Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Derry James
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000333
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00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn
00:31 and welcome again to "Issues and Answers." 00:34 We are so glad that you are taking this time 00:36 out of your daily schedule 00:37 to sit down and listen to Christian issues 00:41 and find out biblical answers. 00:43 Today we are going to be talking about something 00:45 we all need to pay attention to 00:47 and that is spiritual consistency. 00:50 Being consistent in the way that we walk 00:54 and conduct ourselves 00:55 and you know, Peter had something to say 00:57 about this in 1 Peter 1:13. 01:01 He says, "Brace up your minds, be sober, 01:04 set your hope unchangeably 01:07 on the grace that is coming to you 01:09 when Jesus Christ is revealed. 01:12 Live as children of obedience to God, 01:16 do not conform yourselves to the evil desires 01:18 that governed you in your former ignorance 01:21 when you did not know the requirements of the Gospel. 01:24 But as the one who called you is holy, 01:28 you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct, 01:32 in all your manner of living, for it is written." 01:36 And now he is quoting God. 01:39 "You shall be holy for I am holy." 01:42 You know, sometimes that scares us 01:43 this idea of holiness 01:45 but I want you to know that when God commands us 01:48 to be holy He is not saying, 01:50 all right, figure it out on yourself on you own. 01:53 He is saying I'll do this for you, 01:55 if you just surrender control of your life to Me. 01:58 Because everything that God calls us to be, 02:01 He causes us to be, 02:02 He empowers us to do these things 02:05 as we learn how to walk in His spirit. 02:09 And returning to us today 02:11 we are excited to have a very special guest, 02:13 a friend of 3ABN and personal friend back. 02:16 Her name is Derry James 02:18 and Derry has a doctorate of ministry. 02:20 She is a Christian counselor and she is also a chaplain 02:25 for the Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital 02:28 in Grass Valley, California. 02:31 I don't know why I want to say Grass something else 02:33 but, Grass Valley. 02:36 Thank you for coming back, Derry. 02:38 Well, it's always wonderful to be here 02:40 and everything is so glorious. 02:42 The weather is just beautiful today, isn't it? 02:44 It is a beautiful and we are pleased to see that. 02:47 Now we are talking-- 02:50 you have been here to 3ABN on a number of occasions. 02:53 Something that I have noticed about your ministry 02:56 is you always like to bring back when you are talking 03:00 whatever the topic is 03:02 about how to reflect Jesus in our daily life. 03:06 And today, your topic 03:07 that you have chosen is "Spiritual Consistency." 03:10 So let's just tell our audience what we are talking about. 03:14 Okay, Shelley, with the all the different people 03:18 that I interact with 03:20 its just really easy to pick on the fact that-- 03:24 we have a lot of people 03:25 they think they have to be people pleasers. 03:28 And matter of fact there is a promise for that 03:31 I will share in just a minute. 03:32 But, it's a little disconcerting people 03:37 that people feel like they have to be one way one place 03:40 and another way another place 03:42 I kind of call it the chameleon effect 03:45 that whoever they are with, that's who they are. 03:48 If they were with this particular person 03:50 they like these things or they will go do these things 03:53 or they will eat these things or act this way, 03:56 or use a particular language. 03:58 And with other people they are little more dignified 04:01 or they are little more spiritual. 04:04 And so who are they really? 04:07 You know, I wonder if they know who they really are 04:11 because they change colors with whoever they are with. 04:15 To me as I as I hear their stories, 04:19 as I hear their heartaches, 04:21 I can't help but think of their promise in Galatians 1:10 04:24 when I give that promise back to God. 04:27 I say, Father, help me not to be a people pleaser 04:31 but a servant of the living God. Exactly. 04:33 And if we are busy 04:36 trying to get people to give us an endorsement 04:40 on how we are with them all the time 04:42 then we are living for people, we are not living for Jesus. 04:45 And that's, I think when you agree 04:47 that the reason most people do this 04:49 because they really don't know 04:50 who they are in Christ Jesus. Absolutely. 04:52 They don't have that sense of identity 04:55 of being His child as, 04:57 you know, daughter or son of God 05:00 and so what they do often is they compromise. 05:03 And again I think, you know, always I have noticing lately 05:07 the Lord showed me something many years ago 05:09 and I used to teach on it 05:10 and I haven't thought about it lately 05:12 but that there is either we are rooted 05:15 and grounded in the love of God 05:17 and that's our tap root 05:18 from which all the rest of these roots go 05:20 or we are rooted and grounded in insecurity 05:24 and out of this insecurity 05:26 actually prides even a form of insecurity. 05:29 So, its people who are insecure 05:31 that they feel that they have to be 05:34 they want people to like them, 05:35 they don't want anyone to dislike them 05:37 so, they just as you said become people pleasers. 05:42 I would like to talk in a few minutes 05:45 a little more about who we are in Christ. 05:47 But, I would like to, 05:48 to look at a little different prospective as well 05:50 about this consistency issue 05:52 because its not only a matter of the chameleon effect, 05:57 its a matter of people that are one thing at home 06:01 and they are another thing 06:02 once they just walk outside the door. 06:04 And this is really distressing 06:06 and this causes a lot of marital conflict. 06:09 This is the kind of thing that causes our children 06:12 to walk out the door and never want to come back. 06:15 It's thing that cause children not to want to go to church. 06:18 Exactly, exactly. 06:21 So we have people that when they are out in the world 06:23 they are wonderful. Everybody loves them. 06:27 They would do anything for anybody 06:30 and they are pleasant and they are patience 06:34 and they come home and then what happens, 06:38 they are abusive to their spouse 06:41 verbally not even being physically. 06:44 But they are whole different person. 06:46 They can't be bothered with the children, 06:48 they are critical and condemning 06:50 of everything that happens in the house 06:52 or they come home and they are queen 06:54 or the king and expect to be weighted on there. 06:57 They certainly don't lift a figure there 06:59 they are busy helping everyone else 07:01 and getting kudos for it. 07:04 You know, those are the kinds of things 07:05 that are so distressing to me 07:07 that give our children particularly this mixed message. 07:10 And these are kind of a things 07:11 that happen far too often and that's it. 07:14 Yes, yes and sometimes from our spiritual leaders 07:17 that are suppose to be consistent and good examples. 07:20 But sometimes I say this, 07:23 and I don't mean any offence to anyone 07:25 but I believe that some people choose ministry 07:29 as a carrier path rather than as a calling from the Lord, 07:33 and there are--just because someone is standing in a pulpit 07:35 doesn't mean that they have a converted heart. 07:38 That's right. 07:39 You know our homes, our homes should be our sanctuary. Amen. 07:43 And it's true that when we go out into the world 07:46 we want to our best foot right forward. 07:48 You know, but we-- 07:50 we are to cherish the people on our home. 07:53 And to me, we are to be even better there. 07:57 Not that we can't let our hair down, 07:58 I don't mean that 08:00 but we need to be who we are wherever we are. 08:03 That kind of goes back to 08:05 I think I have talked to you about it before, 08:07 I don't know whether I have done it here on the show. 08:09 But how we get in this right sometimes 08:11 and we put on these mask when we go out the door 08:15 and we try to be someone who are not. 08:17 Until the older we get the more form fitting that is 08:19 so, are we becoming like the mask 08:21 or is the mask becoming like us. 08:24 That's a good point. 08:25 So, my point is, 08:28 you know, we just need to know who we are in Jesus. 08:31 We need to be able to not only embrace 08:34 who we are in Jesus 08:35 but embrace who He made us to be. 08:38 I like to say Lord, fulfill your destiny for me, 08:43 in me and through me. 08:45 Don't I don't want to worry about being someone else 08:48 or doing what some else is chosen to do 08:51 but with all the gifts and talent you have given me, 08:53 I'm not help me to be 08:55 way you want me to be for you. Amen. 08:58 And when you surrender that, 09:00 when you ask Jesus to do that for you, 09:03 when you want to fulfill His purpose for you, 09:07 it really gives you a sense of peace. 09:09 You are not striving to become someone else. 09:13 You are not measuring yourself against someone else. 09:16 You are not frustrated with life 09:18 and having to be one person in one place 09:20 and one person in another place. 09:22 It isn't-- it isn't an issue. 09:25 It's just Jesus who am I in you 09:28 and what--what do you want me to be for You. 09:30 And Derry, you probably touched on-- 09:33 I mean, that word peace is almost a touch down. 09:36 It's something that so many people 09:39 and I'm sure there is many of you at home 09:41 who are watching are may be listening in your car 09:44 that to actually attain peace 09:49 to be filled with peace 09:50 is something that they never known 09:53 and that they would give any amount of money 09:56 that they have been able to accumulate to achieve. 10:00 Peace is something that 10:01 it's difficult to live a happy life without it. 10:04 But, when we have peace 10:07 we can be an inspiration almost anywhere we are. 10:09 Absolutely. 10:10 When we have peace, 10:11 when we are more opt to treat each other 10:13 with honor and respect its--its gold. 10:18 It's Gold. 10:21 I would like to, I would like to tell you a couple of stories, 10:23 you know, I am about stories Shelley, 10:25 while I'm with you. 10:26 But how we are and the consistency 10:31 in our Christianity is a witness and it's a silent witness 10:37 or it can be a very, very picturesque witness. 10:40 For example, we had a pastor in our community 10:44 who everyone respected in the pulpit 10:49 but he had a really difficult personal life 10:52 and wasn't very good to his family. 10:54 But that not only was with the family 10:56 its build over the community, 10:57 when he would walk into the bank 10:59 and there would be a-- an error in his account 11:02 and he would verbally trash the tellers. 11:06 Now what kind of a witness is that for our Lord? 11:11 Or think of the person 11:13 that has the sign on the back of their car, 11:15 that says, live for Jesus 11:18 and then their honking their horn 11:20 and they are telling off the other drivers 11:22 and this a true story of a man that was doing this 11:26 and cursing out a lady and the officer called him over, 11:31 handcuffed him and pulled him in to jail. 11:34 Because he thought he has stolen the car that he had 11:37 because it said living for Jesus. 11:40 His actions were so-- so conflicting with the message 11:44 that he was giving. 11:45 Hope that was a wake-up call for him. 11:47 I hope it was a wake-up call for him as well. 11:50 So I think that we just sometimes forget 11:54 that we are observed and how we are living life. 12:00 I recently was speaking in New Jersey, 12:03 and I want to say hello to all of my brothers 12:06 and sisters in New Jersey. 12:08 And it was such a blessing to me 12:10 and I'm not tooting my own horn 12:13 but this was in area in which 12:14 they very few people receive 3ABN 12:18 but they were looking for woman speaker 12:20 and they had someone new-- 12:22 someone who worked here at 3ABN not any ministration. 12:26 And they said, do you know any good women speakers? 12:29 And when they-- he shared my name. 12:32 And he said--they said well, what does she like? 12:35 And he said well let me put it this way. 12:37 She walks the talk, 12:39 she walks out what she preaches. Oh, praise Lord. 12:42 And when she-- I didn't know this story 12:44 till she introduced me 12:45 and I thought oh, Lord Jesus, thank you, so much 12:49 because there is not a higher compliment than that. 12:52 That's true and we never know, 12:55 who knows what about is. 12:56 In fact that just makes me to think of another story. 12:59 I had--recently had a friend that came over 13:01 and she walks her dog on my property. 13:04 And she was walking her dog 13:06 it scared a deer out from under the deck 13:09 and broke through the ladders work 13:11 and she came to the down she said, I'm sorry 13:13 but we have frighten this. 13:14 I think this deer has a broken neck. 13:17 And I went outside to check, 13:19 the deer was down in the back hill 13:21 and I have this thing I do Shelley, 13:25 that when a little animal is hurt, 13:27 I seem Jesus loves me, 13:28 because I believe that they know the name of Jesus. 13:30 And usually if a little bird is hurt they calm right down. 13:33 Well, the deer was too frightened to calm down. 13:35 But, the little deer had fallen over 13:38 and she had just-- she had tumbled, 13:42 her legs were up in the air 13:44 and she was there, she was broken neck, 13:47 she couldn't lift her head when I came to meet her. 13:49 It was a broken neck. 13:51 And just all of this air 13:53 she was hissing at me and scared. 13:55 Couldn't me to protect herself and so I finally went away. 13:59 Well, it looked to me like 14:01 we were gonna have shoot the deer 14:02 so she didn't suffer. 14:04 So I called the sheriffs department 14:06 and waited and waited and waited for them to come out. 14:09 And after several hours I called and said you know, 14:12 I know you are busy but could you just give me a idea 14:15 of when you will be out. 14:17 And they said oh, they already been out. 14:19 And I said really, I have my door open, 14:20 I have been watching, I haven't seen anybody. 14:22 Oh, yeah, they came out 14:23 and went over to the deer and the deer ran away. 14:26 And I said, you know, I didn't even tell where the deer was. 14:29 I think you may have gone to the wrong place. 14:31 You know, the deer is down, clear down in my back hill 14:34 and he said no I think they were there. 14:37 And I said, you know, I will go check 14:38 and I will call you back. 14:40 Well, sure enough the deer was gone 14:41 and this was like three hours later 14:43 and that deer had been there and we knew it could not move. 14:46 So I called the sheriff back and I said okay, I don't know 14:49 what happened but the deer is gone. 14:52 And he said Derry, did you pray? 14:55 And I thought, whom I talking to? 14:57 You know, whom I talking to? 15:00 So, you know, our reputation does proceed us. Amen, amen. 15:04 And we really need to be careful 15:06 how we live life especially if we love Jesus 15:09 and we're Christians and we are carrying that name. 15:12 Then it becomes more critical 15:14 who we are and the way we are consistent 15:17 and how we live life. 15:18 So who are we in Christ? 15:20 That's a question, who are we in Christ? 15:22 Every thing He says we are. 15:24 We can walk in the authority 15:26 of the heirs of the king. Exactly. 15:28 And scripture says in Galatians, 15:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, 15:33 and heirs according to the promise." 15:36 And in Galatians 4:7 it says, "So you are no longer a slave, 15:39 but a son, and since you are a son, 15:42 God has made you also an heir." 15:44 If we are heirs, if Jesus has been given 15:48 all authority in heaven and earth 15:49 and He has also passed that authority to us, 15:52 then we can walk with empowerment. 15:55 And that's, you know, that's rather how I started is that 15:59 sometimes we are frightened by 16:01 what we feel our commands in the Bible 16:04 and they are not suggestions. 16:05 When God said " Be Holy, for I am Holy." 16:07 I think first of all sometimes we forget how holy God is 16:11 and but when He says that 16:13 its not anything to make our knees knock its to say, 16:17 that God is telling us 16:19 I'll make you holy if you'll come to me. 16:22 Now when we are talking about spiritual consistency 16:27 can we add to this list, that those-- 16:31 let's look at how sometimes our spiritual life degrades 16:35 because that relationship between us 16:37 and the Lord needs to be consistently growing. 16:41 But there is many things that affect us 16:43 when we quit taking time to read the Bible, 16:46 quit making time for prayer. 16:49 It's so easy to fall into a rhythm 16:55 that's out of step with God 16:58 and that's when we really start acting strange around. 17:01 People were one way one minute and one way the next 17:04 depending on with him whom we are associating. 17:07 So if a learning-- I mean how can we overcome 17:11 some of these inconsistencies 17:14 that you are talking about 17:15 as we learn who we are in Christ? 17:17 What would you recommend that people do who recognize 17:21 that I am being inconsistent? 17:24 Shelley, you have answered your own question. 17:26 I mean, you've already said it. 17:28 It's when we start spending time with the Lord. 17:30 I mean, what are our priorities? 17:33 We end up with busy schedules 17:35 and so we start chipping away at something. 17:38 So instead of prioritizing and making sure 17:41 that God remains in the top position. 17:45 You know, we can spend five minutes with Him 17:47 or we can spend 30 minutes with Him or even an hour 17:49 or but whatever we spend with Christ, 17:53 whatever time we spend with Christ, 17:56 is gonna be reflected in how we live life. 17:58 Amen, that's true. 17:59 And I find that when my schedule is the most full, 18:04 I need to spend the most time with the Lord. 18:07 And I need to surrender my agenda to Him 18:10 and ask Him, what really needs to be taken care of in a day 18:12 or where does He need me to be. 18:14 But, if we start cutting God out, 18:17 everything you have said is true. 18:18 You know, it's reflected in our character. 18:23 And boy, everybody falls into this 18:26 I don't care you may be a pastor 18:28 who is watching us and know that there are times 18:32 that life make so many demands on our time, 18:36 that we feel that 18:38 oh, instead of spending an hour today in prayer 18:40 I will get up and spend five minutes today in prayer. 18:43 And then you get through the day 18:45 and you are thinking, ah, nothing went right. 18:47 I find like you that the more time 18:50 you spend with the Lord the better the day goes 18:53 and when you are tackling a very important project 18:56 that's a really important. 18:59 In Matthew 28:18 Shelley, it says, 19:02 "Jesus came to them and said, 19:04 'All authority in heaven and on earth 19:05 has been given to me,'" meaning to Jesus. 19:08 "Therefore go and make disciples." 19:11 So now He is telling His followers 19:14 that without authority they go 19:16 and they "Make disciples of all nations, 19:18 baptizing them in the name of the Father, 19:20 the Son and the Holy Spirit, 19:22 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded. 19:24 And then he says, "Surely I am with you, until the end." 19:27 Jesus was given all authority over heaven and earth. 19:30 He passes that authority to us. 19:32 We can walk in authority as heirs of the kingdom, 19:35 we can be empowered and if Jesus has all authority. 19:39 How much authority then the Satan have? 19:42 He is got none. He has no authority. 19:44 Only what we'll give him in our life. 19:45 Exactly, that's what I was gonna say. 19:47 Exactly correct. 19:49 He has what we give him 19:51 so why do we want to give him any. 19:52 We can accept the authority of Jesus. 19:54 We can walk in that empowerment 19:56 and all you have to do to for that is just to obey 20:00 and live out that faith. 20:01 Live out that understanding in our life through Jesus. 20:05 But you know, it's that true or would you agree 20:08 because I know you do some of what I do as well 20:11 and that is claiming the promises of God, 20:13 confessing Him over your life, praying impact to the Lord. 20:16 To me, any time that-- wait a minute, 20:20 I have written a couple of books on this 20:22 but still there are times 20:24 when I may get up in the morning and pray, 20:27 and I may spend time, a little time in devotional 20:29 and I pray through out the day. 20:31 But if I don't set aside time 20:34 to really confess the word of God over my life 20:36 and pray it back to the Lord 20:38 I notice it's just like somebody 20:42 the wattage went down if you will. 20:43 I mean, it's like somebody is powering down the plant here. 20:47 And its-- its being--I call it 20:49 being plugged into your power source. 20:52 So when Hebrews 1:3 says, that, 20:57 God Jesus it's talking about 20:59 is the perfect expression of the Father's being 21:03 and that he apposed all things. 21:06 He sustains everything by his mighty word of power. 21:10 That's a sustaining power for me, as doing that. 21:12 And anytime I take a break from that practice, 21:16 from that discipline 21:17 I noticed my own spiritual power going down. 21:21 Well, scripture itself you know in 2 Peter says that, 21:25 "Through these He has given us His very great 21:27 and precious promises, 21:29 so that through them you may participate in the divine nature 21:35 and escape the corruption in the world." 21:38 And we are told that it's through God's promises. 21:40 It is personalizing scripture. 21:42 It's claiming God's word. Absolutely. 21:44 And going back to what you said earlier, 21:46 every command is a promise, 21:48 because if God commands us to do it 21:51 just as you said, He promises to enable us and help us. 21:54 He never asked as to do anything 21:55 that He is not willing to help us to do. Exactly. 21:58 So commands are gifts from God. 22:03 They are absolutely gifts from God as well. 22:05 And as we experience this intimacy with Jesus, 22:10 as we--as we-- as we experience this time 22:16 of giving ourselves fully to Him 22:20 transformation happens in our lives. 22:22 We being to reflect this, we partaken His divine nature 22:26 and we are reflecting His love, life and power. 22:29 And then we can have the consistency. Right. 22:32 That's where the consistency comes exactly. 22:35 In 1 Peter 1:13-16 which you read earlier, 22:39 you read at the beginning of our program, 22:41 we are called to be holy. We are called holy. 22:45 But if we are called to be holy He going to help it happen, 22:48 if we are willing and if we want to make a time investment 22:51 just like in any relationship. 22:53 And this holiness is something 22:56 that God does on the inside of us. 22:58 It's not necessarily-- you know, sometimes 23:01 we get the idea that, 23:02 if we put our hair back in a tight bun 23:04 and wear long skirts, 23:05 and always sure this where people they laugh 23:07 because I wear long skirts because I love long skirts 23:10 and its very much more modest 23:12 if you are on the platform or sitting on a set. 23:15 But its not us-- you know when we say 23:19 be holy its not us just trying to walk a straight laced walk 23:23 and, and changing things about us. 23:25 It's us as Psalm 24 says, opening up our heart 23:30 and letting the king of glory come in 23:32 and let Him do this work as the potteries, 23:37 as He says, you are the clay 23:39 I am the potter, He is gonna mold us and make us. 23:42 Well, and also in Malachi 3:3 23:45 when it says, "He shall sit as a refiner 23:48 and purifier of silver. 23:50 He will purify the sons of Levi, 23:52 and purge them as gold and silver." 23:54 So you probably heard the story of the woman 23:57 that we heard that and those key words he shall sit 24:00 and curious about why a silversmith sits 24:04 as they are doing this process, working, 24:07 she went to observe one. 24:09 And as she sat there watching a silversmith 24:12 and ask him that question. 24:14 He said I may sit with my eyes sturdily fixed on the furnace 24:18 since the silver is sure to be injured if it remains too long. 24:23 And then she says, well, how do you know 24:24 when that process is completed? 24:26 And he said, when I see my image reflected in it 24:30 I know the process is completed. 24:33 Well, that take us right back to scripture, 24:36 when Jesus image is reflected through us. Amen. 24:41 And what--you know to me that story is saying 24:44 is that there are times that's God allows. 24:48 I like what James says in James Chapter 1 24:51 when he is talking to us about these trials 24:54 and that we should be-- 24:56 we should be joyful and in these trails. 24:58 And that's because God's sees a potential in you 25:01 and He is trusting you with that trail. 25:04 And what He is doing is He leads you in that trail 25:07 not so long that you could be damaged 25:10 but just so long as silversmith is holding this over the flame 25:14 till he can see his reflection in you. 25:17 It's how he begins to train us up 25:21 and burn off some of the draws, 25:23 if you will of our character. Is it not? 25:26 So in that pain and perplexity of life experience 25:31 sometimes that just could really pull us down 25:34 where we might question God. 25:37 We can be sure that his saying 25:40 someday you may not understand now, 25:42 but someday you will understand. Amen, amen. 25:47 Derry, thank you so much, 25:48 for coming again and sharing all these things 25:50 and you know our bottom line today, 25:53 is that we are talking about spiritual consistency. 25:57 And I know that this is something that you worked 26:01 its not when we talk about God doing everything for us 26:04 and equipping us 26:05 we still as you are reading from 2 Peter 1,3 and 4 26:09 if you go--God giving us all of His promises 26:13 and through these we partake at the divine nature. Exactly. 26:17 The Bible says, right there in that scripture passage 26:20 he says, He is giving us everything 26:21 we need for life and godliness. 26:23 But then he goes on in verse 5 26:25 and he says for this very reason using all diligence 26:30 make every effort to add by you-- 26:35 it's a cooperative work. Absolutely. 26:37 We are working together with the Lord 26:39 and I know that God has called you on a path 26:42 and you have been working together 26:44 with all diligence to see 26:46 that God's purpose is fulfilled in your life 26:49 to reflect the character of Jesus. Amen. 26:52 Amen, thank you so much for coming. 26:55 So delight to be with you. 26:56 Always, you know, I sometimes listen 26:59 to my little soft spoken friend over here 27:01 and she is so gentle 27:03 and sometimes I can just be so boisterous and efflorescent 27:08 but its always a delight to know that 27:12 when I look at Derry or she looks at me, 27:14 we identify with each other in so many ways 27:18 and I do this with all my brothers and sisters in Christ 27:21 because we are-- we see 27:25 something of Jesus in one another that we like 27:29 and it attracts us to each other. 27:33 But, when we got to remember that 27:35 when we go out to the world whether its to the bank teller 27:37 or in the traffic 27:39 we need our actions need to reflect Jesus 27:42 that we might hold Jesus high 27:44 and He could draw our men on to himself. 27:48 I pray, Matthew 6:33 "Seek first the kingdom of God, 27:52 then he will add all of these things on to you." 27:55 Thanks for joining us. |
Revised 2014-12-17