Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Philip Dunham
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000336
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00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn
00:31 and welcome again to Issues and Answers. 00:34 We are glad that you joined us 00:35 and we got a guest today that is so much fun 00:37 and I just love him, he is precious. 00:39 But you are going to want to get a pen and a paper, 00:43 sit down and take some notes on today's program. 00:46 I relay believe that, we are going to be 00:48 talking about the issues of Assurance of Salvation. 00:52 Can you have assurance? 00:54 Let me read to you a Bible scripture 00:55 that I love it comes from 1 John 5:11, 12 01:00 "This is the testimony, God gave us eternal life, 01:06 and this life is in his Son. 01:09 He who possesses the Son has that life 01:12 he who does not possess the Son of God 01:15 does not have that life." 01:17 Let me invite you to help me 01:20 to welcome Pastor Philip Dunham from Salem, Oregon. 01:24 He is returning. 01:25 Pastor Phil, we are so glad that you are back. 01:27 It's such a need privilege to be here with you, Shelley. 01:30 You are so fulfilled with the joy of the Lord 01:33 and something tells me that this is the topic 01:37 that you are--its not just something tells me, 01:40 I know this is a topic you are well qualified to speak on. 01:44 Let me ask you a question just to kick this off. 01:47 Do you believe that we have to be just 01:48 a sinless perfect saint to make it to heaven? 01:53 You know, there are lot of people 01:54 who believe that way 01:56 and it causes such consternation and such a heavy load. 02:01 Now first of all you have to define saint. 02:05 What is a saint? 02:07 Well, the dictionary says, a person of exceptional holiness 02:12 and something in terms of being canonized 02:16 and specifically set apart and designated as a saint. 02:21 But there is another dictionary definition it says, 02:25 a member of any of various Christian groups. 02:29 We know what, that's more inline 02:32 with Paul's definition of saint. 02:35 Because of the 61 times that the word saint 02:39 is used in the New Testament, 02:42 Paul uses it 39 of those 61 times. 02:47 And he would address people in different churches 02:51 to the saints in emphasis to the saints in incoherent. 02:56 If you read the Book of Corinthians Shelley, 03:01 you know, that they weren't "Saints" 03:04 because they had so many problems in so many divisions. 03:08 So no where in his usage of this term 03:13 does he refer to a fully perfected person. 03:18 You know, I would-- I have to say something. 03:20 It occurs to me, I'm talking about 03:22 how well qualified you are, 03:24 I'm so excited to dive into the topic 03:26 that I didn't give you a proper introduction 03:29 for those of you who-- our viewers 03:31 who may not have met you before. 03:34 You were a pastor for how many years? 03:37 Well, 40 years. 03:38 40 years you pastored in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 03:41 Yes. And then you have been retired for 18 years 03:45 but you had 14 interim pastors in those 18 years. 03:50 And you written two books one called 'Sure Salvation,' 03:53 the other 'Blinded by the Light.' 03:55 You have also, been speaking, 03:58 making yourself available to speak at camp meetings 04:01 and seminars and you are returning again to 3ABN 04:05 to talk about this very important topic. 04:08 And do you know what this is been, Shelley? 04:11 Well, what's that? Holy fun. 04:13 Oh, praise the Lord. 04:14 Such a privilege to be able to share. Well. 04:17 Because when we get blessed, 04:20 we want to pass on the blessings. Amen. 04:22 And we are so glad that you are here to share with us. 04:25 But so we defined in that Paul 04:29 and the Bible clearly makes it obvious 04:33 that if you're in Christ you are considered a saint 04:36 as far as God is concerned in that terminology. 04:39 Peter said we are all members of a royal priesthood. Yes. 04:43 But now many people think of saint 04:46 in the idea of sinlessness and perfection. 04:51 And certainly we know that there are scriptures 04:56 in the Bible where God says, "Be thou holy for I am holy." 05:00 Oh, yes. 05:02 But, so let's talk about this sinlessness and perfection. 05:06 Do we have to be just absolutely perfect 05:09 to make it to heaven? 05:11 Do you know, actually 05:15 the Book of Hebrews says, with out holiness. 05:18 No one will see the Lord. No one will see the Lord. 05:21 Yes. But let me refer to thief on the cross. 05:25 In a matter of moments he found what made it 05:30 possible for him to be in the kingdom. 05:33 So if you have to be perfect, he found it. 05:36 If you have to be holy, he found it. 05:39 Where did he find it? 05:41 In the one who was hanging on the cross next to him, Jesus. 05:46 Yes, and, you know, we want to be its so difficult 05:48 and I just wanted to ask for you to stay with us 05:52 through this 30 minutes. 05:53 It's a very difficult topic to just address, 05:56 we are gonna be kind a skimming over the top of it 05:59 to really do justice in 30 minutes. 06:02 But we always want to remember the balance of this. 06:06 When God says, "Be thou holy for I am holy" 06:09 He is serious about this. 06:10 He is a holy God and He wants us to be Holy. 06:13 But we talked last time, how it's God who works in us 06:17 to do this process of sanctification. 06:21 Yet, many times in the Bible we are told 06:24 that we are to make every effort of He empowers us. 06:29 That's where we find I think for me, 06:33 and let me ask you this question. 06:35 When you really learned the simplicity of salvation, 06:38 you could have the assurance of salvation. 06:41 Did that not give you more hope for the judgment? 06:45 Oh, yes, I should say because otherwise, you know, 06:51 the judgment has some heavy-duty connotations. 06:55 Yes. When you think of judgment, 06:58 court, verdict, summons, subpoena, ticket 07:06 that's called negative connotation. 07:09 And one time I was going to hold 07:15 the week of prayer at a Christian academy. 07:20 And on the way I was driving alone, 07:26 totally harmless, undefiled 07:29 and just doing everything correctly 07:32 but there were red and blue lights 07:34 flashing in the rare view mirror. 07:38 It was in the evening, it was getting dark 07:41 I had passed through a little town of one store 07:46 and I passed somebody in an interception 07:50 but it was just like a country road. 07:52 And the policeman was very nice 07:58 and he gave me a very nice ticket. 08:00 And so all of that week I had this summons ticket, 08:06 judge hanging over me. 08:09 And when I returned after the week 08:12 I had to stop in St. Helena to see the judge. 08:17 When I went to see him he said, what do you do, sir? 08:25 And I said, gope, I'm a pastor. 08:29 And he said, for what church? 08:32 And I said well, Seventh-day Adventist 08:35 and we were right close to Pacific Union College. 08:40 And he said do you know so and so? 08:43 Well, yes, I do. Well do you know so and so? 08:46 And I knew all of the so and so's that he mentioned to. 08:50 All for too it is for you? 08:51 Yes, it was very comforting. 08:54 And we talked and he said you know pastor, 08:58 I have never given a pastor a ticket yet. 09:02 And I'm not going to start today. 09:04 Oh, praise God. 09:06 But he said, I just have one thing 09:07 I want to tell you before you leave. 09:10 Go and sin no more. 09:13 A judge with a sense of humor. 09:15 Yes, that was really need and I want to tell you 09:17 I was under grace and I was thankful 09:21 that this is a picture of how God treats us. 09:26 So in essence what we were saying, 09:28 when we are talking about 09:29 assurance of salvation there is nothing. 09:32 We have to believe what the Bible tells us that, 09:34 "Salvation is by grace through faith." 09:36 That's Ephesians 2:8-10. 09:39 There is nothing that we can do, 09:41 no works that we can boast of that are gonna save us. 09:44 And as we read in 1 John 5:11, 12 09:48 that God says we can have-- this is His testimony, 09:52 if you have the son you have life. 09:55 So the hope of our judgment is first of all knowing 09:59 that Jesus is our advocate, that He is the judge, 10:02 that He is the one who died for us, 10:05 He is the one working in us 10:06 to live and to act according to His good pleasure. 10:10 Yet, what can we do? 10:13 We got this great hope but at the same time 10:16 its saying, "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." 10:18 Well, He is our holiness or sanctification, 10:20 Yes. 1 Corinthians 1:30 says. 10:23 But still what about living the cleansed life? 10:28 Because that is important. 10:30 Yes, and the Lord wants to us to do that 10:34 and when we accept Him, and when He lives in us 10:37 that's the life that we can live. 10:40 So, what you are saying is that when Christ is-- 10:44 when you are abiding in Christ 10:45 and He is so abiding in you, 10:46 His power the power of His spirit, 10:48 Christ in his our hope of glory that's what changes us. 10:53 Amen. All right. 10:54 Yes, it is. I loved it when I heard somebody say one time 11:01 there I was going down the street, 11:04 walking down the street 11:05 just doing what comes spiritually. 11:09 And I really enjoyed that and the person-- 11:12 Good point on words. In whom Christ abides. 11:16 He just goes around doing what comes spiritually. 11:19 That's good, that's good. Isn't that beautiful? 11:21 Instead of doing what comes naturally, 11:22 that was doing what comes spiritually. 11:25 How to live the cleanse life, Shelley? 11:28 Let me suggest something's to our viewers today. 11:33 Some very simple things. 11:35 Go by yourself ask the Holy Spirit 11:40 to reveal every sin that there might be in your life. 11:47 When he reveals it to you write it down. 11:53 Write it down on a piece of paper. 11:56 When you are through and the Holy Spirit 11:59 isn't reviling any other point 12:01 that might be outside of God's will 12:04 or outside of the plan of the scripture. 12:08 At that point you confess it. 12:11 And confession means agreeing with the Holy Spirit 12:16 that the thing he is pointed out, 12:18 yes, you are right I am wrong and purposing not do it again. 12:26 This is a part of the confession. 12:28 And then the next step is claiming 1 John 1:9. Amen. 12:34 "If we confess our sins, 12:36 he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." 12:40 And I am so glad that doesn't stop there, 12:43 "And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 12:47 So if you have asked the Holy Spirit to reveal 12:52 plague spots in your character 12:55 and he has pointed them out he is the divine pointer outer. 13:01 And then I confessed and I have claimed 1 John 1:9 13:08 when somebody says, yes pastor, 13:10 but what about after that? 13:12 What if I do something wrong? What if I sin again? 13:16 Well, you know what you do, spiritual breathing. 13:21 Well, what's that? 13:23 Well, in breathing you exhale and you inhale. 13:27 Exhaling in the Christian walk 13:30 in the cleanse life is confession. 13:35 Inhaling is claiming 1 John 1:9. That's good. 13:41 So, you confess and you breathe 13:44 in the beautiful fragrance of 1 John 1:9. 13:49 And you know we always-- we normally think of-- 13:52 or at least how I teach exhaling is prayer 13:55 and inhaling is the spirit of the word the spirit of God 14:01 and that's what you have just said. 14:02 You know, so-- Yeah. 14:04 Now, let me ask you this question 14:06 because when we are recognizing ourselves 14:11 that we cannot save ourself, 14:13 that we are totally depended upon God, 14:16 it takes that surrender that get to that point of surrendering. 14:20 I have been through the process 14:22 that you are talking about asking God. 14:24 Actually it came when I went back to college 14:27 at the age of 28 years old 14:29 and I was praying one night in my room, 14:31 and I was reading the Bible and I was-- 14:34 I read where Jesus told the rich young ruler 14:38 why do you call me good? 14:40 Only God is good. 14:42 And I thought, well wait a minute. 14:44 Jesus is God, why would he say that? 14:46 And then he began to explain to me that He was, 14:51 I began to understand 14:52 that Jesus was testing this man's motivation. 14:55 But I said well, now Lord, 14:56 what do you mean that only God is good? 14:58 Everybody has always told me what a good girl I was. 15:01 And I said if I've not been good all my life 15:03 then I need You to show me. 15:06 Pastor Phil, that was 10 o'clock 15:10 in the evening when I began to pray that way. 15:13 I got down from the bed where I was reading, 15:15 I got on my knees and the Lord was revealing things to me. 15:18 Pretty soon I was on my face 15:20 before the Lord as He revealed just wrong motivations not-- 15:25 I mean just things that sometimes 15:26 you do good works to make yourself 15:28 look good or something. 15:29 Yes, and they are tainted with self. 15:31 Yes and so from 10 o'clock in the morning to 6-- 15:35 oh, 10 o'clock in the evening till 6 o'clock in the morning, 15:38 I think that was my time of true conversion 15:43 because the Lord showed me so much. 15:46 Now we don't want people to settle in 15:49 and just get hung up on mortifying the flesh, 15:53 it's you got have that co-execution. 15:55 Yes. Now, but once you get to that point 16:00 of accepting this assurance of salvation, 16:03 do you think that in any way some people suggest 16:06 that it will make you less likely to obey the Lord? 16:10 That less likely to keep His commandments 16:13 if you have that, do you agree with that? 16:15 There is some who feel that way 16:18 and there are fearfully that if you bath in the grace of God, 16:23 that some how you become proud 16:25 or that His word doesn't make any difference 16:28 or His love doesn't make any difference 16:31 or His will doesn't make any difference 16:33 because I'm saved and praise God and hallelujah 16:38 and I don't have to worry about lifestyle 16:41 or any of those things that too is a deception because if, 16:48 if I sin and I confess it and I ask for forgiveness 16:55 but I really like what I just did. 16:59 I really enjoy doing what I just did. 17:01 You enjoy this and didn't have godly joy. Right. 17:04 And what if, what if really like it 17:07 and I want to continue committing it 17:10 and confessing it and practicing the aggressive. 17:16 I don't think we will have forgiveness 17:18 because we can't live that way. 17:20 When we give ourselves to Him, 17:24 He changes our direction. 17:27 You know, you just said something 17:29 that really correct with me. 17:30 You can confess and not receive His forgiveness 17:34 and cleansing of all unrighteousness 17:35 because if you confess and think its just cheap grace, 17:39 I had it and it went out of me. 17:41 It's like Acts 5:31, 32 says that, 17:47 Jesus is the one who is at the right hand 17:49 at the throne of his Father, who gives forgiveness 17:52 and gives us repentance. 17:54 He grants us repentance. 17:56 When we receive His forgiveness 17:58 and this cleansing of unrighteousness, 18:00 it's by His power, He is turning us around 18:02 not to continue to repeat that. 18:04 Not that we will ever fall again 18:06 or stumble in that area 18:07 but that He takes that desire from us. 18:10 Would you agree? Yes, you definitetly. 18:12 And it would be presumption to say 18:15 that after I have confessed 18:17 and after I have asked for forgiveness 18:19 and thank the Lord for what He has given 18:21 it would be presumptuous to think that I can continue 18:25 living in the same old way. 18:28 Now so when someone says, 18:30 than that if you have assurance of salvation 18:32 then it may be you won't obey as well. 18:35 Would you just agree with the idea that Jesus said, 18:38 "If you love me you will obey my commandments." 18:41 Yes. And what 1 John 2:3, 4 says that, 18:45 anyone who says that they are abides in Christ 18:47 and keep not his commandments are liars. 18:49 Yes. So then understanding 18:53 and having assurance of salvation 18:54 that makes us more prone by love 18:59 to be motivated to do the right thing for God. 19:02 And you mentioned just the motivation, its love. 19:07 When I give myself to Him, 19:09 when I accept His forgiveness, 19:11 when I received His grace, 19:15 that doesn't give me a sinning license. 19:18 Exactly. It makes me-- 19:20 because of my love to Him 19:22 and my appreciation of what He has done for me, 19:26 it makes me want to do His will, to be close to Him, 19:31 to please--we want to please those we love. 19:35 Amen, Amen. And that's the basis of the Christian life. 19:40 So, when Paul told Timothy he says that, 19:45 if we are faithless he is faithful 19:47 and some people take that 19:49 and they make it sound like well, 19:52 His grace is all I need. It's cheap grace. 19:56 It's kind of like, He is gonna be faithful to me 20:00 even when I'm faithless. 20:01 But that's not what the scripture says. 20:03 Because he goes on and he says, that if we deny Him, 20:06 He will also deny us. Yes. 20:08 And if we denying Him in our actions, if we-- 20:11 I mean there is no such thing 20:13 as cheap grace do you believe? 20:15 You know, what I believe that's a terrible misnomer. Yes. 20:19 Because the only kind of grace there is, is amazing 20:24 and it's the most expensive grace in the universe. 20:29 So I know what people say 20:31 when they talk about cheap grace. 20:33 Its saying I'm saved and then living like the devil. 20:37 And those two don't go together. 20:41 Not at all because by grace 20:42 we are given the gift of Jesus Christ, 20:45 the gift to the Holy Spirit, the gift to His word. Amen. 20:48 So there is no end and the cost for that grace 20:52 is blood of Jesus Christ. 20:55 So there is nothing cheap about grace. 20:58 What, when we are looking at the assurance of salvation 21:03 we touched a little bit about sure salvation last time. 21:07 We are talking about assurance of salvation. Yes. 21:10 What are some of your favorite scriptures? 21:12 Do you have some scriptures on assurance of salvation 21:15 that you would like to share with us? 21:17 Because I do know that a lot of this 21:22 has to do with understanding 21:24 sanctification and justification. 21:26 So why don't you share some scriptures. 21:28 Yes, yes, well let me share few scriptures. 21:30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, 21:35 and they follow me and I give them eternal life, 21:40 and they shall never perish, 21:44 neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand." 21:48 That's so beautiful the only time 21:52 that we can be taken out of the hand of Jesus 21:55 is if we choose to leave Him. 21:58 Exactly, no one can take you away from Him 22:00 but He doesn't take your choice away. 22:02 You could still jump out. 22:04 But if we come and we keep coming 22:09 we are going to end up in the kingdom. Amen. 22:11 With God and Jesus forever and-- 22:14 loved ones who have believed in Christ 22:17 and the whole family be saved and the angels 22:20 if we come and we keep coming. 22:23 Now what is the scripture reference for someone 22:25 who might be wanting to write that down? 22:27 Yes, John 10:27, 28 and John 17:3. 22:34 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, 22:38 the only true God, and Jesus Christ 22:42 whom You have sent." 22:44 And there are so many I love Ephesians 1:6. 22:49 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, 22:53 by which he has made us accepted in the beloved." 22:59 And Shelley, this is the only way 23:01 that any person on this planet can be accepted. 23:07 You get accepted in the beloved. 23:09 You don't get accepted because of what you are. 23:13 You get accepted because of what He is. 23:16 You don't get accepted because what you have done, 23:20 you get accepted because of what He has done. 23:23 There is no way to save ourself is what you are saying. 23:26 Now. Right. It's just we understand what He offers. 23:30 Let me ask you this though, 23:31 if we are looking at assurance of salvation. 23:34 We will comeback to few more promises 23:36 but it is important to live that cleanse life 23:40 because when Christ is in you, you are going to be cleansed 23:44 and so who does the work of sanctification, 23:47 lets look at that for just a moment 23:49 because that cleansing part of us, 23:52 He says, "He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 23:55 Well, that tells us right there that God is at work, isn't He? 23:58 Yes, He is. So talk to us about that sanctifying work. 24:04 Jesus said, "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, 24:09 that they also might be sanctified by the truth." 24:14 And then in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 24:19 there is a verse that many believers 24:23 that I have known quote, 24:25 and it's kind of truthful in a way. 24:28 And they read it, "Now may the God of peace 24:31 himself sanctify you completely, may your whole spirit, 24:37 soul and body be preserved blameless 24:41 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 24:44 And they stop there and don't read the next scripture. 24:46 They don't read the next scripture, Shelley. I know. 24:49 See we are of one mind now you see, 24:52 you know what the next scripture is. 24:53 I do. "He who calls you is faithful, 24:58 who also will do it." 25:00 Yes. He is the one who does the sanctifying. 25:03 Amen, one of my favorite, 25:05 that's one of my favorite passages of scripture. 25:07 Yes, I love it. Absolutely. 25:10 They rejoice in it. 25:11 And you know, Jesus said in John 17:17 25:14 "Sanctify them by" your word-- you know "your truth." 25:18 Your word is truth. Yes. 25:19 So, He sanctifies us through the word, 25:22 He sanctifies us through the Holy Sprit. 25:24 It's His work. Absolutely. 25:27 Yeah, my cooperation, His work. 25:31 My believing, His work. 25:34 Pastor Phil, when you first learned-- 25:37 how old are you when you learned really 25:39 and understood the assurance of salvation? 25:43 Oh, dear, I was probably in my 40's early 40's. 25:47 I think same thing for me. 25:49 Is your experience been my like mine 25:51 that I found that it was easier to obey? 25:55 I had a heart to obey for the Lord 25:57 when I had assurance of salvation. 25:59 Oh, yes, you know what it means? 26:02 Rest, relief the burden loads off the back. 26:08 The praise comes, the rejoicing comes, 26:13 the peace comes, yes indeed. 26:18 So we look into this role and see polar opposites 26:21 people who think there is nothing that they need to do, 26:24 they don't cooperate with the Lord, 26:26 and they just take it thinking that grace is cheap 26:28 and they don't have to do anything, that's not true. 26:31 Then we see people over here 26:33 who think even though they saved, 26:35 they know they are saved by grace through faith. 26:37 They are still are trying to work their way to heaven. 26:39 That's not true, but we know that God has given us assurance. 26:43 You know, I can't believe our time is all gone again. 26:46 It went by way too fast. 26:49 But I want to thank you so much for being here 26:52 we come back again. 26:53 You are so welcome and it's a privilege to be here 26:55 and I will come back. 26:56 I will-- I just love you. 26:58 I hope your wife Evelyn, 27:00 if she understands this is the sisterly love in the Lord. 27:03 Yes. You know, we began today talking about 1 John 5:11, 12 27:10 where the Bible says that, 27:11 "This is the testimony, God gave us eternal life, 27:16 and this life is in his Son, 27:18 He who possesses the Son has that life, 27:20 he who does not possess the Son of God 27:23 does not have that life." 27:24 I want you to go back and read 1 John 5:10. 27:28 Because He is telling us in 1 John 5:10 27:31 that if we disregard this testimony 27:34 we are calling God a liar. 27:37 God want you to know, 27:39 you may have been in church all of your life 27:41 and you may still not have assurance of salvation. 27:45 God want you to know 27:46 that if you are in Christ, you are saved. 27:49 Thank you, so much for joining us 27:51 and I hope you'll be blessed by this program. |
Revised 2014-12-17