Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
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And welcome again to
"Issues and Answers."
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Before we kick
into our topic today,
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I want to share a
Bible scripture with you
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that is applicable,
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but it's also
one of my favorites
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in the entire Bible.
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It's 1 Thessalonians
5:23, and here's what Paul wrote
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to the church at Thessalonica.
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He said, "May the God of
peace himself sanctify you
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through and through."
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Who's gonna do the
sanctification work in us?
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It's God's job.
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"And make your
spirit, soul and body
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be preserved sound
and found blameless
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at the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ."
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You know the Bible
tells us in Genesis 2:7
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that God breathe
His Spirit into us.
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His numa is what it
calls it in the Greek
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and that man became a
living soul or a psuche.
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And today we're
gonna be talking to someone
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who actually is an
expert in this area
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or one of many
experts in this area.
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And we're gonna be talking about
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how does a Christian
approach psychology today.
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And it's my great pleasure
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to introduce to you
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
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And Jennifer is the
Director of Michael Ministries.
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That's right.
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And you're also
a psychotherapist
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and Christian counselor.
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That's right.
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We are so glad that
you can make it back.
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Now this is not
your first time on 3ABN?
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No. No.
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You've done some--we've
worked with Don Mackintosh--
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Don Mackintosh on
"Health for a Lifetime."
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That's right.
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We've done some music and some
other things in the years past.
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You know, actually I was
quite surprised to find out.
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I knew you were an author.
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You've written six books?
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Several books,
yeah. I've lost count.
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And but I was
quite surprised to learn
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that you are also
a recording artist
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and that you've written
how many original songs?
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Probably over a
150 that are recorded,
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but I've written
far more than that,
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that are just like
an archive somewhere.
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And this kind of
came out of the fact
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that you were growing up.
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In your youth you were
into the new age philosophy.
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How did God get
your attention, Jennifer?
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Oh, well, that's a
whole story in and of itself.
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But, He just started
to just put needs in my--
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I started to
notice needs inside of me
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that weren't been fulfilled
in the life that I had.
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And He worked
through some Christians,
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witnessing to me and
sort of kindled the fire
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and then I ended up--
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I ended up really trying
Christianity as an option.
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I wasn't sure it was the truth,
but I tried it or taste and see
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that the Lord is good. Amen.
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And I tasted and I
found that it was the truth,
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so that's the
natural version. Okay.
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And then you came--
once you became a Christian,
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how did you become an Adventist?
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Oh, it was studying the Bible,
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because I found that
the Adventist message
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was based on scripture
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and that it
answered the big questions
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that I'd always had even
before I was a Christian.
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Were do we go when we die?
What is our purpose in life?
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Things like that were
answered from the Bible
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and the Adventist message
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did a really good job of
organizing that information.
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I just found that it had the
best system of biblical theology
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anywhere that I could find.
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So I embraced it.
The Lord led me to it.
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And I knew it was truth,
because I wanted the truth
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and He brought it to me. Amen.
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Now you have a master's
degree in psychotherapy.
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Right. You're a
Christian counselor.
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So tell us--you know we started
today I mentioned Genesis 2:7.
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How God breathe
the spirit into man,
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His spirit and man
became a living soul.
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I know that the word
soul in the Greek is psuche.
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Define for us
the word psychology?
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Well, I'm not afraid
of the word psychology.
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We're gonna be
grappling during this show
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with how a Christian
should approach psychology.
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And I just want
to say straight out
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that I'm not afraid
of the word psychology
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because I believe
there's a biblical psychology.
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The word "psych"
or that you know,
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we get psychology from
psych is from the Greek psuche.
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And psuche simply means
the immaterial part of man.
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And psuche is the only
word that is translated
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into soul in the New Testament.
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So when we see the word soul,
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we know that it's
talking about the psuche
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or the immaterial part of man.
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So psychology is simply
the study of the soul really.
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That part of us that is
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not really something
we can see concretely
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or perceived through our senses,
but is nonetheless very real.
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So like our
thoughts what makes us up
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or what makes our character.
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The components that
you can't say, okay,
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this is like this piece
of paper that you can cut it
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and see it and manipulate it,
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but it's
something that is invisible,
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but it's very much a part of us.
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But it's still very real.
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And like the scripture
that you've read indicates
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the various dimensions of
human nature are interconnected.
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Man is holistic by the
Biblical definition of man.
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So we have
spirit, soul and body.
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So the soul lives in
the context of the body.
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There is no
evidence in scripture
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that the soul lives outside
of the context of the body.
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But the way I
kind of see it is that
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we have the spiritual experience
when we come to Jesus--
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you know had a body all along,
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but the work of
character development
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is really kind
of soul development.
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So I've come to conceptualize
the soul as the character
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and that's the part of
us that needs development
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and psychology are purports
to have a theory and a method
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of developing the
soul really is what it is.
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So without the breath of life--
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if you remove the
breathe of life from man,
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he can't have body and soul--
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I mean there is
no body and soul.
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Without the breathe of
life he's just the body
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because the breathe
of life and the body,
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God developed the
soul. That's right.
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We became a
living being, a soul.
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That's right. Okay.
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I want to make sure
we stayed on track here.
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Now there is--I know
that my husband like you
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he has master's
degree in psychology.
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He was studying for
his doctoral degree.
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When I first met him
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I found that his
thinking was a little skewed.
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He had been a nominal Christian
when he was studying psychology
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and he got really skewed toward
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what I think of as a
flawed system in psychology
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and let's talk
about that for a moment.
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What do you think of as of the
current practice of psychology
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if you were to take the element
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of being a
Christian out of there?
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What's the flaw
within that system?
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Well, the basic premise of the
whole profession of psychology
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is that man can
solve his own problems.
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And the Bible-- so I
don't need to, you know,
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really like go after
the different theorists
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and point out
what's wrong in detail
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because that's a flawed premise.
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So when you start
with a flawed premise,
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you come to a flawed conclusion.
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The Bible teaches
that when man sinned,
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he created a god size problem
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that man cannot
solve his own problems
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that only God can
solve the problems of man.
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So because, you
know, secular psychology
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begins with that premise,
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we can't possibly come
to a correct conclusion.
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But that doesn't mean
that some of the theorists
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and that have
been the great masters
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of the field of psychology
having said some very insightful
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and even true things.
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And so I'm
equally guarded against
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over demonizing psychology,
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because I don't want
to throw the baby out
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with the bathwater.
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And there are some babies,
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there are some nuggets of
truth even in secular theories.
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So you know, Jennifer,
I bet you're gonna come to
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or say the same
thing that I've noticed.
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When I look at some age
type seminars that are out there
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or you hear some
things from psychology,
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I can sit and say,
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you know, that principle
is directly from the Bible,
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they've just
twisted it a little.
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Oh, that
principle from the Bible.
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So has that been
your experience that--
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That has totally
been my experience.
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And let me just say
this that I have pursued
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this counseling thing
as a later in life career.
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I was always
involved in music ministry
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and sort of like you teaching
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and preaching the
word and so forth.
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I got into the counseling
because I really felt like
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God was leading
me in that direction.
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And I went through a
secular master's program
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and I went in with the premise
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that the Bible
has the most accurate
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and comprehensive and affective
theory in method of psychology
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that can be found
anywhere under the sun.
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And after three years
of studying the theories
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of you know, Freud and Adler
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and Rogers and
Skinner etcetera, etcetera.
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There are over 300
different theorists
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that have
popularize their theories
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and after three years of
studying those things nonstop,
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I still believed
that the Bible contained
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the most accurate,
the most comprehensive
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and the most effective
theory in method of psychology
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that can be found
anywhere under the sun.
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In other words I
went in with that premise
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and I came out with the premise.
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It only really
enforced for being--
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because I had such grounding
in scripture when I went in,
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it only reinforced for
me what I already believed.
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But someone going in
without that foundation
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could be affected
and would be affected
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and would begin to see things
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through the lens
of those theorists
00:10:06.02\00:10:07.39
and we have to
remember that they are not,
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you know, people
that profess faith in God.
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You know, there's
so many these different
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behavioralism
and different things.
00:10:14.68\00:10:16.54
let's talk about some of
those because I do know that
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when I'm talking with
someone the advice that I give
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is if you're going
to go to a counselor
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and I believe in that,
seek a Christian counselor.
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Seek someone who has
good knowledge of the Bible.
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Of the word.
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And of the word, so
that you're not going
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to be getting off as you said.
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I had a friend
whose daughter-in-law
00:10:37.89\00:10:40.82
had developed a drug problem.
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And when she went
through a number of programs
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what they kept
teaching her was it's all about
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self, self, self
and you've got to--
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Self-esteem.
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Well, but it was
more than self-esteem,
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it was self
fulfillment, it was self--
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Self-actualizing.
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Self-actualizing is
the word I'm looking for.
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That's a part of the
Varangians school of thought
00:11:01.74\00:11:05.00
and that's considered the
third force in psychology.
00:11:05.03\00:11:08.43
There are four
forces that have developed
00:11:08.46\00:11:10.80
since psychology
began in the mid 1800s
00:11:10.83\00:11:13.37
and the third kind
of phase of psychology
00:11:13.40\00:11:15.45
is humanistic
psychology and Carl Rogers
00:11:15.48\00:11:18.28
was sort of the
figure head of that moment.
00:11:18.31\00:11:20.48
And what they teach us that
we have within us the ability to
00:11:20.51\00:11:23.97
what he calls self-actualizer
or fulfill our potential.
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And it's like a seed
within us that just needs to be
00:11:27.73\00:11:30.53
allowed to grow and we
have all the healing power
00:11:30.56\00:11:33.90
and the ability to
make ourselves right
00:11:33.93\00:11:35.72
within ourselves,
so that's humanism.
00:11:35.75\00:11:37.70
And all they taught in
this, I mean, she came out--
00:11:37.73\00:11:41.14
she went in other than having
develop this drug problem.
00:11:41.17\00:11:45.24
She went in
fairly balanced person
00:11:45.27\00:11:49.96
and she came out being one
that was so focused on self
00:11:49.99\00:11:54.70
and everything she was taught,
take care of yourself first,
00:11:54.73\00:11:57.85
do this first, do that first.
00:11:57.88\00:11:59.81
And she really then
started getting worse and worse
00:11:59.84\00:12:04.57
and worse and--
Sometimes it can make--
00:12:04.60\00:12:07.26
psychology can make you
worse instead of better.
00:12:07.29\00:12:08.96
And it was unbelievable.
00:12:08.99\00:12:10.62
But I have to
say that, you know,
00:12:10.65\00:12:12.91
if you go in as a Christian
and you see a secular therapist,
00:12:12.94\00:12:17.39
they are mandated
by the codes of ethics
00:12:17.42\00:12:19.39
to respect your religion
00:12:19.42\00:12:20.79
and not to try to
reform your thinking.
00:12:20.82\00:12:23.17
I'm not saying
that always happens
00:12:23.20\00:12:25.32
but at least the ethics code say
00:12:25.35\00:12:27.02
that they need to
respect your religious beliefs.
00:12:27.05\00:12:29.97
But it's true that psychology
00:12:30.00\00:12:31.43
can sometimes do
more harm than good.
00:12:31.46\00:12:33.37
And so if we have
Christian belief system,
00:12:33.40\00:12:36.44
we need to put
ourselves in a context
00:12:36.47\00:12:38.16
where that will be supportive.
00:12:38.19\00:12:39.56
So how would you take that
00:12:39.59\00:12:40.96
and compare it to what
the Bible would say though?
00:12:40.99\00:12:43.90
Take the idea of
self-actualizing.
00:12:43.93\00:12:46.55
Well, obviously the Bible
teaches that man is depraved
00:12:46.58\00:12:50.30
and that we do not have
the ability to save ourselves.
00:12:50.33\00:12:53.48
That there is no
innate goodness within us
00:12:53.51\00:12:55.68
that just needs
to be allowed to grow
00:12:55.71\00:12:57.94
and actualize that the
only goodness within us
00:12:57.97\00:13:01.47
is that which is
brought in from the outside
00:13:01.50\00:13:04.21
from the divine
source via the Holy Spirit.
00:13:04.24\00:13:06.51
So Christ within us.
00:13:06.54\00:13:07.91
Colossians 1:27 our only hope
of glory and the Holy Spirit
00:13:07.94\00:13:11.71
and the transforming
power of the word is how?
00:13:11.74\00:13:14.39
But there is--when we have that
God does expect us to cooperate
00:13:14.42\00:13:18.72
with Him as we surrender to Him.
00:13:18.75\00:13:20.82
There is a development process.
00:13:20.85\00:13:22.81
Character development is
the call of the Christian
00:13:22.84\00:13:25.73
and you can say that,
that is true psychology
00:13:25.76\00:13:28.19
is character development
00:13:28.22\00:13:29.59
as the person
begins to walk with Christ,
00:13:29.62\00:13:31.55
they experience change
00:13:31.58\00:13:33.06
and the whole
point of psychology,
00:13:33.09\00:13:35.06
of secular psychology
00:13:35.09\00:13:36.46
is to bring about
change in people's lives.
00:13:36.49\00:13:38.48
You see a therapist so
that you can undergo change.
00:13:38.51\00:13:41.83
Well, there's nothing--that,
that's certainly is something
00:13:41.86\00:13:45.20
that God brings
about in our lives
00:13:45.23\00:13:47.08
and so that's part of
Christian psychology as well.
00:13:47.11\00:13:49.81
However Biblical
psychology defines the change,
00:13:49.84\00:13:52.84
the standard, the goal toward
which we strive more accurately
00:13:52.87\00:13:57.46
than secular
psychology does I feel.
00:13:57.49\00:13:59.82
And there's so much disagreement
within secular psychology
00:13:59.85\00:14:02.40
as to how we need to change?
00:14:02.43\00:14:03.95
So the Bible is very plain,
we need to become like Jesus.
00:14:03.98\00:14:07.34
So what are some of the
other forces in psychology?
00:14:07.37\00:14:10.06
And let's compare
secular psychology
00:14:10.09\00:14:12.10
to what the Bible says.
00:14:12.13\00:14:13.70
One of the things that
really came out from me is that
00:14:13.73\00:14:15.91
these men did have insights.
00:14:15.94\00:14:18.50
But that they
gain these insights
00:14:18.53\00:14:20.37
and I even think some
of them from the scriptures
00:14:20.40\00:14:22.61
because not a few of them--
00:14:22.64\00:14:25.11
I think Roger did
study to be a minister.
00:14:25.14\00:14:27.95
And I know Freud
was-- he was a Jewish man.
00:14:27.98\00:14:30.42
He was well
acquainted with scriptures.
00:14:30.45\00:14:31.83
So what I see is that they,
00:14:31.86\00:14:34.04
they apparently
took a parts of truth
00:14:34.07\00:14:37.09
and they changed it slightly
and then put their name on it.
00:14:37.12\00:14:40.06
So there is
still some truth there
00:14:40.09\00:14:42.19
which is why the
psychology is so powerful.
00:14:42.22\00:14:46.14
Pure lies are not powerful.
00:14:46.17\00:14:48.70
Lies mingle with
truth are powerful.
00:14:48.73\00:14:51.55
So just to give a brief
overview of the four forces
00:14:51.58\00:14:54.75
within psychology
starting with Freud
00:14:54.78\00:14:57.12
and the whole
school of psychoanalysis.
00:14:57.15\00:14:59.81
Just to give you an
example of what was right about
00:14:59.84\00:15:02.04
what he said versus
what was wrong about it
00:15:02.07\00:15:04.17
because you see the
word affirms everything
00:15:04.20\00:15:06.76
that's right about psychology
00:15:06.79\00:15:08.16
and it corrects
everything that's wrong about it
00:15:08.19\00:15:10.37
and I love that about the word.
00:15:10.40\00:15:11.77
I can go there and
I can have confidence
00:15:11.80\00:15:13.32
that God will sort
out the issues for me.
00:15:13.35\00:15:15.52
You know, so what was
right about Freud, you know,
00:15:15.55\00:15:18.21
he brought forth the
idea of the unconscious mind.
00:15:18.24\00:15:21.69
In a climate within that society
00:15:21.72\00:15:24.25
in which that was not
generally acknowledged.
00:15:24.28\00:15:26.29
It was an environment of
rationalism and positivism
00:15:26.32\00:15:29.33
and if you know anything
about those systems of thought,
00:15:29.36\00:15:32.32
it's basically that
the man is the sum total
00:15:32.35\00:15:34.80
of his rational thoughts.
00:15:34.83\00:15:36.20
There was no acknowledgement
that we had unconscious motives
00:15:36.23\00:15:39.99
that drew our behaviors.
00:15:40.02\00:15:41.63
And in the midst of
that environment Freud said,
00:15:41.66\00:15:44.16
there is such a
thing as the unconscious.
00:15:44.19\00:15:45.90
Now that's true, isn't it? Amen.
00:15:45.93\00:15:47.36
I mean, the Bible
supports the notion
00:15:47.39\00:15:49.03
that man has an unconscious.
00:15:49.06\00:15:51.53
Jeremiah said the heart
is deceitful above all things
00:15:51.56\00:15:53.97
and desperately wicked.
00:15:54.00\00:15:55.37
Who can know it?
00:15:55.40\00:15:56.77
That's a
rhetorical question implying
00:15:56.80\00:15:58.17
that we can't
know our own hearts
00:15:58.20\00:15:59.74
apart from the aid
of the Holy Spirit.
00:15:59.77\00:16:02.85
And you know the Psalm, it says,
00:16:02.88\00:16:04.49
"Search me, O
God, and know my heart,
00:16:04.52\00:16:06.07
try me, and know my thoughts."
00:16:06.10\00:16:07.54
God has to do the
searching in the triumph
00:16:07.57\00:16:09.24
because we don't
even know ourselves.
00:16:09.27\00:16:11.02
So the idea of us
having an unconscious mind
00:16:11.05\00:16:14.87
that we are basically
unaware off is a biblical idea.
00:16:14.90\00:16:19.57
But Freud took it to an
extent that was not biblical.
00:16:19.60\00:16:22.82
He had a whole system
worked out with the id
00:16:22.85\00:16:25.18
which is sort of the
animal within and the super-ego
00:16:25.21\00:16:28.20
which is kind of like the
conscience but little different.
00:16:28.23\00:16:30.91
And then the ego
which sort of mediates
00:16:30.94\00:16:32.87
between the id and the super-ego
00:16:32.90\00:16:34.43
and he had this whole
kind of elaborate system
00:16:34.46\00:16:37.31
that was very
similar to biblical teaching,
00:16:37.34\00:16:39.47
but different
enough to not be biblical,
00:16:39.50\00:16:42.36
so I find that fascinating.
00:16:42.39\00:16:43.96
It is fascinating.
00:16:43.99\00:16:45.36
I think, what you said
is he did take a lot of good
00:16:45.39\00:16:48.35
from the Bible, but
then he twisted this--
00:16:48.38\00:16:50.85
twisted it to
his own destruction.
00:16:50.88\00:16:52.25
And then behaviouralism
came along after that
00:16:52.28\00:16:54.30
and probably the most
prominent behavioral theorist
00:16:54.33\00:16:57.49
would be B.F. Skinner.
00:16:57.52\00:16:59.21
And behaviouralism
was right in that id,
00:16:59.24\00:17:02.92
side of the fact that
human beings are very strongly
00:17:02.95\00:17:05.82
influenced by their environment.
00:17:05.85\00:17:07.78
Human beings are
imitative creatures.
00:17:07.81\00:17:09.74
We see our role models
and we begin to imitate
00:17:09.77\00:17:12.10
that behavior and you can really
see that among young people.
00:17:12.13\00:17:14.68
And when they, you know,
when they role model after
00:17:14.71\00:17:16.62
certain athletes or rock stars,
how it impacts their behavior.
00:17:16.65\00:17:20.37
So there was a lot that
was true about behaviouralism.
00:17:20.40\00:17:24.21
Again that's a scriptural
principle of 2 Corinthians 3:18
00:17:24.24\00:17:27.46
says, you know, "We
become who we behold."
00:17:27.49\00:17:30.20
That's right. That's right.
00:17:30.23\00:17:31.69
But they took
us so far as to say
00:17:31.72\00:17:33.76
that man did
not have a freewill.
00:17:33.79\00:17:35.78
We are merely organisms
that respond to our environment
00:17:35.81\00:17:38.75
and that goes beyond
what the Bible teaches
00:17:38.78\00:17:40.74
because the Bible
says that we have a choice,
00:17:40.77\00:17:43.03
"Choose ye this day
whom you will serve."
00:17:43.06\00:17:45.34
God wouldn't tell us to choose
if He didn't give us the choice.
00:17:45.37\00:17:48.72
So they took it too far.
00:17:48.75\00:17:50.12
And really another
thing that I see, Shelley,
00:17:50.15\00:17:51.92
is that these theorists
would bounce against each other,
00:17:51.95\00:17:54.87
they would pendulum swing.
00:17:54.90\00:17:56.27
One of them would say this
00:17:56.30\00:17:57.67
and then the other
would come along and say,
00:17:57.70\00:17:59.07
no this and they continue
to swing back and forth,
00:17:59.10\00:18:01.31
but they never get that balance
00:18:01.34\00:18:02.71
because they're not
founding their theories
00:18:02.74\00:18:04.35
on the word of God.
00:18:04.38\00:18:05.75
Isn't that
something? That is something.
00:18:05.78\00:18:07.44
The third force
would be humanism.
00:18:07.47\00:18:09.40
When we talked about
that a few minutes ago
00:18:09.43\00:18:11.07
and is--as wrong as humanism
is there are some things
00:18:11.10\00:18:15.10
that were right
about Roger's teaching.
00:18:15.13\00:18:16.83
For instance he said,
00:18:16.86\00:18:18.45
that if the therapist would
just bestow upon the client
00:18:18.48\00:18:23.87
unconditional
positive regard then the client
00:18:23.90\00:18:26.37
would start to
grow and self-actualize.
00:18:26.40\00:18:29.22
Well, there's an
element of truth to that,
00:18:29.25\00:18:30.72
that idea of
unconditional acceptance
00:18:30.75\00:18:33.48
in love is found
in the scriptures.
00:18:33.51\00:18:35.33
God loves us as we are.
00:18:35.36\00:18:37.19
He doesn't love our
sin, but He loves the sinner.
00:18:37.22\00:18:39.86
And then in the
context of that love
00:18:39.89\00:18:41.87
the sinner can
experience kind of a disarming
00:18:41.90\00:18:44.38
that can enable him to change.
00:18:44.41\00:18:46.01
And I think about Mark 12:31
00:18:46.04\00:18:47.88
where second most
important scripture
00:18:47.91\00:18:50.09
after the first being
are-- let me say this right,
00:18:50.12\00:18:54.49
the second most important
law of God, the first being
00:18:54.52\00:18:57.54
" 'Love the Lord your God
with all your heart, soul,
00:18:57.57\00:18:59.51
mind and
strength" in Mark 12:30.
00:18:59.54\00:19:01.68
The second was to "Love
your neighbor as yourself."
00:19:01.71\00:19:04.28
So there's has to be a
healthy regard for self.
00:19:04.31\00:19:09.50
Or you're not going
to have a healthy psuche.
00:19:09.53\00:19:11.65
That's true. That's true.
00:19:11.68\00:19:13.19
So there's a self worth
that is part of good, you know,
00:19:13.22\00:19:16.30
good development of
character and that is something
00:19:16.33\00:19:20.53
that the Bible has--Bible
teachings has provided for.
00:19:20.56\00:19:23.68
You know, God says that
we should account ourselves
00:19:23.71\00:19:25.85
valuable because of the
price that He has put on us.
00:19:25.88\00:19:28.56
You know, amen.
00:19:28.59\00:19:30.13
This is all right--Jennifer,
one thing that the Lord really
00:19:30.16\00:19:33.07
impressed upon me was
wherever I go to tell people
00:19:33.10\00:19:36.59
that you know
one of my favorite--
00:19:36.62\00:19:37.99
I guess my pet
peeve is when people say,
00:19:38.02\00:19:40.67
oh, I'm so
unworthy. I'm so unworthy.
00:19:40.70\00:19:43.44
And I tell them you're worth
nothing less than the price
00:19:43.47\00:19:47.30
that God paid for
you with the blood
00:19:47.33\00:19:49.49
of His own Son, Jesus Christ.
00:19:49.52\00:19:52.88
So to say we're
undeserving is true.
00:19:52.91\00:19:55.87
There's nothing that we
can do to deserve His love.
00:19:55.90\00:19:58.02
We can't earn it. That's right.
00:19:58.05\00:19:59.42
But to say that we're worthless
00:19:59.45\00:20:01.48
is kind of almost
a slap in the face.
00:20:01.51\00:20:03.17
And I mean, I know that there's
people assigned different values
00:20:03.20\00:20:06.56
to different words,
but that word unworthy.
00:20:06.59\00:20:09.28
God thinks that we
are worth quite a lot.
00:20:09.31\00:20:11.68
And when the
believer begins to grasp
00:20:11.71\00:20:14.30
that they are accepted
and loved and valued by God,
00:20:14.33\00:20:18.34
then they can
start to change it.
00:20:18.37\00:20:19.79
So Roger's I think borrowed that
concept of unconditional love
00:20:19.82\00:20:23.67
from the scriptures and
then changed it little bit
00:20:23.70\00:20:26.74
and put his name on it
and marked it as his theory.
00:20:26.77\00:20:29.81
Then the fourth
force in psychology
00:20:29.84\00:20:32.46
and some people argue that this
isn't really the fourth force,
00:20:32.49\00:20:35.97
but there's a lot of
movements within the field
00:20:36.00\00:20:38.76
to get this to be the
fourth force is multiculturalism
00:20:38.79\00:20:41.82
and that's all
about accepting people
00:20:41.85\00:20:44.14
in the context of diversity.
00:20:44.17\00:20:46.04
Accepting that my culture
is different than your culture
00:20:46.07\00:20:49.49
and I can't impose my
cultural values on you
00:20:49.52\00:20:52.57
and you can't
impose yours on me.
00:20:52.60\00:20:54.45
And that's good to a point
because God calls every nation,
00:20:54.48\00:20:58.14
kindred, tongue, and people.
00:20:58.17\00:20:59.54
God is the God of diversity.
00:20:59.57\00:21:01.33
But there's a fatal
flaw in that theory as well
00:21:01.36\00:21:05.14
and that is that it's based
on the concept of relativism.
00:21:05.17\00:21:09.89
That there really is no absolute
standard of right and wrong.
00:21:09.92\00:21:13.05
There is no
absolute standard of truth.
00:21:13.08\00:21:16.16
Your truth is for you
and it is truth to you.
00:21:16.19\00:21:19.37
Your own subjective world
determines what is true for you.
00:21:19.40\00:21:22.65
My subjective world determines
what is true and right for me
00:21:22.68\00:21:25.84
and nobody has the right
to impose an external value
00:21:25.87\00:21:29.07
upon someone
that isn't biblical.
00:21:29.10\00:21:31.66
God says that there is
a transcendent, eternal,
00:21:31.69\00:21:35.75
moral code and a
standard of truth
00:21:35.78\00:21:38.32
that He does
indeed impose upon us.
00:21:38.35\00:21:40.03
So there's good and bad.
00:21:40.06\00:21:41.43
And we know there is
such a thing as absolute truth
00:21:41.46\00:21:44.16
and His name is Jesus Christ.
00:21:44.19\00:21:45.78
He said, "I am the way,
the truth, and the life."
00:21:45.81\00:21:48.89
Now what about this what
they called talk therapy?
00:21:48.92\00:21:54.30
How do you feel about that and
does that lineup with the Bible?
00:21:54.33\00:21:57.31
Oh, I better like it
00:21:57.34\00:21:58.71
because I do it on a
regular basis these days.
00:21:58.74\00:22:01.05
But I really did kind
of struggle with that.
00:22:01.08\00:22:02.73
You know the whole notion of
paying someone to listen to you
00:22:02.76\00:22:06.40
and then sort out your problems,
00:22:06.43\00:22:08.02
kind of paying someone
to care about you in a way.
00:22:08.05\00:22:10.83
It sort of
reared up against that,
00:22:10.86\00:22:12.66
but then I
ended up in the field.
00:22:12.69\00:22:14.16
So I have had to
really examine it
00:22:14.19\00:22:17.03
and I have to say
that as I have compared
00:22:17.06\00:22:19.85
the system of counseling
that is in place today
00:22:19.88\00:22:23.17
where you actually
pay a fee to a therapist
00:22:23.20\00:22:25.29
and you spend an hour with
them talking about your issues.
00:22:25.32\00:22:29.58
As I compared that
model with the scriptures
00:22:29.61\00:22:31.96
I don't see that exactly
mandated in the scriptures,
00:22:31.99\00:22:34.95
but I don't think that
because it's not mandated
00:22:34.98\00:22:36.82
in the scriptures in
that format means it's wrong.
00:22:36.85\00:22:39.35
I think we need to
look at the essence of it
00:22:39.38\00:22:41.38
and basically what the field
of psychology has discovered
00:22:41.41\00:22:44.57
is that talk is
very therapeutic,
00:22:44.60\00:22:46.68
because talk therapy
does produce an outcome.
00:22:46.71\00:22:49.25
It's constantly researched
00:22:49.28\00:22:50.76
to try to figure out
of talk therapy works
00:22:50.79\00:22:53.21
and it has to be
because the insurance companies
00:22:53.24\00:22:55.22
won't cover it anymore if
it doesn't actually works.
00:22:55.25\00:22:57.79
So they have to
now prove that it works
00:22:57.82\00:22:59.66
and in fact it does work.
00:22:59.69\00:23:01.56
So for whatever
reason talk is very healing,
00:23:01.59\00:23:05.63
very therapeutic and we
can see this in the scriptures.
00:23:05.66\00:23:10.57
We're told in Proverbs that
"Counsel in the heart of man
00:23:10.60\00:23:13.83
is like deep water; but a man of
understanding will draw it out."
00:23:13.86\00:23:17.20
There are some people and you're
talking about your husband
00:23:17.23\00:23:19.35
a little while ago and I said,
he has the gift of counseling
00:23:19.38\00:23:21.50
because I could just
tell he's the kind of guy
00:23:21.53\00:23:23.67
that can intuit his
way through a relationship
00:23:23.70\00:23:26.17
and he can pullout the central
issues in a person's life
00:23:26.20\00:23:29.40
just almost in a magical way
00:23:29.43\00:23:31.32
and that is the
gift of counseling.
00:23:31.35\00:23:33.56
And I want to just
correct you on one thing about
00:23:33.59\00:23:35.43
using the word magic
because I do really believe
00:23:35.46\00:23:37.63
that the closer he has become--
00:23:37.66\00:23:39.03
I mean he's always had this gift
00:23:39.06\00:23:40.59
but the closer
he's become to the Lord
00:23:40.62\00:23:43.07
and the more he
relies on Holy Spirit,
00:23:43.10\00:23:45.11
it really is
that intuit deepness,
00:23:45.14\00:23:47.63
discernment gift
that God gives him
00:23:47.66\00:23:49.44
and I really believe it's the
Holy Spirit working through him,
00:23:49.47\00:23:53.77
but it is astonishing to watch
00:23:53.80\00:23:56.62
because when you ask
whether or not talk therapy
00:23:56.65\00:23:59.17
you can watch someone
he's talking with and they--
00:23:59.20\00:24:02.41
they're not trying--they
are not trying to fool him,
00:24:02.44\00:24:06.03
they're stating something
the way they believe it
00:24:06.06\00:24:08.27
and then as he listens,
when he can just get to the core
00:24:08.30\00:24:11.49
and you will see them go, what?
00:24:11.52\00:24:14.19
And all of
sudden they're thinking
00:24:14.22\00:24:15.62
and they're sitting there,
that's exactly what's going on.
00:24:15.65\00:24:18.51
That's exactly
what I'm thinking.
00:24:18.54\00:24:20.10
I just hadn't verbalized it.
00:24:20.13\00:24:22.47
So sometimes there's things
that we don't understand about--
00:24:22.50\00:24:26.20
About ourselves and
someone from the outside
00:24:26.23\00:24:28.43
can see the issues more clearly.
00:24:28.46\00:24:30.23
You know, I really
respect that gift that he has
00:24:30.26\00:24:32.81
and I've seen since
I've been in counseling.
00:24:32.84\00:24:35.25
I've just kind of feel
my way through the sessions.
00:24:35.28\00:24:37.46
I mean, I have
three years of training
00:24:37.49\00:24:38.88
and they try to
make it all organized
00:24:38.91\00:24:40.60
and layout a format for you.
00:24:40.63\00:24:42.39
What supposed to
happen in a counseling session
00:24:42.42\00:24:44.91
and really when it
comes right down to it,
00:24:44.94\00:24:46.31
it's all intuition and
just kind of feeling your way.
00:24:46.34\00:24:49.40
I mean, you have
certain skills that you develop,
00:24:49.43\00:24:51.73
but how you apply those skills
in the moment is all about rapid
00:24:51.76\00:24:54.80
what they call rapid cognition.
00:24:54.83\00:24:56.24
You have to know
what to do in the moment
00:24:56.27\00:24:58.11
and that's
something that God has given
00:24:58.14\00:24:59.51
certain people a gift for, so
I'm really enthused about that.
00:24:59.54\00:25:03.71
But let's look at
some other scriptures
00:25:03.74\00:25:05.32
that talk about counseling.
00:25:05.35\00:25:07.13
Another Proverbs says,
00:25:07.16\00:25:08.53
"Where there is no
counsel, the people will fall,
00:25:08.56\00:25:10.69
but in the multitude of
counselors there is safety."
00:25:10.72\00:25:13.08
So the whole notion of
counseling is very biblical.
00:25:13.11\00:25:16.72
Proverbs 24:6 says, "By wise
counsel you wage your own war
00:25:16.75\00:25:22.26
and in a multitude of
counselors there is safety."
00:25:22.29\00:25:24.30
And that one kind of struck me
'cause life can be real battle.
00:25:24.33\00:25:27.09
You know, what general would go
into a war without some counsel,
00:25:27.12\00:25:30.80
without some help
from people on the outside
00:25:30.83\00:25:34.10
that can give him
appropriate advice.
00:25:34.13\00:25:36.85
And then I love
this verse in Acts 20:31.
00:25:36.88\00:25:40.76
It says that Paul--
it's talking about Paul
00:25:40.79\00:25:43.69
and he says that-- he says,
00:25:43.72\00:25:45.51
"Remember that for three years
00:25:45.54\00:25:47.28
I did not cease to warn everyone
night and day with tears."
00:25:47.31\00:25:51.78
That is a counselor. He
is laboring with people.
00:25:51.81\00:25:56.01
He's engaging with them.
00:25:56.04\00:25:57.41
He's getting into their stuff
and He's doing it night and day
00:25:57.44\00:26:01.38
for three years long with tears.
00:26:01.41\00:26:03.69
Often times in a
counseling session I'll tear up
00:26:03.72\00:26:05.97
when I hear the things
that people share with me
00:26:06.00\00:26:08.32
and we'll get to a crucial point
00:26:08.35\00:26:10.36
and it gets very emotional
and some people have the ability
00:26:10.39\00:26:13.91
to really connect
with people on that level.
00:26:13.94\00:26:15.89
So what you're
saying though then if I'm--
00:26:15.92\00:26:18.43
What the Bible is
saying in talk therapy
00:26:18.46\00:26:21.17
is very similar to discipleship?
00:26:21.20\00:26:23.01
That's right. That's right.
00:26:23.04\00:26:24.41
So that's where we're
headed is that talk therapy is--
00:26:24.44\00:26:27.42
especially if you're
going to a Christian therapist
00:26:27.45\00:26:31.71
is very similar to discipleship.
00:26:31.74\00:26:33.43
It is
discipleship in many respects.
00:26:33.46\00:26:35.95
It isn't all about just
sympathizing with the person
00:26:35.98\00:26:38.86
and oh, you know, you
have a boo-boo and it hurts.
00:26:38.89\00:26:41.29
It's that.
00:26:41.32\00:26:42.69
It's compassion and tenderness
and the ability to connect
00:26:42.72\00:26:45.35
and empathize with people,
00:26:45.38\00:26:46.75
but it's also this ability to
confront people on their issues
00:26:46.78\00:26:50.34
where they need confrontation.
00:26:50.37\00:26:52.19
That word Paul says, "I did
not cease to warn everyone."
00:26:52.22\00:26:56.18
That word is Nouthesia,
which is to put into mind.
00:26:56.21\00:27:00.83
Putting into
someone's mind something
00:27:00.86\00:27:02.36
that's not already there,
00:27:02.39\00:27:03.76
you're actually kind of
restructuring the brain.
00:27:03.79\00:27:05.34
So the bottom line--
we're just nearly out of time
00:27:05.37\00:27:07.54
and I can't believe
how fast this time goes.
00:27:07.57\00:27:09.61
But the bottom line is that
00:27:09.64\00:27:12.18
there are some good
things about psychology.
00:27:12.21\00:27:16.13
It isn't totally
wrong with the Bible,
00:27:16.16\00:27:19.66
but we want to be careful
about the secular psychologist.
00:27:19.69\00:27:23.67
We want to--if you're
going to go to a psychologist
00:27:23.70\00:27:26.30
you got be going to a Christian
psychologist, I would say.
00:27:26.33\00:27:28.74
And even then draw
your sword and be good burin
00:27:28.77\00:27:31.02
and bring home what you learn.
00:27:31.05\00:27:34.03
Jennifer, thank you so
much-- It's been a pleasure.
00:27:34.06\00:27:36.07
I cannot believe it
has gone by so rapidly.
00:27:36.10\00:27:38.89
And I just want to encourage
each one of you as she said,
00:27:38.92\00:27:43.55
be a burin, get into the
word and check out any advice
00:27:43.58\00:27:46.83
that anyone gives you.
00:27:46.86\00:27:48.49
Now may the grace of
our Lord Jesus Christ,
00:27:48.52\00:27:50.66
the love of the Father
00:27:50.69\00:27:52.06
and the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit
00:27:52.09\00:27:53.46
be with you today and always.
00:27:53.49\00:27:55.67