Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Martin Weber
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000322
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00:31 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and I just want to welcome all
00:34 of you from all around the world wherever you're tuning in from. 00:37 We're so glad that you could join us today. If you are a 00:41 member of a church then you need to hear this program. 00:44 We're going to be talking today about the struggles, the issues 00:49 that pastors have to face with church members and the top five 00:53 problems that pastors have with their churches. You know, it 00:57 shouldn't be this way. Let me read a scripture to you that 01:01 comes from Ephesians chapter 4 and I'm going to actually begin 01:06 with verse 2. Here's what Paul writes to the church at Ephesus: 01:10 Live as becomes you with complete humility and 01:15 unselfishness, with patience bearing with one another making 01:20 allowances because you love one another. Be eager and strive 01:26 earnestly to guard and keep the oneness of the Spirit in the 01:31 binding power of peace. You know God is not the author of 01:36 confusion. He's the author of order and peace. He is the God 01:42 of peace. Here to talk to us today about this topic is a 01:47 returning guest and his name is Martin Weber. Martin, we're so 01:51 gland that you could join us again. Oh thanks. 01:53 Now we established before that you have been a pastor, you have 01:59 been a chaplain for law enforcement. You just finished 02:03 your doctoral studies in divinity and you also are the 02:07 editor for Outlook magazine. Tell me about Outlook. 02:11 Yeah. Outlook goes to 60,000 Seventh-day Adventists in the 02:15 Mid-America region and some people not of our church as well 02:18 So we communicate news and inspiration and it's a lot of 02:22 fun. That's interesting because also 02:25 you've got a lot of titles, Martin. You're also the 02:29 communications director for the Mid-American Region of Seventh- 02:32 day Adventist churches. Yeah. I enjoy that all so much. 02:36 That's wonderful. Well, you've had a life of good service to 02:39 the Lord. Now it's interesting. Today is an interesting topic 02:43 because we are going to be talking about the top five 02:46 problems that pastors have with their churches. Now is this 02:50 going to be the voice of experience talking? 02:53 Yeah, I'm afraid so. Lots of experience, lots of pain. But 02:58 actually the five problems were raised by the software I used. 03:02 So if anybody doesn't like what these problems are, they can 03:06 blame my software. So this is a survey that you did 03:10 and you were gathering this statistical data and so you 03:13 identified how many factors that really churches get upset with 03:17 their pastors and churches and pastors fight about. 03:20 Yeah. Well from these 113 clergy active and retired, with their 03:26 21,000 data points in the soft ware, there are 39 problems 03:31 that churches fight about, 39. 03:33 All right, and the top five are? Just give us the list and then 03:37 we'll go in and break them down. 03:38 Number one: Power struggles among members. Number two: 03:43 Pastors' problems with lay leaders, elders, deacons and 03:48 such. Number three: Worship music debates. Number four: 03:53 Would be life style issues. Number five: General church 03:58 gossip. And that's something that oh 04:01 Lord deliver us all. Put a guard at the doorpost of our mouth. 04:04 Exactly. So that's numbers one through five in order. 04:08 Okay. Let's look at each one of those because these are things 04:12 that we like to address these problems and expose these 04:14 problems so it's something that we can pray about and it's 04:18 something that we can see if we will surrender to the Lord, 04:22 yield to him and let him change. So let's look then at what the 04:27 number one is and that's power struggles with members. 04:29 Yeah. Nothing new of course. Now Jesus had a major issues with 04:34 his disciples on power struggles and of course in the church is 04:38 in a way kind of like a zoo with all kinds of different 04:41 personalities and different people from all different 04:44 backgrounds. I've heard it called a hospital 04:47 for sinners, I've heard it called all things but a zoo, 04:51 I've never really heard. No, now that word is not in the 04:55 Bible but you know it kind of is a picture that comes up and 04:59 same Lord that had the audacity to call Simon the 05:03 Zealot as a disciple, to keep company with Matthew the tax 05:08 collector and expect those two guys to get along with the 05:12 others. He calls us together, not because we all like the same 05:17 football team or we all have the same hobby or personality, 05:21 but people of all different ages and backgrounds get together 05:26 and love each other as he has loved us. But power struggles; 05:30 its' kind of like the picture I get going back to the animal 05:34 metaphor. You know, a kennel; put another dog in a kennel and 05:39 there's the alpha. Territorial fights. Yes, yes, that's right. 05:43 So what are some common power struggles among members? 05:46 Well you know, who's the alpha character. Often it's the person 05:52 with the money. Now in the book of Acts the people took the 05:56 money and they laid it at the apostles feet for the church 06:02 leaders to discuss and talk about. But so often people with 06:06 money think that they own the church, they pull the strings 06:10 and they vote with their dollars and yeah. 06:13 What are some other common struggles. I've seen at church, 06:20 for example, like who's going to be on the platform, who's going 06:25 to maybe lead in worship, who's going to play the piano. 06:30 You see people, and especially when you see someone new and 06:35 talented move into the church and it's like wait, I've always 06:40 been the women's ministry leader; what do you mean, you 06:43 know, I've got to give this up. So there's always these little 06:46 things that are going on that are just purely human isn't it? 06:49 Yes, yeah, yeah. There's the extrinsic desire to have a 06:52 position versus the intrinsic, the service for its own sake. 06:58 And just the alpha stuff that goes one; these constant power 07:03 struggles. Now Jesus back then solved the problem the night 07:08 before he died by washing the feet of the disciples and of 07:12 course a number of Christians, Seventh-day Adventists among 07:17 them, still do foot washing, a few Christians, and that is 07:21 supposed to... if you've got issues with somebody in the 07:25 church, every time there's a communion service with the foot 07:30 washing, you can go to that person and just have that foot 07:34 washing service and humble one's self. Of course, at a prayer 07:38 meeting as well. But too many times people skip the prayer 07:42 meeting to go to the board meeting. They'll fight at the 07:46 board meeting. I have seen people wait outside in the 07:51 hallway during an agape love feast and come in for a business 07:58 meeting, I've seen that happen, where they've got their 08:02 statistics and facts and figures and while the rest of the church 08:07 is having this love feast and communion service they're out 08:12 there and then when they transition into the business 08:14 meeting then they come in and start a fight. 08:18 You know, when you mentioned about Jesus washing the 08:22 disciples' feet, there were two things as you were talking about 08:26 this alpha struggle, if you will. Number one what came to 08:31 my mind is when we are instructed to humble ourselves 08:37 before God and in due time he will exalt us. But the second 08:41 thing was the washing of the feet. That was an attitude of 08:45 servitude. I mean, this was showing our creator, our 08:50 Messiah, who would stoop so low as to wash dirty feet and this 08:56 is something that... I think what we're describing here, the 09:00 people who are these problem makers that have this power 09:05 struggle, church is for them a community of, how do I want to 09:12 say this? Church is for them a cultural thing and so it's not 09:18 really about a relationship with the Lord and they're not walking 09:23 in surrender to God. So that's the problem. 09:27 You know, we all have our insecurities, but in Christ 09:32 we're healed of these things. But so often we're not thinking 09:38 in Christ and so we feel we have turf to defend and such. But 09:42 that is a major, in fact the number one issues that pastors 09:47 report, power struggles among members. 09:49 How does the pastor deal with that? 09:52 I think a pastor prays a lot, cries a lot, talks it over with 09:57 the kids, talks it over with the members and ironically the more 10:02 money there is floating around often the more... I've traveled 10:06 in parts of the world, I'm sure you have as well, where there's 10:10 not so much to fight about and so they pray a lot more. 10:14 And it is true and sad. Not all wealthy people are like this 10:19 but it is true that there are wealthy members who think 10:24 because their tithe or their offerings are covering a big 10:30 portion of the church budget or because they have dedicated the 10:33 money to build the church or whatever 10:35 that they should have more influence 10:36 and that's a sad thing. Yeah and every pastor is so 10:40 grateful for the people who have some means, that are humble 10:44 about it that don't flaunt it and, God bless, I've had a 10:47 number of those wonderful people there that are just there. 10:50 They're ready for the phone call to come and say we've got a 10:54 special need here, could you help with that? But they don't 10:57 try to push their way around. They realize that this is a 11:01 spiritual give, the ability to make these funds, the gift of 11:04 giving is a spiritual gift like any other gift and they see 11:08 it as something from God rather than something to fight about. 11:11 Amen. Okay. So the second problem you reported, your 11:16 statistical data showed, was the problems with lay leaders. 11:21 Now explain that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Often the 11:26 pastor is told, you know pastors come and go, we were here 11:30 before you, we'll be here after you leave and so the lack of... 11:36 It's actually kind of from the 60s, questioning authority. 11:42 Pastors have huge issues with members who are not willing to 11:47 look to them for leadership. 11:49 When we say the lay leaders are we talking about the elders of 11:53 the church, the deacons and deaconesses. So these are the 11:56 people who feel an ownership in the church. Maybe they've 12:00 been in the church for 20 or 30 years and here you have a brand 12:04 new pastor coming in and they are challenging his authority. 12:09 Yeah. Way down the list is pastors having problems with 12:13 other members of the church who are not leaders, but the leaders 12:17 in the church, that's where the problems are. I'm not blaming. 12:21 With a pastoral background it sounds like I'm blaming the 12:26 lay leaders. No, God bless the lay leaders, but the pastor/ 12:32 lay leader relationship causes a lot of conflict in local 12:39 churches. Okay, and how does a pastor deal 12:42 with this? I think a pastor has to have a 12:45 combination, just like Jesus. Jesus didn't get pushed around 12:49 until the last night of his life. A lot of people have this 12:55 picture that Jesus was this kind of like a loose, namby 13:00 pamby, just kind of got pushed around. No, no, Jesus stood up 13:04 for his purpose. He was here on this earth for a purpose. 13:07 God put him there for a purpose and he stood up for that and he 13:11 dialogued with those who challenged him. I think pastors 13:14 need to do the same thing. They need to stand up and dialogue 13:18 but at the same time realize that God 13:20 has give us all two ears and 13:23 one mouth to be willing to listen as well as speak, not 13:28 get pushed around but neither push other people around. 13:34 Now in my particular faith community the personality 13:39 profile of the pastors, they are not generally the pushy type of 13:45 person. They are more the introverted more meek type, 13:50 servant oriented people. So most Adventist pastors are not by 13:57 personality bullies; they're not. They have much more of a 14:05 problem being bullied than being bullies themselves. Of course, 14:07 there are exceptions to that but by and large that's how it is. 14:10 Well, as you said though, a pastor has to remember that... 14:14 I've believed that authority follows responsibility and if 14:20 the church is his responsibility then ultimately he has that 14:25 authority and accountability. Accountability follows authority 14:29 If you've got authority, you're accountable to God. But I guess 14:33 a wise pastor if you're coming in you see there are some 14:36 changes that would be beneficial to the church, you can't just 14:40 come in and change it overnight though. You have to do things 14:43 in steps and stages and let people get used to you. 14:47 There has to be a respect for the heritage of the church; 14:50 there has to be that. Otherwise it's just arrogance coming in 14:55 and change is always rooted in the mission of the church which 15:01 doesn't change with time. Vision does. Vision changes with 15:06 technology, with opportunities, with demographics. Vision 15:11 changes. The vision is how we see ourselves fulfilling our 15:15 purpose which is our mission. Our mission was established 15:18 2000 years ago when the Lord said go into all the world and 15:22 make disciples. That mission hasn't changed. 15:27 Amen. Now one of the things that I've run into with a number 15:30 of pastors that I've had this conversation with, and it's 15:33 interesting because you said this was number three that 15:36 showed up in your statistical data, that pastors are having 15:40 problems and conflicts with their church congregation and 15:45 that is music debate, the worship style. A lot of pastors 15:50 have told me that this is a very difficult situation and 15:54 when they move into a church, I've talked with some pastors 15:59 who are trying to bring them into a little more open style 16:03 and I've talked with pastors who are saying whoa these people 16:07 have gone outside the boundaries of reverence and now they're 16:11 trying to bring them down. So how big is this musical issue? 16:16 Yes. It's huge and it so paradoxical because music is to 16:21 soothe us and music is to help us experience peace and 16:25 experience God and worship and they fight about it worship? 16:32 You know that's so paradoxical. Studies show that the worship 16:37 music wars are actually about deeper issues. It's kind of like 16:42 when a married couple fights about sex. There are deeper 16:46 issues there. It's a barometer of deeper problems in the 16:50 relationship and so worship wars are as a barometer of deeper 16:56 issues. How is it that a church cannot sit together and discuss 17:04 what kind of music inspires us? Am I willing to let music that 17:10 inspires you, it may not touch my heart, but it touches your 17:14 heart, can we make room for that? Or is it because I'm the 17:19 worship leader or I'm the organist or the guitarist or 17:24 whatever, it's got to be my way. 17:26 You know, in my mind I've got what I would think is a great 17:31 model and that would be if we look to the sanctuary where we 17:36 you know... If I were going to run the perfect church service 17:39 in my mind, I'd get all of the announcement out in the front 17:44 so that once you started the worship in music you'd be ready 17:48 to move into the worship in the word without any break but I 17:51 would have it where you're entering the gates with praise, 17:55 praise songs that you're singing about the Lord and then move 17:59 right into what I think of as worship songs are those songs 18:03 that are set to music like Amazing Grace or How Great Thou 18:07 Art is a good one. Because you're singing that directly to 18:11 the Lord and it's supposed to transition you from the outer 18:15 court to the inner court to the Holy Place and then into the 18:19 Holy of Holies as we let the Lord open the Word and let the 18:24 Lord speak to our hearts. So that would be my preference. 18:28 And I think it would be scriptural. 18:31 Yeah definitely. God has made us people of emotion. Jesus said to 18:38 worship his without minds and we do that of course when we 18:42 study the word, but also with our hearts and music touches to 18:47 the heart and to have music that is unabashedly joyous. You know, 18:51 whether it's contemporary or traditional there are joyous 18:54 songs. But then to have the more quiet as well. Now I personally 19:02 define reverence as both. Reverence is respect for the 19:06 presence of God and sometimes that's expressed joyously and 19:10 sometimes more quietly, but it's all reverence. 19:13 Now that's an excellent point. Getting back to your research, 19:18 you found as you analyzed the statistical data that lifestyle 19:23 standards was the fourth greatest problem that pastors 19:26 have with their churches. Now what do you mean by that? 19:30 That's where people are trying to police each other. 19:33 You know, what you eat, what you dress like and everything else. 19:40 Instead of realizing that there isn't a rule for everything you 19:46 do, there are basic principles and church teachings. Every 19:51 church has its own teaching from the Bible that they go to. 19:55 But to try to inflict that upon others and to do it in kind of a 19:59 heartless way where you care more about what people are 20:02 eating than whether they have enough food to eat and what 20:05 they're wearing than whether they have enough to keep them 20:08 warm in the winter. Isn't that a sad situation? 20:12 I tell people that Jesus called us to be fishers of men not to 20:16 be cleaners of the fish. So when they're coming to church, if 20:20 you think that there's something... Of course, we are 20:23 to instruct and according to his teachings show them in the 20:27 word of God in this gentle, loving way in an instructive 20:31 teaching way, but not to single someone out and come and point 20:34 them and say "Here's what the Bible says and you're doing this 20:37 wrong. " We just have got to pray for them and let the Holy 20:41 Spirit lead them into these things, right? 20:42 Yeah, I realize that what is important to us as individuals 20:47 may be a lot because of our own perspective of what the Bible 20:52 is saying. There is some room for interpretation. Take the 20:55 principle of modesty. Obviously there are some nonnegotiables 20:59 around the world, but Godly people in different cultures 21:03 interpret modesty in different ways. You know, some will even 21:07 cover up their ankles all the time while leaving their midriff 21:11 exposed or whatever, different things like that. But to realize 21:16 that one can love the Lord just as much but see life just a 21:21 little bit differently and instead of just trying to police 21:24 the church so that everybody does exactly what I believe 21:30 God wants me to do, just step back in humility and love and 21:36 let other people including our own kids have some freedom 21:42 in some of these lifestyle issues. 21:44 That's an interesting point. All right, let's move on because 21:47 we're running out of time. General church gossip. 21:50 Oh yeah. Have you heard about what sister so and so said? 21:53 Let's pray. Yeah she needs prayer and here's what she needs 21:57 prayer about, you know, she doesn't agree with me. Yeah. 21:59 Oh that is huge. Society now... It used to be back in the 50s 22:06 that people got very upset about someone doing the wrong thing. 22:12 Now society is much more in the younger generation much more 22:16 concerned about whether or not they're honest about what 22:20 they're doing. There's a little more tolerance in there. Now we 22:24 can argue whether I think there's too much tolerance, but 22:30 I think it's swung too far the other direction, but these days 22:34 and with our kids it's much more important to be honest than to 22:39 be perfect. Okay. So when you're talking 22:42 about gossip though how does that tie in? 22:45 Gossip is in the church when people see somebody and they 22:51 put their own interpretation. Okay, let's make it childish 22:55 because it is childish, okay. I saw Sammy hit Johnny on 23:00 purpose, okay. Now I saw Sammy hit Johnny; okay, that's a fact. 23:04 You can video tape that, it's a fact. But on purpose, that's 23:09 a judgment of motive and that's gossip when we're trying to 23:14 assess other people's motives and announcing it and putting 23:18 their own value judgment on what we think they're meaning or 23:22 saying or doing. That's a form of gossip because 23:24 that's judgmental gossip. But there's also the talebearers who 23:29 may be repeating something that's true but they're just 23:32 talebearers. They're going and whispering about everybody's 23:36 problems as well. I know this is something that we all... I think 23:43 that's breaking the ninth commandment personally and 23:45 that's something that I think we're probably more guilty of 23:48 in the church than any other commandment being broken is 23:50 breaking that ninth one. 23:52 Sure in my low moments I mean I can enjoy gossip as much as 23:54 anything else. I think it's a very human thing. 23:58 I hope the Lord catches me on that point very quickly. But to 24:04 be... it's kind of a self righteousness where I have moral 24:09 high ground on you or on somebody else but I can shoot 24:16 down at you. Kids hate this. It ravages a church and it 24:22 destroys the kids. Because like I say, this generation, this 24:27 younger generation has no tolerance for intolerance. 24:31 And you know, this is something that we really haven't made 24:33 clear in this program is that all these issues that we're 24:35 discussing right now have to do when there's these problems in 24:40 the church these are issues that actually drive our children away 24:45 from church as they grow older. If they grow up in a church that 24:50 has this type of bickering and arguing going on this is 24:53 something that affects children, particularly PKs, pastor's kids. 24:58 And of these problems, we talked about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in 25:03 terms of attrition affecting the kids. Criticism of mom, 25:08 criticism of spouse and the kids that is the most devastating 25:12 type of gossip for attrition. 25:17 Then what are some of the other issues beyond the top five? 25:22 Well my data didn't ask for that so I would just be speculating, 25:27 but from my own history just well I saw somebody doing so and 25:32 such on the Lord's day. I saw them doing that and I saw so and 25:36 so with another person. 25:38 Oh I meant what are some of the other, the thirty-three factors? 25:42 Oh, oh, oh. Something that surprised me is church finances 25:46 which is a huge issue in any church that I've ever been a 25:51 part of or led. It was number 14 which is a measure of how 25:55 huge these other things are. As important as finances are, 26:00 it's number 14. All these other things are bigger. 26:03 So these are problems that the pastor has with the church but 26:07 it's also problems that affect the children staying in the 26:11 church. Yes, and you understand, of 26:13 course, I'm not blaming the churches. Many times the pastor 26:17 is more to blame than anybody else, but these are the issues. 26:21 Okay, here's one on the list that was interesting to me, 26:25 reluctance to discipline immoral members. This had a very 26:29 negative affect, I mean this is one of the problems that 26:33 pastors have in their church but if they are reluctant to 26:37 discipline immoral members, this had a big effect on the children 26:41 You've got to practice what you preach and kids know that there 26:45 is such a thing as discipline. They experience it and when 26:48 there is no discipline in the church, that's an issue that 26:52 comes up. Okay. Well we are already out of 26:56 time but I want to thank you so much. You know Martin has 27:00 just finished his doctoral studies and so this is some 27:03 very interesting research and some things that we should 27:07 think about. Martin, thank you so much for coming again. 27:10 For those of you at home, let's purpose in our hearts to do what 27:16 Ephesians chapter 4 verse 3 says to be eager to strive with 27:21 one another and to live at peace with one another and to 27:26 have that unity of the Spirit so that we don't have power 27:31 struggles among members, conflict with lay leaders, 27:34 worship music debates, lifestyle standards that we're trying to 27:39 inflict upon one another, general church gossip and just 27:43 these other problems that so many churches have. We need to 27:47 one in Jesus Christ. May the Lord richly bless you 27:50 till we meet again. |
Revised 2014-12-17