Hello, I'm Shelley
Quinn and welcome again to
00:00:30.82\00:00:33.57
Issues and Answers.
Today I think we're going to
00:00:33.60\00:00:36.28
have a fascinating program.
We are going to be talking about
00:00:36.32\00:00:40.35
the attrition of young people
from the church. Why do they
00:00:40.38\00:00:44.02
leave the church? I wanted to
read you a scripture that came
00:00:44.05\00:00:47.47
to my mind when I was thinking
about this topic. This comes
00:00:47.50\00:00:51.61
from Jeremiah 3 and verse 19.
This is the Lord speaking and
00:00:51.65\00:00:55.73
listen to what he says. I
thought how I would set you
00:00:55.76\00:00:59.19
among my children and give
you a pleasant land, a goodly
00:00:59.23\00:01:02.59
heritage, the most beautiful
and best among all nations and I
00:01:02.63\00:01:07.97
thought you would call me my
Father and not turn away from
00:01:08.00\00:01:13.01
following me. Can you hear
the Lord's broken heart in that
00:01:13.04\00:01:17.61
scripture. He is saying I have
such a good inheritance for you
00:01:17.65\00:01:21.92
and I've got a plan for your
life and I really didn't think
00:01:21.95\00:01:26.47
you would turn away from me. Why
do people turn away? Why when
00:01:26.50\00:01:30.70
children are raised in a godly
home and in the church, why
00:01:30.74\00:01:34.87
do they leave the faith of their
fathers? Well here to talk with
00:01:34.91\00:01:38.44
us today is Martin Weber
and he comes to us from Lincoln,
00:01:38.47\00:01:42.36
Nebraska. Martin has just
finished his doctoral studies
00:01:42.39\00:01:46.25
and your focus was
on this issue, right?
00:01:46.28\00:01:50.21
Yes. Yes the attrition of clergy
children, specifically within
00:01:50.25\00:01:54.12
the Seventh-day Adventist Church
although the principles apply to
00:01:54.15\00:01:57.99
all clergy children
and other children as well.
00:01:58.02\00:02:00.48
Now you did your studies at
the Carey Theological School and
00:02:00.52\00:02:07.54
is a Baptist School.
Yes. It's on the campus of the
00:02:07.57\00:02:11.07
the University of British,
Columbia in Vancouver and it
00:02:11.11\00:02:14.39
was very interesting to work
through them to study my own
00:02:14.43\00:02:17.68
denomination. That is
interesting. Now why did
00:02:17.71\00:02:20.82
you choose that? Well
they have a specialty with
00:02:20.85\00:02:23.89
reaching to the post modern
world and so I was greatly
00:02:23.93\00:02:27.96
blessed through their
approach and they also were very
00:02:28.00\00:02:31.96
respectful of my faith and we
share, of course, a common faith
00:02:32.00\00:02:35.98
in Christ. So it was
a delightful experience.
00:02:36.01\00:02:38.24
Amen, praise the Lord. Now I
know that in the past you told
00:02:38.28\00:02:41.91
me that you were a chaplain for
the law enforcement. You were
00:02:41.94\00:02:45.54
also a pastor, but
currently you're serving as the
00:02:45.57\00:02:48.98
communications director for the
Mid-American Region of Seventh-
00:02:49.02\00:02:52.35
day Adventist
churches. What does that mean?
00:02:52.38\00:02:55.09
Well it's a big long territory.
It stretches from Canada down to
00:02:55.13\00:02:59.08
Oklahoma, then from the
Mississippi west through the
00:02:59.11\00:03:01.66
the Rockies. So yeah, a
lot of territory to cover.
00:03:01.70\00:03:04.50
So what exactly does the
communications director do?
00:03:04.54\00:03:07.27
Well we communicate the news of
the church. Also if there's some
00:03:07.31\00:03:11.96
scandal or crisis, which, thank
God there hasn't been for the
00:03:11.99\00:03:15.80
last three year since I've been
there, not because I have been
00:03:15.84\00:03:19.62
but you know.
That's how long you've been
00:03:19.65\00:03:21.43
there? I'm
supposed to help deal with
00:03:21.46\00:03:23.21
that. Yes, well praise the Lord.
00:03:23.24\00:03:25.03
So what we're going to be
talking about today is a study
00:03:25.07\00:03:29.59
that was done and this is
with clergy and their children.
00:03:29.63\00:03:33.81
How many people did you study
and tell us a little bit about
00:03:33.84\00:03:37.99
how you went about
gathering this information.
00:03:38.02\00:03:41.04
Well there were actually 222 in
the group that I reached out to;
00:03:41.08\00:03:48.82
clergy parents of children 20
years or older and about 113 of
00:03:48.85\00:03:56.56
them specifically
responded, so almost half.
00:03:56.59\00:04:01.09
All right. What types of
questions did you ask them?
00:04:01.13\00:04:04.55
We had a big long list, 111
questions, everything I could
00:04:04.59\00:04:08.29
think of; everything about the
family background, basic profile
00:04:08.33\00:04:14.36
personality profile and then
experiences regarding the church
00:04:14.40\00:04:19.66
regarding their own family which
was kind of touchy actually.
00:04:19.70\00:04:24.24
Of necessity it was personal
information, highly confidential
00:04:24.28\00:04:29.11
and all that. And then kind
of a summary section as well, so
00:04:29.15\00:04:33.95
lots of information. So
give us, Martin, if you will
00:04:33.98\00:04:38.62
kind of a synopsis and then
let's break it down. Can you
00:04:38.65\00:04:43.22
put your finger on it and say
here are some clear cut reasons
00:04:43.26\00:04:46.95
why children of the clergy
actually leave the faith of
00:04:46.98\00:04:51.24
their fathers, where they leave
the denomination and here's
00:04:51.28\00:04:54.67
some things that are positive
influences, here are some things
00:04:54.71\00:04:58.07
that are negative influences.
00:04:58.10\00:04:59.66
Sure, sure. There are
21,000 data cells in my base of
00:04:59.70\00:05:04.94
information and out of that
come 40 factors, some of them
00:05:04.97\00:05:10.66
positive, some of them negative
as to why the kids growing up
00:05:10.69\00:05:16.35
will leave or stay. Now,
of course, they make their own
00:05:16.38\00:05:20.72
decision. I studied the clergy
parents. The question was, what
00:05:20.76\00:05:26.50
home environment is more likely
to see the children stay versus
00:05:26.54\00:05:32.25
leave. Okay,
give us a clue of what
00:05:32.28\00:05:36.69
those factors are.
Most important of all is the
00:05:36.73\00:05:39.96
relationality of the family.
The family can be like Noah's
00:05:40.00\00:05:44.04
ark sailing through some very
troubled waters with lots of
00:05:44.07\00:05:48.96
dangerous stuff going on and
nasty stuff within the community
00:05:48.99\00:05:53.55
or even the church family. But
if there is relationality and
00:05:53.59\00:05:59.10
love in the pastor's home,
love covers a multitude of sins.
00:05:59.13\00:06:04.59
So when you talk about having
this relationship, it's not just
00:06:04.63\00:06:09.67
parent-to-child but parent-to-
parent and parent-to-God as well
00:06:09.70\00:06:14.71
would you agree?
Oh yeah. It's all this
00:06:14.74\00:06:17.04
relationality versus a kind of
a silence, alienation, or people
00:06:17.08\00:06:23.49
going their own way. For
example, if dad is so wrapped up
00:06:23.52\00:06:26.93
in the church, and I'm saying
dad being the pastor because
00:06:26.96\00:06:31.67
in my survey almost all the
older, in fact, indeed, all the
00:06:31.70\00:06:36.43
older clergy were male. Okay.
If dad was all wrapped up in his
00:06:36.47\00:06:41.71
church and didn't take so much
time with the family, yeah, that
00:06:41.74\00:06:46.95
was a major problem. So
that was one of the major
00:06:46.98\00:06:51.32
things that you could see as
a determining point that might
00:06:51.36\00:06:55.85
make a child then leave
the church as they grew older.
00:06:55.88\00:07:00.11
But you know, that makes perfect
sense because when you think
00:07:00.15\00:07:04.98
about it if a pastor and oh
how we all, it doesn't matter or
00:07:05.02\00:07:09.22
just a parent who is working
hard to make a provision for
00:07:09.25\00:07:13.38
your family, if we are preaching
the gospel to our children and
00:07:13.42\00:07:17.84
we're trying to tell them this
is the way in which to walk but
00:07:17.87\00:07:22.26
we don't model it, if we
don't show that love and that
00:07:22.29\00:07:25.95
graciousness at home, if we're
not there when our children need
00:07:25.99\00:07:30.49
us, then they really even
lose faith in the Bible is quite
00:07:30.52\00:07:36.20
possible because they don't feel
like it's real. Sometimes it's
00:07:36.24\00:07:40.68
called practicing
what you preach isn't it.
00:07:40.71\00:07:42.57
Yeah, yeah. Now it's interesting
one thing here, Shelley, is that
00:07:42.61\00:07:46.32
parents that talked about
praying a lot were actually
00:07:46.35\00:07:52.13
slightly more likely to
see their kids leave and the
00:07:52.17\00:07:57.88
emphasis there is talk. When
they talked a lot about their
00:07:57.92\00:08:04.12
religion and didn't live it
in practice, if the love wasn't
00:08:04.15\00:08:09.86
there, if there was a lot of
talk and not so much love, that
00:08:09.89\00:08:15.57
was a negative factor.
00:08:15.60\00:08:16.97
I have a saying that I use
all the time and that is rules
00:08:17.00\00:08:24.99
without relationship result in
rebellion. You know as children
00:08:25.03\00:08:29.58
are being brought up and
it would seem that it would be
00:08:29.61\00:08:31.71
particularly easy for a pastor's
family to fall into this because
00:08:31.75\00:08:37.64
you know that you are under
the microscope if you will, that
00:08:37.67\00:08:41.83
people are watching you and you
should be modeling what you're
00:08:41.86\00:08:46.63
teaching. But if a parent brings
a child up with a lot of rules
00:08:46.66\00:08:50.88
from the Bible and saying this
is what you can and can't do
00:08:50.91\00:08:54.42
but they don't teach them that
personal relationship with Jesus
00:08:54.45\00:08:58.64
Christ, then it seems that quite
frequently those children rebel
00:08:58.67\00:09:02.83
and is this
something that you found?
00:09:02.86\00:09:04.60
Oh yes, major, major. You
touched on a couple of things
00:09:04.64\00:09:08.28
there. First of all, with the
rules. The parents' conservatism
00:09:08.32\00:09:12.77
like if they were personally
strict, that was not a factor
00:09:12.80\00:09:17.25
one way or another. It was not
a negative if dad was kind of
00:09:17.29\00:09:20.85
real conservative and strict
with himself as long as he was
00:09:20.89\00:09:24.89
nice about it and loving about
it and he and mom didn't try to
00:09:24.92\00:09:30.04
impose it on the kids. Freedom
for the kids to discover God for
00:09:30.08\00:09:35.17
themselves was an extremely
major factor in escaping
00:09:35.20\00:09:41.11
attrition. I've
got all these little
00:09:41.14\00:09:45.68
sayings, but the other thing
I tell people is that you know
00:09:45.72\00:09:49.57
we don't try to beat somebody
over the head with a violin to
00:09:49.61\00:09:53.31
convince them how beautiful the
music is, yet sometimes parents
00:09:53.35\00:09:57.02
and all of us will take
the Bible and just be beating
00:09:57.05\00:09:59.79
somebody over the head
just to try to convince them how
00:09:59.83\00:10:02.50
beautiful God's word is. It just
doesn't work when you stuff it
00:10:02.54\00:10:06.29
down their throats does it?
00:10:06.32\00:10:07.69
Right. Every generation has to
discover God themselves and the
00:10:07.72\00:10:12.23
parents that a lot of the kids
were younger modeled and taught
00:10:12.27\00:10:16.35
but then as the kids got to be
teens stepped back and let the
00:10:16.38\00:10:20.76
kids have some freedom in
experiencing God for themselves.
00:10:20.79\00:10:25.92
Those were the homes where the
kids tended to stay and I think
00:10:25.95\00:10:31.05
this is consistent with
scripture where the Spirit of
00:10:31.08\00:10:32.99
the Lord is there is liberty.
Now there's a little interesting
00:10:33.03\00:10:40.25
side light in here that I could
mention perhaps. There were 31
00:10:40.28\00:10:47.47
factors of issues with the
church and with people in the
00:10:47.50\00:10:51.37
church that I asked the parents
to talk about and I compared of
00:10:51.41\00:10:55.64
course the homes where the kids
tended to stay versus the homes
00:10:55.67\00:11:01.50
where the kids tended to leave.
One of these had to do with
00:11:01.54\00:11:07.85
movies and church standards.
Now both parents, all pastoral
00:11:07.89\00:11:13.34
parents were kind of against
going to the movies. But parents
00:11:13.37\00:11:18.59
whose kids tended to stay
were more likely to approve home
00:11:18.63\00:11:23.66
videos, even home videos that
might include some violence or
00:11:23.70\00:11:28.59
nudity. Now on the surface that
seems, whoa there, what's going
00:11:28.63\00:11:33.35
on? But actually as you look
at the data it's the parents are
00:11:33.38\00:11:38.36
recognizing that whereas when
you go to a theater it's just
00:11:38.39\00:11:42.77
there, you can't do anything
about what's on the screen
00:11:42.81\00:11:47.12
except walk out. But at home
there's such a thing as the fast
00:11:47.16\00:11:50.36
forward button and so if
you're watching a video that's
00:11:50.39\00:11:54.47
basically a good video but
some thing bad comes on you just
00:11:54.50\00:11:58.93
skip on to the next section.
The freedom to trust their
00:11:58.96\00:12:04.55
older kids to do that and to
teach them that it's not just
00:12:04.58\00:12:10.50
clear cut all good or all bad.
There are nuances in life and
00:12:10.53\00:12:16.00
you learn principles to make
mature godly decisions and to
00:12:16.04\00:12:20.84
trust the teenagers to
make those decisions. That was a
00:12:20.87\00:12:25.64
factor. So
essentially the positive
00:12:25.67\00:12:30.14
influences were those parents
who had that relationship with
00:12:30.18\00:12:33.34
the Lord who taught their
children a relationship with the
00:12:33.37\00:12:37.80
Lord but who were not majoring
in the minors. They actually
00:12:37.83\00:12:42.38
gave them some freedom to
explore and I love the word you
00:12:42.41\00:12:46.93
used, experience God
for themselves. So they were
00:12:46.96\00:12:50.94
training them up in the way
they should go but once they got
00:12:50.98\00:12:54.14
those training wheels on they
let them kind of go a little bit
00:12:54.17\00:12:57.30
instead of just constantly
holding on. What about the
00:12:57.33\00:13:03.30
amount of time. You know, we're
talking about pastors and their
00:13:03.34\00:13:07.53
families. Being a pastor is a
very demanding job as you well
00:13:07.57\00:13:11.50
know because you've been one.
What about the amount of time
00:13:11.54\00:13:15.38
that parents spent with their
children? Was this a positive
00:13:15.41\00:13:19.22
influence? Yes it
was and it wasn't just
00:13:19.25\00:13:23.37
vacation. Vacations were a
factor but more important was
00:13:23.41\00:13:29.68
just the daily grind of life.
Was dad available? Was there fun
00:13:29.72\00:13:36.28
in the family during the week?
And even more that time set
00:13:36.31\00:13:42.80
aside; now we're going to have
fun. We've had a real tough week
00:13:42.84\00:13:47.67
but now we're going to... All
week long in the midst of all
00:13:47.71\00:13:52.46
the duties and burdens of life
the parsonage can be a fun place
00:13:52.49\00:13:56.37
There can be laughter and fun
throughout and those families
00:13:56.41\00:14:00.51
that somehow managed to do that
tended much more to keep their
00:14:00.55\00:14:04.59
kids than those who kind of
quantified or compartmentalized
00:14:04.63\00:14:08.64
joy. I can see
that I'm guilty myself
00:14:08.67\00:14:14.67
in my marital relationship that
there are times that when things
00:14:14.71\00:14:20.94
become so overwhelming in
the demands of ministry that you
00:14:20.97\00:14:24.95
can say well we're going to put
this afternoon aside for some
00:14:24.98\00:14:28.93
fun time but everything else is
compartmentalized. So I can see
00:14:28.97\00:14:32.89
that that would be a difficult
thing. What are the most
00:14:32.92\00:14:36.76
negative influences? What were
some of the causative factors
00:14:36.80\00:14:41.87
that resulted in
children leaving the church?
00:14:41.90\00:14:45.92
Huge in negativity was if there
was a difference in expectation
00:14:45.96\00:14:52.54
because they were PKs (pastor's
kids). Like because dad's a
00:14:52.58\00:14:57.32
pastor therefore you can't
wear this or you can't do that.
00:14:57.35\00:15:02.29
Whoa, that was huge. That
was a hugely negative factor.
00:15:02.32\00:15:07.23
And what are some of the others?
00:15:07.26\00:15:09.62
Some of the others were if there
was an attack upon the pastoral
00:15:09.66\00:15:19.70
family which is, of course,
predictable. When mom was
00:15:19.73\00:15:25.76
attacked in the church. That
was bad for the kids, very bad.
00:15:25.80\00:15:32.21
But whether or not there were
problems in the general in the
00:15:32.24\00:15:36.97
church was not a factor one way
or another; statistically it was
00:15:37.01\00:15:41.66
not a factor. But whether some
how whatever was going on in the
00:15:41.69\00:15:45.33
board room, whatever fights were
going on or arguments in the
00:15:45.36\00:15:49.05
board room, if the church
remained still a nurturing place
00:15:49.09\00:15:52.71
for the kids; maybe there was a
youth director that really loved
00:15:52.75\00:15:56.71
the kids or some grandma or
grandpa in the faith that really
00:15:56.74\00:16:01.70
loved the kids, that would
overcome other problems in the
00:16:01.73\00:16:07.77
church. But when the overall
church environment was not
00:16:07.81\00:16:13.79
nurturing, that was another
highly negative factor in the
00:16:13.83\00:16:19.78
church. Totally
understandable. We were
00:16:19.81\00:16:23.08
coming back from the GYC which
is the General Youth Conference
00:16:23.12\00:16:27.75
and there was a young lady who
had attended and was stranded
00:16:27.78\00:16:32.38
at the St. Louis airport.
Was that up in Minneapolis?
00:16:32.41\00:16:34.90
Yes it was. Yeah
we wrote about that...
00:16:34.93\00:16:37.15
No actually this is the one from
California, this was several
00:16:37.19\00:16:42.17
years back. Sacramento. Yes
Sacramento. Yeah I was there
00:16:42.20\00:16:45.30
too. In Sacramento. So we
gave this young lady a ride back
00:16:45.34\00:16:48.95
from the airport. The car was
just stuffed with people so she
00:16:48.99\00:16:53.49
was kind of in the hatch almost
back in the back. I was sitting
00:16:53.53\00:16:58.00
in the back seat and I turned
around and just looked back
00:16:58.03\00:17:00.11
at her and I asked her; I said,
how can we keep our young people
00:17:00.15\00:17:04.15
in the church? She said, quit
trying to entertain us and give
00:17:04.19\00:17:08.80
us a challenge. Did you find
in any of your research that
00:17:08.84\00:17:12.84
some of the young people felt
like they left the church just
00:17:12.87\00:17:16.84
because they couldn't
find their place in the church?
00:17:16.87\00:17:21.31
Yes, yes. Just trying to
entertain the kids is not
00:17:21.35\00:17:25.93
enough. There has to be a
missionality. Those families
00:17:25.97\00:17:30.48
where the kids were able to see
themselves as part of a mission
00:17:30.52\00:17:35.65
that was
definitely a keeping factor.
00:17:35.68\00:17:40.28
You know, even speaking of that
I always tell people that one of
00:17:40.32\00:17:44.11
the best things you can do for
your children is take them on a
00:17:44.15\00:17:49.01
mission trip because it is
life changing. But it is so easy
00:17:49.05\00:17:53.39
when you're in ministry
full time... You know I want to
00:17:53.43\00:17:58.59
speak to the church right now.
We have to remember that God
00:17:58.63\00:18:03.76
set it up so that there
would be pastors, teachers,
00:18:03.79\00:18:06.64
evangelists, prophets and
what am I leaving out, anyway.
00:18:06.68\00:18:12.06
The point is God set the pastors
up in the and the plan for
00:18:12.09\00:18:17.01
ministry up so that they could
train all of us lay people and
00:18:17.05\00:18:21.62
that we can go out and do the
work. We have a tendency, and
00:18:21.65\00:18:25.94
did you find this even in your
own church, to think that the
00:18:25.98\00:18:30.20
pastor is supposed to do it all.
He's supposed to do the hospital
00:18:30.24\00:18:33.89
visitation, he's supposed to do
the Bible studies. Some people
00:18:33.92\00:18:37.84
think that the pastor is failing
as a pastor if he's not out
00:18:37.88\00:18:42.10
doing all of these things and
some pastors get caught up in
00:18:42.14\00:18:46.58
this mentality, the expectation
of the church, and they don't
00:18:46.61\00:18:51.02
spend enough time with their
own family. They have their
00:18:51.05\00:18:54.90
priorities wrong. What kind of
a factor, if it's not God first
00:18:54.94\00:18:59.01
then the family and then the
ministry, if this gets out of
00:18:59.04\00:19:02.62
order where it's ministry
before God or before family,
00:19:02.66\00:19:06.17
what kind of an influence did
this have on children? Did you
00:19:06.21\00:19:10.76
find in your research that this
affected anyone in a negative
00:19:10.80\00:19:15.32
way that might make
them leave the church?
00:19:15.35\00:19:18.24
Yeah, yeah. The pastors had to
look at their families as their
00:19:18.28\00:19:22.90
prime ministry. And I think for
all of us whether pastors or not
00:19:22.93\00:19:26.89
marriage is a ministry. You know
the family is a ministry. It's a
00:19:26.93\00:19:30.86
basic building block of a
local church. So ministry starts
00:19:30.89\00:19:35.49
there but of course it doesn't
end there and the pastor is not
00:19:35.53\00:19:40.10
the circus performer for
the church or for the family but
00:19:40.13\00:19:44.01
rather and empowerer, an
equipper. If the kids could
00:19:44.04\00:19:49.97
experience purpose, they could
put up with a lot of stuff going
00:19:50.01\00:19:56.54
on in the church. If they
through it all could experience
00:19:56.57\00:20:00.44
nurture and purpose and fun.
I'm not talking about fun in
00:20:00.48\00:20:04.94
terms of ice cream fun, well
that too, but joy, you know, joy
00:20:04.98\00:20:09.83
So that they saw church as
something that looked forward to
00:20:09.86\00:20:15.56
attending. Yes. Now specifically
I'm not sure that I got the
00:20:15.60\00:20:20.07
answer that I was looking
for. The amount of time that the
00:20:20.11\00:20:24.51
pastor spends with their family,
how big of an influence was that
00:20:24.55\00:20:28.73
I didn't quantify that. I didn't
try to quantify that. I had a
00:20:28.77\00:20:33.33
question in there that asked for
days off with kids and that was
00:20:33.37\00:20:37.42
not a factor statistically which
kind of surprised me because
00:20:37.46\00:20:41.83
I thought that having days
set apart, you know, father/son,
00:20:41.86\00:20:45.75
father/daughter would be
statistically significant, but
00:20:45.78\00:20:49.62
it wasn't. What was more
important that throughout life
00:20:49.65\00:20:53.46
not to have this
compartmentalized thing,
00:20:53.49\00:20:55.26
but throughout life to have this
relationality, this joy in the
00:20:55.30\00:20:59.96
family. You know,
Martin, you just said
00:20:59.99\00:21:02.52
something that's flying in the
face of pop psychology because
00:21:02.56\00:21:05.55
they talk about quality
time compared to it's not about
00:21:05.58\00:21:09.55
quantity but quality. But now
I've seen new research coming
00:21:09.59\00:21:12.93
out and they're saying, hey
we're rethinking all of this.
00:21:12.97\00:21:17.69
Kids want you present in their
life and it isn't just quality
00:21:17.72\00:21:21.72
time but it's the time that
you're just side by side in the
00:21:21.76\00:21:25.46
same room. You may not even
be talking, but you're there if
00:21:25.49\00:21:29.11
they need a quick answer from
you or very important like to
00:21:29.14\00:21:33.07
eat dinner together and things
like this. So what you found is
00:21:33.11\00:21:37.22
that it wasn't those vacation
days or special dates set aside
00:21:37.26\00:21:41.29
so much as it was just being
present for your children day
00:21:41.33\00:21:45.33
by day. Exactly,
and in that family
00:21:45.36\00:21:48.76
togetherness, a big factor, a
big factor, in fact this came up
00:21:48.80\00:21:54.03
twice in a major way in the data
was being open about problems
00:21:54.06\00:21:59.22
in the church. Okay. A highly
negative factor in attrition was
00:21:59.26\00:22:04.47
trying to block the kids from
knowledge of problems in the
00:22:04.50\00:22:09.08
church, or if they became
aware to just not talk about it;
00:22:09.12\00:22:13.72
trying to shield them, trying
to shield the kids was a major
00:22:13.76\00:22:18.33
factor in attrition.
That's interesting, that's a
00:22:18.36\00:22:22.18
really interesting comment.
00:22:22.21\00:22:23.58
Now which doesn't mean that
everything that everybody does
00:22:23.61\00:22:28.24
was common knowledge in the
house but age appropriate within
00:22:28.28\00:22:33.30
boundaries of confidentiality.
But families that were able to
00:22:33.34\00:22:39.15
process the pain together, like
this is a rose garden, yeah, but
00:22:39.19\00:22:44.97
there are thorns in a rose
garden. And one pastor in fact
00:22:45.00\00:22:49.86
told me, he said, it was no
secret to the kids that there
00:22:49.90\00:22:54.69
was a particular person in the
church that was causing problems
00:22:54.73\00:22:59.09
and the kids knew it. I couldn't
deny it and I didn't try to be
00:22:59.12\00:23:03.13
dishonest about it. But instead
every time there was a board
00:23:03.17\00:23:08.21
meeting my wife gathered the
kids around me and the four of
00:23:08.24\00:23:12.38
them prayed for me. They
laid their hands on me and they
00:23:12.42\00:23:16.53
prayed for me that God
would help me deal with this
00:23:16.56\00:23:18.49
particular person at the board
meeting and that pastor, that
00:23:18.53\00:23:23.52
pastor, all three kids are
adults and they are thriving
00:23:23.55\00:23:27.56
in Christ and in the church. But
yeah they didn't try to block
00:23:27.60\00:23:31.79
out or pretend, but they
processed. They weren't in
00:23:31.82\00:23:36.07
denial, they didn't excuse or
enable, but they said well okay
00:23:36.11\00:23:39.86
this is what's going on. Let's
talk about it and they processed
00:23:39.89\00:23:43.61
it and the kids
could deal with it.
00:23:43.64\00:23:45.01
You know, it's been my
experience that children are
00:23:45.04\00:23:47.46
innately intuitive and they pick
up things. So it would seem to
00:23:47.50\00:23:52.77
me, if I'm interpreting
this correctly, but what you're
00:23:52.80\00:23:57.64
saying is that when parents
try to cover up, kids feel that
00:23:57.67\00:24:01.46
disconnect. They know,
they recognize there's something
00:24:01.49\00:24:04.39
going on and they don't feel
like there's this openness and
00:24:04.42\00:24:07.29
this sharing between
the parents and them.
00:24:07.32\00:24:10.88
In fact, it leaves the
impression that it's so bad
00:24:10.92\00:24:14.16
it can't even be talked about
and they wonder what in the
00:24:14.20\00:24:16.88
world is going on that this is
so bad that everybody has to be
00:24:16.92\00:24:20.46
in denial about. But
when parents are able to be
00:24:20.49\00:24:24.66
realistic and to bridge over to
something that we talked about
00:24:24.70\00:24:29.00
previously, realistic about
their own struggles. When mom
00:24:29.03\00:24:35.17
and dad try to pretend that they
are Moses on Mt. Sinai all the
00:24:35.21\00:24:39.94
time, instead of saying, you
know kids, we struggle too and
00:24:39.98\00:24:44.68
they are willing to be
appropriately vulnerable about
00:24:44.71\00:24:48.29
their own spiritual issues, the
churches issues and their own
00:24:48.33\00:24:52.05
issues. These were the parents
whose kids tended to stay.
00:24:52.08\00:24:56.77
But like I mentioned where
mom and dad talked about prayer,
00:24:56.80\00:25:03.09
instead of praying. Yeah. Maybe
they did pray but prayer in
00:25:03.13\00:25:08.26
itself... talking about God
in and of itself, talking about
00:25:08.29\00:25:13.10
prayer in and of itself was not
statistically different among
00:25:13.14\00:25:17.92
both groups. But what was
different was being real about
00:25:17.95\00:25:23.27
it. I can't
believe that our time is
00:25:23.30\00:25:25.78
already gone but in the minute
that we have left, what advice
00:25:25.82\00:25:30.30
would you give to parents
that would help them keep their
00:25:30.34\00:25:34.79
children in the faith?
00:25:34.82\00:25:36.30
I would say based on the data
to be loving, to realize that
00:25:36.34\00:25:44.65
what's going on in the parsonage
is more important than anything
00:25:44.69\00:25:49.31
happening anywhere else and a
parsonage can be a Noah's ark.
00:25:49.34\00:25:53.08
There can be fun in the family,
there can be joy, there can be
00:25:53.11\00:25:56.82
purpose, there can be
togetherness, we can be open
00:25:56.85\00:25:59.47
about things. We're a team
together and you've got problems
00:25:59.51\00:26:03.80
we've got problems. Just as we
discover God for ourselves, you
00:26:03.84\00:26:08.10
discover God for yourselves.
We'll give you some space.
00:26:08.13\00:26:10.85
We're not going to expect you
to be super saints just because
00:26:10.89\00:26:14.25
you're pastor kids.
00:26:14.28\00:26:15.65
That's good. You know I think
that's very good advice for all
00:26:15.68\00:26:19.13
parents. When we really think
about it what we have to do
00:26:19.16\00:26:22.72
with our children is model a
behavior for them. Train up a
00:26:22.75\00:26:26.24
child in the way they should go.
When they're old they will not
00:26:26.28\00:26:29.86
depart from it. But part of
that training isn't just verbal
00:26:29.90\00:26:33.79
instruction. It's what we
live out in our lives. I want to
00:26:33.82\00:26:37.68
encourage everyone that's
watching today, even though
00:26:37.71\00:26:40.91
we've been taking about
PKs, pastors kids, this is no
00:26:40.94\00:26:44.07
different than your children,
your family. Even if you old
00:26:44.11\00:26:48.78
enough that maybe your family's
grown or if you don't have
00:26:48.81\00:26:53.10
children of your own, you can
make a positive influence on the
00:26:53.13\00:26:57.39
children at your church by
showing them what it's like to
00:26:57.42\00:27:01.22
have a personal relationship
with the Lord by helping them
00:27:01.26\00:27:04.72
have some joy and understand
how to have joy in the Lord.
00:27:04.76\00:27:08.19
You know it has been
lovely having you here, Martin.
00:27:08.22\00:27:11.10
We want to thank you so much and
we'd like you to come back and
00:27:11.14\00:27:14.31
discuss some more
about these things.
00:27:14.34\00:27:16.37
Absolutely. I'll be thrilled.
00:27:16.40\00:27:18.75
Oh wonderful. Now for those of
you at home remember that these
00:27:18.79\00:27:22.61
little ones are watching us
and as they grow older they're
00:27:22.65\00:27:26.74
watching us even more closely.
Sometimes we think these teens
00:27:26.77\00:27:30.27
are off in a world of their own.
Let me tell you, they don't miss
00:27:30.31\00:27:34.55
a lick. They see everything that
we're doing. So let's be real
00:27:34.58\00:27:38.79
with them and be real with
god and teach them how to find
00:27:38.82\00:27:42.84
the love of God on their own.
Now may the grace of our Lord
00:27:42.88\00:27:46.47
Jesus Christ, the love of the
Father, and the fellowship of
00:27:46.50\00:27:50.06
the Holy Spirit be with
you and your entire family.
00:27:50.09\00:27:53.20
Thanks for joining us.
00:27:53.23\00:27:57.60