Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Julie Norton, Ken Norton
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000338
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00:30 Hello, I am Shelley Quinn
00:31 and welcome again to Issues and Answers. 00:34 We are so glad that you're tuning in 00:36 no matter where you are around the world. 00:38 And thank you, for this opportunity 00:40 to come into your home. 00:42 We have a very interesting program today. 00:43 We are gonna be talking about the crisis in the church. 00:47 And I wanted to begin this with a little passage 00:51 that comes from Matthew 24. 00:52 This is the book that is known as the little apocalyptic. 00:56 And Jesus is telling His disciples 00:59 signs of His coming. 01:01 In verse 6, He says, you'll hear wars, rumors of wars. 01:05 You're gonna see people that are frighten but the end is not yet. 01:09 verse 7, He's talking about how nation will rise against nation 01:12 and kingdom against kingdom, famines, earthquakes, 01:16 like the one that we've seen in China and all over. 01:20 And He goes on talking about the tribulation and how people-- 01:25 His people will be hated by all nations for His namesake. 01:30 And as He is coming down here 01:32 He says, that there is gonna be very many false prophets 01:35 that will rise up and deceive others. 01:38 He says in verse 12, 01:40 that "The love of the great body of people will grow cold 01:43 because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity." 01:47 But He says that "He who endures to the end will be saved." 01:51 And here's how we know when it's really the end. 01:55 The good news of the kingdom of the gospel 01:58 will be preached throughout the world, 02:00 Jesus says in verse 14, and then the end will come. 02:05 How close are we to the end? 02:08 Lots of wars, rumors of wars, 02:09 earthquakes, famines everywhere, 02:12 but is the gospel reaching the entire world? 02:16 Please help me to welcome Ken and Julie Norton. 02:19 And we are so glad that you are back in 3ABN again. 02:23 Thank you. We are too. 02:25 Now you all are with the Lay Institute for Evangelism. 02:30 This is a ministry operated by the Adventist-laymen's Services 02:34 and Industries the Seventh-day Adventist church, right? 02:36 That's correct. 02:37 How long have you been doing this? 02:39 Since August 2007. 02:41 So you have-- the Lord has entrusted 02:44 a great ministry to you. 02:46 Tell us just briefly what this ministry is about. 02:50 Because its called the Lay Institute for Evangelism, 02:53 our focus is on training lay people, equipping lay people 02:56 to be able to impact their communities for Christ 02:59 with all kinds of things, to taking online training 03:03 or programs that we have onsite there 03:05 but our emphasis is to really give the lay people 03:08 the tools they need to get the gospel message done 03:11 like it says in Matthew 24. 03:12 Amen. How are we doing? 03:14 I mean, not just in the Adventist church 03:16 but what is going on in the Christian church. 03:19 Let's focus on the United States right now. 03:23 I know we have viewers from around the world 03:25 but in the U.S., what's going on? 03:27 Well, I think a subtitle for maybe what we were doing today 03:30 would be called "the American Church in Crisis." 03:33 And I had never really thought of what was going on as a crisis 03:38 until I started doing some research. 03:40 You know, as we started looking into 03:42 how we can most effectively help lay people. 03:45 I started finding articles, I ran into an article on the web 03:49 call the American Church in Crisis. 03:51 And the author actually 03:53 has recently written a book that has that title. 03:57 But as I started to go through the statistics 03:59 I was so shocked at what's happening in the churches. 04:03 In a typical American church 04:05 the trend that's happened over the past, 04:08 especially 20 to 30 years that just--it's really alarming. 04:13 Than I think its some thing that we need to understand 04:15 and know how to try to reverse if possible. 04:18 What are some of the statistics? 04:20 Do you have those to share today? We do. 04:22 I think the first big one is that less than 20% of Americans 04:28 attend church on any given weekend. 04:30 Now, that shocks me, because when they do surveys 04:33 they'll say that, what, 04:34 73% or 83% of people claim to be Christian. 04:37 That's correct. 04:38 But less than 20% attend church. Yeah. 04:41 The reason is it's called the halo effect. 04:44 Pollster who get pollster to call people 04:47 and they don't want these pollster 04:50 or you always want to represent yourself 04:53 as being good and all that. 04:54 So they don't necessarily tell the absolute truth. 04:58 So when pollster contact them 05:00 they kind of pad their answers to somewhat. 05:03 So really that when the pollsters did their study 05:06 it was said 40% of Americans attend church 05:11 but in reality when they got out and they started 05:14 counting actual numbers it was around 17%. 05:18 Yeah. Oh, that's unbelievable. 05:19 About 17.7% is what it was in 2004. 05:21 And that's not every week. 05:23 That means they are attending-- what was it, 05:26 between one and seven times in an eight week period. 05:32 So it's not every week. So it's not even every week. 05:34 It's just people that--people that went to a service that week 05:39 but maybe not even particularly a church service. 05:42 I'm floored, I had no idea it would be that low. 05:44 Well, its shocking because-- 05:47 well, its not so shocking for pastors. 05:49 You know, because pastors, we look at our book 05:52 and I am a pastor before I was doing this. 05:54 And you look and you see, 05:55 you know, you have 600 on the books 05:57 and like my last church and then attendance was 200, 06:01 you know, 250. Right. 06:02 So you have these inflated numbers 06:04 and I think that's weird. 06:06 Some of the researchers said, you know, 06:07 we've been hearing this 40% for years but-- 06:10 and it stayed the same but yet we find that 06:13 it doesn't seem like that's a case. 06:14 So they surveyed 200,000 churches 06:17 in the United States, on the ground 06:19 and there are 330,000 churches total 06:23 in United States, that's rough figure. 06:26 But out of those 200,000 churches 06:28 that's what they came up with 06:29 that there is about 17.7% that were attending. 06:32 That just absolutely floors me. 06:34 So what are some of the other things 06:38 if the American church is-- 06:40 is this decline has it been recent 06:43 or is it just been a steady or what's going on? 06:46 Well, they actually started their research in the mid 80s 06:49 was when they started to put the numbers together. 06:51 And they were shocked to find that some of the numbers were-- 06:56 when they had solid numbers 06:58 they put them together, it came out with 1990. 07:02 It was about 20.4% of an attendance. 07:06 In 2000 it was 18.7%, 2004, where it was at 17.4%. 07:12 The projections is by 2010, it'll be somewhere in the 16%. 07:16 By 2050, they are expecting it to be between 10% and 12%. 07:22 Now are some of these people leaving their-- 07:27 the traditional typical church building and going into-- 07:32 we hear a lot about home churches and this type. 07:35 Is that part of that or do they consider this? 07:38 When they started to find out what are the-- 07:41 I mean, obviously 07:42 your first question is what's the core causes? 07:44 You know, why are people doing this? 07:47 They found out that there is significant house church moment 07:51 that's happening within the United States 07:54 or spiritual support groups. 07:56 Doesn't even have to be a house church 07:58 on Sunday morning, or on Saturday morning 08:00 it's something that happens during the week. 08:03 There's about, it's around 24%, 24.5% of Americans claim 08:09 that they go to some sort of meeting during the week 08:12 but they do not go to a traditional, 08:14 we call it typical church, typical church on the weekend. 08:18 But that's significant because that's a lot more 08:22 than the people, people have expected. 08:24 You know, they think, 08:25 we think when someone leaves church that, 08:28 oh, they are going golfing 08:29 instead of going to church or whatever. 08:30 But they are finding that people are looking for-- 08:33 they are spiritually hungry 08:35 but they are finding alternating forms 08:38 than the traditional, the typical church to say. 08:40 You know, when I first went into full time ministry 08:44 and the Lord bought me into the Sabbath truth, 08:46 well, I didn't know really about Adventism then so much. 08:51 So I didn't--I no longer fit into a regular church 08:55 and I had another television ministry. 08:57 And what happened was, people ended up inviting me 09:00 and I did five different home churches 09:03 in five different cities on a weekly basis. 09:06 They reached me different times. 09:08 And I did that for a couple of years 09:10 and it was amazing how that group kept growing 09:12 in each location but they would be considered 09:15 what you would call a home church, 09:17 you know, maybe 60 people 09:19 to getting together in a home setting. 09:21 And it was, it was interesting. 09:26 I mean, I couldn't really consider that my church, 09:28 I just was going out and teaching 09:30 but it was very interesting to see how hungry people are 09:35 and just not feeling like they were getting what they needed. 09:38 Why do you feel that-- 09:41 what do you feel that people want in a church? 09:46 Did the survey say anything about that? 09:49 They were saying that what you have spoken about 09:52 that they want intimacy, they want friendship, 09:55 they want someone that they can confide in. 09:58 Because the way technology is happening now 10:02 we can work from home 10:03 or our own little cubicle, our cell phones, 10:08 all the things that come along with a very good, 10:12 very efficient society it isolates us from each other. 10:18 So we think about wanting to get together with other people. 10:22 They really want that time to be, 10:24 a time where it's actually interacting, 10:27 they are not just sitting and observing. 10:29 So that's what they are finding that, 10:31 if they are not finding that in their typical church 10:34 that they are going and they are searching around 10:36 in their church hopping or group hopping 10:40 until they find something where they feel like if I am not there 10:43 they are gonna miss me, that group kind of. 10:48 And I think its also significant that 10:50 one of the stats that I heard recently was that, 10:54 let me get this right now, 60% of those 40 and younger 11:00 have never stepped into a church of any kind. 11:04 Sixty percent. 11:05 Sixty percent of those 40 and younger. 11:07 So we have, our generation 11:10 that's growing up seemingly distant, 11:14 you know, texting all the time and having little isolated lives 11:18 they are very hungry for the interaction 11:22 but they don't find it, even though they have never been, 11:27 you know, they never stepped in to see what its like. 11:30 The perception is that its many churches are cold, 11:33 they are not friendly, they hear from friends that have gone 11:37 and so they are staying away which isn't a good excuse. 11:40 But at the same time I think it let us recognize 11:44 that young people hunger for connection. 11:49 I mean, that's why MySpace 11:51 and some of these other things have just exploded. 11:53 Even though its still-- 11:54 And for those who may not know MySpace is a-- 11:59 Social networking website. Social network on the internet. 12:01 So, yes. Okay. 12:03 But what we have then is you got people 12:06 wanting this intimacy, wanting the fellowship, 12:11 wanting to participate and be connected. 12:13 And am I to take it that from this survey what they are saying 12:18 is that the typical church model 12:21 is not necessarily meeting that need? 12:24 Is that what you saying? 12:26 Get this, when they interviewed a lot of people 12:28 that had stopped going to church, 12:30 their number one reason why they stopped going to church 12:33 was because they wanted to be more spiritual. 12:36 Mercy. Yes. 12:38 Now that's frightening. That is frightening. 12:41 And so they-- that's why we're seeing the rise 12:44 in these intimate small groups of spiritual support groups, 12:48 house churches, they call them cell churches, 12:51 the different--little bit different type of model 12:53 but they're hungering for that intimacy 12:55 and so they are going to find-- you got a rise in this going on, 12:58 you've got decline, a quick decline 13:00 happening in our mainstream churches. 13:04 Six percent, this is another statistics, 13:06 only 6% of churches in the United States 13:09 were growing as of last year. 13:12 Most, what people call church growth 13:14 when number increase its actually 13:16 members transferring in and out, isn't it? 13:18 Well, it's not only members transferring in and out 13:20 but you have the population growth issue. 13:23 Because between--I think it was between 1990 and 2004, 13:28 the church attendance stayed the same 13:30 but population grew by about 48 million in the United Sates. 13:35 So you, when they put it all together 13:37 they realize, you know what, 13:38 there's only 6% of American churches that are growing, 13:41 94% of churches in our community are loosing ground. 13:46 They are loosing people, loosing ground. 13:48 Those two things that you are saying that are alarming. 13:49 Number one is that people don't feel when they go to church 13:54 that if they are gone they will be missed 13:56 and sometimes that's' very true in large churches. 13:59 You know, you have to have different groups setup. 14:02 We call them care group or TLC groups here 14:04 so that we won't-- the larger your church grows 14:07 the more you can overlook someone being absent. 14:11 But it's that they are not seeing the love 14:14 and the outreach at their own church. 14:18 But the other thing that's alarming is that 14:20 as they withdraw and go into the home churches, 14:24 now I think it's wonderful to have home groups underneath, 14:28 you know, care groups, 14:29 whatever you want to call them under the church structure 14:33 but as people come out from underneath 14:36 the umbrella of the "organize church" 14:40 which, you know, I had some people say, 14:42 "Oh, I don't like organize religion." 14:44 I say, well, God does. 14:45 I mean, He organized it, didn't he? That's right. 14:48 But as they come out sometimes they end up getting teachers 14:52 who may not know really what they are talking about 14:56 and you get all kinds of strange doctrines 14:58 that get began to be preached and taught. 15:04 So we know why this is happening, 15:08 what's the solution? What? 15:10 This is supposed to be "Issues and Answers," right? 15:12 But I am not sure I have any other good answers. 15:15 We've talked about some of the possible solutions. 15:20 I think first of all, this sound really bad 15:22 but for the first time, go with the crowd. 15:27 That mans, if people are wanting intimacy 15:31 and they are wanting the love 15:32 then if you are in a typical church setting 15:35 make that available somehow, either through small groups 15:39 or some type of dividing up your leadership 15:41 to be able to have true mutual membership care 15:45 and not just relying on the pastor 15:47 to do all the hospital visitation 15:49 or to do all the calling and making sure everybody is okay. 15:53 But it's a mutual care system. 15:55 So if that's what people are hungry for, 15:58 let's not close our eyes and just say, you know what, 16:00 well, it's just too bad. 16:01 They are not religious or they are not spiritual enough 16:03 and we are just gonna forget them. 16:04 No, provide something in your church 16:06 that allows for that. Amen. 16:09 And it might take change, 16:10 and it might feel uncomfortable at first because that-- 16:13 for those of us still in the typical church, 16:15 we feel comfortable in that setting but sometimes its-- 16:19 its time now to start thinking about those 16:22 that are not in our typical church. 16:24 And to sit down and to say, 16:27 "Hey, let's lay it all out 16:28 and what can we do to help nurture around." 16:34 You know, I think I am really excited about our church here-- 16:40 meets in our 3ABN worship center, 16:42 The Thompsonville church, it's a very loving church. 16:45 We have fellowship meals every Sabbath after church services. 16:51 And everyone's invited and particularly we encourage 16:55 the visitors to stay by 16:58 but a good number of people do stay. 17:01 It's a huge fellowship dinner and there's much interaction 17:05 and we usually don't leave church till, 17:07 I mean, the fellowship dinner 17:08 till maybe 3 o'clock in the afternoon. 17:10 So there's praying and elders get together, 17:13 and meet, you know, take people off 17:16 and have special prayers for them 17:18 and lots other praying going on as well. 17:21 But I've been to different churches 17:22 that instated different models like, you know, 17:25 one church had a very special lunch in 17:27 just for the visitors and people. 17:30 There's all kinds of things we can do. 17:32 We need to be creative but we need to be-- 17:34 make certain that when we go to church, 17:37 if we are a member of that church 17:39 that we are not just going be fed 17:41 but that we are going to be a blessing to someone else 17:44 and minister to someone else. 17:46 That's very important. 17:47 You know, especially when you get back into-- 17:52 you get back into the New Testament 17:54 looking at how members related to each other. 17:57 The way that, you know, there were no-- 18:00 some people don't know that 18:01 there were no actual church buildings 18:04 until the 300's and to the 400's. 18:06 Everything was house churches back then. 18:09 And some people say, well, that's because 18:11 they didn't have the money to be able to build churches 18:14 or maybe there was persecution, it wasn't convenient. 18:17 But you find that the reason why there were house churches 18:20 was it was based on the theology that Jesus setup of community. 18:25 It's based upon the fact that-- 18:27 in 1 John, John says-- 18:29 actually that would be a really good text. 18:30 Can we look that one up? Sure. 18:31 It's interesting in 1 John that John says 18:37 the reason why he's writing his letter 18:40 Was not for the people to be saved 18:42 or to have a better relate-- 18:43 or to have a knowledge of salvation 18:46 which many other places he says 18:48 that that's the case when he write that. 18:50 But it's interesting. Look into 1 John Chapter 1. 18:58 Find that scripture. 19:00 Will, you write this thing to, 19:01 I will, I'll find it right here. 19:03 Okay, verse 3. 19:05 It comes into verse, verse 1 he talks about, 19:08 "We are telling you what we've seen, 19:09 what we've heard, what we've looked upon 19:11 talking about Jesus the word of life." 19:13 Verse 2, "The life was manifested, 19:15 we have seen, we bear witness, 19:17 we declared to you that eternal life, 19:19 which was with the Father and was manifested to us." 19:22 Now look at what he says in verse 3, 19:23 "That which we have seen and heard, 19:26 we declare to you," why? 19:29 What does it say? You got it there? 19:30 "So that we declare to you that--" 19:32 I am in the, go ahead. 19:34 Yeah, okay. I'll get it. 19:35 Because I am in amplified, so. 19:37 Okay, all right. 19:38 "We declare to you what we have seen and heard 19:40 that you also may have fellowship with us, 19:44 and truly our fellowship is with the Father 19:47 and with His Son Jesus Christ." 19:49 That's significant because he is saying the whole reason, 19:53 the purpose that we've brought the gospel to you, 19:56 the purpose that we are sharing Jesus Christ with you 20:00 is to pull you into a very intimate and close fellowship 20:07 which John knew was what created true discipleship. 20:11 And you know the--what we would consider your typical church, 20:17 the traditional idea of a church should be this way though. 20:22 I mean, it should be where we've got 20:24 this type of fellowship in ministering going on. 20:27 But sadly, and I don't mind saying it 20:30 sadly many times that's not the case. 20:33 I mean, we've gone into-- to church as visitors 20:38 and maybe had only the greeters that would talk to us, 20:41 you know, and say welcome. 20:42 No one else and that's it. 20:45 Not only is it a mindset but I think sometimes 20:48 the way that we setup and we do church 20:51 has gone into a formal way that doesn't create intimacy. 20:57 And so I think for churches that have the good preaching 21:03 and have the good Sabbath school lessons 21:05 or the good Bible studies they do together in the church 21:08 there has to be something else 21:11 that pulls people into fellowship 21:14 because fellowship is where disciples are made. 21:18 I told my congregation before, 21:19 disciples are not made in pews, 21:22 disciples are made in living rooms, 21:24 disciples are made in a park, 21:26 disciples are made where you are able to get together. 21:29 And I am able to say, you know this week, 21:31 I was weak this week, 21:34 I fell into this same old temptation 21:37 that always comes, please pray for me. 21:39 And it creates-- let's pray together. 21:41 It creates a transparency and intimacy 21:43 and that's what people are hungering for. 21:46 Okay, let me ask this question because it begs to be asked 21:48 and there's someone out there who maybe confused. 21:51 Are we saying, let's do away with a typical church model 21:54 that we don't need a church building 21:55 and let's just go to home churches? 21:57 Or are we saying that the typical model of church 22:02 needs to quit relying on the pastor, 22:06 get the lay to involve and let's really have church 22:10 like He wants us to have church? 22:13 That's correct, that's correct. 22:15 I was thinking when he was talking about 22:16 sometimes we go to church and only the greeters greet us. 22:19 I think it's very important for each of us to have a part. 22:24 You now, I'm a greeter this week 22:26 or there is elders or there is deacon 22:28 however the church is setup but to really say, 22:30 even though I may not have a church job, 22:33 I am still very much a part of it. Amen. 22:36 So I am not just friendly when I am standing, 22:38 greeting out the door. 22:40 My job to come in and to see is there anyone else in need. 22:43 How can I come and serve other people? 22:46 And in that way I think if we all had that mindset 22:49 there wouldn't be any unfriendliness. 22:52 Everyone would feel a part of it. 22:54 So it's taking the role of, I am part of the church. 22:58 You know, my husband, 22:59 we are both very affable and amiable but he is so cute 23:04 because when we are in church 23:05 he's going to say hello to everyone that's at church. 23:08 I mean, he walks in sometimes 23:10 if we were running just a little before the music begins, 23:13 before Sabbath school 23:14 he's still gonna go up and down the aisle 23:16 and say hello to everybody. 23:17 So I got to make sure to get him in there nice and early 23:19 and he's just gonna do it. Yes. 23:21 I mean, that's who he is. 23:23 But we do need people to be-- and you know, 23:25 sometimes the very ones that are being quiet, 23:30 the reason they are quiet not reaching out 23:32 because they really need someone to reach out to them. 23:34 That's right. That's right. 23:35 All right, so we only have couple of minutes left. 23:38 What are some of the remedies for this? 23:43 Well, we have, at LIFE, 23:46 we've been working together with the Florida Conference 23:49 and talking about a lot of these issues. 23:51 Administration there is very open to saying, 23:53 you know what, let's get out into our urban areas 23:55 and find how we can reach people. 23:58 And one of the things that we are doing is 23:59 we are actually trying to start 24:01 a house church network in Adventism 24:04 that is fully faithful to the Adventist message, 24:06 fully under the denomination of the organization 24:09 but it safeguards against those kind of, 24:13 you know, heresies coming in or things like this. 24:16 And so we are experimenting with that. 24:18 Actually the other, one of our other staff members 24:22 Milton Adams is heading that up 24:24 and I believe he told me that 24:25 at the end of this month they are starting four groups. 24:28 They are gonna start four house churches 24:30 that are networked together and that will meet together 24:33 to do a corporate worship 24:35 but yet the basis of life is found in that small group. 24:40 And they are gonna experiment with it, you know. 24:43 So is this in replace of the mid week service 24:46 or how are they're doing this? 24:47 No, they will actually meet for church 24:48 on Sabbath morning in the homes. 24:51 They will actually meet on Sabbath morning in the homes 24:54 and we want to make sure that it is-- 24:58 that its something that is totally acceptable 25:00 to the conference and the denomination 25:02 and so forth that follows along 25:04 but you know, I think that we here in America, 25:07 when we hear about house churches, you know, 25:10 warning signs go off or alarms go off 25:12 but think about this a minute. 25:14 When you look at the New Testament, 25:16 what was the model? The model has to work. 25:18 Maybe it's not a typical model here in the States 25:21 but some other denominations are doing it 25:24 and its working very successfully. 25:26 So we thought let's not-- this has nothing to do 25:29 with doing away of anything. 25:31 It has to do, as Milton says, adding another hose 25:35 into the pool to full up the kingdom of God. 25:39 You know, if people don't want to go to traditional church 25:42 then let's provide something that-- 25:45 tradition I mean, a typical church. 25:46 Let's provide something that they can find that intimacy 25:49 and still be fully Seventh-day Adventist. 25:51 So we are working on some of those things. 25:53 I don't know if that's the whole, 25:56 its obviously, its a piece of it. 25:58 There's a part of me, I have to admit. 26:01 That there's almost that gives me a little interpretation 26:05 about that thinking because I feel 26:08 it so important to get together the corporate, 26:10 there is such an anointing 26:11 on the corporate worship of a large group. 26:15 I can see augmenting or supplementing the service 26:18 with that home service during the week or something. 26:23 So I mean, I was one of those. 26:26 You know, that's the thing, there's this variation 26:28 and we can't put everything into a little box sometimes. 26:34 You know, different kinds of things 26:36 will attract different people. 26:38 We just have to be faithful 26:39 to the word of God and to each other. 26:43 And the ultimate to me, the ultimate purpose is 26:45 Jesus said, go therefore and make disciples. 26:49 And it's obvious that we are not. 26:51 So if we want the end to come 26:52 we've got to be about our Father's praises. 26:55 Praise the Lord. All right. 26:56 That's right. Just thank you so much. 26:57 I can't believe how quickly the time has gone. 26:59 But Julie, thank you for being here. Thank you. 27:02 And you're always a pleasure to, 27:04 to just look on that smiling face. 27:06 And Ken, we thank you, for being here. Thank you. 27:09 And by the way, happy anniversary. 27:11 Fourteen years now. Thank you. 27:13 For those of you at home, I hope that the message 27:16 that you are taking away with today 27:18 is that we all have a personal responsibility 27:22 as the members of our congregation 27:24 to make visitors feel welcome, 27:27 to see that there is a healthy wholesome fellowship 27:30 that's going on and transpiring at our church. 27:34 And with small groups, perhaps after church 27:37 or mid week service or even seeing maybe what they-- 27:42 gonna be interesting to see how this model works. 27:44 But just know that God wants you to be involved 27:48 in ministering to others so that the gospel can reach the world 27:52 and Jesus Christ can return. Thank you. |
Revised 2014-12-17