Participants: C A Murray (Host), Lee Gugliotto
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000366
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00:30 Hi, Welcome to Issues and Answers. My name is 00:33 C. A. Murray and my guest is Dr. Lee Gugliotto. We have been 00:38 talking about Bible study, the issue of Bible study, how to 00:42 do it, what to look for, what pitfalls to try to work your way 00:47 around, how to go to the Bible, how to understand what the Bible 00:51 is saying to you as opposed to you reading your preconceptions 00:54 into the word of God. And of course this is crucial because 00:58 what we understand from the word of God affects our life here and 01:03 hereafter, now and eternity. And so understanding the Bible 01:06 as it was meant to be understood reading out of the Bible as 01:09 opposed to into the Bible is very, very crucial to a correct 01:13 understanding of what the Lord is trying to say to us. Dr. Lee 01:17 has spent his adult life teaching these precepts, 01:21 teaching these concepts and we get to talk with him and pick 01:25 his brain a little bit today so good to have you back. 01:26 It's good to be back. 01:28 We ran out of time really when last we were together dealing 01:32 with Bible study. Let's do a quick recap of some of the 01:36 salient points from our last session together. One we asked 01:39 what it is and what to look for when we're going to the Bible. 01:43 How do you start, how do you work your way through it? 01:45 Well of course we came to the conclusion from scripture Bible 01:49 study is learning about Christ from Christ because the Holy 01:54 Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, repeats what Jesus tells him. 01:58 He's our appointed teacher. So if we're studying the Bible as 02:02 it should be studied then Jesus is going to be the one who is 02:06 actually teaching us. That's important. Let's see, what was 02:10 the other principle? Well one of the things we really 02:12 spent a lot of time on was you, I'm going to use the word harp 02:16 on it. When we go to the Bible it's context, context, context. 02:21 Yes, context is very important. I mean for example here we are, 02:25 and you know we're on screen here and for a moment there the 02:28 both of us were on screen and people have the big picture. 02:32 They can see the whole set, they can see you, they can see me. 02:35 But if they were just looking right now at the camera looking 02:39 at me, they're not getting the whole picture. All they're 02:43 seeing is just me and they can't even see where I am, where I'm 02:48 sitting, why I'm talking, who am I talking with. I mean so the 02:53 point is as the picture expands and now we can see the both of 02:57 us in the picture, now they have a better understanding. They can 03:02 see where I am, they can see who I'm talking with, they can see 03:07 what I'm up to, what you're up to. So it makes it much easier 03:11 then for people to understand what's happening. The same 03:15 thing is true when you study the Bible. If you try to take, like 03:19 even said on the last program, just rush right in, just dive 03:22 right in to a text you're going to miss a lot of what's around 03:27 it. And that text is not there by itself. It's part of a bigger 03:31 machine, it's part of a bigger thing. And so you have to 03:36 take into account the whole of what it's a part of and then you 03:40 have to take into account what comes before and what comes 03:44 after. Any dictionary would define context as taking into 03:48 account the surrounding words before and after so you can 03:52 grasp the fuller meaning of what you want to study. 03:55 Lee, we said it was a little counterintuitive. We've got to 03:59 resist the temptation to dive right into the text. I'm looking 04:03 at Psalm 23. So I go right to Psalm 23 and I just dive into 04:08 Psalm 23. I risk making a mistake don't I? 04:10 Sure you do because Psalm 23 does not exist by itself. It's a 04:15 passage in the book of Psalms. Just like if you were going 04:19 through any Bible book, if you look you're going to see all 04:23 these subheadings as you're going through. Those subheadings 04:26 are dividing the book into passages, units of thought, 04:32 collections of verses that are all dealing with something that 04:35 they all have in common, a person, a place, a thing, 04:37 whatever it is. And so if you're going to jump in on one passage 04:41 you can't just study it without knowing well what came before 04:46 so that you understand how the writer leads up to and prepares 04:50 the way for the part you want to study. And then if you really 04:53 want to understand what you're studying, like Psalm 23, in 04:57 addition to seeing how Psalm 22 gets us ready for Psalm 23, then 05:02 you want to see how Psalm 23 gets us ready for Psalm 24, what 05:07 comes after it. In this way you begin to see the bigger picture 05:11 and as you're interpreting Psalm 23 you're taking into account 05:15 the bigger picture. Now this leads us into our 05:19 discussion for today because something occurs to me. The 05:23 Bible gives its own definition on how to study the Bible. It says 05:26 here a little, there a little. The problem can be that if I 05:31 sort of cherry pick I can sort of force the Bible, I can sort 05:34 of arm wrestle the Bible to say what I want it to say by using 05:37 that same method. So what we need to wrestle with today, Good 05:41 Doctor, is how do we stay away from that particular pitfall 05:45 because you have said we need to find a certain, what's the 05:48 word I want, a pattern in the Bible which means you have to 05:51 go to a number of places. You don't want to develop a doctrine 05:55 with just one little text, but having done so we can sort of 05:58 arm wrestle the Bible a little bit and come away with what we 06:01 want. The best way to study the Bible 06:03 is, of course, the understand the passage in itself first; 06:08 come to grips with the message of the passage itself. So like 06:12 said we start with the big picture of the whole book and 06:15 then from the big picture of the book you start zeroing in 06:18 carefully on the passage you want to study taking into 06:21 account what comes before and after. Once then you've come to 06:25 grips with that passage now you want to connect it with the rest 06:29 of the Bible. To take into account the full counsel of 06:33 scripture so you can understand the passage even better and to 06:37 see the contribution the passage makes to the rest of the Bible. 06:43 So that is the skill that mostly we need to develop is how do I 06:47 go beyond this book and connect with other Bible books? Now the 06:52 mistake most people make is they use their theology. See, you 06:57 start using your preconceived notions now and yes this verse 07:02 must connect with that verse because in my theology they're 07:06 connected. Another mistake people make is they go right to 07:09 a Strong's Concordance. They'll look at a Strong's Concordance 07:13 and they say oh well the same words are in this verse as are 07:17 in that verse, therefore, they must be connected so they don't 07:21 understand that a Strong's Concordance only looks at the 07:26 content, the words in the passages, it doesn't look at the 07:30 context, taking into account the surrounding passages' words and 07:35 the flow of the writer's thought that gives it meaning. So what 07:41 I propose is a simple method and it can be very complicated if 07:45 you want to make it that way but it's really quite simple. 07:49 The best thing to do is to look for what I call inspired 07:53 connections in the Bible. Look for connections between verses 07:59 that tell you that the writers, those inspired writers, made an 08:05 authentic connection between themselves. Learn how to 08:10 recognize an inspired connection. 08:12 That's powerful. As opposed to you making the connection let 08:15 the Bible make the connection. 08:16 Exactly. So let's take for example. Let's take a powerful 08:20 passage. Why don't you open your Bible and we'll go to Revelation 08:26 chapter 12 and verse 17. Now we'll use this because there's a 08:31 lot of great lessons connected with this, just some tremendous 08:36 things. Verse 17 says so the dragon was enraged with the 08:40 woman and went off to make war with the rest of her children 08:44 who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of 08:50 Jesus. OK now. You look at that verse and you say well how do I 08:54 connect that with other verses in the Bible? Well the simplest 08:59 way to do that is, of course, if you recognize from this verse, 09:04 if it triggers a memory. You say that reminds me of... Could 09:09 there be a connection. You start looking at that verse. OK. For 09:14 all intents and purposes on this occasion, let's look in the 09:18 margin. If you look in the margin of your study Bible, what 09:23 your Bible will do is it will give you some suggested verses. 09:27 It will suggest other verses in the Bible that are connected 09:31 with verse 17. See, OK. And I say suggest because again the 09:35 publisher has an ax to grind as well and so many publishers, 09:39 their scholars have put these margin things together. This 09:43 reflects their understanding of scripture. So you cannot just 09:47 automatically say well my study Bible says that verse so they 09:50 really must be connected. You can't assume that. What you do 09:55 is you have to start researching the connection between the two. 09:59 So what you're going to do is you're going to look, and we're 10:02 going to look through here and there are a number of verses 10:05 that are connected with Revelation 12:17. What'll 10:10 happen is what they're looking for is, of course, resemblance. 10:15 That's what we're looking for. If another verse is a real 10:18 match for this verse, there'll be a lot of resemblance. If it's 10:22 only partial resemblance then it's only going to resemble a 10:27 part of this verse. And if you've ever noticed in your 10:30 margins you'll see sometimes a little letter a and then a 10:33 little b and little c. That's because the verse has been 10:36 divided into segments. OK, for example it's saying that certain 10:41 verses are only connected with the first part of it, that's 10:45 part a. If the verse is divided into two parts there'll be an a 10:49 and a b. If it's three parts, a, b, and c and so on. Now when I'm 10:53 looking through the margin here I see that this publisher is 10:59 recommending that Genesis 3:15 connects with Revelation 12:17. 11:04 OK, let's check that out. They are in opposite poles of the 11:08 scriptures and if we can see a connection, authenticate a 11:13 connection between verses that far apart, you should be able to 11:17 authenticate connections between any verses in the Bible. 11:20 OK, so here's the first thing we're going to do. When you read 11:24 the verse from your passage and you want to connect it, look at 11:28 that verse and carefully look and see what are the main 11:34 characters or actions or locations whatever. In this case 11:39 there seem to be characters or personalities. So the dragon was 11:44 enraged with the woman and went off to make war with the rest of 11:48 her children who keep the commandments of God and hold to 11:51 the testimony of Jesus. We have three main personalities or 11:56 characters: The dragon, the woman and the children. OK! Now 12:01 let's go to Genesis 3:15 and we'll try to see if there's a 12:06 legitimate connections between these verses. So Genesis 3 and 12:14 verse 15. And Genesis 3:15 says and I will put enmity between 12:19 you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He shall 12:25 bruise you on the head and you shall bruise him on the heel. OK 12:29 now. Let's see what do we have here. Who are the personalities 12:34 here? There are three personalities in Revelation 12:37 12:17. If all three appear in verse 15 that's a match. If only 12:42 two of three appear, there's likelihood but not guarantee. 12:46 that there's a match and if only one of the three match it could 12:50 be just a coincidence. So let's look and see what we have. I 12:54 will put enmity between you and the woman. Who is you? If you 12:59 go back to verse 14 the you that God is speaking to is the 13:04 serpent. OK. The second personality in Genesis 3:15 is 13:09 the woman. And then the third personality is the seed. OK. 13:14 The offspring of the woman. Now let's go back here to Revelation 13:19 12:17. We have a dragon, a woman and children or seed as many 13:25 Bibles translate in verse 17. So the woman matches up and the 13:30 children and the seed match up. That's two out of three. We have 13:36 a dragon in the one and a serpent in the other. Now at 13:39 first you say will that doesn't look like it's a match. However, 13:43 you've been studying probably most of Revelation 12 and if 13:46 you've been studying Revelation 12 you would notice that back in 13:50 verse 9 it said and the great dragon was thrown down, the 13:55 serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan. 13:57 See that buttresses your point to even know what the dragon is 14:02 here in 17 you have to have read some context. You have to 14:06 have come across that before in other chapters so you can get an 14:09 understanding of what's going on Particularly in Revelation that 14:12 is very, very important. 14:13 Yeah, because in Revelation he's drawing on all parts of the 14:16 Bible and you're going to see little fragments of many verses 14:20 in every verse. John's amazing. He does an amazing job. So we 14:24 know now from verse nine that the dragon was the serpent, so 14:30 we have a match. However, there are certain restrictions here. 14:35 We have a dragon in one and a serpent in the other and so 14:39 there needs to be some kind of understanding as how did the 14:44 serpent become a dragon? OK. Now without getting too heavy in all 14:48 of that what we're looking at here is a matter called 14:51 typology. Typology is the relationship between the Old and 14:56 New Testaments whereby symbols in the Old Testament that apply 15:01 to national Israel become symbols that point forward to 15:06 realities for Messianic Israel and those symbols now become 15:12 what we call types. OK. And those symbols find fulfillment 15:16 in the New Testament. However, they find fulfillment in 15:20 something greater than themselves, greater than 15:25 themselves. So the serpent and the dragon are one and the same 15:28 however, the dragon was a serpent with limitations in 15:33 Genesis chapter 3 but becomes a full blown dragon with the 15:38 capacities of a dragon when you get to Revelation chapter 12. So 15:42 understand that any comparison between the two verses is going 15:47 to be based on somehow this expansion from a serpent in 15:53 Genesis 3 to a dragon in Revelation chapter 12. 15:58 Now the other thing we have to do to verify a legitimate 16:01 connection is not only do the characters or whatever these 16:05 items are have to match but what either what they do or what 16:09 happens to them should match as well. So let's take it one step 16:14 at a time. OK. In Revelation 12:17 what's happening between 16:18 the dragon and the woman? The dragon is enraged with the woman 16:23 What was happening between the serpent and the woman in Genesis 16:28 3:15. God says I will put enmity between you and the woman. Now 16:33 what is enmity? Now if you did your study you would see that 16:37 enmity is a sense of hostility. When I translate this I 16:41 translate enmity as bad blood. It's bad blood between the 16:45 serpent and the woman. So let's have a match in a sense again. 16:51 As the serpent is to a dragon, much greater, we have enmity, 16:57 you know basic hostility that turns into full blown rage when 17:02 we get to Revelation 12:17. So there is a connection and it is 17:07 a kind of an escalating, expanding connection from 17:11 Genesis 3 to Revelation 12. OK? Now what's going on with the 17:15 rest of them? We have also in this we have the dragon and 17:20 the seed. What's going one between the dragon and the 17:23 woman's children or seed. Well in Revelation 12:17 there's a 17:29 full blown war going on between the dragon and the 17:32 children, a full blown war. When we come back to Genesis 3:15 17:38 what happens here? We see that the seed of the woman and the 17:43 seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent are in one-on-one 17:48 combat and it is life and death. One is going to bruise the 17:52 other's head and the other is going to bruise him on the heel. 17:58 So what you have is in Genesis 3:15, we have on the level of 18:03 the serpent we have between the serpent and the seed we have 18:09 one-on-one mortal combat. When you get to Revelation 12:17 we 18:14 have all-out war and not just between the serpent and a seed, 18:19 but between the dragon and all the rest of her children. OK. So 18:24 we do have a match. These two verses are actually legitimately 18:29 connected. And as you're studying Revelation 12 you 18:33 begin to see some of the reasons why. OK. Revelation 12 deals 18:39 with very delicate issues and that issue is if Genesis 3:15 18:45 was really speaking about strictly combat between the 18:51 serpent and one seed which in Galatians Paul tells us was the 18:57 seed, Jesus Christ. OK. Then how come the whole thing between 19:03 Jesus and Satan didn't end when Jesus went back to heaven? 19:08 It should have been over, right? Well look at the chapter again. 19:11 When you start in Revelation 12:1 you have a woman clothed 19:14 with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her head a crown 19:18 of 12 stars and she was with child. And she cried out being 19:21 in labor and in pain to give birth. Another sign appeared in 19:24 heaven and behold a great red dragon having seven heads and 19:28 10 horns and on his head were seven diadems and his tail swept 19:32 away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the 19:35 earth and the dragon stood before the woman who was about 19:39 to give birth so that when she gave birth he might devour her 19:43 child. Now here is your confrontation between the dragon 19:47 the Seed and obviously the man child we're talking about here 19:52 is the Lord Jesus Christ. He's waiting to devour the child. 19:55 However, verse five, she gave birth to a son, a male child, 19:59 who was to rule all the nations with a rod of iron and her child 20:04 was caught up to God and to his throne. Shucks says the dragon. 20:08 Didn't get 'im. Now the combat should be over, right? Yes. But 20:12 it's not. There's more to this than appears and that's why 20:16 there is a connection between Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 20:20 12:17. Because at that point, at that point, the woman, verse six 20:24 flees into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God. 20:29 So there she would be nourished for 1,260 days. OK. So what 20:35 happens now is the dragon turns his anger, his frustration, he 20:40 turns it on the woman and he's trying to get rid of... and 20:45 let's just say the woman is the church... So now he's trying to 20:48 get rid of the organized church. Twelve hundred and sixty days 20:53 there's an interlude here where we have the reference back to 20:58 the serpent, the dragon, and the battle between Michael and his 21:03 angels and the devil and his angels and so on. And then we 21:09 get back to the story again in verse 13. When the dragon saw 21:13 that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman 21:18 who gave birth to the male child OK. So he's out to get her, but 21:22 the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman so that 21:26 she could fly into the wilderness to her place 21:28 where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time 21:33 from the presence of the serpent And the serpent poured water 21:38 like a river out of his mouth after the woman so that he might 21:42 cause her to be swept away with a flood, but the earth helped 21:46 the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river 21:50 which the dragon poured out of his mouth. Shucks number two. 21:54 He tried to get rid of the woman and he can't get rid of her 21:59 either. So now the dragon he is really angry and so now he is 22:04 enraged with the woman and you can see that this has been 22:08 escalating all along and instead of giving up went off to make 22:13 war with the rest of her children who keep the 22:16 commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. So now 22:21 you begin to understand all this better. In the light of Genesis 22:25 3:15 you see that what's happening in 12:17 is rooted in 22:29 the ancient description of the combat between the serpent and 22:34 his seed and the woman and her seed, a confrontation between 22:40 Satan and Christ. But what Revelation 12 does is it takes 22:45 that conflict described in Genesis 3:15 and expands on it 22:50 till we understand that it was not over. After that the dragon 22:54 knows he's defeated, he knows it's over, he knows there's 22:58 nothing he can do. But what does he do? He continues to carry out 23:02 his anger. It turns into rage and first he tries to get rid of 23:06 the church as a whole. When he can't do that he's out to 23:09 exterminate her remnant, those last children who resemble Jesus 23:13 They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of 23:18 Jesus. Now what is interesting about 23:19 this, Good Doctor, is that one of the keys for understanding 23:24 Revelation is found all the way back in the book of Genesis and 23:29 without that full set of going through the whole Bible, you 23:33 don't get a true and accurate picture of what's going on in 23:37 Revelation because the key is way back in the first book, 66 23:40 books later the riddle is unmasked as it were. 23:44 So again you're reemphasizing the point that to understand a 23:49 given text you've got to find the context and that context may 23:54 exist 66 books earlier in the book of Genesis. 23:58 Yeah. The context of the book of Revelation begins with the 24:01 book of Genesis. So now we understand the reason we're 24:05 being persecuted by the enemy, the reason he is out to 24:09 exterminate and get rid of us is not just because he's mad at us, 24:13 it began with his frustration because he wanted to exterminate 24:17 Christ, he wanted to defeat and get rid of Jesus. He was unable 24:20 to do that. So the reason the enemy hates us is because he 24:25 hated Jesus first. Isn't that what Jesus said. In John he told 24:30 his followers believe me if the world persecutes you, it 24:34 persecuted me and if it hated you remember this, it hated me 24:39 first. So we see that playing itself out here. So now you can 24:43 connect with other verses in the Bible, for example that one in 24:46 particular about the hate directed at Christ is hate that 24:51 was now directed or deflected toward us and so on. So this is 24:56 how you study the Bible, right? Don't isolate a verse, don't 25:00 bring a system to that verse, don't try to force it to say 25:04 something or to fit your agenda or whatever. Just the sheer joy 25:09 of connecting with Christ, listening to him, trying to 25:14 understand the way the whole Bible is speaking to you. That 25:18 is the real joy of Bible study. That's powerful. 25:20 Do we have time, Good Doctor, to get into timeless truths, 25:23 principles and precepts. I want to try to get that real, real 25:26 quick. Can we do it? 25:27 Actually that's going to take quite a bit of time. Yeah, we 25:30 should save that for another program. But the thing here 25:34 again is also we can see the typology as valid. Now 25:39 understand the writers of the scriptures, especially the New 25:43 Testament writers, they and the prophets were hand in hand in 25:47 this. See the prophets originally, if you look at the 25:51 early prophets, they're calling Israel to go back. In other 25:55 words, if we can just get our act together with God, God will 26:00 bring back the glory days of Solomon, because that to them 26:04 was the height of what God had done for Israel and so they 26:07 wanted to go back to the good ole' days. But as the prophets 26:11 continued to plead with Israel as time went on they discovered 26:16 that it was not going to be. Israel was not going to respond 26:21 at that time. Their response was way in the future in the days of 26:25 the Messiah, in the latter days OK. So in the latter days what's 26:29 going to happen is the fulfillment of promises made to 26:32 Israel in the Old Testament are going to take place in the 26:35 latter days. So that's when the prophets instead of talking, 26:39 continuing to deal with symbols and their limited application to 26:43 national Israel, now they begin to talk about symbols that have 26:47 even greater power; symbols that project way into the future 26:51 looking for grand fulfillments at the end of time. And so the 26:55 prophets are then ones who invent typology. So the New 26:59 Testament writers, they see this connection between the Old 27:03 Testament and the New, going from the shadows of the Old to 27:06 these grand realities, these glorious realities in the New 27:10 Testament. And so they use typology in their writings and 27:14 the early church did too, but then some of the early church 27:18 fathers went, they went overboard with typology and it 27:21 became discredited for a long time. But anyone who really 27:25 wants to understand prophecy, to understand the New Testament in 27:29 light of the Old has to understand typology and I think 27:32 we've got a pretty good taste of it today. 27:34 I do too. Thanks Dr. Lee. This has been good. 27:36 Thank you for having me. 27:39 We've seen that Bible study can be a blessing, it can be a very 27:44 good thing when we follow a few simple rules. Our time has 27:47 slipped away. We'll be back next time as we talk more about this 27:50 fascinating thing called study of the word of God, Bible study. 27:53 We'll see you again on Issues and Answers. Bye bye. |
Revised 2016-01-20