Perhaps you've heard
the name John Taylor Gatto.
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He was the New York City and New
York State teacher of the year.
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He had something very
interesting to say and I want
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to read this statement. He said,
Slowly I began to realize that
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the bells and the confinement,
the crazy sequences, the age
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segregation, the lack of privacy
the constant surveillance and
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all the rest of the national
curriculum of schooling were
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designed exactly as if someone
had set out to prevent children
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from learning how to think and
act, to coax them into addiction
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and dependent behavior.
What is this wonderful teacher
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speaking of? Well today we're
going to be taking a look at the
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problem with
education. Please stay tuned.
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Music being played.
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Hi, I'm Shelley Quinn and we
are so glad that you could join
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us today. Let me introduce right
away our very special guest who
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is Dr. Randy Siebold. He is
the Vice President of Education
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for the Weimar Center of Health
and Education. That's a long
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title. That's a lot to
say. It is a lot to say.
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Very good to be here. Randy
we're so glad that you are here.
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Now let's let our audience get
to know you a little bit better.
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Your Ph.D. is in what area?
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Well, it's in the field
of education, instructional
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systems technology.
It's from Indiana University.
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Okay, that's interesting.
We won't even go into what that
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means. But now how did you
become interested in education
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because I personally know you
and know that you made a switch
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from being a building contractor
and you went into education.
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How did you get
led in that direction?
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Well, I actually had just
completed my masters in art and
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started teaching photography
at the college level and just
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started doing some reading
because I wanted to teach well
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and I found a book
called Education by Ellen White.
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I started reading it and it
really impacted me. At the same
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time our children grew up and
we started watching them grow,
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doing a little home schooling.
So I really started digging into
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education. So that's
really what turned it for me.
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Then before you went to Weimar
give us a little fast track of
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what you've done over the
last 20 years as an educator.
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Well, most of that was teaching
at Andrews University as a
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professor and I enjoyed that
experience a lot. After my Ph.D.
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which was completed in the
middle of that I really sensed a
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need for helping education to
change. My Ph.D. really helped
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me think about that.
About educational reform?
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Yes, yes, thank you. So
with this building passion about
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education and how do we do it
differently and how do we make
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it really built around the way
people learn, I took a position
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as a principle of a high
school, moving from the college
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professor to high school
principle and we went into sort
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of a more radical reform because
of the situation of the school
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and really just enjoyed the
education process. I went on to
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also be a superintendent of
education for a few years before
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I picked up the
position at Weimar.
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Yes. Well I know that I met some
of your students. When I first
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met you, you had come down with
a group of students and talked
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with each one of them
individually and they all really
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had developed a very close
relationship with you and had a
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deep admiration for you and some
of the things that you had done.
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Well, we're glad you're here and
actually we did a live together,
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you and I and Dr. Nedley and
this topic was just touched on,
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so we wanted you to come back
and talk to us about education.
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It seems that if you're watching
the national news of late, and
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it's been more of late, it seems
over the last number of years
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people are talking about
educational reform, but some of
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it seems like they are short
term solutions rather than long
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term solutions. What do you see
is the greatest problem and how
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do we even begin
to look at fixing it?
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Well the problem with education
from a public school and
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national scope is debated
in lots of different arenas.
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The difficulty with education is
it's such a long term fix. You
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don't just fix something and see
immediate results. It's not a
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pill. In a health scene, it's
less like a pill and more like
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a lifestyle change. That's the
difficulty of trying to address
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education. But now
I've heard you speak
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when you were here before
you talked about some of the
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problems particularly in the
United States and I would say
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probably in most industrialized
nations, are that there is kind
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of a system that's in place and
it's a cookie cutter, almost a
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factory model type
system. Explain to us what that
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terminology means
and how does that fit?
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Yes, well, most of the people
who have been in public schools
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and most people have, they're
dealing with an education that
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takes... Think of it this way;
what I call the curriculum cloud
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what you're going to teach. So
it's not really very clear and
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crystal, it's sort of fluffy.
What are we really teaching?
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Do you know what I'm saying?
Okay so there's this fluffy
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cloud and we take it up and
we divide it up into discrete
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segments of math and science
and English and so we have one
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person who deals with math, one
person deals with science, so
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they can do their job well.
I mean, that's the theory, that
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they'll teach each person well.
So it takes and it divides up
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this educational experience into
components rather than seeing
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the development of a child
as a whole, as a whole piece, it
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primarily focuses on these
components rather than the child
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as a whole. But
explain that a little bit
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more because obviously... I'll
just tell a quick experience I
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had when I was in the 8th grade
and we moved several times in
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that school year. I ended up
in this geometry class and the
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professor, the teacher I should
say, was a basketball coach and
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he knew less about geometry than
I did and I'm kind of coming in,
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I hadn't learned all the reasons
that they had to memorize.
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Isn't there a benefit to having
a teacher who is specializing in
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an area or what is the problem
of compartmentalizing our
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education? Well we
can look at it this way.
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If you think of education purely
as academic studies, that works
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really well. If you're dealing
with math and you want to teach
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math really well, that works
really well. But we sometimes
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equate education with school
and education is a lifelong
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experience. It's not something
that is from a six-year-old to
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an 18-year-old and we box it in
and the students get to the spot
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where they can't wait till they
don't have to learn anymore.
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They've mistaken learning
for school and because they are
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frustrated with school and
pieces of what school's about
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and they think they
don't like to learn.
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Okay, I'm going to do this.
Let's bring out John Taylor
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Gatto's quote. I want to dissect
this quote that I started the
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program with because John Taylor
Gatto is the teacher of the year
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for New York City and New York
State as a whole and he has the
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most interesting comments. Let's
look at this and you can read it
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to us. It's on the screen here.
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Slowly I began to realize that
the bells, the confinement, the
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crazy sequences, the
age segregation, the lack of
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privacy, the constant
surveillance and all the rest
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of the national school
curriculum were designed exactly
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as if someone had set out to
prevent children from learning
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how to think and act, to
coax them into addiction and
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dependent behavior. The
fascinating thing about this
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is if you think about bells,
just for instance... What we
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know about the learning process
is it's very intuitive, I mean,
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children, young children, know
how to learn. They grow and they
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learn more, walking and running
and doing different tasks and
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that growth process isn't
compartmentalized and learning
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is difficult when
it's regulated by bells.
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You mean like the school bell
when it's ding-a-ling-a-ling
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and the period's up.
Think about this: You're in math
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class and you're just getting
a concept and the bell rings and
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it's time to stop learning math;
now it's time to start going
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down the hall and learn English.
There's good pieces that come
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with education system, there's
good things that are happening
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in it. We have very dedicated
teachers and lives are being
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changed in our current system.
It's not all bad. There are
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things we could do better.
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So when you think about our
school system and I think as
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I read what John Taylor Gatto
was saying, following along on
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that quote, it seems that he
is essentially saying we are not
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really developing critical
thinkers, problem solvers,
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we're just developing kids who
can learn certain formulas to
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take a math test, for example,
but not maybe how to apply
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algebra. He's basically saying
the way this school system
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itself, our system of education,
has been set up so that we
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we are actually thwarting
the effort of the natural
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intuitive ability of a child
to learn. Is that what you're
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saying? Well, I
think what John is
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saying is he senses that
the whole education process is
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centered around the content,
not centered around the child.
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There's a huge difference there.
If we were to take the whole
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child and then let's say divide
that up into mental, physical
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and spiritual for example, okay?
Then we take the mental and we
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divide the mental up
into components like creative
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thinking, problem solving and
then one component of the mental
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is memory, when in fact we spend
a lot of time enhancing and
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testing, some students would
say torturing, the memory and we
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have a quote on that as well.
Let's bring a slide up here
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on that. This is from this book
that I told you about, Education
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For ages education has had to
do chiefly with the memory. This
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faculty has been taxed to the
utmost while the other mental
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powers have not been
correspondingly developed.
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That's what we're talking about.
Rather than doing the whole
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mental thing, we're
doing just that one component.
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So would this be fair to
say that, for example, memory...
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I loved math. J.D. hated algebra
but he's so intelligent. I told
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him, Honey, if you had
understood how it applied you
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would have liked it, I think.
Are you saying that what we
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do is that we teach children
theory and we don't let it
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become a practical problem-
solving or have any application
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to their life?
Well, I'll tell you what,
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honestly teachers are
trying to do that more and more.
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You know, as we go in teacher
education programs teachers
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going for advanced degrees,
teachers in their pre-service
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programs in college, that's what
they're trying to do. What's
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happening is I think one of the
big problems is we have a system
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that's set up that teacher's
have to fight to do that. It
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doesn't just naturally occur
within that class period. You're
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building up the motivation and
trying to build something up and
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then it goes away because
the class period is ended. That
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quote that we read continues
on. I want to get back to that.
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Because in this
quote she talks about this:
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Students have spent their
time... Now remember she's
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talking about this memorization
... Students have spent their
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time in laboriously crowding the
mind with knowledge very little
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of which could be utilized.
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Look at this,
and this is amazing:
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The mind thus burdened with
that which it cannot digest and
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assimilate is weakened... so
we're talking about this idea of
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making sure that we're dealing
with things that strengthen the
00:14:08.33\00:14:12.22
mind, okay let me continue...
it becomes incapable of vigorous
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self-reliant effort... and here
is the amazing thing to me...
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and is content... now this
is the mind... is content to
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depend on the judgment
and perception of others.
00:14:26.92\00:14:29.61
So what she's saying here is
when we focus primarily on the
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memory this is causing problems
with the way the mind works.
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Focusing purely on the memory
with that which it can't use
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weakens the mind.
You're singing my tune here
00:14:43.14\00:14:49.82
because even that not only is in
education in school but I would
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say education in the Bible or if
you want to call it religion is
00:14:55.32\00:14:59.78
that I believe I believe when
we just call texts memory texts,
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and it's something just devoted
to memory and it's not made
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applicable to our life it
doesn't do us any benefit. All
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it does is begin to overload up
here and pretty soon people...
00:15:12.52\00:15:15.94
you know, some people can quote
some scriptures that they've
00:15:15.97\00:15:18.90
heard from of old, but basically
we're saying the same thing.
00:15:18.93\00:15:22.84
As we get older we say that
we've forgotten more than we've
00:15:22.87\00:15:26.76
every learned. But basically
that is what one of your
00:15:26.79\00:15:32.53
premises is, not yours, but in
general, the reform that needs
00:15:32.56\00:15:37.00
to be made in school is to
get away from just a straight
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memorization, teach children
to be problem solvers, critical
00:15:42.48\00:15:46.38
thinkers, teach
them to become learners.
00:15:46.41\00:15:50.75
If you think about the 21st
century, this new context that
00:15:50.78\00:15:55.02
we have, MSNBC had an article
written on their website and I
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was reading through it. It
talked about like the future of
00:16:00.77\00:16:03.76
what learners need to have.
It was fascinating because...
00:16:03.79\00:16:07.70
Let's explain what a learner
is first because I use that
00:16:07.73\00:16:11.95
terminology and I may have left
somebody. You define: What is
00:16:11.98\00:16:15.97
the difference between the
average student and one who is
00:16:16.00\00:16:19.93
a real "learner. " Well,
let's take a look at great
00:16:19.96\00:16:24.44
learners, children, young
children. If there was one
00:16:24.47\00:16:31.31
standing here it would be just
this little boy, just his finger
00:16:31.34\00:16:34.42
would be in here. He'd be all
over the place, just looking.
00:16:34.45\00:16:37.79
He's very inquisitive. Here's
my frustration. I don't like
00:16:37.82\00:16:46.38
critiquing schools, because
there are good people that work
00:16:46.41\00:16:50.16
in those schools and they do
a great work every day. I think
00:16:50.19\00:16:56.74
the bigger problem is in the
structure, the overall structure
00:16:56.77\00:16:59.71
the way we have organized it.
You're talking about the system.
00:16:59.74\00:17:01.84
I don't want to mislead anybody
and have anyone think that I
00:17:01.87\00:17:07.12
don't like schools and I don't
like teachers. I do. I've had
00:17:07.15\00:17:11.05
amazing experiences, but I also
know that there are difficulties
00:17:11.08\00:17:15.36
with it. So this learner idea
is someone who is just naturally
00:17:15.39\00:17:21.50
inquisitive, wants to know, and,
in fact, needs to know, can't
00:17:21.53\00:17:26.71
not know. I just
had an epiphany, because
00:17:26.74\00:17:31.11
what you've said is we are born
basically to be learners and we
00:17:31.14\00:17:36.15
see this exhibited and
manifested by the behavior of
00:17:36.18\00:17:40.71
young children. Is it possible
that when we get to school and
00:17:40.74\00:17:46.80
we're put in these areas of
confinement and suddenly we're
00:17:46.83\00:17:52.18
taught to just memorize,
are we actually squelching that
00:17:52.21\00:17:56.53
intuitive ability to learn.
There's some really fascinating
00:17:56.56\00:18:01.05
people that have lectured on
this and research and theorists
00:18:01.08\00:18:05.63
are doing this. There's
an author that has a book out
00:18:05.66\00:18:10.94
called Punished by Rewards and
his point is saying that when we
00:18:10.97\00:18:17.61
reward people for good behavior
we actually are ending up to
00:18:17.64\00:18:23.17
demotivate them. It ends
up reducing their intrinsic
00:18:23.20\00:18:30.25
motivation because we
are rewarding their extrinsic
00:18:30.28\00:18:33.48
motivation. That
makes sense to me. That
00:18:33.51\00:18:36.75
makes perfect sense to me.
00:18:36.78\00:18:37.90
And so with that what happens
is creative thinking... so think
00:18:37.93\00:18:43.54
about this. Our schools, the way
they are designed we have right
00:18:43.58\00:18:49.16
answers and we've told the
teacher here's what we want
00:18:49.19\00:18:52.96
you to tell the students to
learn. So here's the content,
00:18:52.99\00:18:55.97
make sure the students know
the content; that's your job.
00:18:56.01\00:18:59.27
So there are right answers.
Here are the right answers, you
00:18:59.31\00:19:02.62
know them and so now you
teach those right answers to the
00:19:02.65\00:19:07.47
students. But then a student
goes out into life and there
00:19:07.50\00:19:12.06
aren't always right answers.
It's a bit frustrating because
00:19:12.09\00:19:16.57
well what should I do. How many
times have people landed in jobs
00:19:16.61\00:19:22.01
nowadays that there isn't a
clear job description. They walk
00:19:22.05\00:19:26.92
into the position and it's like
well what do I do? Well here's
00:19:26.96\00:19:31.36
your job, do that. And here's
the computer and go figure that
00:19:31.39\00:19:35.76
out. That's not part of
the content, the training,
00:19:35.79\00:19:39.83
that curriculum cloud.
00:19:39.87\00:19:41.73
Okay, so what is the purpose
of education then? And if you
00:19:41.77\00:19:47.07
will divide this. We see what we
believe the public schools feel
00:19:47.10\00:19:52.48
the purpose of education is and
what do you believe Christian
00:19:52.52\00:19:56.41
schools see as the
purpose of education.
00:19:56.44\00:19:59.60
Well they sort of go in
two different directions.
00:19:59.64\00:20:04.07
Take public education; basic
socialization giving students
00:20:04.11\00:20:09.41
the ability to socialize, make
friends, know their neighbors,
00:20:09.44\00:20:14.80
understand social skills and
things like that. Then learning
00:20:14.84\00:20:20.13
in knowledge and content skills,
having the content, all of these
00:20:20.17\00:20:26.87
subject areas that the teachers
are to teach and basic skill set
00:20:26.90\00:20:34.18
That's roughly framed. You know
there's discussion, but by and
00:20:34.22\00:20:41.02
large that's the skill set.
For Christian education what has
00:20:41.05\00:20:47.30
been impressed to me is that our
goal of Christian education is
00:20:47.34\00:20:52.51
to move much more into the image
of God, to have the image of God
00:20:52.54\00:20:57.24
recreated in man. So think about
it this way in the general men
00:20:57.28\00:21:02.92
and women, the general sense.
If God created man in his image,
00:21:02.96\00:21:08.57
right as we read in the
beginning of scripture in
00:21:08.60\00:21:11.28
Genesis and then Genesis 3
happened and Adam and Eve fell
00:21:11.31\00:21:18.10
from that; their image is marred
and so now we've been through
00:21:18.14\00:21:22.97
all of this degradation.
His goal to be educated is to be
00:21:23.01\00:21:28.90
recreated in that
image. That's the goal.
00:21:28.93\00:21:32.63
Now you're not saying though,
I won't say what you are saying,
00:21:32.67\00:21:37.59
are you saying that academic
achievement is not as important
00:21:37.63\00:21:41.97
for Christian schools as it
is for public or are you simply
00:21:42.01\00:21:46.09
saying that the focus is
different, that the priority is
00:21:46.13\00:21:50.92
on spiritual development, is
your top priority, I should say
00:21:50.95\00:21:55.71
and then academics
are equally as important?
00:21:55.74\00:21:59.06
Well, it's a component and it's
a component. Now there's a spot
00:21:59.09\00:22:04.69
in scripture where it says, you
know, they wondered about Jesus
00:22:04.72\00:22:10.28
having not had letters. He
did not have the rabbinical
00:22:10.31\00:22:14.26
education and so they wondered
how could he know scripture
00:22:14.30\00:22:19.90
without having the rabbinical
education. Jesus was certainly
00:22:19.94\00:22:25.83
very knowledgeable of content
of the day. That was clear. So I
00:22:25.87\00:22:30.93
think that seems clearly to be
a part of what God wants for us.
00:22:30.96\00:22:35.99
The problem is in Christian
education is when we make that
00:22:36.02\00:22:40.65
the paramount thing that we are
trying to make. So what we do
00:22:40.69\00:22:45.65
often in Adventist education
is we take our public school
00:22:45.68\00:22:51.09
counterpart academic realm,
we add a Bible class perhaps and
00:22:51.13\00:22:56.40
Christian teachers and then
we call that Christian education
00:22:56.44\00:23:01.22
and by and large that's most
of what we do with Christian
00:23:01.25\00:23:06.00
education. That's not
necessarily the ideal or God
00:23:06.03\00:23:09.64
would really have us as I read
what he's told us through his
00:23:09.68\00:23:15.44
prophet. So
basically it's a good system
00:23:15.47\00:23:17.97
but it's got a lot of area
for improvement. All right, you
00:23:18.00\00:23:23.38
know we are obviously going
to have Dr. Siebold come back
00:23:23.41\00:23:28.98
and join us for some other
programs because what we are
00:23:29.01\00:23:34.51
doing today is just taking a
quick look, a very brief soiree
00:23:34.54\00:23:41.27
into the problems of our
educational systems in this
00:23:41.31\00:23:47.50
world and hoping that we kind
of pique your curiosity, maybe
00:23:47.53\00:23:52.75
jar you loose a little bit to
think about the area of reform.
00:23:52.78\00:23:57.58
We are going to have you come
back and talk about reform and
00:23:57.62\00:24:01.40
some of the things that the
Lord has been leading you in and
00:24:01.43\00:24:07.38
obviously is with many other
people. Your children are now
00:24:07.42\00:24:11.56
older, but you do have a
daughter that's in her senior
00:24:11.60\00:24:16.28
year in high school, right?
Were they always educated in
00:24:16.32\00:24:20.08
Christian school or did they
start out in public schools?
00:24:20.12\00:24:25.76
Well my oldest daughter went
into a Christian school for her
00:24:25.79\00:24:31.26
first grade year and then after
that we ended up just through
00:24:31.30\00:24:36.20
a series of events planning
to do one year temporary home
00:24:36.24\00:24:41.11
schooling and then we
moved into the second year.
00:24:41.15\00:24:45.29
And did you notice any
significant difference in the
00:24:45.32\00:24:49.39
curriculum... I mean, we're
talking in theory here so I want
00:24:49.43\00:24:52.63
to bring this down to the
real thing...did you notice any
00:24:52.66\00:24:56.18
significant difference when
your children started going from
00:24:56.21\00:25:00.64
public school into Christian
school or did you find what you
00:25:00.67\00:25:04.97
just said is that basically what
happened is that now she had a
00:25:05.01\00:25:09.28
Bible class and
Christian teachers?
00:25:09.31\00:25:11.04
Well I've dealt with Adventist
education a lot and there's a
00:25:11.08\00:25:16.01
significantly different product,
I think we'll find in Christian
00:25:16.05\00:25:21.38
schools as you'll find in public
schools. But there's so much
00:25:21.41\00:25:25.88
variety and individuality, too.
I mean, you go from one school
00:25:25.92\00:25:30.96
to another school, there's so
much. The teachers are different
00:25:30.99\00:25:35.75
the books they use are different
even in the same county there
00:25:35.78\00:25:40.51
can be some pretty great
variance between those, but I
00:25:40.54\00:25:43.86
think we've found Christian
education to be a really
00:25:43.90\00:25:47.83
valuable product and I think
what the Lord has impressed me
00:25:47.86\00:25:51.36
with is we need
to keep pushing it.
00:25:51.40\00:25:54.39
Amen. So basically what we are
saying, the premise that we are
00:25:54.43\00:26:02.11
laying today is that the problem
with the system... if you're a
00:26:02.15\00:26:07.71
teacher or a principle, please
we love you and we know that
00:26:07.74\00:26:11.64
you're doing the best with
what you've got...but we are
00:26:11.68\00:26:15.80
looking at and we're going
to evolve in this matter on our
00:26:15.84\00:26:20.31
next program. But the main
problem with the school system
00:26:20.34\00:26:24.77
is that it is one that
is teaching children more,
00:26:24.81\00:26:29.26
or drawing more on memorization
rather than actual application
00:26:29.29\00:26:35.40
and may in some ways be killing
off, or smothering, I should
00:26:35.43\00:26:41.51
say, the intuitive seeking and
learning ability that God put
00:26:41.54\00:26:48.39
into little babies. So
what happens is when we have
00:26:48.42\00:26:53.26
great teachers they're able
to pull that out of young people
00:26:53.29\00:26:58.01
even in the system we have.
That's a difficult thing to do
00:26:58.04\00:27:02.72
with the time limit and the bell
00:27:02.76\00:27:08.30
Yes, when you have a child for,
what is it, 50 minutes a day or
00:27:08.34\00:27:13.13
whatever. Yes that would
be. Well I was just going to say
00:27:13.17\00:27:16.60
One of the common sayings of
trying to help kind of set this
00:27:17.60\00:27:22.08
in memory is having the teacher
move from the sage on the stage
00:27:22.11\00:27:27.28
to the guide on the side. It
tries to help keep it away from
00:27:27.32\00:27:31.91
content and move back into the
idea where you're helping them
00:27:31.94\00:27:36.49
become learners. Well,
you know, Randy, I can't
00:27:36.53\00:27:39.11
wait for you to come back
because we've just kind of
00:27:39.14\00:27:42.08
cracked open an egg here,
if you will, and it may seem a
00:27:42.11\00:27:45.15
little bit scrambled to
you right now, but I hope that
00:27:45.19\00:27:48.16
you'll be able to join us next
time because we're going to get
00:27:48.20\00:27:50.94
into this a little bit
deeper and look at some of the
00:27:50.98\00:27:53.43
solutions. Randy thank you
so much for being with us here
00:27:53.47\00:27:55.89
today. I
appreciate it, thank you.
00:27:55.93\00:27:57.54
For those of you at home I do
encourage you to come back and
00:27:57.57\00:28:01.25
watch the next program because
this is going to get quite
00:28:01.28\00:28:04.89
interesting and now our prayer
for you is that the grace of our
00:28:04.92\00:28:07.60
Lord Jesus Christ, the love
of the Father and the fellowship
00:28:07.63\00:28:10.27
of the Holy Spirit will
be with you always. Bye, Bye.
00:28:10.31\00:28:16.02