Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Martin Weber
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000324
|
00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
00:32 and welcome again to issues and answers. 00:33 We are so glad that you could join us today 00:36 and I think that you are going to find this a fascinating topic 00:39 because our issue today is going to be 00:42 God's plan of salvation for your children 00:45 and how this plan is perfectly depicted in the sanctuary. 00:49 Let me read you one of my favorite scriptures 00:52 and this is a Bible promise that you can hold on to it. 00:55 It comes from Hebrews 4:16 00:59 and the Bible says, "Let us come boldly to the throne of grace, 01:05 that we may receive mercy and find grace 01:08 to help in good time for every need." 01:12 You know, Hebrew 7:25 says that 01:15 Jesus is living to make intercession for us 01:18 and God is inviting us as His children 01:21 to come before Him to talk with Him, 01:24 to let Him talk with us 01:26 and to know that He is a God who knows us intimately 01:31 and He wants to be involved in every detail, 01:35 intimate detail of our lives. 01:38 Well, please help me welcome our special guest 01:41 and that is Martin Weber 01:42 and Martin we are so glad that you have come back again. 01:45 Oh, thanks. 01:46 You know, you have been here several times before 01:48 and we've had some good discussions 01:51 about how to keep kids in the church. 01:54 And today we are going to be talking 01:56 about a very fascinating topic to me, 01:59 and that's heaven's plan to save your kids 02:01 as seen through the sanctuary. 02:03 Now you are, for those who have not seen you before, 02:08 you are the Communications Director 02:10 for Mid-America Region of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 02:13 You are the editor for the Outlet Magazine, 02:16 Just finished your doctorial studies 02:18 and everything that we've been discussing has come from, 02:22 as you worked in the doctorate in divinity, is that what it is? 02:28 I mean doctor of ministry. Yeah. 02:30 Doctor of Ministry. 02:31 So you have done all of this research 02:36 and found some fascinating things. 02:38 So let's talk about why the Sanctuary 02:43 and this pre-advent judgment is actually something 02:47 that if your children understand, 02:49 it will help keep them in the church. 02:51 Yes, yes. 02:52 The Bible talks in a New Testament 02:54 about the same Old and New Testament 02:56 about the sanctuary. 02:58 The word "sanctuary" means refuge, 03:01 just like during the old slave days 03:03 the nation of Canada was for escaping slaves, 03:06 a sanctuary, a place of refuge. 03:08 They were going north through the underground railroads, 03:11 you know, and find refuge there. 03:14 And Jesus today is working harder for us 03:18 than He did when He was here on this earth. 03:21 Because here on this earth He had to take time out of sleep 03:24 and do the things we all need to do or we like to expect. 03:27 In the sanctuary, the Bible says right now here, 03:30 right now He ever lives, 03:32 always lives to make intercession for us 24x7. 03:36 Amen. And that's so exciting. 03:38 Sometimes people will say, "Oh, I need a prayer partner." 03:41 And a lot of times people, because I am on television, 03:43 you know, they will call in or write 03:45 and say will you be my prayer partner? 03:47 And I can't obviously. 03:49 So I'll tell them if you can't find any prayer partner, 03:52 just know that there is one in heaven 03:54 who is interceding with you. 03:55 I mean He's praying with you right now 03:57 and Jesus is your prayer partner. 03:58 Yeah, and He is interceding. 04:01 It's another word for it, He is our advocate. 04:04 Absolutely. Advocate. 04:05 And He is not trying to get God the Father to like us 04:09 or want us to be saved like He wants us to be saved 04:14 or rather the two of them are working together 04:16 against our common adversary, which is the enemy, the devil. 04:21 Now let me make sure everyone understood what you just said. 04:24 God loves us unconditionally, 04:26 and Jesus isn't trying to convince the Father to love us 04:29 because He's loved us with an everlasting love, 04:32 therefore He draws us with love and kindness, 04:35 but rather the two of them are working together 04:38 against our adversary Satan who is the accuser of brethren. 04:42 He is the accuser of the brethren. 04:44 The word adversary or accuser is right there in the name, Satan. 04:48 It's very dramatic throughout scripture 04:50 particularly in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12 04:52 where it talks about the devil, 04:55 Satan, accusing us before the Father 04:58 and day and night as being unworthy. 05:01 You cast me out of heaven, 05:03 how dare you bring them up there 05:05 when they do some of the same things I tempt them to do. 05:07 Yes, yes. 05:09 So now when you were studying this, 05:12 how do you think that the pre-advent judgment 05:17 shows God's willingness to dialogue with us? 05:21 Yeah. Dialogue as we talked about is a major factor 05:27 in avoiding attrition instead of because I said so. 05:32 So we are talking about attrition 05:33 and children leaving the church 05:35 and if a parent will actually communicate 05:39 and dialogue and let the child speak back 05:41 and be open instead of just, 05:45 you are going to do because I said so. 05:47 Yeah. 05:48 Some Christians have a view of God that's very arbitrary. 05:52 You know, He even determines arbitrarily apparently 05:55 before people are born, 05:56 whether they are going to be saved or lost. 05:58 It's a very Calvinistic view. 05:59 Yeah, yeah, 06:00 and of course a lot of people 06:02 duly love the Lord and believe that, 06:03 but the view of God if we as parents 06:09 whether we are clergy 06:10 or otherwise have that way towards our kids 06:12 because I said so, you know, arbitrarily, 06:16 extrinsic rather than engaging 06:20 and God says, "Come now, let us reason together." 06:24 Right. 06:26 There are couple of things 06:28 about the Old Testament sanctuary 06:31 that are so beautifully reflected 06:34 to the New Testament ministry of Christ. 06:36 May I share it? 06:37 Please. Please, do. 06:38 Okay. 06:40 In the Hebrew legal system 06:42 there were no advocates normally. 06:47 If you witness the crime, 06:48 if you saw me at WalMart stealing something, 06:54 back in Old Testament times you understand-- 06:55 Right, with the WalMart ahead off the cyanide. 06:59 Yeah, off the cyanide, yeah, right there. 07:02 If you saw me taking something 07:04 that was yours specific duty to prosecute, 07:07 to bring me before the judge 07:08 and say I saw Martin doing such as such, you know. 07:12 And so there are words before the judge. 07:14 Now there was no defender for me, 07:16 because the judge was required by Hebrew law to take my side. 07:22 The Judge was your advocate. 07:23 Yes. He was your defender. 07:24 Yes. Right. 07:25 Now here in our western legal system, 07:27 which we get through the Romans, the Judge has to be neutral. 07:33 If there's a biased one way or the other, 07:35 the judge must recuse himself and step back. 07:40 But back in Hebrew times, 07:41 no, the judge was biased and prejudiced in favor of-- 07:46 Hallelujah. Yeah. 07:48 Isn't that exciting? 07:49 Yeah, in favor of the defender. 07:50 Now of course the judge had to be fair. 07:53 So if you could, you know, show a video 07:55 from your cell phone of me taking that 07:59 whatever I was taking from WalMart you know, 08:01 if you are the evidence 08:02 the judge had to reluctantly abandon his defense of me 08:07 and see to it that a just justice would be executed. 08:11 But, that was not the predisposition. 08:13 The predisposition was vindication. 08:16 And what so exciting about that is 08:18 because Christ is called our advocate. 08:20 He is also called our judge. 08:21 So he is the Father and the son are actually on our side 08:27 and if this evidence that's presented to them 08:33 is found to be true 08:35 and if refutably true 08:37 and we are not seeking refuge in Christ 08:40 then there will be a penalty. Yeah, absolutely. 08:44 The penalty of sin is death. 08:47 Yeah, it wasn't an inconsequence thing 08:50 that Jesus died. 08:52 He didn't die in vain. 08:53 He died for a purpose for us to find a refuge. 08:55 Now here is what I really get excited 08:59 because although they were not advocates 09:01 or defense attorneys normally, 09:04 and three situations in Old Testament times 09:06 in Hebrew legal system 09:08 and three situations there were advocates. 09:12 And this is from the Jewish encyclopedia. 09:14 Number one, if the accused was the spouse of, 09:21 if you were the husband of the accused and more as charges, 09:26 then the husband was a court appointed advocate 09:29 to represent the wife. 09:32 Christ and His pride. 09:33 There you go. I love it. 09:35 Yeah, Christ stands up for His pride which is being accused. 09:39 So number one, number two is, 09:43 if there was a minor child, 09:48 a girl under 13 and a boy under 12, 09:50 in the Hebrew legal system 09:52 a child was given a court appointed advocate. 09:57 Praise God. 09:58 And so we are children. 10:00 We are children of God. 10:01 So we have an advocate appointed by the judge to represent Him 10:07 and to represent us before Him against Satan 10:11 who is accusing in helping. 10:14 The judge vindicated. 10:17 And the third, now this not very flattering of human nature, 10:20 but when I hear to be flattered. 10:22 If there was an insane person, 10:26 if there was insane person 10:28 that obviously couldn't defend himself or herself 10:32 the judge was required by lateral point 10:35 and advocate to represent this insane person. 10:38 Now of course, the Bible, says that the whole head is sick. 10:42 The whole heart is faint. 10:44 Sin is insane. 10:46 You know, it's insane to treat the people 10:48 we love the most the worst, that's insane. 10:52 It's insane to do the stuff 10:55 we are tempted to do too often indeed. 10:57 Dude, in our weakonomics that's insane. 11:00 Absolutely. 11:01 It's insane not love the Lord 11:02 with all our hearts and soul and mind. 11:05 It's insane, it's insane, 11:06 whatever that you yield towards temptation, we are in the flush. 11:10 We are insane. Oh, that's true. 11:12 And God is sort of condemning us, 11:15 He pity's us by giving us a quarter pointed advocate, 11:18 who stands up for us in the sanctuary 11:21 with Him and represents us. 11:26 So they are right there in the Jewish encyclopedia 11:28 from the Hebrew legal system in the Old Testament, 11:31 we have these glorious New Testament Gospel principles 11:35 of father and son working together 11:39 for our vindication against the enemy 11:42 who is accusing us like he accused Job. 11:45 And you know when you think about this, 11:49 I use this illustration 11:51 that what Satan's favorite snares 11:55 is he takes us to his baton of self-condemnation 11:59 and he is passing it off to us. 12:01 And so what we do is not realizing 12:06 that we have an advocate 12:07 who is standing before the judge and they both on our side, 12:10 we will take that baton 12:13 and we will just bang it on ourselves over the head. 12:15 There is self-condemnation, 12:16 whereas the Bible says in Romans 8:1, 12:18 "If you are in Christ, 12:20 therefore there is no condemnation 12:22 for those who are in Christ Jesus." 12:24 Right. 12:25 Later in that chapter which is of course 12:27 one of Christianity's favorite chapters, 12:29 Romans 8, later on it talks, 12:30 it bring us into the Sanctuary on this very matter 12:34 that you are talking about condemnation, 12:36 who is he that would dare condemn us, 12:38 God is the one who justifies. 12:41 And Jesus is the one who intercedes for us. 12:46 So right there in Romans chapter 8, 12:50 whatever we are feeling condemned about, 12:53 God says you may feel that way, 12:55 but it's not reality in Christ, 12:58 if you have come apart from the world 13:02 and its foolishness and you've turned around 13:05 and you've repented and you've come to me through Jesus. 13:09 And the throne of grace that Hebrew chapter 4 talks about 13:13 that you read about is actually of course 13:15 in the Old Testament like the mercy seat. 13:17 Right, Amen. 13:19 And, yes, the law is there. 13:21 God is a just God. 13:23 But the slab of Gold, 13:25 there is mercy with the angels looking over the mercy seat 13:31 that's how we relay with God through his mercy. 13:36 None of us is good enough to relay to Him 13:40 on the basis of how well we are keeping the law. 13:43 You know, in Lamentations 3:22-23, 13:46 I believe, where it says that, 13:49 "His mercies are new every morning, 13:51 His compassions fail not," 13:53 and we think about this and that is God wants to forgive us 13:59 if we would just turn 1 John 1:9, 14:03 says that he is faithful and just if we will confess our sin 14:08 he will not only forgive us our sin, 14:10 but cleans us of all our righteousness. 14:14 And, you know, when you said earlier 14:15 that some people believe that there is a predisposition 14:19 that you are predestined either, 14:22 you know, you saved your knot distance, 14:26 the Bible says that God wants all men to repent into the same. 14:30 That's His heart. 14:31 The only predestination is that 14:34 I can really say for sure is Romans 8:29 that 14:38 "Those who He foreknew that would come to Christ," 14:41 based on what Romans 8:28 says that we are in Christ, 14:44 He predestined us to be conformed 14:46 to the image of His Son. 14:48 So that's our destiny. 14:49 That's our pre-destiny, is to be conformed to His image. 14:53 God has put us in Christ, without our request, 14:56 without our permission before we even existed physically 15:00 God put us in Christ. 15:03 When Jesus died, we died. 15:05 When He rose. We rose. 15:08 And when He was as a high priest installed 15:13 as in this ministry in the sanctuary that was for us. 15:16 And so now, we have a choice to make 15:19 He is called the second Adam. 15:21 The first Adam wrecked at the tree in the Garden of Eden. 15:25 And that's not fair. 15:26 Somebody says it is not fair for what Adam did. 15:28 Because of what Adam did, 15:29 you know, there is death there. 15:30 It's true it's not fair. 15:31 That's why God gave us a second Adam, Jesus Christ. 15:34 So now we have a choice to make. 15:36 We can identify ourselves with either fall in Adam 15:40 and his follies by doing what comes naturally doing 15:43 what we feel like doing, 15:45 doing what the world tells us to do, 15:48 or we can identify with the second Adam Jesus Christ 15:52 and find a whole new history in what He did 15:57 and His perfect works become our history. 16:00 Now, you confused me just a little bit 16:02 because there is a choice for us to be in Christ 16:05 when 1 Corinthians 1:13 says, 16:07 it's because of God that we are in Christ, 16:09 but we agreed that the choice says 16:11 we have to born again to be in him. 16:14 Okay. I just want a clarify that one point. 16:16 Yeah, to get a little deeper, 16:17 164 times in the New Testament there is a Christ motif 16:24 and God has created a whole new humanity in Christ. 16:30 We are new creations in Christ Jesus. 16:32 The old has gone and the new has come. 16:33 That's right. And historically, 2000 years ago, 16:36 there was a whole new human race 16:39 created through the resurrection of Jesus Christ 16:43 called the Church, 16:44 and Jesus briefed his spirit upon this whole new humanity 16:48 and when we repent 16:50 and come to Christ we are included in this new humanity, 16:56 we are included in Christ. Amen. 16:58 And so in a sense 17:01 we were in the Garden of Eden when he send, 17:06 Adam send the first Adam and in a very real sense 17:09 we were also in Christ 17:12 when he died on the Cross and rose again. 17:14 And now we have our choice to make. 17:17 Do I wish to be an Adam? 17:18 Do I wish to be in Christ? 17:20 And by that identification 17:21 that's our eternal salvation or loss. 17:24 And, you know, there is Revelation 12:11 says that, 17:28 "We overcome by the blood of the Lamb 17:30 and the word of our Testament," 17:32 and that's something that I think its so important 17:35 we were discussing this before the program 17:37 knowing your identity in Christ 17:39 and confessing who you are in Christ 17:43 because if the Bible tells us in Romans 10:17, 17:49 it says, faith comes by hearing 17:51 and hearing by the word of Christ. 17:53 And I think it's Romans 10:10 that talks about, 17:55 it's with your heart that you believe 17:57 but with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 18:01 So this is something that's our part of thing 18:03 that's our sanctuary when you talk about 18:05 overcoming the blood of Lamb and the word of our Testament. 18:08 Yes. 18:09 And the context there is 18:10 specifically overcoming the accusations of Satan. Amen. 18:14 He is accusing us and God has to be fair just like with, 18:18 you caught me at WalMart back there at Satan right. 18:21 And so the Judge has to be fair 18:25 and if you got evidence against me, 18:28 I need to have evidence to vindicate 18:31 in my evidence is in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ 18:35 and that's where the cross comes in because God, 18:37 a holy and just God, finds through the cross the evidence, 18:42 the blood of Jesus, we are vindicated 18:45 through the blood of Jesus 18:46 and whom we trust so, there at the cross, 18:50 we find the evidence, we find our salvation 18:54 and God says yes that is your evidence. 18:57 So a holy God can relate to sinners 19:00 through the blood of the cross. 19:03 Now we are talking about, 19:06 we need to bring this back in 19:07 and hide into how this helps children's to know things 19:11 and keeps them in the church. 19:13 You know, God is one who is very open and transparent. 19:18 He says comes let us reason together. 19:21 I want to have this communication with you, 19:23 which is what you are saying that parents need to, 19:25 it can't be God doesn't force us to act. 19:28 Nor can we force our children to act. 19:30 We have to train them up, give them principles, 19:34 but we have to recognize 19:36 that we do have to as they grow and mature. 19:40 They have to learn how to make some decisions on their own. 19:43 But how does this in your research? 19:46 What was it about understanding the sanctuary system? 19:51 And this relationship with God, 19:54 how is that helped keep the children in the church? 19:57 On the specific thing of dialogue, 20:01 the dialogue and we are processing problems 20:05 and discussing problems 20:06 this is what's going on in the sanctuary. 20:08 The Bible talks about in the New Testament, 20:12 well first of all, a lot of Christians 20:16 are looking to Jerusalem 20:17 for rebuilding of a temple down there, you know. 20:21 But it says in the book of Hebrews don't look down there. 20:24 Look to heaven. 20:26 Yeah, we are just like a cook needs of kitchen 20:29 a priest needs a sanctuary 20:31 and Jesus our priests in heaven interceding for us 20:35 is in the sanctuary and there are two different phases 20:39 of this sanctuary work for us 20:42 there is the continual forgiving us, 20:46 confession there is the that going on, 20:49 but there is also judgment phase 20:52 where by God opens the books for the celestial universe 20:57 for the angels to see how he has been fair 21:02 and relating to people throughout history, 21:05 and He wouldn't have to do that 21:07 because He is God, He could say well, hey. 21:09 Just because I said so. 21:10 Yeah, exactly, but instead He does say, 21:14 "Let us reason together," 21:15 and Romans 3:3 talks about how God Himself, 21:22 allows Himself to be vindicated 21:24 and He overcomes when He is judged. 21:27 That almost seems blasphemous to think 21:31 that God being judged will actually, 21:34 God does allow Himself to be ordered 21:38 by His celestial universe. 21:42 He opens the book and says I have nothing to hide 21:45 just like a CEO of some corporation 21:49 who might be accused of some fraud. 21:53 He says, "Look, I have nothing to hide. 21:55 Open the books look over my shoulder, 21:56 see what I have done, see what I have got here." 21:59 And then the company, they can look and say, 22:02 "Well, hey, yeah, you have been fair and justice 22:05 this is the type of thing that's going on right now 22:09 just before Jesus comes in the sanctuary," 22:12 whereby the devil who accuses not just us and, 22:15 you know, ultimately it's not us that he is getting it. 22:19 It's--He is trying to get a God. That's right. 22:22 You know, we are just peons, 22:23 you know, come along and live a few days and die. 22:26 He is trying to prove God's system is wrong, 22:29 which is what he has been trying to prove 22:30 from the very beginning. Exactly. 22:33 God is like the chair of the parole board, okay? 22:36 Okay. 22:37 Now here in Illinois, if the chair of the parole board, 22:43 or the governor whoever pardon in this day, 22:46 let somebody who deserves to die paroles him turns him lose, 22:51 well, it's not just a question 22:53 why is that guy running around lose, 22:54 but who in the world-- Did it. 22:56 Yeah. Parole is such a person. 22:59 So here we are running around free of condemnation. 23:04 Now the Devil says, 23:06 "Mind whoever deserves to be condemned." 23:09 But God, the Father, paroled me in the sanctuary 23:11 so here I am running around free in the Lord, 23:14 rejoicing and the devil says, 23:16 "Hey, not only why is he running around 23:18 but how could you God set him free, 23:22 how could you paroled him from guilt and condemnation! 23:25 And so it's in the Sanctuary that God shows this man 23:30 is trusting in the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen. 23:33 Yes, He is got false and such, 23:37 but when you come down to that this man 23:39 is a believer and you are believer. 23:42 In my church, by definition, 23:44 they are the part of the body of Christ. 23:45 They are believing in Christ. 23:47 So therefore they have a right to be free. 23:52 God stands up and he defends our freedom. 23:55 "Whom the son has set free is free indeed." 23:57 Yes. Amen. 23:59 Now, you know, I'm thinking about the love of God. 24:03 Romans 5:8 is one of my favorite scriptures 24:07 that says that this is the way 24:09 God manifested His love for us 24:11 that He sent His son to die for us 24:14 while we were yet sinners. 24:16 Is this the idea in your research, 24:20 how if children understand this plan, 24:26 and understand that God is not that-- 24:30 let me put it this way that God is the perfect Father, 24:34 the giver of every good and perfect gift 24:36 and that He is not one up there as judge looking 24:39 and saying I'm going to get you, get you, 24:41 ah, you did this wrong. 24:42 I'm going to get you, 24:43 but rather He is up there working with Christ, 24:47 the son as our advocate trying to say, 24:50 you know, come confess to me, 24:52 I'm going to send my Holy Spirit. 24:53 I am wooing you with my love. 24:55 Confess to me and I'll forgive your sins. 24:58 I'll pardon you and I'm going to protect you 25:01 from your adversary, the devil. 25:03 Is this idea? 25:06 Is this what gives children the cement they need to stay? 25:11 Yeah, the hope to carry on. Absolutely. 25:13 Hope, that's the word I was looking for. 25:15 And, you know, there is one more dimension to this 25:17 and the little time we have left, 25:20 the sanctuary also tells me not only, 25:23 is God not condemning me, 25:24 but I should not condemn myself. 25:26 Don't take that baton, right. 25:28 Yeah, yeah. 25:29 You know, often I would hear as a pastor or chaplain. 25:33 Well, look what I did. 25:35 I can't forgive myself. 25:37 And I would try to gently ask them, 25:41 "Well, do you think you are God? 25:42 You know, what makes you think 25:44 that you have the right to 25:46 either forgive yourself or condemn yourself?" 25:48 You know, we don't have that right. 25:49 We are not the judge of ourselves. 25:53 God is the Judge and He says, 25:55 I am in the forgiveness business. 25:58 So who are you or who am I to, 26:00 you know, think what I need to decide. 26:02 I'm smarter than God. 26:04 He forgave me, but I won't forgive myself. 26:07 And the sanctuary also tells me 26:09 that I have no right to condemn myself 26:12 and I have no right to let other people condemn me, 26:16 like suffer guilt trips that other people 26:17 might try to force upon me, 26:19 whether they are the Church members 26:21 or people out there in the world, 26:23 if God has accepted me 26:25 and He is the only one that accounts there, 26:27 He is the judge, if He says you are in, 26:30 I have no right to question that, nor does anybody else. 26:34 Praise God. 26:35 You know, I think one of the greatest lessons 26:37 of the sanctuary is that the typical day atonement, 26:41 which we are looking for a typical day of epitome 26:45 is that is the judgment was in favor 26:50 of the people of God, hallelujah. 26:52 Yes, judgment in favor, that's right. 26:54 So that's why you can have like to name Daniel, God is my judge. 26:58 It means God is my vindicator. 26:59 God's on my side. 27:01 Amen. Amen. 27:02 Martin this has been just fascinating. 27:05 I love this, and I want to thank you so much for returning again 27:09 and I think that, you've really, 27:11 your research is going to make a difference in the church. 27:14 Thank you. 27:15 We are so pleased to have you. 27:16 I hope that you have benefited from this 27:19 and enjoyed this wonderful study 27:21 and that this will just kind of hitting the very top of this. 27:27 I hope that you go and do some study 27:29 on your own for the sanctuary 27:31 and all the beautiful lessons that of the Gospel 27:35 that are in the sanctuary service. 27:38 And for now, we pray that you and your family 27:41 that the love of our Lord Jesus Christ 27:43 and the grace of Him and the love of the Father 27:47 and fellowship of the Holy Spirit 27:49 will be with you today and for everyday 27:52 throughout eternity. Thank you. |
Revised 2014-12-17