Participants: Ruthie Jacobsen (Host), Derek Morris, Tim Garrison
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000355
|
00:01 ¤ ¤
00:30 Hello and welcome to another program, Issues and Answers. 00:34 Today we're going to be talking about something radical. That's 00:40 a strong word isn't it? Radical. And it really comes from 00:45 scripture from Luke 10 where Jesus is talking. The word of 00:51 God is so powerful and so personal. God is an intimate 00:56 God and he has a wonderful plan for your life. I want you to 01:00 meet my guests. Tim Garrison and Derek Morris. 01:04 Great to be here. Glad to be with you. 01:06 Tim Garrison you are from Camarillo, California. Yes. 01:11 And what do you do there? 01:12 I'm a church planter. I'm planting a church nearby in 01:16 Moorpark, California. 01:18 And Derek Morris is from Florida 01:22 I'm a pastor at Forest Lake Church and allowing God to throw 01:25 me out into his harvest. 01:27 And before you came to Apopka, Florida what were you doing? 01:31 Well half of my ministry has been a teaching ministry at 01:35 Southern Adventist University so I've been a teacher and a 01:38 pastor and now I'm a pastor and a teacher. 01:41 That's great. And Tim you have been a pastor and now you are a 01:47 church planter? Yes that's right. 01:48 What does that mean? Well it's a change from 01:52 established church pastoring in established churches to a whole 01:56 new understanding of the way in which we start a church and I 02:00 feel like you said Derek, I've been thrown out into the fields 02:06 so to speak and I've had to grow very dependent on God in my 02:10 church planting and learn what it's like to really experience 02:15 faith first hand. An established church can become 02:21 something that is even too easy, something that you can take for 02:25 granted. Not saying that pastors do that necessarily but you can 02:29 take that situation for granted because those people are going 02:33 be there every week. 02:34 Well yes and there's already an infrastructure in place. There 02:38 are buildings in place, there is a tradition in place and you 02:42 step in as a pastor, you preach good sermons, you enhance the 02:47 program there. But things are already established. 02:50 You're on a roll. Yes exactly and so yes there is 02:54 a tendency sometimes to just kind of go with that, to feel 02:58 somewhat complacent at certain points and say well I'm doing a 03:02 fine job, things are fine, people aren't complaining, they 03:06 love my sermons and so you don't have that sense of being 03:11 tossed out into a situation where everything is suddenly new 03:15 and you have to create and start something from scratch. 03:19 That's true. In an established church it may not be growing but 03:23 nobody is really complaining about it as long as everything 03:27 is going along smoothly. 03:29 You satisfy the saints, you know they're happy. You know you do 03:33 the essential pastoring work you that need to do. 03:34 Whatever's expected of you as a pastor. 03:36 But for the most part they won't complain. They'll be happy and 03:39 things will just continue as they have for years. 03:42 But a church planter is concerned about church growth 03:46 and new people and reaching a community in a way that an 03:50 established pastor may not be so concerned about. 03:53 Oh absolutely, absolutely and I know Derek is going to talk 03:57 about the radical prayer and being tossed out and suddenly 04:01 realizing that you have to have total dependence on God, and 04:05 when you're in those circumstances and situations 04:08 you talk about radical prayer. I mean, you go to your knees 04:11 real quick because you realize that you really need a source 04:14 beyond yourself. You know, the word radical is 04:20 itself a strong word. This is a strong word and yet we are 04:26 talking about something radical, extreme and Dr. Derek Morris 04:32 has written a wonderful little book called The Radical Prayer. 04:37 So do you want to hear about this? There are some wonderful 04:41 stories we want to hear. How did you write this book and how did 04:46 this just capture your thinking. 04:49 That's a very important question because actually it was a 04:52 process of over about nine years I was reading the Bible, a very 04:56 familiar text in Luke 10 where Jesus says the harvest is great 05:00 but the laborers are few. And the way it's translated in 05:04 English, it just says therefore pray the Lord of the harvest 05:09 to send out laborers and that's not very radical at all. What I 05:13 discovered is that I began to study in the Greek, in the 05:17 original language is that what Jesus says is far more radical 05:21 than that. And I think the translators, they were hesitant 05:26 to really say what Jesus said. Let me just give it to you very 05:31 simply, what Jesus said, literal translation: I want you to begin 05:36 to beg the Lord of the harvest, to pray like you've never prayed 05:41 before and even before we know what the prayer is, we've got a 05:46 clue, this is something very intense. It's the kind of 05:49 begging like the leper when he came to Jesus and said if you're 05:53 willing you can make me clean so we know it's intense and it's an 05:57 imperative, it's an urgent appeal to beg the Lord of the 06:00 harvest. But what's even more radical is when he asks us to 06:05 pray. It isn't to send out laborers. What Jesus says is I 06:10 want you to beg the Lord of the harvest, and he uses a verb, 06:15 ekballo and ballo means to throw like throwing out the nets 06:19 from the ship or when they wanted to throw rocks at Jesus. 06:23 The prefix ek means out. Ekballo means to throw out, to 06:29 cast out laborers. And you say wow that's dangerous, that's 06:34 radical. It's the kind of prayer that while you may not have used 06:38 the same words, Tim, that you prayed when you said Lord of the 06:42 harvest if there really are many people just wanting to hear the 06:46 good news about Jesus, the harvest is great and sometimes 06:49 we don't see that, but Lord open my eyes to see it, and the 06:53 laborers are few. They're playing it safe in their safe 06:58 settings. God, I give you permission to throw me out into 07:02 your harvest. Great men of God, great women of God down through 07:06 the ages, they prayed that in their own words and miracles 07:09 happen when we're willing to pray that radical prayer. 07:13 Let me identify with that a little bit and tell you my own 07:16 personal experience when it comes to that concept. When I 07:20 went over to Moorpark and I thought oh this is different 07:23 you know. I'm not going to an established church. I have to do 07:27 something from scratch and I drove around and I thought about 07:29 where are we going to meet, you know, how is this going to 07:32 happen and I went by Mesa Verde Middle School where we currently 07:36 are meeting and I thought wow the Lord just kind of impressed 07:39 me this was the place. I drove into the parking lot. School was 07:43 not in session, there was no one around and I knelt there at that 07:47 school and I identify with that prayer. You know, I said Lord 07:52 only you can make this happen and I felt like you said, tossed 07:57 out, you know, out into the field to where I had to be 08:01 dependent on God totally. 08:03 And you were, I believe, given a sense by the Lord himself and he 08:08 was saying, Tim, this is it but boy are you going to need me. 08:13 Yes. And so he was giving you a sense of the urgency. 08:19 But I'm convinced that the proportion of our faith is 08:24 really determined by the level of risk that we take and the 08:28 only way that we can really discover the level of our faith 08:33 is when we do go out on a limb for the Lord. 08:36 That's right. I believe the Lord himself can't bless us, can't 08:42 use us until we have a real deep seated sense of our need and the 08:48 Lord says OK now when you realize how much you need me I 08:53 can do something for you. 08:54 And yet we don't realize how much we need him until we allow 08:58 ourselves, the radical prayer, to be thrown out into a 09:02 circumstance where we are totally dependent on him. 09:05 And you know what happens, and you've shared what happened for 09:09 you, immediately the door didn't open for you. Jesus said you'll 09:13 feel I send you out as lambs, even if he didn't say among 09:18 wolves, which is even worse. Just being a lamb you say I'm 09:22 not that smart, I'm not that strong... 09:25 Pretty helpless little animal. 09:26 Right. I am going to need to radically depend on the Lord of 09:31 the harvest for this to happen. But that's where growth in faith 09:35 occurs and also joy occurs because when God joins you in 09:41 what may seem like an impossible situation you know it's God's 09:46 work. It's his miracle. 09:47 Let me tell you the rest of the story. I contacted the district, 09:51 the school district, about that particular location that I felt 09:54 impressed that was where the Lord wanted us and they said no. 09:58 They said we can't do it because we can't provide custodians to 10:02 be there to man the school while you're there. Well one of our 10:06 core group members happened to be a tax accountant and one of 10:11 her clients was a custodian, a custodian at that very school 10:15 and she talked to her client this custodian said, I will 10:19 personally come and open that school and be there for them. 10:23 Not a happenstance. 10:25 No not a happenstance. And when I called the school district 10:29 back I said I have great news. I have found a custodian that 10:32 will do it and so they had no choice but to open the school 10:36 to us. I just have to ask you, haven't 10:39 you discovered too that often with great opportunities there 10:45 are great obstacles and we have to keep pressing and this is why 10:50 the desperate prayer is so important, because the enemy 10:54 and our circumstances would cause us to step back and say 10:59 well maybe this really wasn't the thing for me and that's when 11:03 we're supposed to keep praying and pressing through. 11:06 Well I believe you're absolutely right. Determination really is 11:11 the thing that fuels our faith and keeps us at it and if it's 11:14 meant to be the Lord will provide the way, but we have to 11:18 continue pushing. And I found in church planting, boy, there are 11:23 all kinds of obstacles and things and constant stories. 11:26 But one thing I have to say is that when doors open and when 11:30 faith is demonstrated, the next time, you know, like it says 11:34 you look back on the way the Lord has led and you say the 11:37 Lord can do it again. Amen. 11:39 And when you come into this dependence what happens is if 11:44 you read in Luke 10, Jesus when he says give me permission, let 11:47 the Lord of the harvest throw you out into his harvest, he'll 11:52 put you exactly where he knows you're most effective, but he 11:55 says don't take any money with you, don't take a beggars bag 11:59 with you. I want you to be at a 12:01 disadvantage. Radically dependent upon me. 12:04 But here's the powerful piece. Luke mentions this later in Luke 12:08 22. He says when I send you out without money and without 12:13 beggars bag and without extra sandals, did you lack anything? 12:17 And they could say nothing. 12:19 Nothing Lord, but they had to be willing to pray that radical 12:23 prayer and so if you hadn't been willing to step out in this 12:27 church plant you'd never have experienced that, you'd never 12:31 be able to say he is Jehovah- Jireh, the Lord will provide. 12:35 I've learned that by experience. I mean just what they're saying. 12:38 That's right. Anyone who is willing to be thrown out can 12:41 step back and say, I've learned this by experience; it's mine. 12:46 Now it's more precious than ever Tell me about somebody in your 12:51 ministry that can say this, yes I prayed a desperate prayer, yes 12:55 I prayed the radical prayer. It changed my life and I can see 12:59 that God is faithful, he used me. Tell me a story. 13:03 Well I have a remarkable story of a lady names Evie. She grew 13:07 up in a Jewish family. She went to one of our Adventist high 13:11 schools, learned about Jesus but was not allowed to follow her 13:16 faith in Jesus as a young child, went her whole life without 13:21 Jesus being her Messiah. She got into prescription drugs and 13:26 various addictions. Just a few years ago she came back. She 13:30 said you know I have believed all of my life that Jesus is the 13:34 Messiah. She started attending our church on-line, has since 13:38 moved to the Orlando area, but here's the ekballo, being 13:43 thrown out. She said you know, I would like to lead a Christian 13:48 12-step program for people who struggle with addictions. She 13:53 said I believe now that Jesus is the Higher Power. Jesus is my 13:58 Messiah. And she was being obedient. 14:00 She said I want you to throw me out into your harvest. Now she 14:04 could easily say I don't want people to know that I've had 14:09 this addiction in the past. But she said no God knows my 14:14 journey, he knows me talents. She has started a regeneration 14:18 ministry, 12-step program. It started one night a week, then 14:22 it went to twice a week. Now it's three times a week. 14:24 How many people are involved in this? 14:26 They have a couple of leaders but what's amazing is it's a 14:30 small group, maybe eight, 10, 12 people come, but people are 14:34 walking in off of the street. They're pulling into the parking 14:38 lot... Because there's help. 14:40 Well they're seeing authenticity and you know what's happening 14:47 for Evie, right. She's experiencing joy. Because she 14:50 says you know she said now I know why God has called me back. 14:55 Jesus has work for me to do. And so she's experiencing radical 15:00 joy because she's given him permission to throw her out. 15:03 Now she'd be the first to tell you that she's facing challenges 15:07 She'd be the first to tell you that she has to radically depend 15:11 on the Lord. That's part of this teaching in Luke 10 and what 15:16 happens is other people now, God's not going to use them to 15:20 start a Christian 12-step program perhaps but they're 15:23 saying Lord I want to pray this radical prayer. I want to give 15:27 you permission to throw me out into your harvest. Our quilting 15:32 ministry, we've got 30-35 people making prayer quilts, (beautiful 15:37 quilts), yes, and giving them out to people in the community. 15:41 Just this week some people from the cancer center came. They 15:45 said, we need some quilts to be able to give so they're not 15:49 running a 12-step program, but they're sewing beautiful quilts 15:52 they're praying over those quilts and saying God let this 15:56 be a reminder. They're letting God throw them out into his 15:59 harvest. And the beautiful thing here is 16:01 that it's involving people in ministry and in a mission who 16:06 probably would not have any other involvement, but it fits 16:10 their gift, it fits their interest and the amazing thing 16:16 is that only God, only our creator, knows what you're best 16:22 suited for. I mean, there are a lot of retired people who don't 16:30 feel that their life is as productive as it once was and 16:35 they don't realize, if they were praying the radical prayer, the 16:39 Lord might say to them, oh just a minute. Maybe you're even a 16:44 shut-in, but you can do praying for your pastor, you can be 16:48 standing in the gap and your prayer is powerful. That's as 16:53 much a radical prayer because it fits their situation and God, 16:58 almighty God, is the one who makes things happen. 17:01 You know, Ruthie, too the beautiful thing about what 17:05 Derek's talking about and what we're doing in church planting 17:08 is that a church needs to be prepared for its members to 17:12 pray the radical prayer and when they do... 17:15 How do you prepare them to do that? 17:17 First you have to explain what the teaching of the Bible is. 17:21 And people go OK, I don't know what's going to happen but I can 17:24 do that. But you have to be prepared as a 17:27 church community for what happens too. 17:29 Because he's going to throw you out. Exactly. 17:31 OK now explain what you mean by that. 17:32 Well for example, if Derek's church had not been open to a 17:36 12-step group and hosting that group and to hosting that and to 17:40 allow this person to express her full gifts as she's prayed that 17:44 radical prayer, it could have unfortunately shut down what she 17:47 wanted to do. Or what God wanted to do through 17:50 her. What God wanted to do through 17:51 her, exactly and so the group has to be open. 17:55 That's right. There can be some well-meaning people who for lack 17:59 of understanding of what the Lord really wants to do can 18:04 discourage or point you in the wrong direction and that's when 18:09 you really have to keep your eyes on the Lord and say Lord I 18:13 heard this call from you and I want to be obedient. Take care 18:17 of the distracters and just get us through this, but I really 18:21 appreciate what you've just said because we as a church family 18:25 have a responsibility not only to be willing to pray the 18:29 radical prayer, but to encourage one another in radical ministry. 18:33 And if we as pastors teach this concept, which I think is just a 18:38 fabulous concept (I do too) then we need to prepare our 18:41 congregations for the fact that some really radical things are 18:46 going to happen. That's right. You know and the 18:48 beautiful thing is that we're not saying well am I supposed to 18:53 do the same thing that you're doing. No the whole function of 18:57 this prayer is to say Lord of the harvest, I believe the 19:00 harvest is great and the laborers are few. I give you 19:03 permission to throw me out and he'll put you just where he 19:08 wants you to be. You mentioned an elderly, maybe some older 19:11 people. I have a couple that live quite a distance from our 19:16 church, retired ministry couple, and they said we want to do 19:20 something and I said well we've got lots of people through our 19:23 media ministry writing from all around the world. Some have 19:27 Bible questions. You can do that from anywhere, right, as long as 19:31 you have a computer and a connection to the internet. 19:33 And they got the answer. 19:34 And you know their faces lit up and the lady was a teacher and 19:38 the man was a pastor and they lit up and they said there's 19:41 something we could do, we can do that. And they said God we 19:44 want to give you permission. You see they had prayed that prayer 19:49 and God gave them something that they can do even from 30 miles 19:53 away. But you can't measure the good 19:55 that can come from that. I mean there are all kinds of 19:58 advantages now and benefits that people are going to have as a 20:02 result of that information. I know the pastor who when he 20:05 baptizes somebody will say to them, I have two questions for 20:10 you. One is why do you really want to be a baptized church 20:14 member? Why do you really want to join this church. And the 20:19 second one is what are you going to do that may be radical, what 20:25 are you going to do in ministry for the Lord, because we don't 20:28 encourage our members to just come in and be part of our 20:33 fellowship and settle down to a complacent, useless life. 20:37 Let me give you an example of what happens when a group prays 20:41 the radical prayer. Because when our 20 core group members, we 20:45 went through a core group development process for six 20:47 months where we just met and prayed and talked about what we 20:51 wanted to do and we decided we wanted to reach the community. 20:55 We wanted to reach people who were not currently active in a 20:59 church. And we realized that a Saturday evening service would 21:03 be more friendly to community people and so our group had to 21:07 kind of get out of its comfort zone, you know, recognize that 21:11 maybe it needed to do something different. And when you pray a 21:14 radical prayer and when you're focused on genuinely reaching 21:18 out to people, you'll do some things that are radical and 21:21 different in order to accomplish that. 21:23 You know, this pastor was talking to a newly baptized 21:28 member, and she had just been baptized. She was wheel chair 21:33 bound, she weighed between 250 and 300 pounds. She had been 21:38 hospitalized I think it was something like 21 times in the 21:42 past year. She was diabetic, she had a lot of health issues, and 21:46 she said well I notice that our church doesn't have a community 21:51 service center so I'm going to do that. Well they kind of 21:55 looked at each other on the staff and said I don't think so. 21:59 This is not going to happen. And she said watch me. I've got a 22:04 group of teenagers who are going to go out and collect things 22:08 after yard sales and we're going to make this happen. She 22:14 contacted food stores and restaurants and the beautiful 22:19 thing of it is she is no longer wheel chair bound, she's taken 22:24 off about 100 pounds of weight. Her doctor came to the pastor 22:28 and he said what have you done to Bonnie? Her life is totally 22:33 changed. And now he is studying the Bible and there have been 22:38 many baptisms as a result of this community service center. 22:42 (Wow, wow.) And really it's because this pastor is saying 22:46 I know you want to be a Christian, tell me why. I know 22:50 you want to be involved, tell me how. 22:53 I want to respond to this Ruthie because sometimes I think it's 22:57 maybe a little unfair to say what do you want to do. Maybe 23:00 what we need to say to them is will you give God permission to 23:03 show you what he wants you to do. That God will put that in 23:06 your heart because a lot of times people rush out and they 23:10 say God I've got this project, please bless it and it may not 23:14 be something God's asking us to do at all. 23:16 That's important. So the radical prayer is not 23:18 saying God I've got this thing, will you help it work. It is 23:22 saying God I give you permission to throw me out where you want 23:25 me to be to do what you want me to do and you have different 23:29 people in your church plant who are not doing the same thing. 23:32 Right, right. And what I didn't say, thank you 23:34 I appreciate that, what I didn't say is that he has been 23:39 preparing them for that answer because he implants in their 23:43 heart a desire to want to be involved and to do things and 23:48 to pray for God's leadership. 23:49 He's just waiting for them to give him permission because it 23:53 is going to radically change your lives. It's not church as 23:58 usual. It's not Christianity as usual. It's radical. It will 24:01 have sometimes wolves. You know you talked about people who are 24:05 trying to say it won't work or discourage you. Jesus called 24:08 them wolves in sheep's clothing, right. You know, sometimes it 24:12 may be even church folks who will say that's not a good time 24:16 time to have your service or whatever, but as I come back 24:20 to the text, if I would just learn to radically depend on the 24:24 Lord of the harvest. 24:25 The Lord has radical answers. 24:27 There's joy that comes, a joy when we join the his work. 24:30 Let me ask you, Derek, for the people who are watching right 24:33 now. You know, they may be thinking, well how do I do this? 24:37 You know, what form does this take? You know, who would you 24:41 suggest somebody who's convicted to do a radical prayer go about 24:44 it? You know, I had a cocaine addict 24:46 come to my office back last September. Ruthie you met him. 24:49 Kevin. He's been walking with Jesus now 24:51 almost a year and what is so beautiful he's not only been set 24:56 free but when we pray, he prays this radical prayer. And you say 25:00 well you better not do that. You better just wait until your life 25:05 is all fixed. You know what? He is the associate leader of this 25:09 Christian 12-step program today. (Ah that's wonderful.) So God 25:13 knows what we're going to do. I would just say believe the 25:17 word of Jesus. The harvest is great. Lord open my eyes to see 25:21 that in Moorpark or wherever I am around the world and then 25:25 recognize that he wants laborers and just give him 25:29 permission and he's going to show you. He's going to teach 25:31 you to trust him like never before and he's going to fill 25:34 your heart with joy. 25:35 The beauty of that example is that you don't have to wait 25:39 until you're at a certain point, you know. You can pray this 25:43 prayer... God takes us right where we are. 25:44 Isn't that awesome. And you know, the scriptural 25:48 example that comes to my mind is the demoniac. 25:51 Go back to your people. 25:52 Yes. And he had just been in chains. He had just been totally 25:57 out of control, controlled by the enemy and what did he know 26:01 of Christ. It was just a very short encounter and yet the Lord 26:05 said no don't follow me now. Tell the people what you know. 26:09 And so I think that is a wonderful example of how Jesus 26:13 himself will equip those who are obedient. 26:17 He threw him back out. He said I wanted to be thrown into the 26:20 boat and Jesus says no. If you'll give me permission I'm 26:25 going to throw you back to your people and you tell them what 26:28 the Lord has done for you. I'm sure he had challenges. He had 26:32 to radically depend on the Lord but he experienced joy as he did 26:35 what the Lord of the harvest asked him to do. 26:37 OK, I have a quick question and we just have a few more seconds, 26:41 just a quick comment from each one of you. How would you 26:46 encourage the person who's watching and saying that's me, 26:50 I'd like to get in on some of this action. I'd like to get in 26:53 on some of the radical experiences. 26:57 I think that they need to get to a quiet place. They need to be 27:00 alone, they need to fall on their knees and simply pray that 27:04 radical prayer and invite the Lord to guide them in their life 27:08 and take them HE wants to take them. 27:10 Amen. And I would tell them to go to the website 27:12 theradicalprayer. com where they can learn more. Because once you 27:17 understand, I think there are many people just ready to pray 27:22 that prayer. Amen. Let's pray. 27:24 Father in heaven, thank you for the power of your word and for 27:28 the radical prayer and for each person watching. Change us, we 27:31 ask in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much for being 27:36 with us today. You know I have a question for you. Who says 27:40 this can't be fun? Who says this can't be wonderful and exciting 27:45 because of the people that God will bring into your life. 27:48 Thanks for joining us today. May you experience radical prayer. |
Revised 2015-04-15