yeah. Bringing these children up 09:27 and teaching them. So, if there is good schools 09:31 already then, what then? 09:34 Well. I mean if they are not getting 09:35 ready to be closed down. Why do people want 09:39 to change or how do we get, reach them? 09:41 Well, I think first what we do is, we do 09:43 a comparison, I mean if we're talking about a local school. 09:46 We do a comparison we say, how is my school stack up, 09:50 okay, Which goes back to that 09:51 first question you brought up, you know, 09:53 where these principles, so we take a look in the 09:55 book education, we've mentioned. 09:58 Take a look at the first paragraph and 10:00 we see three principles showing up. 10:02 The principle of a whole person learning, 10:07 so mind, body, spirit and she mentions also 10:09 the word harmonious, so harmonious development 10:13 of the mind and the body, the spirits, they're all 10:14 doing it together, then life long, 10:18 so this approach to learning, 10:20 So, look at your school and say, is my school fostering 10:24 a lifelong approach to learning or is the learning 10:27 categorized into just classes and its just 10:31 for grades. If it's just for grades and it's primarily 10:34 about learning Maths, Science, English 10:36 getting the check list done then it's not designed 10:39 to run lifelong learning. It's not including 10:42 families and doing exercises that you would love 10:46 to do yourself and have your parents 10:48 come in and they are joining in the learning process. 10:52 There are schools out there that are blending those 10:55 things together to make it lifelong learning. 10:59 And in service oriented. Yes, service oriented 11:02 learning. Another great question to look at 11:04 your local school and say, is it service oriented. Now 11:09 So, in other words, are you training the youth 11:12 to become service oriented rather than to 11:15 be self focused. Sure. 11:17 That's the point. Absolutely and 11:20 additionally are you actually using services 11:23 apart of the way to train them to be others oriented 11:26 Umh! That's good. So, is your school involved 11:29 in service oriented activities. 11:32 Some schools call these Bible labs. 11:34 So, you have Bible class where you study the Bible 11:36 and then you have the lab. 11:38 Where you go? Where you apply it, right. 11:40 And that's for the real learning class. 11:42 Oh! Yeah. I mean doesn't the Lord asked us that 11:43 the sheep and the goats you know, 11:45 feed me, take care of me. Right. 11:47 Cloth me. Let's look at that tease 11:50 in each part of Jim Collins' quote, but let's look at 11:55 that right now. The four quote because 11:57 I think this is a powerful quote from this 11:58 Business Selling Author. When I first read this 12:03 quote here, this absolutely amazed me. 12:06 It is good to great. Is the name of the book 12:10 that it comes from, think about this, 12:13 Good is the enemy of great. And in fact good in your 12:21 view of where I am now that means there is no 12:25 compelling vision to pull me further. 12:27 And you know I had someone recently, 12:30 well several years ago. When I was beginning, 12:34 or I was in full time ministry and still 12:37 early on and I had someone tell me, Shelly because 12:41 I was saying, all these things keep coming at me 12:43 I don't what to do and he said, God has called you 12:46 for a purpose and he said, but sometimes 12:49 the devil likes to put good things 12:51 around you to do keep you from answering 12:53 the call to God that you're so busy 12:55 doing the good that you never do the great. 12:58 And there is a lot of truth in that 13:00 and so schools who are involved and they know 13:04 that they've got a good product. 13:06 They shouldn't become complacent. 13:09 They should look at what you're talking about 13:10 and measure themselves and say are we doing 13:14 things this way because good, our good could 13:18 be the enemy of a greater system. 13:21 Yeah, yeah. The quote continues that 13:22 we could have that. That is just 13:24 this is amazing, look at this 13:26 And that is one of the key reasons why we have so 13:31 little that becomes great. We don't have great 13:34 schools, principally because we have good schools. 13:36 We don't have great government, principally 13:39 because we have good government. 13:41 I don't think we want to get out of tangent there. 13:44 A few people attaining great lives, in large part 13:47 because it's just so easy 13:49 to settle for the good life. 13:51 Yeah. Then he moves to 13:53 what his basic premises for the book 13:55 and that's about business. The vast majority of 13:59 companies never become great, precisely because 14:02 the vast majority become quite good and 14:07 that is the main problem. Now when I read that 14:10 I just tell you, just briefly about the book. 14:14 The book is about a research study that 14:18 took companies who had consistently strong stock 14:23 values and then all of a sudden somewhere 14:26 they just shot up, okay. so their value and their 14:30 stock value shoot up, so then they took 14:32 comparison companies with similar size, 14:35 similar time frames, similar stock values 14:37 and then they, but they didn't have that. 14:40 They just stayed. They didn't shoot up 14:42 right. So then they called these the good companies. 14:45 These are good companies. And then they called these 14:48 the great companies 14:49 and then and interestingly enough, this is what 14:52 I think really makes this research study 14:56 so compelling is number one, they were really searching 15:00 for truth. They were just saying what is really 15:03 going on and second of all, they looked for the 15:07 differences between these two companies, 15:09 so they studied that time period before, during, 15:12 and after that trajectory and when they study 15:19 that they reported the differences. 15:21 And his conclusion after this. 15:25 The summary of all of this wrapping it into a single 15:28 statement was that there was these good 15:32 companies and in fact, it was because 15:34 they were good they had to fight 15:36 that idea that they were good to become great. 15:41 They had to challenge that idea that we are not 15:44 as good as we can be To really achieve where 15:49 they really wanted to be. 15:50 One of my pet peeves is to hear somebody when 15:55 they are doing a job and may be it's not been done 15:57 to the highest of standards, and they'll say well, 16:01 it's good enough and you think, 'oh, but it 16:04 can be done better, let's do it better. 16:05 It's worth doing. It's worth doing. 16:07 Well. That's right 16:08 That one is something that was hammered into me. 16:11 Now when we think about Adventist schools. 16:15 Uh-uh! How are Adventist schools 16:19 doing as Christian schools Is it good? 16:23 It is very good. I think we have very 16:26 good reports coming out of Adventist education. 16:30 There is, I would say and of course, we know, 16:35 we talk about Adventist schools in general 16:37 and we can talk about Adventist schools 16:40 individually. So there is a lots of variants, 16:42 but we've done quite a bit of research 16:45 on Adventist education. There has been a several 16:47 studies done on the spiritual development and that's 16:51 been good. Some of the reports back, 16:54 coming back most recently have been done from a study 16:58 called cognitive genesis and it's actually a 17:01 cognitivegenesis.org. On the web you can download 17:05 information to take a look at how Adventist schools 17:08 are doing in general. What they've done 17:10 is they've taken look at this and their focus 17:14 was on the academic development. 17:18 Realizing that spiritual was the purpose, this is 17:20 why we are doing it, so that's those first 17:22 studies were done that with that focus. 17:26 Now the focus for this set of years in this study 17:31 is for academy development and some really, 17:35 I think quite profound results and we have 17:39 some slides here to. Good. 17:40 give the viewers summary of this. 17:46 Now here it is, Adventist Education, 17:48 they are found to be above average achievement, 17:51 they gave them an achievement test. 17:54 Above average in ability, they gave them a second 17:56 test to test for ability. Their cognitive abilities, 18:02 that which didn't ask questions about what they 18:05 knew. Above prediction and achievement, 18:08 now what that is, is they took students 18:12 particular ability and set well given that ability 18:15 we would expect them to achieve at this level 18:18 and what they did was they achieved 18:20 above that level. Umm. 18:22 Okay. So, in that prediction coming back to the slide. 18:27 Above average and prediction in all subjects 18:31 excellent. in all grades, above 18:35 average for all school sizes and above prediction 18:40 at all abilities and this last one is amazing. 18:42 We have some more coming yearly gains in achievement 18:45 Yearly gains in ability. Yearly gains in achievement 18:48 at given abilities. Now let's go to this, 18:51 we have one more slide here to show a chart. 18:53 I will show that one. This one shows the 18:57 new students, what it does it shows eighth 19:00 grade students. This is they took eighth 19:03 graders and they gave them the ability test 19:05 and the achievement test. Those new students who 19:09 were eighth graders for the first time in the 19:11 Seventh Day Adventist school scored right at the area 19:15 where you would expect them right around the 19:17 50th percentile. Okay. 19:18 Okay. Those that have been in an Adventist School 19:23 for one or two years, so you see what this 19:26 is starting to show now. Yes, yes. 19:27 They are scoring just at or above. 19:31 the 50th percentile. Those there have been 19:33 either they all eighth graders. 19:36 but those eight graders that have been in 19:38 Adventist School for three to five years 19:40 are now scoring between 50 and 65 in that 19:44 and those who have been spent all of their seven 19:48 years first grade through eighth grade. 19:50 Okay, coming to eighth grade because the test 19:53 is taken at the beginning of the eighth grade year 19:56 They are scoring up around the 65th percentile. 19:59 That's a significant difference. 20:01 And notice this is, this chart shows 20:03 achievement as well as abilities. 20:05 Right. That is significant. But now, you know, then 20:11 this makes the question. We just got through 20:14 saying if you're good, that could be dangerous 20:18 to becoming great, I mean, those scores seem 20:20 pretty great, but are we and I think the answer 20:26 is obvious that we've must not quite be there. 20:29 You wouldn't have this compelling, derived 20:32 to see reform. Are we meeting the objectives 20:37 of what your favorite books on education says. 20:44 We keep coming back to that. 20:45 Well, I go back, I'll tell you honestly. 20:50 I have a Ph.D. in Education. 20:51 I have studied this book. And the book being 20:54 Education by E.G. White. That's right, 20:56 the book Education. I've studied scripture looking 20:59 for Lord what do you want me to know about 21:03 how we need to educate. Here's what I understand 21:07 we have and I'll just say in my language, 21:11 we have been duped by society into thinking 21:15 what it means to be educated and we equate 21:18 that in the schooling. And then once schooling 21:21 is over we are done, I don't have to learn 21:24 anymore and even for our children we have this 21:28 idea that academics it means to be 21:32 successfully educated. Alright. 21:35 and it's just not true, that's not if you read 21:38 the Bible that's not the picture that comes out 21:40 of the Bible. I mean when I came 21:43 to the Bible I said, Lord I really want to know 21:47 you and I am not sure the Bible is the thing 21:49 and so I looked at evidence, and I looked at evidence 21:52 and then I came to believe, the Bible is the 21:56 word of God. Amen. 21:57 And then when I did that now I have to look 22:00 at the Bible differently. All the sudden I can't 22:04 look at it the same way, I have made a decision 22:07 the Bible is the word of God. 22:09 Once I make that decision now I don't read 22:13 it the same anymore. Now, instead of reading 22:16 preaching, I need teaching, I now come and I study 22:21 the word to say Lord teach me. 22:23 Amen, and he will it's a special 22:25 it's the whole different experience than going 22:29 Is the Bible real? Is it real God's word? 22:31 Because that a bit of skepticism, which 22:33 I think is what we need to be convinced that 22:36 the Bible is God's word to his people. 22:38 Yes. And then once we get convicted 22:41 about that then our study of the Bible changes 22:43 and we are looking for God. 22:45 What is good education? What is good learning? 22:50 And we find that education and redemption 22:53 are one. That's the process that's what God is 22:56 talking about. Helping us to become 22:59 recreated into his image. 23:00 And he desires for us Emphasis 3:16 says, 23:03 more than we could ever think or imagine. 23:08 So, if God then is taking us and why don't 23:13 can you quote or do you have that slide 23:16 on the first paragraph in the book Education 23:18 because I wanted to. Well, you want it, yeah, 23:20 we have the slide. Let's look at that, Our ideas of 23:25 of education take too narrow a view and too low a range. 23:28 Actually, I think that's may be slightly 23:29 miss quoted, I don't think view is in there, but 23:32 I am sorry that's my fault. There is a need 23:35 of a broader scope, a higher aim. 23:37 In other words, our ideas are too narrow 23:39 and too low. So, and what we are doing 23:45 at least we know we are doing a good job 23:46 in the spiritual development. 23:49 We are doing obviously a good job as far as 23:53 academic achievement, but God wants more. 23:59 Yeah, I think I don't want good. I don't want great. 24:04 I want God. That's good. 24:06 That's the real, that's I mean, you know, 24:09 we like good, we like great. 24:10 We are happy for folks on earth. 24:12 So say I'm the good writer, that's good. 24:13 No, no, that's great. That's God. 24:14 That's what we're looking for. Yeah. I mean 24:17 we've just got be, we need to be looking at our schools 24:21 and saying does it meet what God says. 24:23 Who. That's, that's 24:27 There is a thesis right there. 24:28 That's it, that's it. We really do. 24:30 We need to study it, and the best that 24:33 we've said this before. I don't want to be 24:34 the broken record, you know, what I am going to say. 24:36 Yes. The book Education to me 24:38 is the best study on biblical education 24:42 that I've ever found. So we are looking for 24:44 God's ideal, and I think you have a slide 24:48 that you wanted to show something. 24:50 So, yes. Here is one way to look at this. 24:52 This is the looking at the real versus the ideal 24:56 and this is what you can do this on your own. 25:00 You can do this in committees, teachers 25:03 can come together to do this 25:04 what they want to do. Is they want to identify 25:06 the real. What's really going in on our school. 25:08 What's happening now? And then what is the idea? 25:13 What does that look like I would say you find 25:16 that through scripture, right, 25:18 Yes, yes, through through reading and 25:20 studying and saying God what do you want 25:23 your schools to look like and then between those two 25:27 we saw an arrow called action steps and helping us 25:32 to move from where we are now, 25:34 to where we need to be. 25:36 So what are these actions steps? Well, can you give 25:40 us a simple overview of the process? 25:41 Absolutely, one Dr. Paul Bradley who is now with 25:47 the general conference of Seventh-Day Adventists 25:50 working in the department of the assessment 25:51 and program effectiveness. I think absolutely 25:55 a brilliant educator. He has come up with a 25:58 process and it's simple, it's easy to remember 26:02 and we'll show a slide, I'll walk you 26:05 through it, okay. Alright. 26:06 We are going to start clock wise and this goes 26:09 the way reality goes, purpose, 26:11 so if you want to change, help make a change, 26:14 identify know your purpose. Why do you exist 26:17 then you take a look at the real idea, 26:20 you start making plans. Put those plans 26:23 into practice and then your practice produces 26:27 a product and that product helps you 26:31 accomplish your purpose. So this, you could draw 26:35 an arrow clock wise around this. 26:37 You see that. Right. 26:38 Alright. Now I am going to push you just 26:41 a little bit. You're alright. 26:42 You're ready. Okay, Yes. 26:43 Hold on your seat here. Okay. 26:44 Okay. We are going to go back to that slide, 26:46 but I'm going to show you a process that 26:49 say use that same slide to show you around 26:52 backwards. Alright. 26:53 Okay. And what happens backwards. 26:55 We take a look at plans, okay. 26:58 How do you plan? How do you plan? 27:00 Well, what you do? Is your plan backwards? 27:03 You start with the purpose and you say what 27:06 products help us, accomplish that purpose 27:09 and then you design the practice of your school, 27:13 so that it accomplishes the product and 27:16 it will thus accomplish the purpose and then 27:19 you make plans to do that. See actually walk backwards, 27:21 it's called Backwards Design. 27:22 Steven Gabbe calls it starting with the end in 27:27 mind. Yes. So those are some rough ideas. 27:29 There is a whole process that we use and. 27:33 Randy, I know that We are running out of time 27:36 I can't believe it but, thank you 27:40 so much for being here and I know I've certainly 27:41 learned some things and I hope that you will some day 27:44 come back and see us again. 27:45 I'll be happy to, thanks. 27:47 Thank you. And for those of you at home 27:48 I hope that this is something that 27:50 if whether you are an educator or a parent, 27:53 grandparent that you will really give this some 27:55 thought and pray about it and seek God's ideal 27:58 for teaching our children. 28:00 Now, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, 28:02 the love of the Father and the fellowship 28:04 of the Holy Spirit be with you always. Thank you. |
Revised 2014-12-17