Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn
and I just want to welcome all
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of you from all around the world
wherever you're tuning in from.
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We're so glad that you could
join us today. If you are a
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member of a church then
you need to hear this program.
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We're going to be talking today
about the struggles, the issues
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that pastors have to face with
church members and the top five
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problems that pastors have with
their churches. You know, it
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shouldn't be this way. Let
me read a scripture to you that
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comes from Ephesians chapter 4
and I'm going to actually begin
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with verse 2. Here's what Paul
writes to the church at Ephesus:
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Live as becomes you
with complete humility and
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unselfishness, with patience
bearing with one another making
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allowances because you love
one another. Be eager and strive
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earnestly to guard and keep
the oneness of the Spirit in the
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binding power of peace. You
know God is not the author of
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confusion. He's the author of
order and peace. He is the God
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of peace. Here to talk to
us today about this topic is a
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returning guest and his name is
Martin Weber. Martin, we're so
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gland that you could
join us again. Oh thanks.
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Now we established before that
you have been a pastor, you have
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been a chaplain for law
enforcement. You just finished
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your doctoral studies in
divinity and you also are the
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editor for Outlook
magazine. Tell me about Outlook.
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Yeah. Outlook goes to 60,000
Seventh-day Adventists in the
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Mid-America region and some
people not of our church as well
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So we communicate news and
inspiration and it's a lot of
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fun. That's
interesting because also
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you've got a lot of
titles, Martin. You're also the
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communications director for the
Mid-American Region of Seventh-
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day Adventist churches.
Yeah. I enjoy that all so much.
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That's wonderful. Well, you've
had a life of good service to
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the Lord. Now it's interesting.
Today is an interesting topic
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because we are going to
be talking about the top five
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problems that pastors have
with their churches. Now is this
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going to be the voice
of experience talking?
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Yeah, I'm afraid so. Lots of
experience, lots of pain. But
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actually the five problems were
raised by the software I used.
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So if anybody doesn't like what
these problems are, they can
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blame my software. So
this is a survey that you did
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and you were gathering
this statistical data and so you
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identified how many factors that
really churches get upset with
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their pastors and churches
and pastors fight about.
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Yeah. Well from these 113 clergy
active and retired, with their
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21,000 data points in the
soft ware, there are 39 problems
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that churches fight about, 39.
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All right, and the top five are?
Just give us the list and then
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we'll go in and break them down.
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Number one: Power struggles
among members. Number two:
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Pastors' problems with lay
leaders, elders, deacons and
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such. Number three: Worship
music debates. Number four:
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Would be life style issues.
Number five: General church
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gossip. And
that's something that oh
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Lord deliver us all. Put a guard
at the doorpost of our mouth.
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Exactly. So that's numbers
one through five in order.
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Okay. Let's look at each one of
those because these are things
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that we like to address
these problems and expose these
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problems so it's something
that we can pray about and it's
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something that we can see if
we will surrender to the Lord,
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yield to him and let him change.
So let's look then at what the
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number one is and that's
power struggles with members.
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Yeah. Nothing new of course. Now
Jesus had a major issues with
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his disciples on power struggles
and of course in the church is
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in a way kind of like a
zoo with all kinds of different
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personalities and different
people from all different
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backgrounds. I've
heard it called a hospital
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for sinners, I've heard it
called all things but a zoo,
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I've never really heard.
No, now that word is not in the
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Bible but you know it kind of
is a picture that comes up and
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same Lord that had the
audacity to call Simon the
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Zealot as a disciple, to keep
company with Matthew the tax
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collector and expect those
two guys to get along with the
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others. He calls us together,
not because we all like the same
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football team or we all have
the same hobby or personality,
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but people of all different ages
and backgrounds get together
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and love each other as he has
loved us. But power struggles;
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its' kind of like the picture
I get going back to the animal
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metaphor. You know, a kennel;
put another dog in a kennel and
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there's the alpha. Territorial
fights. Yes, yes, that's right.
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So what are some common
power struggles among members?
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Well you know, who's the alpha
character. Often it's the person
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with the money. Now in the
book of Acts the people took the
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money and they laid it at
the apostles feet for the church
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leaders to discuss and talk
about. But so often people with
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money think that they own the
church, they pull the strings
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and they vote with
their dollars and yeah.
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What are some other common
struggles. I've seen at church,
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for example, like who's going to
be on the platform, who's going
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to maybe lead in worship,
who's going to play the piano.
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You see people, and especially
when you see someone new and
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talented move into the church
and it's like wait, I've always
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been the women's ministry
leader; what do you mean, you
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know, I've got to give this up.
So there's always these little
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things that are going on that
are just purely human isn't it?
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Yes, yeah, yeah. There's
the extrinsic desire to have a
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position versus the intrinsic,
the service for its own sake.
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And just the alpha stuff that
goes one; these constant power
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struggles. Now Jesus back then
solved the problem the night
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before he died by washing
the feet of the disciples and of
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course a number of Christians,
Seventh-day Adventists among
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them, still do foot washing,
a few Christians, and that is
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supposed to... if you've
got issues with somebody in the
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church, every time there's a
communion service with the foot
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washing, you can go to that
person and just have that foot
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washing service and humble one's
self. Of course, at a prayer
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meeting as well. But too many
times people skip the prayer
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meeting to go to the board
meeting. They'll fight at the
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board meeting. I have
seen people wait outside in the
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hallway during an agape love
feast and come in for a business
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meeting, I've seen that
happen, where they've got their
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statistics and facts and figures
and while the rest of the church
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is having this love feast and
communion service they're out
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there and then when they
transition into the business
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meeting then they
come in and start a fight.
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You know, when you mentioned
about Jesus washing the
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disciples' feet, there were two
things as you were talking about
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this alpha struggle, if you
will. Number one what came to
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my mind is when we are
instructed to humble ourselves
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before God and in due time
he will exalt us. But the second
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thing was the washing of the
feet. That was an attitude of
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servitude. I mean, this
was showing our creator, our
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Messiah, who would stoop so low
as to wash dirty feet and this
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is something that... I think
what we're describing here, the
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people who are these problem
makers that have this power
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struggle, church is for them
a community of, how do I want to
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say this? Church is for them
a cultural thing and so it's not
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really about a relationship with
the Lord and they're not walking
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in surrender to God.
So that's the problem.
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You know, we all have our
insecurities, but in Christ
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we're healed of these things.
But so often we're not thinking
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in Christ and so we feel we have
turf to defend and such. But
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that is a major, in fact the
number one issues that pastors
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report, power
struggles among members.
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How does the
pastor deal with that?
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I think a pastor prays a lot,
cries a lot, talks it over with
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the kids, talks it over with the
members and ironically the more
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money there is floating around
often the more... I've traveled
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in parts of the world, I'm sure
you have as well, where there's
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not so much to fight about
and so they pray a lot more.
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And it is true and sad. Not
all wealthy people are like this
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but it is true that there
are wealthy members who think
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because their tithe or their
offerings are covering a big
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portion of the church budget or
because they have dedicated the
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money to build
the church or whatever
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that they should
have more influence
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and that's a sad thing.
Yeah and every pastor is so
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grateful for the people who
have some means, that are humble
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about it that don't flaunt
it and, God bless, I've had a
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number of those wonderful people
there that are just there.
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They're ready for the phone
call to come and say we've got a
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special need here, could you
help with that? But they don't
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try to push their way around.
They realize that this is a
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spiritual give, the ability
to make these funds, the gift of
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giving is a spiritual gift
like any other gift and they see
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it as something from God rather
than something to fight about.
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Amen. Okay. So the second
problem you reported, your
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statistical data showed, was
the problems with lay leaders.
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Now explain that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Often the
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pastor is told, you know pastors
come and go, we were here
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before you, we'll be here after
you leave and so the lack of...
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It's actually kind of from
the 60s, questioning authority.
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Pastors have huge issues with
members who are not willing to
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look to them for leadership.
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When we say the lay leaders are
we talking about the elders of
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the church, the deacons and
deaconesses. So these are the
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people who feel an ownership
in the church. Maybe they've
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been in the church for 20 or 30
years and here you have a brand
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new pastor coming in and they
are challenging his authority.
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Yeah. Way down the list is
pastors having problems with
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other members of the church who
are not leaders, but the leaders
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in the church, that's where the
problems are. I'm not blaming.
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With a pastoral background
it sounds like I'm blaming the
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lay leaders. No, God bless
the lay leaders, but the pastor/
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lay leader relationship causes
a lot of conflict in local
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churches. Okay, and
how does a pastor deal
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with this? I think
a pastor has to have a
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combination, just like Jesus.
Jesus didn't get pushed around
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until the last night of his
life. A lot of people have this
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picture that Jesus was
this kind of like a loose, namby
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pamby, just kind of got pushed
around. No, no, Jesus stood up
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for his purpose. He was here
on this earth for a purpose.
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God put him there for a purpose
and he stood up for that and he
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dialogued with those who
challenged him. I think pastors
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need to do the same thing. They
need to stand up and dialogue
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but at the same
time realize that God
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has give us all two ears and
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one mouth to be willing to
listen as well as speak, not
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get pushed around but neither
push other people around.
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Now in my particular
faith community the personality
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profile of the pastors, they are
not generally the pushy type of
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person. They are more the
introverted more meek type,
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servant oriented people. So most
Adventist pastors are not by
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personality bullies; they're
not. They have much more of a
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problem being bullied than being
bullies themselves. Of course,
00:14:05.03\00:14:07.63
there are exceptions to that but
by and large that's how it is.
00:14:07.67\00:14:10.24
Well, as you said though, a
pastor has to remember that...
00:14:10.28\00:14:14.47
I've believed that authority
follows responsibility and if
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the church is his responsibility
then ultimately he has that
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authority and accountability.
Accountability follows authority
00:14:25.17\00:14:29.50
If you've got authority, you're
accountable to God. But I guess
00:14:29.53\00:14:33.82
a wise pastor if you're
coming in you see there are some
00:14:33.85\00:14:36.91
changes that would be beneficial
to the church, you can't just
00:14:36.94\00:14:40.43
come in and change it overnight
though. You have to do things
00:14:40.46\00:14:43.91
in steps and stages and
let people get used to you.
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There has to be a respect
for the heritage of the church;
00:14:47.54\00:14:50.61
there has to be that. Otherwise
it's just arrogance coming in
00:14:50.64\00:14:55.93
and change is always rooted in
the mission of the church which
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doesn't change with time.
Vision does. Vision changes with
00:15:01.95\00:15:06.52
technology, with opportunities,
with demographics. Vision
00:15:06.55\00:15:11.33
changes. The vision is how
we see ourselves fulfilling our
00:15:11.37\00:15:15.14
purpose which is our mission.
Our mission was established
00:15:15.17\00:15:18.94
2000 years ago when the Lord
said go into all the world and
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make disciples. That
mission hasn't changed.
00:15:22.75\00:15:27.02
Amen. Now one of the things
that I've run into with a number
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of pastors that I've had
this conversation with, and it's
00:15:30.55\00:15:33.43
interesting because you
said this was number three that
00:15:33.47\00:15:36.80
showed up in your statistical
data, that pastors are having
00:15:36.84\00:15:40.14
problems and conflicts with
their church congregation and
00:15:40.18\00:15:45.65
that is music debate, the
worship style. A lot of pastors
00:15:45.69\00:15:50.49
have told me that this is a
very difficult situation and
00:15:50.52\00:15:54.57
when they move into a church,
I've talked with some pastors
00:15:54.60\00:15:59.12
who are trying to bring them
into a little more open style
00:15:59.16\00:16:03.06
and I've talked with pastors
who are saying whoa these people
00:16:03.10\00:16:07.13
have gone outside the boundaries
of reverence and now they're
00:16:07.16\00:16:11.25
trying to bring them down. So
how big is this musical issue?
00:16:11.29\00:16:15.98
Yes. It's huge and it so
paradoxical because music is to
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soothe us and music is to
help us experience peace and
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experience God and worship
and they fight about it worship?
00:16:25.97\00:16:32.00
You know that's so paradoxical.
Studies show that the worship
00:16:32.03\00:16:37.35
music wars are actually about
deeper issues. It's kind of like
00:16:37.38\00:16:42.66
when a married couple fights
about sex. There are deeper
00:16:42.69\00:16:46.75
issues there. It's a barometer
of deeper problems in the
00:16:46.78\00:16:50.77
relationship and so worship wars
are as a barometer of deeper
00:16:50.81\00:16:56.89
issues. How is it that a church
cannot sit together and discuss
00:16:56.93\00:17:04.60
what kind of music inspires us?
Am I willing to let music that
00:17:04.63\00:17:10.21
inspires you, it may not touch
my heart, but it touches your
00:17:10.25\00:17:14.71
heart, can we make room for
that? Or is it because I'm the
00:17:14.74\00:17:19.36
worship leader or I'm the
organist or the guitarist or
00:17:19.39\00:17:23.97
whatever, it's got to be my way.
00:17:24.01\00:17:26.06
You know, in my mind I've got
what I would think is a great
00:17:26.09\00:17:31.82
model and that would be if we
look to the sanctuary where we
00:17:31.85\00:17:36.05
you know... If I were going to
run the perfect church service
00:17:36.09\00:17:39.92
in my mind, I'd get all of the
announcement out in the front
00:17:39.95\00:17:44.04
so that once you started the
worship in music you'd be ready
00:17:44.07\00:17:48.05
to move into the worship in
the word without any break but I
00:17:48.09\00:17:51.31
would have it where you're
entering the gates with praise,
00:17:51.35\00:17:55.33
praise songs that you're singing
about the Lord and then move
00:17:55.37\00:17:59.58
right into what I think of
as worship songs are those songs
00:17:59.62\00:18:03.56
that are set to music like
Amazing Grace or How Great Thou
00:18:03.60\00:18:07.34
Art is a good one. Because
you're singing that directly to
00:18:07.37\00:18:11.16
the Lord and it's supposed
to transition you from the outer
00:18:11.19\00:18:15.36
court to the inner court to
the Holy Place and then into the
00:18:15.40\00:18:19.89
Holy of Holies as we let the
Lord open the Word and let the
00:18:19.93\00:18:24.41
Lord speak to our hearts.
So that would be my preference.
00:18:24.44\00:18:28.89
And I think it
would be scriptural.
00:18:28.92\00:18:31.28
Yeah definitely. God has made us
people of emotion. Jesus said to
00:18:31.31\00:18:38.54
worship his without minds
and we do that of course when we
00:18:38.57\00:18:42.16
study the word, but also with
our hearts and music touches to
00:18:42.20\00:18:46.97
the heart and to have music that
is unabashedly joyous. You know,
00:18:47.01\00:18:51.75
whether it's contemporary
or traditional there are joyous
00:18:51.78\00:18:54.60
songs. But then to have the more
quiet as well. Now I personally
00:18:54.64\00:19:02.40
define reverence as both.
Reverence is respect for the
00:19:02.44\00:19:06.10
presence of God and sometimes
that's expressed joyously and
00:19:06.13\00:19:10.45
sometimes more
quietly, but it's all reverence.
00:19:10.48\00:19:13.16
Now that's an excellent point.
Getting back to your research,
00:19:13.20\00:19:18.22
you found as you analyzed the
statistical data that lifestyle
00:19:18.26\00:19:23.25
standards was the fourth
greatest problem that pastors
00:19:23.29\00:19:26.44
have with their churches.
Now what do you mean by that?
00:19:26.47\00:19:30.21
That's where people are
trying to police each other.
00:19:30.24\00:19:33.90
You know, what you eat, what you
dress like and everything else.
00:19:33.94\00:19:40.38
Instead of realizing that there
isn't a rule for everything you
00:19:40.41\00:19:46.82
do, there are basic principles
and church teachings. Every
00:19:46.85\00:19:51.25
church has its own teaching
from the Bible that they go to.
00:19:51.29\00:19:55.43
But to try to inflict that upon
others and to do it in kind of a
00:19:55.47\00:19:59.58
heartless way where you
care more about what people are
00:19:59.61\00:20:02.80
eating than whether they
have enough food to eat and what
00:20:02.83\00:20:05.55
they're wearing than whether
they have enough to keep them
00:20:05.59\00:20:08.27
warm in the winter.
Isn't that a sad situation?
00:20:08.31\00:20:12.29
I tell people that Jesus called
us to be fishers of men not to
00:20:12.32\00:20:16.58
be cleaners of the fish. So when
they're coming to church, if
00:20:16.61\00:20:20.83
you think that there's
something... Of course, we are
00:20:20.87\00:20:23.00
to instruct and according to
his teachings show them in the
00:20:23.03\00:20:27.18
word of God in this gentle,
loving way in an instructive
00:20:27.21\00:20:31.29
teaching way, but not to single
someone out and come and point
00:20:31.32\00:20:34.64
them and say "Here's what the
Bible says and you're doing this
00:20:34.68\00:20:37.90
wrong. " We just have got to
pray for them and let the Holy
00:20:37.94\00:20:41.13
Spirit lead them
into these things, right?
00:20:41.16\00:20:42.53
Yeah, I realize that what is
important to us as individuals
00:20:42.56\00:20:47.95
may be a lot because of our own
perspective of what the Bible
00:20:47.99\00:20:52.21
is saying. There is some room
for interpretation. Take the
00:20:52.25\00:20:55.88
principle of modesty. Obviously
there are some nonnegotiables
00:20:55.91\00:20:59.50
around the world, but Godly
people in different cultures
00:20:59.54\00:21:03.87
interpret modesty in different
ways. You know, some will even
00:21:03.91\00:21:07.55
cover up their ankles all the
time while leaving their midriff
00:21:07.58\00:21:11.72
exposed or whatever, different
things like that. But to realize
00:21:11.76\00:21:16.63
that one can love the Lord
just as much but see life just a
00:21:16.66\00:21:21.02
little bit differently and
instead of just trying to police
00:21:21.06\00:21:24.78
the church so that everybody
does exactly what I believe
00:21:24.82\00:21:30.48
God wants me to do, just step
back in humility and love and
00:21:30.51\00:21:36.42
let other people including
our own kids have some freedom
00:21:36.45\00:21:42.33
in some of these
lifestyle issues.
00:21:42.36\00:21:44.88
That's an interesting point.
All right, let's move on because
00:21:44.92\00:21:47.89
we're running out of
time. General church gossip.
00:21:47.93\00:21:50.63
Oh yeah. Have you heard about
what sister so and so said?
00:21:50.66\00:21:53.96
Let's pray. Yeah she needs
prayer and here's what she needs
00:21:53.99\00:21:56.97
prayer about, you know, she
doesn't agree with me. Yeah.
00:21:57.00\00:21:59.90
Oh that is huge. Society now...
It used to be back in the 50s
00:21:59.94\00:22:06.61
that people got very upset about
someone doing the wrong thing.
00:22:06.64\00:22:12.16
Now society is much more in
the younger generation much more
00:22:12.19\00:22:16.27
concerned about whether or
not they're honest about what
00:22:16.31\00:22:20.32
they're doing. There's a little
more tolerance in there. Now we
00:22:20.36\00:22:24.10
can argue whether I think
there's too much tolerance, but
00:22:24.14\00:22:30.36
I think it's swung too far the
other direction, but these days
00:22:30.40\00:22:34.71
and with our kids it's much more
important to be honest than to
00:22:34.74\00:22:39.02
be perfect. Okay.
So when you're talking
00:22:39.06\00:22:42.26
about gossip though
how does that tie in?
00:22:42.30\00:22:45.43
Gossip is in the church when
people see somebody and they
00:22:45.47\00:22:51.26
put their own interpretation.
Okay, let's make it childish
00:22:51.29\00:22:55.83
because it is childish,
okay. I saw Sammy hit Johnny on
00:22:55.86\00:23:00.32
purpose, okay. Now I saw Sammy
hit Johnny; okay, that's a fact.
00:23:00.36\00:23:04.71
You can video tape that, it's
a fact. But on purpose, that's
00:23:04.75\00:23:09.13
a judgment of motive and that's
gossip when we're trying to
00:23:09.16\00:23:13.96
assess other people's motives
and announcing it and putting
00:23:14.00\00:23:18.12
their own value judgment on
what we think they're meaning or
00:23:18.15\00:23:22.24
saying or doing. That's
a form of gossip because
00:23:22.27\00:23:24.81
that's judgmental gossip. But
there's also the talebearers who
00:23:24.85\00:23:29.80
may be repeating something
that's true but they're just
00:23:29.83\00:23:32.94
talebearers. They're going
and whispering about everybody's
00:23:32.97\00:23:36.01
problems as well. I know this is
something that we all... I think
00:23:36.04\00:23:43.22
that's breaking the ninth
commandment personally and
00:23:43.25\00:23:45.59
that's something that I think
we're probably more guilty of
00:23:45.63\00:23:48.16
in the church than any other
commandment being broken is
00:23:48.20\00:23:50.70
breaking that ninth one.
00:23:50.73\00:23:52.10
Sure in my low moments I mean
I can enjoy gossip as much as
00:23:52.13\00:23:54.93
anything else. I think
it's a very human thing.
00:23:54.96\00:23:58.32
I hope the Lord catches me on
that point very quickly. But to
00:23:58.35\00:24:04.63
be... it's kind of a self
righteousness where I have moral
00:24:04.66\00:24:09.90
high ground on you or on
somebody else but I can shoot
00:24:09.93\00:24:16.35
down at you. Kids hate
this. It ravages a church and it
00:24:16.38\00:24:22.73
destroys the kids. Because like
I say, this generation, this
00:24:22.76\00:24:27.00
younger generation has no
tolerance for intolerance.
00:24:27.04\00:24:31.04
And you know, this is something
that we really haven't made
00:24:31.07\00:24:33.48
clear in this program is
that all these issues that we're
00:24:33.52\00:24:35.86
discussing right now have to do
when there's these problems in
00:24:35.90\00:24:40.94
the church these are issues that
actually drive our children away
00:24:40.98\00:24:45.56
from church as they grow older.
If they grow up in a church that
00:24:45.59\00:24:50.14
has this type of bickering
and arguing going on this is
00:24:50.17\00:24:53.89
something that affects children,
particularly PKs, pastor's kids.
00:24:53.93\00:24:58.65
And of these problems, we
talked about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in
00:24:58.68\00:25:03.41
terms of attrition affecting
the kids. Criticism of mom,
00:25:03.45\00:25:08.11
criticism of spouse and the kids
that is the most devastating
00:25:08.14\00:25:12.66
type of gossip for attrition.
00:25:12.69\00:25:17.10
Then what are some of the other
issues beyond the top five?
00:25:17.13\00:25:22.40
Well my data didn't ask for that
so I would just be speculating,
00:25:22.44\00:25:27.38
but from my own history just
well I saw somebody doing so and
00:25:27.41\00:25:32.12
such on the Lord's day. I saw
them doing that and I saw so and
00:25:32.15\00:25:36.82
so with another person.
00:25:36.85\00:25:38.51
Oh I meant what are some of the
other, the thirty-three factors?
00:25:38.55\00:25:42.07
Oh, oh, oh. Something that
surprised me is church finances
00:25:42.10\00:25:46.67
which is a huge issue in
any church that I've ever been a
00:25:46.71\00:25:51.55
part of or led. It was number
14 which is a measure of how
00:25:51.59\00:25:55.85
huge these other things are.
As important as finances are,
00:25:55.88\00:26:00.11
it's number 14. All
these other things are bigger.
00:26:00.14\00:26:03.52
So these are problems that the
pastor has with the church but
00:26:03.56\00:26:07.63
it's also problems that affect
the children staying in the
00:26:07.66\00:26:11.69
church. Yes, and
you understand, of
00:26:11.73\00:26:13.32
course, I'm not blaming the
churches. Many times the pastor
00:26:13.35\00:26:17.25
is more to blame than anybody
else, but these are the issues.
00:26:17.29\00:26:21.15
Okay, here's one on the
list that was interesting to me,
00:26:21.19\00:26:25.51
reluctance to discipline
immoral members. This had a very
00:26:25.55\00:26:29.02
negative affect, I mean
this is one of the problems that
00:26:29.06\00:26:33.13
pastors have in their church
but if they are reluctant to
00:26:33.17\00:26:37.17
discipline immoral members, this
had a big effect on the children
00:26:37.21\00:26:41.31
You've got to practice what you
preach and kids know that there
00:26:41.34\00:26:45.41
is such a thing as discipline.
They experience it and when
00:26:45.44\00:26:48.72
there is no discipline in
the church, that's an issue that
00:26:48.76\00:26:52.00
comes up. Okay. Well
we are already out of
00:26:52.04\00:26:56.43
time but I want to thank
you so much. You know Martin has
00:26:56.46\00:27:00.28
just finished his doctoral
studies and so this is some
00:27:00.32\00:27:03.84
very interesting research
and some things that we should
00:27:03.88\00:27:07.27
think about. Martin, thank
you so much for coming again.
00:27:07.30\00:27:10.62
For those of you at home, let's
purpose in our hearts to do what
00:27:10.66\00:27:16.15
Ephesians chapter 4 verse 3
says to be eager to strive with
00:27:16.18\00:27:21.86
one another and to live at
peace with one another and to
00:27:21.90\00:27:26.66
have that unity of the Spirit
so that we don't have power
00:27:26.69\00:27:31.42
struggles among members,
conflict with lay leaders,
00:27:31.45\00:27:34.46
worship music debates, lifestyle
standards that we're trying to
00:27:34.49\00:27:38.96
inflict upon one another,
general church gossip and just
00:27:39.00\00:27:43.05
these other problems that so
many churches have. We need to
00:27:43.09\00:27:47.11
one in Jesus Christ. May
the Lord richly bless you
00:27:47.15\00:27:50.49
till we meet again.
00:27:50.53\00:27:53.75