Hello, I'm Shelley
Quinn and welcome again to
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Issues and Answers.
You know, each time that we
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begin I like to start with a
scripture and share a thought
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with you that will go along with
the program. Today we're going
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to be talking about how the
wounds of our past actually help
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shape us and move us in
a certain direction and how
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there's an answer to self-
destructive behavior. But let me
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read what I think is the answer.
It comes from Romans 12 and
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verse 2. Paul writes to
the Romans, he says: Be not
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conformed to this world but be
transformed by the renewing of
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your mind that you may prove
what is the good, acceptable
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and perfect will of God.
Today we're going to talk about
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how those issues from the past,
from the early past, can shape
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our lived, but how God can help
turn that around. I'm very happy
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to welcome back to the program
Drs. Ron and Nancy Rockey.
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So good to have you back again.
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Thank you. And you
all are family life and
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now I'm not going to say that
right, Family Life and Renewal
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Yes. Okay, Family
Life and Renewal educators.
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See we took your Bible
text and put it in our title.
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You did didn't you. Tell us
a little bit about what you do.
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You both have your PhDs
in psychology and counseling.
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You also have a master's degree
in family therapy both of you.
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You know what, they
have a master's degree from a
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university but they've also
got THE Master's degree because
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they went through so many
negative life experiences and
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God helped turn that all
around and that's where the real
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education came isn't it?
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Yes, absolutely and that text
you read there renewing of the
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mind, that's the philosophy,
that's the core issue of Life
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Renewal Institute. It's not
renewing behaviors. It's about
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renewing the mind; having
a new mind and a new spirit.
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We have discussed before
how even in the womb there are
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things that affect our thought
processes and brain mapping in
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the womb and in early childhood.
But what we're going to be
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talking about today is how those
wounds determine the direction
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that we go. Now talk about
the Y factor for just a moment.
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Well the Y factor is simply a
graphic that has key words on it
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The graphic is shaped
like a capital letter Y.
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That's why we
call it the Y factor.
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And that by the way is available
to 3ABN viewers. They can
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download both the graphic and
the writing that explains the
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whole thing off of our web site.
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And what is your website?
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www. yourlri. com Lri
stands for Life Renewal
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Institute www.yourlri.com
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And they can download this. Now
what you're saying then is the
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wounds of the past help shape
our, do we want to use the word,
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esteem, self-esteem. Some people
get so touchy about this and we
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believe it should be Christ
esteem. But there is such a
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thing as self-esteem.
Well it's self-worth.
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Self-worth. Our
self-worth whether it be
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good or not feeling so good.
Nancy, well both of us, had
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issues with self-worth.
We did. And you know what?
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Our issues, yours and mine,
began in the garden of Eden with
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Adam and Eve when they were
wounded. How were they wounded?
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Because God's
enemy lied to them.
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So you're saying
that sin always wounds us.
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Absolutely. That's right.
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Right after they got kicked out
of the garden of Eden it says in
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the Bible that Adam lays with
his wife and she conceived with
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Cain and she says, And
the Lord has given me...
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With the help of the Lord I
have me. What's that about? Me.
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Self has already kicked in.
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Not Adam and I
have conceived a child.
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But the Lord has
given me. I have.
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I see your point. So
right away she became self
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centered. But what happened in
the garden originally when Eve
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took of the fruit that Satan
lied to her about and she ate,
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then she gave to her husband
Adam and he ate, and then when
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Adam ate the eyes of them both
were opened and they saw that
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they were naked meaning they saw
they were guilty. They had done
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a wrong thing. And we
know, science tells us, that
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unconfessed guilt turns to shame
Guilt says I did a wrong thing.
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Shame says I am wrong. There's
something innately wrong about
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me. And we know this happened
to Adam and Eve because first
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they covered themselves with fig
leaves and then they went hiding
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in the shrubbery. And God had to
come looking for them. What is
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this thing you have
done? What is he looking for?
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He already knew. And why does
he ask us to confess. He already
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knows. Because he
knows how good it is
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for us to confess.
That's exactly correct.
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I always like to add when
you said that the devil to them,
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first he did something that's
even more devious in my mind.
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That is he first gets them
to doubt God's word. He always
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wants to plant that seed of
doubt and try to interrupt our
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relationship with the Lord or
keep us from coming close to the
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Lord. Then we buy into the lie.
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Our doubt creates access for
Satan's agenda for our minds.
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So that's a beautiful thought
the way you said that. I like
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the way you put that. When we've
got in our lives, and both of
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you had in your life as did
I, people who are supposed to
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protect us, people who are...
Nancy you were sexually abused.
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You were in a very dysfunctional
family. What does that do to a
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child when the one who stands
in the place of the Protector,
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the one who doesn't protect
not only doesn't protect but
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is inflicting? First
of all before you say that
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she's come from a dysfunctional
family, but to everybody on the
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outside it was a perfect family.
Totally perfect. Exactly.
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And many dysfunctional families
that's the way it is. You know
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you heard that old saying about
maybe you live with an alcoholic
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parent and it's the white
elephant in the living room
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because the children are taught
to keep that all very secret in
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and the family keeps it all
secret and then they go and then
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they sit on the front row at
church and everyone thinks that
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they're oh so lovely but they
just don't know what dysfunction
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is going on in the home.
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Well the sad part in my
beginnings is that my father was
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a lay leader of the church,
an astute biblical scholar and
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everyone who knew him loved him
very much. My mother was warm,
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loving, affectionate, snuggly
kind of a woman. But when my dad
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came home from World War II
I was four, so for those first
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four years I had no father.
Those were character forming
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years when I needed the provider
the protector, the priest, the
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father and I didn't have him.
When he came home he came home
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as a master sergeant that he was
in the army and he brought all
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of his tactics with him so he
was an absolute controller and
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because he had been wounded as a
child and never really accepted
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by his mother even till the day
she died there was no acceptance
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for my father. Because of that
the only thing he knew to do was
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to reject me the way he had been
rejected. So here I am his only
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child, expected to perform
perfectly and be an example for
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everyone else in the church yet
out of his mouth came despicable
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things about me and to me.
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Does that make him bad or
evil? No. Makes him hurting.
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And the sad part is I now know
my father loved me the best way
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he could. That's
what I always say about
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my mother, yeah. But
the best way wasn't good
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enough. It wasn't what I needed
to become a whole and healthy
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adult. Let me
ask you, because when
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you're wounded as a child like
that and your self-worth is very
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low, then this sets you up
for failure. I mean, were you a
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perfectionist because I
was? I still fight that.
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Oh honey, Ron laughingly tells
people I ironed the sheets, I
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ironed the towels, I ironed his
underwear, I ironed his socks,
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Everything had to be perfect.
That all takes time and she
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would cook a meal and she would
have a presentation. Everything
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was color coordinated and the
whole ball of wax. So now listen
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with my extreme background being
rejected big time in childhood,
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she's spending all that time
away from me to make herself
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look good. So she
wasn't impressing me at all.
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And was that my point? No.
I was so desperate for male
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acceptance because I didn't
ever get it that I was trying to
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perform for that acceptance,
believe it or not, the way I
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felt God expected me to perform
so he would accept me and
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human beings are a success or
a failure based on the view they
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have of their
worth and their value.
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But now how does that set you
up? I don't want to spend the
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whole time talking with Nancy. I
also want to include you so jump
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in. But particularly because
we have some common things in
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background. How did that set you
up as far as your relationship
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with the Lord? It was
a performance. I was a
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goody two shoes little
Christian girl. I never...
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Boy do we have a lot in common.
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I never stepped out of line,
girl, I never ever. I went to
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public school from kindergarten
through 12th grade and never
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stepped out of line. Oh
mercy. I know I wouldn't
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let a boy even French kiss me
because I was told not to so I
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never... I didn't
do anything wrong.
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I know. I couldn't even date.
I couldn't enjoy any of the
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activities because they were all
on the wrong day of the week or
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they were too worldly. So
believe it or not, I felt like I
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was a weirdo and didn't know
well how to relate to my own
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peers because I had four adults
in my home. The only ones I
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learned to
relate to were adults.
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This is a very intimate question
but was the sexual abuse that
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happened in your life, did it go
on in your home or outside the
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of the home? No it
was outside of the home
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across the street, two old men.
But you know, a child who has a
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safe environment at home would
race home to report what was
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going on across the street.
And it happened for five years
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and I never told the truth.
My mother never knew until I was
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50 years of age
that I had been abused.
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Oh mercy. That's so painful.
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And she asked me, why didn't
you say. And I said, well mom
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you know at home... and she
interrupted me. She said you
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know what, I thought until you
just told me about your abuse
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that I had never been abused.
But you know, when I was 11...
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My truth set me mother free.
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Wow! So she had totally
forgotten, or blocked out, not
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really forgotten, but blocked
out the thought about her own
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sexual abuse. Correct.
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Now hold that thought for just
a second. I'm going to go to you
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because you also came
from a very destructive or
00:14:00.69\00:14:06.13
dysfunctional
background. And destructive.
00:14:06.17\00:14:08.84
And you then became what
you beheld. You became very
00:14:08.87\00:14:13.50
controlling and if anyone hasn't
heard your story, my favorite
00:14:13.54\00:14:18.06
part of your story is the pay
phone in the parsonage, how you
00:14:18.10\00:14:22.42
were trying to control your own
wife's outgoing calls. But now
00:14:22.45\00:14:27.60
all of these wounds that you had
and you were living out in self
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destructive behavior because you
had no self-worth, how did you
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look at God? You're
a pastor at this point.
00:14:36.31\00:14:41.15
Well it's interesting that when
I was 16 years old that my dad
00:14:41.19\00:14:49.47
died. The week before he died
he and I got close, and how we
00:14:49.51\00:14:55.44
got close is he let me drive
the car home one day. That was
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getting close. Nancy used to
laugh at that. I said, well we
00:15:00.07\00:15:03.37
were sitting 2-1/2 feet from
each other. That's close isn't
00:15:03.41\00:15:07.15
it? That's the closest I ever
got to my dad. Then he died on
00:15:07.19\00:15:11.30
me. Look at the terminology.
I came out of the movie theater
00:15:11.34\00:15:15.88
the day after he died and looked
in the newspaper and it says
00:15:15.92\00:15:20.41
Stanley C. Rockey died of a
heart attack. I said, if there
00:15:20.44\00:15:25.28
is a God listen to me once.
I want you to take my dad to
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heaven and I'll make sure I take
his place in hell. At 16 I came
00:15:30.12\00:15:35.13
out from that place to make sure
I go straight to hell. I wound
00:15:35.17\00:15:40.15
up going to prison. He
did go to hell. Tennessee
00:15:40.18\00:15:43.98
State Penitentiary, Hell!
You became a pastor after this?
00:15:44.01\00:15:47.89
After that. Now you ask me
how does that relate in the
00:15:47.93\00:15:51.73
pastorate work? I would pray for
you, I would pray for my wife,
00:15:51.77\00:15:55.96
I would pray for everybody else
to ask God for things for them
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not for myself. Because
your image of a father..
00:16:00.19\00:16:06.97
I never got anything from my
father. He always took from me.
00:16:07.00\00:16:12.04
And he took that father from
me so why ask him for anything?
00:16:12.07\00:16:17.39
Isn't it amazing. I'm just
sitting here thinking how many
00:16:17.43\00:16:22.68
people's lives with God, their
relationship with God, has been
00:16:22.72\00:16:29.44
shaped by an earthly parent. God
says, I thought you would call
00:16:29.48\00:16:36.16
me father and not turn
away from following me and he's
00:16:36.20\00:16:40.18
talking on a very personal
intimate level and what we have
00:16:40.22\00:16:44.13
a tendency to do is to project.
My own father was killed when I
00:16:44.16\00:16:50.01
was six. My stepfather was
an abusive alcoholic and we have
00:16:50.05\00:16:54.49
this tendency that our earthly
parents, whatever they're
00:16:54.52\00:16:58.56
demanding of us or whatever
they inflict upon us we kind of
00:16:58.60\00:17:02.61
associate that with our
relationship with the Lord.
00:17:02.64\00:17:05.17
One day, I don't remember when
it was, but remember again I was
00:17:05.20\00:17:11.53
raised in the movies and when
I was pastor, about 30 years ago
00:17:11.57\00:17:17.33
now I was at my end. My whole
pastorate was going down the
00:17:17.37\00:17:22.23
toilet and it was going bad.
There was a mess in the church
00:17:22.26\00:17:26.38
and I couldn't understand it.
No matter what I did my prayers
00:17:26.41\00:17:30.76
didn't work for the people.
I found myself going to a movie
00:17:30.79\00:17:34.49
and came out of there...
That was his escape. He learned
00:17:34.52\00:17:38.27
it early on. At age four they
would give him a quarter and
00:17:38.31\00:17:41.88
send him to the movies. And he
would get there by himself, get
00:17:41.92\00:17:45.46
home by himself and 25 cents
bought him two full features
00:17:45.49\00:17:49.43
and all the cartoons and the
news reels that came in between
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and a bag of popcorn.
That's a good four or five hours
00:17:53.40\00:17:55.38
I was gone. And I found myself
saying to myself one day, I read
00:17:55.41\00:18:03.16
the Bible and it said, YOU ARE
MINE. It clicked and he picked
00:18:03.20\00:18:08.62
me up, that's how I felt, he
literally picked me up and put
00:18:08.65\00:18:14.04
me on his lap and that's
where I find myself today.
00:18:14.08\00:18:17.28
Sitting on his lap and from that
day on as I was in the pastoral
00:18:17.32\00:18:22.45
work I felt him along
side of me every time.
00:18:22.49\00:18:25.98
Is that Isaiah 43 that you're
referring to? Yes. Isaiah 43
00:18:26.02\00:18:29.41
verse 1. And that's
where my worth comes
00:18:29.45\00:18:32.26
now. My worth comes, your dad
might not have understood you,
00:18:32.30\00:18:36.91
your mother might not
have understood you, nobody
00:18:36.94\00:18:40.37
may have understood you
growing up but your mine.
00:18:40.40\00:18:43.80
I have called you
by your name he says.
00:18:43.83\00:18:45.89
By the way that word there,
name, means pet name. He's got
00:18:45.92\00:18:50.88
a pet name for us. It
would be interesting to find
00:18:50.91\00:18:53.52
out what that is. I
was so dysfunctional though
00:18:53.56\00:18:56.10
and so controlling that
even when I was in prison the
00:18:56.14\00:18:59.74
brutality was off the charts
in Tennessee State Penitentiary
00:18:59.78\00:19:02.79
back in those days.
That was 40 some years ago.
00:19:02.82\00:19:06.82
What did you do?
Ohhh. You name it. I was in
00:19:06.86\00:19:10.43
prison there. What
he did not do is bodily
00:19:10.47\00:19:13.98
harm to anybody else. It was
all petty thievery. This is what
00:19:14.01\00:19:19.07
rejected children do by the way.
Rejected children notoriously
00:19:19.10\00:19:24.05
become criminals, however, the
majority of them steal things
00:19:24.09\00:19:29.00
to try to fill the giant
hole in their heart where the
00:19:29.04\00:19:32.45
relationship with a parent
should be. They fill it with
00:19:32.48\00:19:35.86
things instead of relationship.
00:19:35.90\00:19:37.36
And I filled it with things as
well but I filled it more with
00:19:37.40\00:19:41.46
controlling other people.
00:19:41.50\00:19:43.28
Well for me I can remember
I didn't feel like there was
00:19:43.31\00:19:48.67
anyone there that I could run
to. Especially I can remember
00:19:48.71\00:19:52.62
thinking oh I wish my father
were alive, I wish my father
00:19:52.66\00:19:56.45
were alive and there'd be
somebody that I could go to
00:19:56.49\00:20:00.21
well I was only six when he died
so I don't really know that much
00:20:00.25\00:20:03.91
about my own father. But it was
like, oh, if there just could be
00:20:03.94\00:20:07.57
somebody that I could go to,
someone whose lap that I could
00:20:07.60\00:20:10.46
crawl up in and they'd say, oh
I'll make it okay. But because
00:20:10.49\00:20:13.32
there was no one like
that around I became fiercely
00:20:13.35\00:20:17.21
independent. It was like, I'm
going to have to take care of
00:20:17.24\00:20:21.12
myself. I have a tendency
to be a caretaker for everyone.
00:20:21.16\00:20:25.18
But that was my biggest problem
coming to the Lord was that I
00:20:25.22\00:20:29.77
grew up having to be so fiercely
independent, that self-survival
00:20:29.80\00:20:34.32
I guess you could call it.
00:20:34.36\00:20:35.73
Well you know what, that is a
gift of the human brain, did you
00:20:35.76\00:20:40.43
know that. The brain is designed
to see to it that the body,
00:20:40.47\00:20:45.67
physical body and the mind will
survive at all costs. And here
00:20:45.71\00:20:50.35
we are now at that Y factor
we were talking about earlier.
00:20:50.38\00:20:56.06
So the reason that we get on
the wrong road is that we start
00:20:56.10\00:21:01.06
developing techniques designed
to see to it that we will
00:21:01.10\00:21:06.03
survive. It's
about control. I'm out of
00:21:06.06\00:21:08.04
control in childhood, later
on I take control to survive.
00:21:08.07\00:21:11.00
So that's one of the
techniques. I will control.
00:21:11.04\00:21:14.28
You probably never drank in your
life because you're like me.
00:21:14.31\00:21:16.64
I wouldn't want to drink
because I didn't want to lose
00:21:16.67\00:21:18.26
control. Well I
had control in the
00:21:18.30\00:21:21.78
drinking. I was drinking pure
grain alcohol before I quite
00:21:21.81\00:21:27.49
drinking and I
never lost control.
00:21:27.52\00:21:29.70
Is that true? I don't
know. I met him in the
00:21:29.74\00:21:34.65
courtroom the day he was
released after 4-1/2 years in
00:21:34.68\00:21:38.09
prison. That's how you all met?
00:21:38.12\00:21:39.64
Yeah. That's another story.
00:21:39.68\00:21:42.59
So let's talk about this
self survival type instinct.
00:21:42.62\00:21:46.78
So we develop techniques
to see that we survive and
00:21:46.81\00:21:50.90
usually those techniques are
not helpful to us. They are self
00:21:50.94\00:21:56.93
defeating techniques. Addictions
of all kinds, drugs, and alcohol
00:21:56.96\00:22:03.46
and tobacco and overeating and
religion and sex and on and on
00:22:03.49\00:22:09.69
it goes, all in an attempt to
fill the emptiness that we feel.
00:22:09.73\00:22:15.06
That's what addictions are about
I must survive. My mother and
00:22:15.10\00:22:19.93
father or my primary care givers
who should have protected me and
00:22:19.96\00:22:24.76
cared for me did not. So if
I'm going to live I have to take
00:22:24.79\00:22:29.86
care of me. And
sometimes the pain is so
00:22:29.90\00:22:32.28
great that I used these
substances to be able to numb
00:22:32.31\00:22:35.26
the pain. You
see I never used any
00:22:35.30\00:22:37.33
substance. My sister did
and God delivered her overnight.
00:22:37.36\00:22:41.93
But I want to bring this around
because we're talking about this
00:22:41.96\00:22:46.80
issue and we only have a few
minutes left and I don't want to
00:22:46.83\00:22:52.16
leave you hanging. We want to
give you the hope that God has.
00:22:52.19\00:22:57.48
When we have these wounds
that develop self-destructive
00:22:57.52\00:23:03.70
behaviors, these wounds that we
have these survival, I'm going
00:23:03.74\00:23:10.11
to survive. Those thoughts
themselves can keep us from
00:23:10.14\00:23:15.24
God because I know the secret.
I didn't want religion. Religion
00:23:15.27\00:23:20.68
didn't ever do me any good.
I mean I was a very religious
00:23:20.71\00:23:23.42
person but it was the
relationship with God that
00:23:23.46\00:23:27.15
finally... and it was that
thought, that fear, of having to
00:23:27.19\00:23:32.22
surrender control to someone
else was just like ah ha ah ha.
00:23:32.25\00:23:38.00
But when you learn to trust and
release the control of your life
00:23:38.03\00:23:43.61
to him he does have a plan for
your life. How does someone get
00:23:43.64\00:23:47.84
who's... we're talking out here
and have just a few minutes...
00:23:47.87\00:23:52.64
someone who says this is me.
What you're talking about is me.
00:23:52.67\00:23:57.79
I'm in that self-survival mode.
I'm in this control freak mode.
00:23:57.82\00:24:02.90
How do we get out
of that mode to God?
00:24:02.93\00:24:06.55
They've already taken the first
step. Because the first step is
00:24:06.59\00:24:12.23
telling yourself the truth. I
am a sinner. AA says, the first
00:24:12.27\00:24:17.35
step is tell yourself I am an
alcoholic. Telling yourself the
00:24:17.39\00:24:22.44
truth for the first time.
00:24:22.47\00:24:23.84
You asked me earlier if you were
so controlling and off the chart
00:24:23.87\00:24:28.10
in the area of control, what
made the difference? Just being
00:24:28.14\00:24:33.25
able to recognize all of a
sudden with right knowledge,
00:24:33.28\00:24:36.76
wait a minute, maybe I do
control Nancy. The pay phone in
00:24:36.79\00:24:40.24
the parsonage really
wasn't for economic reasons.
00:24:40.27\00:24:45.43
I think that's so funny. I asked
him, I said, you were a control
00:24:45.46\00:24:51.39
freak. He said, Yeah and I
didn't even know it. And I said
00:24:51.43\00:24:54.06
you had a pay
phone in the parsonage.
00:24:54.09\00:24:57.71
I had an excuse for everything.
00:24:57.75\00:25:01.20
So recognizing.
Then how do you get...
00:25:01.23\00:25:04.48
Okay the next step - renewal.
What does the word renew mean?
00:25:04.52\00:25:09.65
It means to make new again,
be transformed. How can I be
00:25:09.68\00:25:15.73
made new again when in my
history, in my past is all the
00:25:15.77\00:25:22.00
old junk. And the good book
makes it very clear. Nehemiah
00:25:22.04\00:25:26.77
the ninth chapter the first
verse. The children of Israel,
00:25:26.80\00:25:31.46
it's the day of atonement, what
are they doing? They're standing
00:25:31.49\00:25:34.58
in the temple on the day
of atonement and they are
00:25:34.61\00:25:38.78
confessing their sins and
the sins of their fathers. Why?
00:25:38.81\00:25:45.47
So they won't replicate what
their fathers did that caused
00:25:45.50\00:25:52.29
them to sin. So we tell people
you know sure it's going to be
00:25:52.32\00:25:58.02
painful but you go back to your
beginning. I have to go back and
00:25:58.05\00:26:03.71
look at what created me to
get on the wrong road and my
00:26:03.75\00:26:09.03
foundational experiences created
me to get on the wrong road; the
00:26:09.06\00:26:14.98
wounds I received, the
abuses, the lack of caring.
00:26:15.02\00:26:21.24
And what you're looking at
is not your behaviors but your
00:26:21.28\00:26:23.17
thinking
patterns because of this.
00:26:23.20\00:26:25.42
And when you look at the
beginnings, then you start
00:26:25.45\00:26:30.09
exchanging hope
and love for fear.
00:26:30.13\00:26:34.82
And here we are. Already we're
out of time. Thank you so much
00:26:34.86\00:26:39.01
for coming. You will come back?
We're not going to leave our
00:26:39.05\00:26:43.83
audiences hanging. Here's the
bottom line. The Bible tells us
00:26:43.86\00:26:48.25
in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that
you are a new creation in Christ
00:26:48.29\00:26:52.43
Jesus. The old is gone and the
new is come. So what Nancy and
00:26:52.47\00:26:56.87
Ron are telling us is that when
we recognize our own sin and
00:26:56.90\00:27:00.79
look back and see what caused
these behaviors. God says don't
00:27:00.83\00:27:04.15
dwell on the past. You're not
supposed to go back there and
00:27:04.18\00:27:08.38
live it but you've got to
recognize where the root is and
00:27:08.41\00:27:11.92
then you can take it to the
Lord and you can go through this
00:27:11.96\00:27:15.73
process of healing and renewing
your thoughts by letting his
00:27:15.77\00:27:20.06
word wash over you and transform
your thoughts, replacing your
00:27:20.09\00:27:23.96
thoughts taking them captive
and making them obedient to the
00:27:24.00\00:27:28.43
will of God as you just
actually transplant his thoughts
00:27:28.47\00:27:32.83
in and uproot your own negative
behavioral thoughts. You know,
00:27:32.86\00:27:36.39
I'm so glad that you joined
us today. I feel like we've just
00:27:36.42\00:27:40.17
opened this and touched on
the surface. But the Rockeys are
00:27:40.20\00:27:43.60
going to come back and join us
again so we hope that you will
00:27:43.64\00:27:46.88
tune in next time. Till then
may the grace of our Lord Jesus
00:27:46.92\00:27:50.13
Christ, the love of the Father,
and the fellowship of the
00:27:50.16\00:27:53.34
Holy Spirit be with you all.
00:27:53.38\00:27:56.65