Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn
00:00:30.73\00:00:32.02
and welcome again to
"Issues and Answers."
00:00:32.05\00:00:34.58
We are so happy to have you
joining us from around the world
00:00:34.61\00:00:37.74
whether you are
watching on television,
00:00:37.77\00:00:39.37
on the internet or
listening by radio.
00:00:39.40\00:00:42.17
Today, our issue is going to be
00:00:42.20\00:00:45.45
how to keep
children in the church.
00:00:45.48\00:00:47.19
Now, we've discussed
this a couple of times before,
00:00:47.22\00:00:49.72
so don't tune out if you
think you have seen this already
00:00:49.75\00:00:52.51
because what we are
going to be talking about today
00:00:52.54\00:00:55.22
is rather surprising
actually to some of you,
00:00:55.25\00:00:58.12
and that is if
you teach our children
00:00:58.15\00:01:00.14
to really celebrate the Sabbath,
00:01:00.17\00:01:02.71
this can keep them in church.
00:01:02.74\00:01:04.69
You, know God said
to us in Isaiah 58:13,
00:01:04.72\00:01:08.57
I'm going to begin
with scripture here.
00:01:08.60\00:01:11.98
He says "That if we will
call the Sabbath a delight,
00:01:12.01\00:01:17.86
a holy day, honorable day",
and then going on verse 14,
00:01:17.89\00:01:23.01
he says "If we are finding
a joy in him on the Sabbath,
00:01:23.04\00:01:27.02
he says, then will you
delight yourself in the Lord,
00:01:27.05\00:01:31.47
and I will make you to
ride on the high places."
00:01:31.50\00:01:34.54
God wants us to learn
00:01:34.57\00:01:37.20
what the true
meaning of Sabbath is
00:01:37.23\00:01:39.34
and believe it or not,
00:01:39.37\00:01:41.27
hope you will by
the end of this program.
00:01:41.30\00:01:43.19
If you learn how to
really celebrate God's Sabbath,
00:01:43.22\00:01:47.35
this can keep your
children in the church.
00:01:47.38\00:01:49.47
Help me to welcome
back our special guest
00:01:49.50\00:01:52.10
and that's Martin Weber.
00:01:52.13\00:01:53.55
Martin, we are so glad
that you are joining us again.
00:01:53.58\00:01:55.75
All right, I feel
like at home here.
00:01:55.78\00:01:56.85
Oh good, that's
what we want you to feel.
00:01:56.88\00:01:59.56
Now, we are-- let me say
00:01:59.59\00:02:01.36
if I can remember everything
that you do or have done.
00:02:01.39\00:02:04.30
You are the editor
for the Outlook magazine,
00:02:04.33\00:02:06.81
you are the
communications director
00:02:06.84\00:02:08.34
for the Mid-America region
00:02:08.37\00:02:09.81
of the
Seventh-day Adventists church,
00:02:09.84\00:02:12.42
churches you have
been a pastor in the past
00:02:12.45\00:02:14.93
and army chaplain,
not army, but a police.
00:02:14.96\00:02:18.18
Police, police chaplain.
00:02:18.21\00:02:19.24
Law enforcement, Police chaplain
00:02:19.27\00:02:21.54
and you are married, you
are father of two children,
00:02:21.57\00:02:25.13
so you've got a
resume this long,
00:02:25.16\00:02:27.88
but more importantly you
have recently been working
00:02:27.91\00:02:30.18
on your doctorial
studies, just completed those
00:02:30.21\00:02:33.24
and your focus was on
attrition in the church
00:02:33.27\00:02:37.37
and how to keep
children in the church.
00:02:37.40\00:02:39.37
So this is just a fascinating,
we had a couple of programs
00:02:39.40\00:02:43.04
that we've
already talked about this
00:02:43.07\00:02:44.97
but how does the
Sabbath make such an impact
00:02:45.00\00:02:50.15
as to keep our
children in the church.
00:02:50.18\00:02:52.94
It's either a make
or break experience,
00:02:52.97\00:02:55.81
the Sabbath, the
Sabbath can either be
00:02:55.84\00:02:57.75
a great blessing if we
look it at as Jesus did
00:02:57.78\00:03:01.84
or it can be a tremendous curse.
00:03:01.87\00:03:03.80
If we look it as the
Pharisees. Yeah, exactly.
00:03:03.83\00:03:06.95
And, you know, I got in trouble
00:03:06.98\00:03:08.02
with the
Pharisees one time. I did.
00:03:08.05\00:03:10.91
You know, back in Jesus' day,
00:03:10.94\00:03:12.99
the temple police they
were the agents of the Pharisees
00:03:13.02\00:03:16.99
and they blew
the whistle on Jesus
00:03:17.02\00:03:20.01
again and again and they blew
the whistle on me one Sabbath.
00:03:20.04\00:03:22.63
Well, because they
thought you are doing
00:03:22.66\00:03:24.23
something that
shouldn't be done.
00:03:24.26\00:03:25.62
It wasn't a good
day for me. Oh, okay.
00:03:25.65\00:03:27.95
I was there in
Jerusalem in my favorite place
00:03:27.98\00:03:30.05
there is at the Western Wall,
00:03:30.08\00:03:31.93
sometimes called
the Wailing Wall.
00:03:31.96\00:03:33.92
And, and the day began.
00:03:33.95\00:03:35.45
So you literally got in trouble
with the Pharisees. Yeah, I did.
00:03:35.48\00:03:38.29
I thought you were
making, you know, okay.
00:03:38.32\00:03:41.12
No, no, I was in
trouble, big trouble.
00:03:41.15\00:03:43.20
It started when I
just went down to the wall,
00:03:43.23\00:03:45.48
you know, you might
have little prayer request
00:03:45.51\00:03:47.06
and then stick it in the wall.
00:03:47.09\00:03:48.59
Well, I was so in
wonder about the place,
00:03:48.62\00:03:53.23
that I forgot that
it's the women over here
00:03:53.26\00:03:56.66
and the men are over
there, so I was just in awe
00:03:56.69\00:03:59.66
walking down to
one of this place
00:03:59.69\00:04:02.46
and I saw these men with horror,
00:04:02.49\00:04:05.28
you know, these police chasing,
00:04:05.31\00:04:06.83
chasing me away from
there and I finally realized,
00:04:06.86\00:04:11.21
you know, before I
just got to the wall,
00:04:11.24\00:04:13.18
that I was
defiling it by going, yeah.
00:04:13.21\00:04:15.89
But, that was just the
beginning of the problem
00:04:15.92\00:04:18.78
because when the sun went down.
00:04:18.81\00:04:23.27
As the sun is about to go
down, you know, Friday evening.
00:04:23.30\00:04:26.45
It's a place of
grand celebration
00:04:26.48\00:04:28.50
and different groups come as one
00:04:28.53\00:04:30.02
absolute one of the
most fascinating sites
00:04:30.05\00:04:32.52
you could see-- This is
the close of the Sabbath there.
00:04:32.55\00:04:34.86
Well, both the
opening and the closing both,
00:04:34.89\00:04:36.93
and I think
particularly of the opening one,
00:04:36.96\00:04:40.81
I was, there is a
place, a stone wall.
00:04:40.84\00:04:43.19
Yours truly, can
sit toward the back
00:04:43.22\00:04:44.33
and watch the whole
thing of what's going on,
00:04:44.36\00:04:46.37
a stone bench, facing the wall.
00:04:46.40\00:04:49.67
So I was listening to
some messianic praise music,
00:04:49.70\00:04:53.34
you know, it's about
Jesus, Messiah based Jewish.
00:04:53.37\00:04:56.65
And so I was sitting there
00:04:56.68\00:04:58.35
listening to this
music on my walkman.
00:04:58.38\00:05:01.41
This is a few years ago with
a little cassette, the walkman
00:05:01.44\00:05:04.58
and just
enjoying the whole scene
00:05:04.61\00:05:06.98
when all off a sudden
these guys in blue uniforms
00:05:07.01\00:05:09.53
came along, the temple police
00:05:09.56\00:05:11.57
and they pointed at me
and they said stop that
00:05:11.60\00:05:15.55
and they pointed to my
walkman, I turned it off.
00:05:15.58\00:05:19.09
You see I was, I was
making the batteries work,
00:05:19.12\00:05:22.61
I was working on the
Sabbath through the batteries,
00:05:22.64\00:05:25.53
so I turned it off and
took the thing off my head
00:05:25.56\00:05:28.47
and they went away
00:05:28.50\00:05:29.57
and then a young
woman sitting next to me,
00:05:29.60\00:05:34.01
said, "Do you know
what you did wrong?"
00:05:34.04\00:05:37.13
And she was from Yeshiva,
00:05:37.16\00:05:39.23
I think, you know, one
of the conservative schools
00:05:39.26\00:05:41.28
and so she wanted to make
it a learning point for me.
00:05:41.31\00:05:44.12
And so she said, "Do you
know what you did wrong?"
00:05:44.15\00:05:46.62
I said, well, you know I
came here to have a good time.
00:05:46.65\00:05:48.67
I didn't come
here to get in trouble
00:05:48.70\00:05:50.28
or getting
anyone else in trouble
00:05:50.31\00:05:52.08
but that I think
so but you tell me.
00:05:52.11\00:05:55.03
She said, well you made
00:05:55.06\00:05:58.44
the machine
work on your Sabbath.
00:05:58.47\00:06:00.44
I said oh and you know I
was over at the hotel there
00:06:00.47\00:06:03.43
and they have Shabbat elevators,
00:06:03.46\00:06:05.07
Sabbath elevators
that work on the Sabbath,
00:06:05.10\00:06:08.51
do the same thing
my walkman was doing
00:06:08.54\00:06:10.90
and I said I
understand that sometimes
00:06:10.93\00:06:12.78
people get hired to turn
light on and off on the Sabbath
00:06:12.81\00:06:16.05
so I said why isn't that wrong.
00:06:16.08\00:06:18.62
If my walkman is
wrong, why, you know,
00:06:18.65\00:06:21.63
why would you even pay
people to turn lights on or off,
00:06:21.66\00:06:26.33
is that not
breaking the Sabbath too.
00:06:26.36\00:06:29.47
So the whole point
that you are making here,
00:06:29.50\00:06:31.42
we knew literally when you said
00:06:31.45\00:06:32.92
you got trouble
with the Pharisees,
00:06:32.95\00:06:34.11
I thought there was
somebody in your church
00:06:34.14\00:06:36.14
that you were thinking of
being as pharisaical but this.
00:06:36.17\00:06:38.53
Well, that too, that too.
00:06:38.56\00:06:40.87
But what we are
talking about today is
00:06:40.90\00:06:45.50
we are going to
contrast this attitude
00:06:45.53\00:06:48.47
of legalistic Sabbath keeping
00:06:48.50\00:06:52.17
to the idea of what God meant,
00:06:52.20\00:06:55.42
Sabbath as a day of
relationship with Him,
00:06:55.45\00:06:58.43
with the family and with Him
00:06:58.46\00:07:00.55
and a real true
celebration and rest in Him.
00:07:00.58\00:07:04.19
And how when we
teach our children
00:07:04.22\00:07:07.06
how to really enjoy the stay
00:07:07.09\00:07:10.31
and make it a delightful day
00:07:10.34\00:07:12.15
that this is something
00:07:12.18\00:07:13.61
that will increase
their retention in the church.
00:07:13.64\00:07:17.63
Absolutely,
there are two extremes,
00:07:17.66\00:07:19.39
there is one
extreme we just talked about
00:07:19.42\00:07:20.96
the legalistic 24-hour tightrope
00:07:20.99\00:07:23.29
stretched across
the end of the week,
00:07:23.32\00:07:24.81
you know, get into
little more of that in a moment.
00:07:24.84\00:07:29.17
But there is the other extreme
00:07:29.20\00:07:30.37
where you just the Sabbath
00:07:30.40\00:07:31.63
is sort of like a--
it's a little bit different
00:07:31.66\00:07:35.49
but not a lot
different, and now of course,
00:07:35.52\00:07:38.23
we--those who are
Seventh-day Adventists,
00:07:38.26\00:07:40.06
we were Seventh-day Adventists
00:07:40.09\00:07:41.51
see it in scriptures
as a 24-hour experience,
00:07:41.54\00:07:44.51
it's not just two
hours between mowing the lawn
00:07:44.54\00:07:46.99
and watching the ball
game, you know. Yeah, right.
00:07:47.02\00:07:49.09
So it's a 24 hour experience
00:07:49.12\00:07:51.97
and to go back to
the Garden of Eden
00:07:52.00\00:07:55.64
way back at the
beginning God made the world
00:07:55.67\00:07:59.07
and then He rested
not just for Himself
00:07:59.10\00:08:02.11
and not because
He was tired off,
00:08:02.14\00:08:03.42
you see this is
God, who spoke the words,
00:08:03.45\00:08:07.27
but He was inviting Adam and Eve
00:08:07.30\00:08:10.20
to celebrate with Him
His accomplished works.
00:08:10.23\00:08:13.75
So the Sabbath is a
celebration in entering
00:08:13.78\00:08:17.84
the identifying
ourselves joyfully
00:08:17.87\00:08:21.17
with a finished
work of God. Amen, amen.
00:08:21.20\00:08:26.28
And so and so, that
defines what Sabbath is.
00:08:26.31\00:08:30.46
You know, and its interesting
00:08:30.49\00:08:31.53
that we want to
kind of establish
00:08:31.56\00:08:33.31
this
particularly for those of you
00:08:33.34\00:08:35.22
who many not be that
familiar with the Sabbath topic,
00:08:35.25\00:08:38.32
is that God
sanctified the seventh day.
00:08:38.35\00:08:42.78
He set it apart,
He called it holy.
00:08:42.81\00:08:45.36
It wasn't
Wednesday, it wasn't Thursday,
00:08:45.39\00:08:47.76
He sanctified this
Saturday, the Sabbath and--
00:08:47.79\00:08:51.86
Let me pounce in
there on that work sanctify.
00:08:51.89\00:08:54.05
That word sanctify
is much misunderstood.
00:08:54.08\00:08:58.57
It means exactly
what you said it means,
00:08:58.60\00:09:00.57
it mean to set apart. Right.
00:09:00.60\00:09:02.53
Sometimes we look
at the word sanctify,
00:09:02.56\00:09:04.33
it can be a scary word.
00:09:04.36\00:09:05.96
Like are you
sanctified or are you holy?
00:09:05.99\00:09:09.60
Now the word sanctify and holy,
00:09:09.63\00:09:11.46
I'm no Greek
scholar or Hebrew scholar
00:09:11.49\00:09:13.80
but in both languages
the words have common roots
00:09:13.83\00:09:17.58
and simply being
set apart for God.
00:09:17.61\00:09:20.54
Amen. And it's kind of like.
00:09:20.57\00:09:21.64
Which is what they root to,
00:09:21.67\00:09:22.71
that's what the
definition of holy is.
00:09:22.74\00:09:24.47
Yeah, same thing, yeah,
sanctify and holy same thing.
00:09:24.50\00:09:27.27
Just kind off like in a marriage
00:09:27.30\00:09:29.47
when two people are set apart
00:09:29.50\00:09:32.85
or literally sanctified
from the rest of the world,
00:09:32.88\00:09:35.71
every other
woman or man on earth,
00:09:35.74\00:09:37.79
for each other, for
this relationship together,
00:09:37.82\00:09:41.21
so sanctify is its not
like a Clorox word or you know.
00:09:41.24\00:09:45.54
It's a beautiful word.
00:09:45.57\00:09:46.74
Yeah, it's a perfume,
it's relational. Amen, amen.
00:09:46.77\00:09:50.33
And the point that I wanted
to make though for our viewers
00:09:50.36\00:09:53.20
who might not be that
familiar with a Sabbath
00:09:53.23\00:09:55.62
is that it wasn't a
Jewish, the seventh-day Sabbath
00:09:55.65\00:10:00.05
wasn't a Jewish tradition,
00:10:00.08\00:10:02.17
it wasn't something that
God just spoke to the Jews.
00:10:02.20\00:10:05.58
He had previously,
00:10:05.61\00:10:07.81
He instituted it
in the Garden of Eden
00:10:07.84\00:10:10.59
just as He instituted
the relationship of marriage,
00:10:10.62\00:10:14.09
and it was a very special day
to have relationship with Him
00:10:14.12\00:10:19.31
and as you said
to not be legalistic
00:10:19.34\00:10:22.50
but to intimate to this time
00:10:22.53\00:10:24.99
of celebrating His
accomplished works.
00:10:25.02\00:10:28.09
Yeah, yeah, the
Sabbath and marriage
00:10:28.12\00:10:30.85
with the family,
marriage and the family
00:10:30.88\00:10:32.83
are like two flowers
plucked from the Garden of Eden
00:10:32.86\00:10:35.33
that are still
here for us today.
00:10:35.36\00:10:36.82
And I think Satan has done
his very best to destroy both.
00:10:36.85\00:10:41.42
We all know what he's
done for a marriage and a home,
00:10:41.45\00:10:44.68
but also about the Sabbath
00:10:44.71\00:10:47.58
to either destroy by
making it a great burden
00:10:47.61\00:10:52.05
or destroy it by
causing it to be seen as
00:10:52.08\00:10:54.94
something you can just ignore
00:10:54.97\00:10:56.12
instead of set aside,
instead of setting apart,
00:10:56.15\00:10:59.39
just set aside,
leave it away, you know.
00:10:59.42\00:11:01.86
Now, interestingly for
your doctorial studies,
00:11:01.89\00:11:04.62
what you did was you surveyed
pastors and you were talking
00:11:04.65\00:11:11.37
specifically with
pastors and questioning,
00:11:11.40\00:11:13.74
they were answering,
00:11:13.77\00:11:14.91
answering 111
questions on your questionnaire.
00:11:14.94\00:11:17.82
These were pastors
who had grown children
00:11:17.85\00:11:19.82
some who had left the church
00:11:19.85\00:11:22.04
and others who
were still in the church
00:11:22.07\00:11:24.72
and what you learned was that
00:11:24.75\00:11:27.72
the way in which
they treated the Sabbath
00:11:27.75\00:11:30.87
was one of the
determining factors,
00:11:30.90\00:11:32.98
one of the
influencers on whether or not
00:11:33.01\00:11:36.81
their children
remained in the church
00:11:36.84\00:11:39.84
after they became adults.
00:11:39.87\00:11:41.55
So what was some--
00:11:41.58\00:11:44.45
for those who
had really positive
00:11:44.48\00:11:46.21
how did they
celebrate the Sabbath?
00:11:46.24\00:11:47.98
Yeah, they made it
a family experience.
00:11:48.01\00:11:51.91
Now, Sabbath for pastors
00:11:51.94\00:11:53.99
is kind of like meal time
for mother to cook, you know.
00:11:54.02\00:11:57.95
It's a very busy time
00:11:57.98\00:11:59.28
and so it can be quite
a challenge for pastors
00:11:59.31\00:12:03.80
on the Sabbath to be
relational with their families.
00:12:03.83\00:12:06.59
To realize that yes,
they are going to preach,
00:12:06.62\00:12:10.38
yes, they have special things
to do with the congregation
00:12:10.41\00:12:13.83
but their first
congregation as a family,
00:12:13.86\00:12:17.30
they are all families, you know.
00:12:17.33\00:12:18.36
That's good,
that's good way to put it,
00:12:18.39\00:12:19.48
they're first congregation, yes.
00:12:19.51\00:12:22.14
And to realize that--
it's got to start there,
00:12:22.17\00:12:25.72
they got to have
that family experience,
00:12:25.75\00:12:28.48
let the Sabbath be a delight.
00:12:28.51\00:12:31.29
Even if they are driving
around for four churches,
00:12:31.32\00:12:34.51
you know, to
somehow through it all
00:12:34.54\00:12:36.73
over that span of 24 hours
find some joy with the kids
00:12:36.76\00:12:42.80
and with their spouses together
as a family. That's good.
00:12:42.83\00:12:46.33
And you know, we have
to look at the Sabbath
00:12:46.36\00:12:49.11
what are the
reasons for the Sabbath,
00:12:49.14\00:12:50.64
not I like the
way you stated that
00:12:50.67\00:12:52.51
that this is the
time God invited us
00:12:52.54\00:12:55.81
to celebrate His
accomplished works.
00:12:55.84\00:12:59.96
And so we are looking to
Him not only as a creator
00:12:59.99\00:13:03.62
but the one who recreates
us in Chris Jesus. Yes.
00:13:03.65\00:13:06.77
But one of my favorite Sabbath
scripture is Exodus 31:13
00:13:06.80\00:13:10.58
because it says
the Sabbath is a sign
00:13:10.61\00:13:13.63
that it is God who
sanctified us. Yes.
00:13:13.66\00:13:16.69
So that's where we are
really entering into His rest
00:13:16.72\00:13:20.61
knowing God is
going to work in us
00:13:20.64\00:13:22.25
to willing to act
according to His good purpose.
00:13:22.28\00:13:25.05
So if you contrast
and we can get into
00:13:25.08\00:13:27.63
if you get some time here,
how to celebrate the Sabbath
00:13:27.66\00:13:30.92
and make it a joyous occasion.
00:13:30.95\00:13:32.58
But let's look at the other side
of the coin for just a moment.
00:13:32.61\00:13:36.54
For those who come
in and make Sabbath
00:13:36.57\00:13:39.94
a lists of do's and
don'ts and kind of that stop
00:13:39.97\00:13:43.36
and go Sabbath that you
rush right up to the edge of it
00:13:43.39\00:13:46.30
and as it come rolls
in on Friday evening,
00:13:46.33\00:13:49.83
where you say okay, got
to stop what you are doing,
00:13:49.86\00:13:51.59
now you can't do
this, you can't play,
00:13:51.62\00:13:53.21
you cant have any
fun, you got to sit here
00:13:53.24\00:13:55.91
and then you are just
sitting and the kids are waiting
00:13:55.94\00:13:58.62
and watching for the
time that Sabbath should pass.
00:13:58.65\00:14:02.67
Sure, yeah, the list of rules
is kind of like in a marriage,
00:14:02.70\00:14:08.20
in a love relationship you
can have a bunch of rules there,
00:14:08.23\00:14:11.88
there are
principles and non-negotiables,
00:14:11.91\00:14:15.10
you know, there
is no doubt about
00:14:15.13\00:14:17.53
who husband and
wife are going to sleep
00:14:17.56\00:14:19.06
with tonight, each, each other.
00:14:19.09\00:14:20.48
That's non-negotiable
00:14:20.51\00:14:22.64
but not to have a
bunch of rules about that,
00:14:22.67\00:14:24.74
same with the
Sabbath but the Pharisees
00:14:24.77\00:14:28.83
and they were not the bad guys,
00:14:28.86\00:14:30.58
they were the good guys,
00:14:30.61\00:14:31.70
they wore the
white hats so to speak.
00:14:31.73\00:14:34.96
They were mis-intention though,
00:14:34.99\00:14:37.57
they thought they could protect,
00:14:37.60\00:14:39.25
that was the word they used.
00:14:39.28\00:14:40.33
They could protect the Sabbath,
00:14:40.36\00:14:41.75
they came up with something
like 1400 man-made laws.
00:14:41.78\00:14:47.13
You couldn't let spit full
out of your mouth on the grass,
00:14:47.16\00:14:51.07
because you make the grass
grow or work on the Sabbath
00:14:51.10\00:14:54.30
and you couldn't carry
your hanky on the Sabbath.
00:14:54.33\00:14:58.81
If you had a running nose,
00:14:58.84\00:15:00.01
you pinned it to your garment
within reach of your nose
00:15:00.04\00:15:02.83
where you couldn't
carry it, that would be work.
00:15:02.86\00:15:06.16
So all these rules
00:15:06.19\00:15:09.76
but to step back as
we are trying to do here
00:15:09.79\00:15:13.55
and say, why is the Sabbath
there in the first place.
00:15:13.58\00:15:17.07
It's because we are
primarily relational people
00:15:17.10\00:15:22.17
more important than
what we do is who we are.
00:15:22.20\00:15:26.34
Six days shalt thou
labor, and do all thy work.
00:15:26.37\00:15:31.72
But the
seventh-day is the Sabbath,
00:15:31.75\00:15:33.98
the seventh day is that day
00:15:34.01\00:15:35.25
when we realized that
primarily it's not what we do
00:15:35.28\00:15:38.74
but who we are in
relationship to God,
00:15:38.77\00:15:42.35
in relationship to each other.
00:15:42.38\00:15:44.66
So all week long
week we, you know,
00:15:44.69\00:15:47.20
we're doing this, doing that
00:15:47.23\00:15:48.57
out of time, out
of touch too often.
00:15:48.60\00:15:50.82
And of course families
need time to get during the week
00:15:50.85\00:15:53.76
but to have a 24 hour--
00:15:53.79\00:15:55.68
Oh, boy. Yeah.
00:15:55.71\00:15:57.76
If it weren't for
Sabbath, there would be some,
00:15:57.79\00:16:00.54
for some families, there
would be no time to get in
00:16:00.57\00:16:03.48
I mean that's how bad it
gets in this hurried world.
00:16:03.51\00:16:07.62
In your
questionnaire did you find any
00:16:07.65\00:16:11.12
or did you ask or did
they volunteer any ideas
00:16:11.15\00:16:14.86
of how those who really put
up in their children's heart
00:16:14.89\00:16:20.04
that the Sabbath was a delight,
00:16:20.07\00:16:21.86
how they celebrated the Sabbath
00:16:21.89\00:16:23.22
were there any special
traditions or techniques.
00:16:23.25\00:16:26.83
Yeah, I didn't get into that.
00:16:26.86\00:16:28.20
Yeah I didn't get
into that type of detail.
00:16:28.23\00:16:30.89
This is just what,
what emerged from the data
00:16:30.92\00:16:36.29
but one thing that
was a red flag issue was
00:16:36.32\00:16:41.28
it involved the Sabbath
00:16:41.31\00:16:44.12
it was about the age
range of clergy parents,
00:16:44.15\00:16:51.59
whose kids leave the church
00:16:51.62\00:16:54.65
if they began
ministry in their 30's
00:16:54.68\00:16:58.00
it was dangerous
for their families
00:16:58.03\00:17:01.42
because, because
the kids had been used
00:17:01.45\00:17:05.02
to celebrating the
Sabbath on a different way
00:17:05.05\00:17:07.50
suddenly daddy is a pastor,
00:17:07.53\00:17:09.50
he's has got lots of
duties on the Sabbath
00:17:09.53\00:17:12.71
and daddy is not
there for them anymore
00:17:12.74\00:17:15.39
and so it was a
real issue in attrition,
00:17:15.42\00:17:21.51
but those parents
that manage somehow
00:17:21.54\00:17:23.70
and I didn't ask
how, it's just that some
00:17:23.73\00:17:26.38
did manage to still make it
00:17:26.41\00:17:30.19
a joyous
experience for the family.
00:17:30.22\00:17:33.19
You know, so we're talking
00:17:33.22\00:17:34.58
specifically here
about pastors. Yes.
00:17:34.61\00:17:37.80
And I know that Brenda
Walsh, her father was a pastor,
00:17:37.83\00:17:41.63
I know he
pastored multiple churches
00:17:41.66\00:17:43.82
but they all went
with him to each church
00:17:43.85\00:17:46.19
and they sang and they did,
00:17:46.22\00:17:47.66
you know, they
participated in their worship
00:17:47.69\00:17:50.94
and actually up
front on the platform
00:17:50.97\00:17:55.75
so they feel a very special part
00:17:55.78\00:17:58.13
because he
involved them in ministry,
00:17:58.16\00:18:00.42
ministering the kids,
ministering to the people,
00:18:00.45\00:18:03.18
so that's a very, very issue--
00:18:03.21\00:18:08.58
an issue that's
very specific to pastors.
00:18:08.61\00:18:11.35
But now for just
the general people,
00:18:11.38\00:18:14.32
if a pastor's child is going
to perhaps leave the church
00:18:14.35\00:18:20.28
because they had this
very legalistic outlook
00:18:20.31\00:18:26.27
and for Sabbath, it surely--
00:18:26.30\00:18:30.19
that well, it
actually apply to all families.
00:18:30.22\00:18:33.16
What would be your idea of how,
00:18:33.19\00:18:35.89
how would you
celebrate a Sabbath.
00:18:35.92\00:18:37.56
Well, I think I
think it's important
00:18:37.59\00:18:39.57
to get the
Biblical back kind of thing,
00:18:39.60\00:18:42.44
if we can get into
that little deeper,
00:18:42.47\00:18:44.50
which I think will inform
us how about these specifics.
00:18:44.53\00:18:49.49
So there is creation,
00:18:49.52\00:18:51.04
you know, there is no sin
everything is perfect, it's Eden
00:18:51.07\00:18:54.14
but then to think of Jesus
who came as Lord of the Sabbath
00:18:54.17\00:18:59.65
and He came in a
context of legalism
00:18:59.68\00:19:04.15
but He came with freedom,
00:19:04.18\00:19:06.18
so many of His works of healing
and love were on the Sabbath.
00:19:06.21\00:19:11.99
He was showing us
00:19:12.02\00:19:13.05
that the Sabbath is a
time to experience healing,
00:19:13.08\00:19:16.40
not only physically but
emotionally relational healing
00:19:16.43\00:19:20.73
and then the way He died,
00:19:20.76\00:19:24.18
the timing of His
death is highly significant
00:19:24.21\00:19:26.86
regarding the
meaning of the Sabbath.
00:19:26.89\00:19:29.08
And how we view the Sabbath
00:19:29.11\00:19:30.47
and how the Sabbath can be
a blessing instead of a curse
00:19:30.50\00:19:33.20
when it comes to
attrition of kids.
00:19:33.23\00:19:37.06
He died of course
on a Friday afternoon
00:19:37.09\00:19:40.33
and He died with the
words "it is finished."
00:19:40.36\00:19:44.20
And though that word finished,
00:19:44.23\00:19:45.65
He wasn't saying I am finished,
00:19:45.68\00:19:47.14
you know, they finally got me,
00:19:47.17\00:19:48.24
they have been
trying a long time,
00:19:48.27\00:19:49.30
now they got me
where they want me. No, no.
00:19:49.33\00:19:52.33
He is accomplished, Father
we did it, it is finished,
00:19:52.36\00:19:57.66
and then, then He rested
over the Sabbath in the tomb
00:19:57.69\00:20:02.49
and there in
Jerusalem, I got to sit in the--
00:20:02.52\00:20:05.90
in the what some say
it's a Tomb of Christ,
00:20:05.93\00:20:08.95
other say, no,
it's somewhere else but.
00:20:08.98\00:20:11.43
There is a garden
tomb and it was a rainy day
00:20:11.46\00:20:14.45
and nobody, nobody was there.
00:20:14.48\00:20:16.44
I got to be
there for about an hour
00:20:16.47\00:20:18.06
just sit inside that tomb
00:20:18.09\00:20:19.12
and just think
these things over,
00:20:19.15\00:20:20.79
how that Sabbath,
how Jesus is in the tomb
00:20:20.82\00:20:23.31
and that was very significant
00:20:23.34\00:20:25.03
because once
again on the sixth day
00:20:25.06\00:20:28.78
He finished the work just
like our creation. Yes, yes.
00:20:28.81\00:20:32.32
He finished the
work and He rested.
00:20:32.35\00:20:35.09
Now the word rest
does not mean rust,
00:20:35.12\00:20:37.67
it does not mean an activity.
00:20:37.70\00:20:39.78
It means to take a
break to be relational
00:20:39.81\00:20:42.70
and set up to be
utilitarian. Right.
00:20:42.73\00:20:45.70
And so in fact the word Sabbath
literally means cessation.
00:20:45.73\00:20:51.47
And that word cessation is used
like with a war having a truce--
00:20:51.50\00:20:57.77
He maketh wars to cease,
Psalm 46 to make it wars.
00:20:57.80\00:21:02.68
Yeah, to Shabbat to cease,
00:21:02.71\00:21:04.91
so, so, there is a
cessation that the work is done
00:21:04.94\00:21:09.84
and done so well
nothing more can be added.
00:21:09.87\00:21:12.65
God Himself can't
improve on the work
00:21:12.68\00:21:16.19
that is being
rested from. Absolutely.
00:21:16.22\00:21:18.94
And so the
spiritual blessing here for us
00:21:18.97\00:21:24.02
is to realize that when
Jesus Christ on the cross,
00:21:24.05\00:21:28.00
quite now that it is finished,
00:21:28.03\00:21:29.42
He was talking
about our relationship
00:21:29.45\00:21:32.64
through Him with the Father,
00:21:32.67\00:21:34.39
that there is
nothing more to do for us
00:21:34.42\00:21:37.06
to be able to have a
relationship with the Father.
00:21:37.09\00:21:39.82
It was accomplished, yeah. Yes.
00:21:39.85\00:21:41.84
And so when we
on the Sabbath rest,
00:21:41.87\00:21:45.70
when we as the sun
goes down Friday evening
00:21:45.73\00:21:48.60
that's when it starts of course
00:21:48.63\00:21:50.20
and we set aside our
works, they are never done.
00:21:50.23\00:21:54.20
Even the law says,
Six days shalt thou labor,
00:21:54.23\00:21:56.74
and do all thy work, there
is always something left to do.
00:21:56.77\00:21:59.18
There is always a weed
left to pull in the garden
00:21:59.21\00:22:01.07
or some spider web to get
out off the closet, you know.
00:22:01.10\00:22:05.27
I always got a mess
lots of stuff left to do.
00:22:05.30\00:22:08.11
Yeah, yeah but we rest any where
not because our work is done,
00:22:08.14\00:22:13.09
but because
Christ finished his work
00:22:13.12\00:22:16.14
and so that teaches us
the Gospel every Sabbath
00:22:16.17\00:22:21.68
it's a teaching tool of
the Gospel to realize that
00:22:21.71\00:22:24.13
we rest in God not
because of our finished work
00:22:24.16\00:22:29.08
but because of
Christ finish work for us.
00:22:29.11\00:22:33.50
And when we enter into that rest
00:22:33.53\00:22:36.16
when we set a side our
unfinished works and we rest.
00:22:36.19\00:22:40.23
It is a such a not only a
physical relief it is that
00:22:40.26\00:22:44.66
but it is a
spiritual way to realize
00:22:44.69\00:22:47.61
I don't have to
worry about the fact
00:22:47.64\00:22:50.32
that I am not making a
daring off, I am not doing.
00:22:50.35\00:22:54.22
I agree, you know
when I didn't celebrate
00:22:54.25\00:22:57.61
my first
Sabbath in the year 2000
00:22:57.64\00:23:00.13
and the lord took me
00:23:00.16\00:23:01.23
because I didn't
grow up in Adventist
00:23:01.26\00:23:03.67
and I probably
would have not probably
00:23:03.70\00:23:06.53
I was very
resistant to the teaching
00:23:06.56\00:23:09.12
but the lord took
me through a deep study
00:23:09.15\00:23:11.01
and when I discovered the
truth from the bible for my self
00:23:11.04\00:23:15.25
and I celebrated
that first Sabbath,
00:23:15.28\00:23:17.25
it was the first time
00:23:17.28\00:23:19.06
I have ever experienced
freedom from performance.
00:23:19.09\00:23:22.26
All my life I had
performed from a families love,
00:23:22.29\00:23:25.85
I have performed for
gods love thinking that
00:23:25.88\00:23:29.14
if only I can be good enough.
00:23:29.17\00:23:30.43
Because I have this view
of a father as being warned
00:23:30.46\00:23:34.32
that it was ready to just zap me
00:23:34.35\00:23:36.23
any minute if I
did anything wrong,
00:23:36.26\00:23:38.54
and when I discovered that
00:23:38.57\00:23:40.51
what the Sabbath is
all about the it was a day
00:23:40.54\00:23:43.54
when I was to
celebrate recognize
00:23:43.57\00:23:45.60
and it's a sign
that he is the one,
00:23:45.63\00:23:48.02
that's gonna do
this great work in me.
00:23:48.05\00:23:50.54
Aw, it's such a relief.
00:23:50.57\00:23:52.73
I mean it was so glorious,
00:23:52.76\00:23:54.43
I can, first time
in my entire life,
00:23:54.46\00:23:57.84
that I had not had to perform
00:23:57.87\00:24:00.67
and from time to time even now,
00:24:00.70\00:24:04.04
all these years later I will
get into a performance mentality
00:24:04.07\00:24:08.53
and I think we all do it
and as the Sabbath rolls around,
00:24:08.56\00:24:12.20
the Lord frequently has
to remind me of Galatians 3:3
00:24:12.23\00:24:16.77
you foolishly
having begun in the Spirit,
00:24:16.80\00:24:19.55
are you now trying to
perfect it in the flesh
00:24:19.58\00:24:22.08
and it came by the Sabbath rolls
00:24:22.11\00:24:24.00
and you remember, God
has accomplished it all,
00:24:24.03\00:24:29.18
all I have to do is to
learn to surrender to Him,
00:24:29.21\00:24:32.32
being dependent upon Him
00:24:32.35\00:24:34.50
and to know that I can have
a assurance of the salvation
00:24:34.53\00:24:38.34
if I'm in Jesus Christ
because 1 John 5:11 says
00:24:38.37\00:24:41.94
this is the
testimony he who has the son
00:24:41.97\00:24:45.17
has a internal
life, so how beautiful?
00:24:45.20\00:24:47.84
Yeah, now of course
some people will say well,
00:24:47.87\00:24:51.25
well Jesus is my
Sabbath so I don't need the day
00:24:51.28\00:24:54.79
because I have
the person of Jesus
00:24:54.82\00:24:57.26
and so I'll use--
I used to say that.
00:24:57.29\00:24:58.82
Yeah, So, I'll ask them
00:24:58.85\00:25:00.90
okay now is Jesus'
your baptism? That's good.
00:25:00.93\00:25:04.36
Everybody believes in
baptism of one kind or another,
00:25:04.39\00:25:06.77
of course the other
Bible talks about immersion,
00:25:06.80\00:25:08.64
you know that's the Bible way
00:25:08.67\00:25:09.97
but everybody
where they sprinkle
00:25:10.00\00:25:11.89
they do some kind of baptism
00:25:11.92\00:25:13.54
so that okay now if,
if Jesus is your baptism.
00:25:13.57\00:25:17.81
No, baptism is a
symbol of entering into Jesus,
00:25:17.84\00:25:21.04
like that is
exactly what the Sabbath is
00:25:21.07\00:25:23.71
what baptism is once a life time
00:25:23.74\00:25:26.10
is with a Sabbath is every week.
00:25:26.13\00:25:28.58
It's a symbol of
entering into a Jesus,
00:25:28.61\00:25:31.73
Jesus is not my Sabbath,
Jesus is not my baptism,
00:25:31.76\00:25:35.57
baptism and the
Sabbath are both teaching tools
00:25:35.60\00:25:38.90
of entering the
rest of the Jesus Christ,
00:25:38.93\00:25:42.18
the gate way to
enter into Jesus Christ
00:25:42.21\00:25:44.71
in his finished work for us.
00:25:44.74\00:25:46.45
And it certainly help us
to keep up priorities straight
00:25:46.48\00:25:48.58
because if we
work for the Sabbath,
00:25:48.61\00:25:50.05
I think I have just
worked my self today.
00:25:50.08\00:25:52.20
I freely confess I'm workaholic
00:25:52.23\00:25:54.17
and the lord
still working on me.
00:25:54.20\00:25:55.64
And we have to perform it,
00:25:55.67\00:25:57.31
you know and The
Bible said do all the work,
00:25:57.34\00:25:59.69
you know we get paid to perform
00:25:59.72\00:26:01.95
and that what
the Sabbath tells us
00:26:01.98\00:26:04.06
is more important than anything
we do as important as that is,
00:26:04.09\00:26:09.91
more important is
who we are relationally
00:26:09.94\00:26:12.99
and that tells me for example,
00:26:13.02\00:26:14.37
if for example
there is some accident,
00:26:14.40\00:26:16.60
I'm handicapped and
unable to perform anymore
00:26:16.63\00:26:22.31
I'm no lesser person
00:26:22.34\00:26:23.88
because I still I'm still
here I can be relational. Yes.
00:26:23.91\00:26:28.80
I can be relational
even if when I say get older,
00:26:28.83\00:26:31.68
and older you
know and I can do less
00:26:31.71\00:26:34.80
and less of this or that
00:26:34.83\00:26:36.27
am still relationally
00:26:36.30\00:26:39.18
fundamentally a
relational person
00:26:39.21\00:26:40.95
and I still have that
most important significance
00:26:40.98\00:26:46.19
to be rather than
more important than to do.
00:26:46.22\00:26:49.19
Martin, I can't believe
how fast this time went by
00:26:49.22\00:26:52.03
but this is one
of my favorite topics
00:26:52.06\00:26:53.77
so, I want to
thank you again so much
00:26:53.80\00:26:56.39
for coming and joining us
00:26:56.42\00:26:57.98
and we still want to have
you come back again. Thank you.
00:26:58.01\00:27:01.77
Okay, you know
for those who at home,
00:27:01.80\00:27:04.68
just remember this don't
make the Sabbath a bunch of Do's
00:27:04.71\00:27:08.25
and Don't
remember it's a principle
00:27:08.28\00:27:10.67
of being a day of
delight in the Lord,
00:27:10.70\00:27:13.33
finding the delight in the Lord,
00:27:13.36\00:27:15.37
resting in what
he is done for you,
00:27:15.40\00:27:17.62
knowing that he is
not only your creator
00:27:17.65\00:27:19.88
but the one who
is recreating you
00:27:19.91\00:27:21.60
in the reach of
Jesus, knowing he is the one
00:27:21.63\00:27:24.33
that's going to
complete the good work in you,
00:27:24.36\00:27:26.56
he says the Sabbath is a sign
00:27:26.59\00:27:28.45
that I'm no one
that sanctifies you
00:27:28.48\00:27:30.98
so when we come to the lord
00:27:31.01\00:27:33.03
and make the Sabbath day
00:27:33.06\00:27:35.51
a wonderful
experience for our children
00:27:35.54\00:27:38.57
this will help
them stay in the Church
00:27:38.60\00:27:41.53
because they develop a
one-one relationship with Jesus,
00:27:41.56\00:27:45.10
and that's what its all about.
00:27:45.13\00:27:47.04
Now, thank you so
much for joining us
00:27:47.07\00:27:49.11
and may the grace
of Lord Jesus Christ,
00:27:49.14\00:27:51.37
the love of the Father
00:27:51.40\00:27:52.43
and the fellowship
of the holly spirit
00:27:52.46\00:27:54.14
be with you always.
00:27:54.17\00:27:55.53