Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Ethel Nelson
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000277
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00:32 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:34 Issues and Answers. We're so glad that you've joined 00:36 us today and we have with us a very fascinating and intriguing 00:42 woman. I really appreciate her. Let me just go ahead and 00:45 introduce you to our special guest. I'm referring to 00:49 Ethel Nelson. Ethel, thank you so much for coming back again. 00:52 Thank you. Now you are a pathologist who has spent 40 00:57 years studying the Chinese characters of the ancient 01:01 language. Sounds like I didn't do any 01:04 medicine doesn't it? I'll tell you what. When I'm 01:09 thinking of the work that you've done, I think of Acts 17:26 01:13 where the Bible says, let me just read this. It says: He 01:17 (God) made from one blood all nations of men to settle on the 01:21 face of the earth. We had Ethel with us before and we went into 01:26 a lot of technical details showing some of these Chinese 01:30 characters of the ancient writings and the time lines. 01:34 I thought it would be good just to have Ethel come back and just 01:37 talk to us because you really do have a treasure of knowledge. 01:42 Let's back up for our guests who did not see the program that you 01:47 were here for before and tell them how you became interested 01:53 in the ancient writings of the Chinese. Well it was purely by, 01:59 I think, providence. My husband and I, he's also a physician, 02:04 he's a surgeon, spent 20 years in Bangkok, Thailand in our 02:11 mission hospital there. One day when I had a little time on my 02:16 hands I went to one of our book cases and I was looking at the 02:22 different books and I noticed this one book with no title on 02:26 the spine. I thought, well what's that? I pulled it out and 02:31 it said Genesis and the Chinese, and I thought, ah, no connection 02:36 Where did I get this book? Well I think my husband was given it 02:40 when he went down to Singapore and he just stuck it in the book 02:45 case because he didn't have any interest in it. But I am a very 02:50 curious person. I like to look at things, so I opened the book 02:54 and I started looking at it and I thought, you know, maybe there 02:59 is something here. This book was written by C. H. Cong, a pastor, 03:04 from China. What he was doing was he was finding different 03:12 Bible truths in the Chinese writing. Well this fascinated me 03:20 and that's what started everything. 03:22 Now you have co-authored seven books, a lot on this topic, 03:27 right with others. Who was the gentleman? Was his name Wong 03:32 who you became involved with? Samuel Wong. For about the last 03:37 10 years we've worked together. Should I tell just a little bit 03:43 about his history? Please. Well he was a graduate student in 03:50 China and this was before the democracy movement and he was 03:56 taking a class in English literature and one of his 04:01 professors at the close of every class would put up a 04:06 Chinese character and explain it in a different way than 04:11 Samuel had ever heard it explained before and this 04:15 made Samuel very curious so he went up to the professor after 04:20 the class and he said where did you get this information? 04:24 The professor showed him one of my books and Samuel noticed my 04:30 name I guess at that time and sort of stuck it in his head. 04:36 But very soon after that the democracy movement came along 04:42 and Samuel was one of the leaders in that movement and as 04:48 a result he could no longer study anymore in China. That was 04:54 one of the penalties you might say of taking part in the 05:01 movement. So in time he left China and one day he phoned me 05:08 up because we had a mutual friend, a Chinese friend, 05:14 because Samuel was looking for someone to work with him on 05:19 writing a book. Now Samuel is quite a scholar. He loves books 05:24 and in reading the ancient writings he found things that 05:30 sounded so much like the Bible. He says, you know, I want to 05:36 write a book to compare the ancient Chinese writings with 05:41 the Bible. He says, since you're interested in the Chinese would 05:45 you work with me on that. So I said, Sure, I'd love to. That's 05:50 how we became acquainted. 05:51 So you all have written some books together. Your particular 05:55 interest is in the characters, the hieroglyphics, of the 06:00 ancient Chinese writing. How I first came to know Ethel is I 06:05 saw her on 3ABN and to me it was the most fascinating thing 06:09 because what you showed is in the hieroglyphics of the ancient 06:13 writings of the Chinese people you find the whole gospel. 06:17 Actually we talked about this last program. We find in their 06:22 writings the history that lines up the Chinese chronology with 06:27 the Hebrew chronology and we see that the ancient writings 06:31 of the Chinese people they believed in the God of heaven. 06:35 They believed in the great flood They had all of these things 06:39 even. We looked last time at their history of how they went 06:43 through the dispersion and at the time of the Tower of Babel 06:47 their languages were confused. But now what I want to talk to 06:51 you specifically about is you have a new book out called 06:54 The Quest for the Holy Mountain. This is one you wrote as a 06:58 single author. Where did you get this title and what does this 07:02 mean? Well as I've studied the Chinese 07:09 writing, the mountain symbol keeps coming up. Now it's not 07:15 just one symbol for mountain. Maybe I should go back and 07:21 explain something else and that is somewhat of the structure of 07:25 Chinese writing. You know in our writing we have our A, B, Cs 07:30 which are the foundational, fundamental units, 26 of them. 07:36 Well, the Chinese have the traditional writing which is 07:42 older than the simplified which is used in main land China, but 07:47 in the traditional they have 214 radicals which take the 07:51 place of our A, B, Cs. They are the foundational units. 07:56 It's a very pictorial language. They have that combination of 08:02 these things that paint a picture with every character. 08:05 Now I should mention that there have been modifications of the 08:09 writing through the years because the writing goes back 08:11 about 4000 years. In main land China they have simplified the 08:17 writing further but the traditional has been in 08:22 existence for about 2000 years with the strokes and this sort 08:26 of little square units. But before that the writing is 08:32 called a bronze ware because this was etched on the inner 08:38 lips of bronze ceremonial vessels and it's very different. 08:44 It's pictographic. But before that there is more ancient 08:50 writing called the oracle bone writing and this was inscribed 08:57 either on tortoise shells or on bones, on flat bones, and 09:03 it's called oracle which is divination because they 09:08 used it you might... today we might say well to tell a fortune 09:14 No. These people that used it were believers in God and my 09:19 understanding is that they would write, if they had a problem, 09:24 all the possible solutions to that problem we'll say on a 09:29 shell, a tortoise shell. Then the shell would be heated 09:34 intensely until it cracked and then wherever the crack pointed 09:38 that was the solution. 09:40 Fascinating! Can you think of anything in the Bible that might 09:45 compare with this? The Urim and the Thummim. 09:48 Right. You remember that the high priest had these onyx 09:53 stones on either shoulder and a question would be asked. 09:58 If it was yes the onyx stone on the right would shine. If it was 10:04 no the left shoulder would shine. So you see it's very 10:09 comparable to what the Chinese were using, their so called 10:14 oracle bones for. So now let me get back to this. 10:19 because this is why you believe they are sacred writings. 10:23 Does that make them one of the oldest languages recorded? 10:29 I think absolutely. In fact, I have found what I think is 10:36 perhaps the first reference to the oracle bone writing and the 10:41 date that I have been able to give it is 2222 B.C. So that's 10:46 only 25 years after the dispersion. You see, of course, 10:50 at the time of the dispersion they all had new languages and 10:54 no doubt the writing was invented about that time. 11:00 Now talking about invention; what is the basis of the writing 11:06 the Chinese writing. I think this is really interesting. 11:09 Now, my co-authors and I have been of course talking about the 11:20 radicals which are the A, B, C's that are the simplest forms of 11:26 the writing, the pictograms, and these were combined to form 11:33 larger characters with diverse meanings. But what are the basic 11:42 radicals? It's the garden of Eden story. We've gone through 11:49 all the radicals and we find that about 80% of them are 11:55 related to the garden of Eden story. Now some of the radicals 12:01 will combine, two very simple radicals will combine perhaps 12:07 of maybe even three to form another radical. But in so doing 12:12 they are telling the garden of Eden story. 12:16 And you've even found that in these as you trace this on down 12:22 it tells the story of Jesus. 12:25 Well actually we find the story of Jesus more in the writings 12:32 because anciently for 2000 years there was reference to a coming 12:39 holy man who was coming from the west and many of the ancient 12:45 sages wrote about a coming holy man. So we find the reference to 12:50 Jesus more not in the characters but in the writings. 12:55 In the writings, okay. Now we looked at the characters in the 13:01 last program and it depicts the flood. We talked about the 13:05 chronology of the Hebrew children and the chronology of 13:09 the Chinese people and how they went through the dispersion 13:13 about that same time between the flood and 101 years later when 13:17 the tower of Babel was built. But now I'm coming back to your 13:21 title for your book, Quest for the Holy Mountain. What is this 13:25 quest? Why did you title this book this? 13:28 The reason I brought up about the radicals is because there 13:34 are so many of these simplest basic units of the writing that 13:41 are the mountain. Why was the mountain so important? I found 13:46 that about I guess about 20 of the radicals are depicting the 13:51 mountain in many different ways. And of course being pictographic 13:56 they are little pictures so it gives you an idea of what the 14:02 shape of mountain might be. So this is something that I pursued 14:07 I guess for many years. I've thought about it; what did that 14:11 mountain look like. And of course early on I had no idea 14:16 that it was representing the garden of Eden. Not until a long 14:21 time later did it all begin to fit together and I see that 14:26 this holy mountain is really the garden of Eden itself. 14:31 Is that a new idea to you? 14:34 No, when you think about this and particularly when we think 14:37 about how at the end of time the garden of Eden is 14:42 essentially when God creates new heavens and new earth it's all 14:47 going to be restored. You know it's so fascinating to me, Ethel 14:53 that as you spent so much time in this study how you have found 14:59 that the Chinese who now worship multiple gods were in fact 15:05 monotheistic and they believed in the one God. They told the 15:10 story of the garden of Eden. What is the premise of your book 15:16 Well, actually I'm trying to put together what has gone through 15:23 my mind through the years and can I finally find out what this 15:28 holy mountain is. Well look at the scriptures how many times 15:32 in the scriptures there's reference to the holy mountain. 15:36 The holy mountain is really very important throughout the 15:40 scriptures. What important events took place on holy 15:45 mountains? Oh boy!. Well we can start with 15:48 Abraham and Isaac. Right that's a good place to 15:52 start. That's an incredible story 15:54 because it really was a depiction of what God, Jehovah 15:58 Jairah was going to do when he was going to give his own Son. 16:05 What mountain was that? Mount Moriah. Now Mount Moriah has 16:12 the history of David going there and buying this area to build an 16:24 altar. And eventually do you remember what mountain this 16:30 becomes? Mount Zion. Mount Zion okay. So you see the mountain 16:39 is so central to the Hebrew story and so the mountain also 16:48 is very central to the Chinese story. 16:50 Now let me ask you a question because I remember the first 16:55 time you were on 3ABN. Did not the ancient radicals, the 16:59 characters that are like their A, B, C's, did that not mention 17:03 something about a lamb? 17:05 Oh yes. You know when I just said that Christ wasn't so much 17:09 in the characters, I should have mentioned that he is pictured as 17:15 the lamb. And to me the most beautiful Chinese character is 17:21 the character for righteousness which is the lamb over me. 17:28 Isn't that incredible. I remember that. 17:31 You remember that? Yes. Actually and me or I is composed 17:36 of two other radicals. It's a weapon and a hand, and the hand 17:43 holds the weapon and that is I or me. So I am the one that 17:49 takes the life of the lamb. But the lamb covers me and gives 17:55 me righteousness. Isn't that beautiful? 17:57 That's incredible So that's not the only use of 18:02 the lamb. The lamb is used many times to depict other features 18:07 really of the coming holy man. And I should have mentioned that 18:12 previously. Ethel for 40 years you have 18:18 studied these characters. What has it done to your faith as you 18:23 have seen that the most ancient of the sacred writings perfectly 18:28 line up with what the Bible has to say? 18:31 Well it can't help but increase my faith in the Holy Scriptures. 18:39 It's so remarkable that here you have... The Chinese preceded 18:47 the Hebrews by about 700 years and then the Hebrews came along 18:56 and God led them for almost 2000 about 2000 years until they 19:03 disappointed the Lord and you might say their probation was 19:10 closed as a people. As a nation. But it's interesting that the 19:17 Chinese also were believers in the true God for about 2000 19:22 years. So here you have the Chinese and the Hebrews both 19:28 believing firmly in the heavenly ruler, in God, for about 2000 19:35 years. And you know, to me it's like 19:37 saying we know that the time of Moses, he wasn't there... 19:42 I mean man wasn't created until the sixth day, so the whole 19:48 story of creation had to come to Moses by revelation and 19:53 inspiration. God revealed it to him. He had him write the first 19:57 five books of the Bible telling all of this and sometimes people 20:02 will say, Well how can you trust that Moses wrote down really 20:07 the words of God. But what we see is it actually mirrored what 20:12 God had to tell the Chinese, the Chinese oracles, and as they 20:16 recorded. So they believe in one God. God shared with them and 20:21 inspired them. It's almost like you could say their scriptures 20:25 which line up with our scriptures, the same story, 20:29 and I think that's so fascinating. 20:31 Well, I think that it certainly substantiates Genesis and from 20:41 and entirely different source. You know there was no 20:43 communication what so ever between the Hebrews and the 20:46 Chinese. Besides that, as I have mentioned, the Chinese preceded 20:51 the Hebrews by about 700 years. But yet they have the same story 20:56 and to me that just adds credence to the whole Bible. 21:03 I heard the story of a missionary to Africa who came 21:10 upon a group of people who had never seen anyone outside of 21:15 their village and their little group of people who had in their 21:21 very rudimentary form of communication and writing the 21:27 same story of creation and they knew that there was one God and 21:32 his son. So to me we just see again and again that God did 21:37 reveal himself to man. 21:39 I think as you look over the whole world you'll find that 21:44 almost every group of people have some fragment at least of 21:49 the ancient story of the flood or creation, the garden of Eden, 21:55 different aspects of this story that Moses brought in a written 22:01 form for us. What a fascinating study, 22:04 because so many times too people say to me, You think as 22:11 a Christian you've got the only right religion, but look at the 22:15 great number of people in China. How do you know that the nation 22:18 of China isn't right, that there are multiple gods or there is 22:23 no god. Yet the root of their spiritual relationship began 22:28 looking to the God who created the heavens and the earth. 22:33 So just because what's happening in the United States where we 22:38 see people who are now embracing many different types of 22:42 religions and gods and New Age and all of this it doesn't mean 22:47 that the ones who are holding to the holy writings of old are 22:51 wrong. It just means that people began to go in other directions. 22:56 Another interesting thing with the Chinese, you hear of Taoism 23:04 well actually that comes from the word Dao and as I've looked 23:11 into it, especially the character, that actually is the 23:17 Trinity, the Godhead, the three persons. You find the three 23:22 expressed in many different ways. It's the Dao and this was 23:27 the great god of the Chinese, Dao. 23:41 I think about this and I'm wondering; you've had an 23:46 illustrious career as a pathologist married to a 23:50 surgeon, a missionary in Thailand for 20 years. 23:54 You've done a great work for the Lord right there. But God gave 23:59 you such an interest in research He piqued your curiosity with 24:04 this book. Would you say in your mind that the 40 years that you 24:08 have spent studying this... I don't know how much recognition 24:11 your work has gotten yet, but I believe that God's going to 24:15 get this into the hands of the right people. I wish that every 24:19 person in China could read this. I know there's becoming an 24:23 interest isn't there in China. They're looking back more to 24:27 their historical writings. God could use this. I've always said 24:32 China is that last frontier. If we could bring down the wall. 24:37 You know Matthew 24:14. I think of that verse many times 24:41 Matthew 24:14 Jesus said that the gospel of this kingdom will 24:45 go to the whole world, then the end will come. Well now we've 24:49 got the opportunity. Even as you and I speak, I don't know if 24:54 you know this, Ethel, but as you and I speak this will be going 24:58 into China through 3ABN, one of our 10 satellites and I'm 25:03 praying that this will pique the curiosity of someone and many 25:08 people there who will get this book, read it, and God could 25:14 start a whole revival in China just simply through this work. 25:20 So my question to you, I know you've spent untold hours in 25:25 research on this, would this by in your estimation the greatest 25:31 thing that you've ever worked on? 25:32 Oh, by all means. You know, I know that some people may call 25:40 into question the veracity of this. I'll make an admission. 25:47 I do not speak Chinese. I read some of the characters because 25:52 I've studied them. But you know some people say well you know 25:57 unless you can read and speak Chinese you're not a scholar in 26:02 this area. But I think that there's a different type of 26:08 study that one can do. It's more of an archeological study. 26:16 It's a visual study simply of putting things together and 26:23 certainly to me there's no question but what the early 26:30 Chinese were firm believers in God and they wanted to preserve 26:36 all of this information about the garden of Eden. I think it 26:42 was God inspired. They probably had no idea that this would be 26:47 lost, this idea would be lost for so long. But there it is and 26:53 if the Chinese can pick it up and study it and say you know 26:58 there is something to this after all. I've often thought well 27:03 why have not the Chinese them selves come up with this but I 27:09 think it's probably unfortunately because the gospel 27:14 has not gotten to the Chinese. They don't know the story. 27:18 Oh I know, but won't it be exciting when they hear the 27:21 gospel and then they go back and look at their ancient 27:24 writings and find out the ancient writings support the 27:27 gospel. We're out of time. Thank you, Ethel, so much for coming 27:31 and sharing. Well thank you for having me. 27:33 Well it's been our joy. And for those of you at home, I hope 27:37 this has piqued your curiosity and given you increased faith 27:40 in just knowing how God has shown himself to all men. 27:45 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father 27:48 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you and your 27:52 family today and throughout eternity. |
Revised 2014-12-17