Hello, I'm Shelley
Quinn and welcome again to
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Issues and Answers. I
think you're going to want to
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sit down and enjoy this
program because today we will be
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discussing something that's
very important and that is the
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benefits of forgiveness. How
do we forgive someone who has
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wronged us? Let me give you some
counsel from the Apostle Paul
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from Colossians 3:13. I'll
be reading from the Amplified
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version and he says: Be gentle
and forbearing with each other
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and if one has a difference
against another readily pardon
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each other even as the Lord
has freely forgiven you, so must
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you also forgive. You know,
this is part of God's plan and
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we don't always understand
why the Lord asks us to forgive
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someone else but everything God
does is for our eternal benefit
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and for our happiness here.
Today I have a very special
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guest with us and his name is
Dr. Dick Tibbits and he is the
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chief people officer for the
Florida Hospital. Dick, thank
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you so much for joining us.
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Well thanks for having
me. It's good to be here.
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Now let me ask you, what
is a chief people officer?
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Well my responsibility is
for our 15,000 employees at our
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hospital to make sure that
they are engaged in serving the
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patient and in
fulfilling our mission.
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That's wonderful. Now your Ph.D.
is in Christian counseling. Yes.
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Is this what led you to author a
beautiful book called Forgive to
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Live. Was your counseling
background what caused you to
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become interested in
the topic of forgiveness?
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Actually two things were. One
is personal. My own life and my
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need for forgiveness because
so meaningful to me that I
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determined that was something
that was always going to be
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central to my ministry. But in
counseling I dealt with so many
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people who had experienced so
much hurt and were experiencing
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pain and anger as a result
of other peoples' actions that I
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knew that therapy alone was not
going to be the complete answer.
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That ultimately people
needed to learn to forgive.
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If I were your patient, if I
were coming to you as a client,
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and you have a pastoral back
ground as well as the pastoral
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counseling or scriptural
counseling, what would you say
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to me if I came to you and said
I can't forgive 'em, why should
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I forgive this person
who has hurt me so deeply?
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Well you know the first
resistance to forgiveness is
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it's not fair. After all, I'm
not the one that did something
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wrong; they did. Why should I
let them off the hook. So people
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will frequently say, I know I
should forgive but I don't feel
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like it. And I don't feel like
it either because it happened
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so recently ago that the
emotions are too fresh in which
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case there may be some time that
needs to elapse before I can
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truly forgive. But more often it
is that people get overwhelmed
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with the feeling and don't see
in that that they really have
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the ability to choose to forgive
or to choose not to forgive.
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And forgiveness is a choice.
It's a deliberate decision that
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we make isn't it? It
is absolutely a choice.
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In fact, it is the best choice.
It is a healthy choice. So one
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of the things I do immediately
is to take a look at motivation.
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So we examine two pathways.
What happens if I forgive and
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how should I expect that to
impact my life, and then what
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happens when I don't forgive?
And when you don't forgive,
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often times you're left simply
being hurt and upset at someone
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who did something to you with no
way out. And that can last for
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years. There are people who
are stuck in that and here's the
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trap, Shelley. They don't
believe there's anything they
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can do to get out because the
other person needs to change in
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order for them to be free. When
you do that, you put yourself
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square in the world of a victim
where there's nothing you can
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do unless somebody else
does something. This is the
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motivation I really tell people:
Now stop and think. The person
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who you dislike the most is the
only person that you believe can
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make your life better. Now
does that make sense? And so the
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first step is helping people
to realize the consequences of
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their choice so that they can
be motivated to make a healthier
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choice. You now, I
remember once in my
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life, there's only one time
in my entire life, Dick, that I
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really felt hatred towards
someone. Someone who had deeply
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wronged me, even threatening to
kill me and I hated this person.
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And I remember that as I
was praying one night the Lord
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reminded me and led me to
Matthew 6:14 where Jesus spoke.
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And in Matthew 6:14-15 he says:
If you forgive others their
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trespasses, your heavenly father
will also forgive you, but if
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you do not forgive others their
trespasses, neither will your
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father forgive you yours.
Dick, I thought now that's not
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fair. Now Lord how can you,
you walked the face of the earth
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how can you expect me to forgive
someone when... I mean I don't
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know the end from the beginning
but it's just not fair. And I
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thought, you're commanding me to
do this. Now there's two things
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that are going on here. If God
commands us to do anything, that
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means he's going to empower
us and we can't do it on our own
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really. But wouldn't you agree
that the reason God wants us to
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forgive is not because... And
I did finally, the Lord led me
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through the process where
I forgave this man, it didn't
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matter at all to this man that
I forgave him but it freed me up
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to be connected with God again.
Why do you tell people why it is
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necessary that they forgive?
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Well there's two things.
First let me react to the Lord's
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statement because God didn't say
you have to forgive in order to
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be saved or he would be turning
the gospel upside down and
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saying we're saved by our
efforts. What God really is
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saying is that if you truly have
experienced forgiveness then the
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natural consequence of having
been forgiven is to be forgiving
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and so he was really saying if
forgiveness is difficult to you
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come back to me and receive my
forgiveness for I really believe
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that all forgiveness begins from
God. And until we receive his
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forgiveness it is humanly
impossible to forgive. Now the
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second point on that is we're
clear that the Bible teaches us
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that we should forgive. What
we're less clear about is how to
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forgive. You see, I talk
to a lot of people who try to
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forgive. They want to forgive
but their never sure if they've
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been successful. If they're
still thinking about the hurt
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and anger towards that person
does that mean they didn't
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forgive? So I've discovered
people often have more questions
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about how do I know if I've
forgiven? How do I know if it's
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successful? What do I need to
do, than would say I don't know
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if I want to forgive or not. So
part of what I seek to do is to
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give people instruction,
the how to of forgiveness.
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How do you forgive someone?
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There are three basic principles
to forgiveness. The first is
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I've got to deal with the past;
my thoughts and memories that
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keep coming back. What do I
do with those and how do I alter
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those? Because forgiveness
doesn't change the past and
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that's important to remember,
because you know the most common
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statement around forgiveness is
forgive and forget. Sure. So we
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assume that if we haven't
forgotten, we haven't forgiven.
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My definition of dealing with
the past is that forgiveness
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does not result in forgetting
the past. Forgiveness results
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in remembering the past in
a different way. The way you
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remember differently is in a
process I call reframing and I
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want to illustrate that. When
you have a picture and you put
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a frame around the picture,
you use that frame to draw the
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viewer's eyes to a particular
part of that picture you want to
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emphasize. So a small
frame brings you down to a very
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specific point of that picture
that you see and in fact the
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artist will often blow up that
part of the picture to make it
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larger and then frame it in so
that the viewer's eye is focused
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on that one thing. That's what
happens when we don't forgive.
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We focus on one thing about
somebody. In fact, what's ironic
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is that person that I hate
because of the terrible thing
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they did to me and that's I'm
having a hard time forgiving, is
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someone else's best friend.
So reframing is really getting
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a different picture. So I teach
people to enlarge your frame of
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reference. To see the person
more than just the wrong they
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did, to see the person they
way they really are, some good
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and some bad. In fact, all of us
are a mixture of good and bad.
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It reminds me of the scripture
that Jesus said when he was on
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the cross: Father forgive them.
He knew that forgiveness was
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essential but notice how he got
there, the next phrase: For they
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know not what they do. What that
basically is, is he took a frame
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that said I could look at these
people who are nailing nails
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into my hands and frame it right
there and say what miserable
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people that are doing this
terrible thing to me, or I can
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get a larger frame of reference
and recognize that these people
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don't even understand
what they're doing. They don't
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understand who I am, and if they
did they wouldn't do it. I mean
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that is reframing a picture in
a remarkable way so that Christ
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could forgive easily. And you
know what? He's never going to
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forget that, but he'll not
remember in the way that you and
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I might if we were
there at that time.
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It's kind of like I think it's
1 Corinthians 5:16 where Paul
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says we no longer look at any
man from a human perspective.
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We once looked at Jesus this
way but the inference of the
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scripture is that we are now
looking at someone from God's
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perspective. So I know what the
Lord had to take me through was
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to let me see this man from his
perspective as someone who was
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lost and suffering and this
helped me. He totally reframed
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that. Let me ask you before
we go on to these other steps
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though; when you're reframing
there's someone in our audience
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no doubt who has been possibly
sexually abused by their own
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parent, how do you explain to
them to reframe and to look at
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someone who's doing something
maybe so hideous, so heinous
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so grievous. How
do they reframe that?
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Well good point. First of all
I want to remind everyone there
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is no delete key for reality.
So you don't change what
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happened in the past. The facts
don't change. Reframing never
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changes the facts. You
don't deceive yourself to think
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something that wasn't true.
Forgiveness would never lead us
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into dishonesty. So reframing
is not changing the facts of the
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terrible thing that was done.
It's seeing it from a larger
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perspective. Two things
that I think help us to do that.
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One is empathy. Can I feel for
the other person's situation or
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do I need to keep them as a
total monster? If I can feel
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for them a couple things we know
about human personality. Abusers
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tend to have been abused
themselves when they were a
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child. So getting a perspective
that this person is not a
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monster but is a troubled
individual who needs help.
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Now what they did to me
was terrible and from a human
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perspective unforgivable. But
If I don't forgive, I will be
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punishing myself year after
year. The second thing I need to
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bring is humility. By that I
mean we all make mistakes, some
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worse than others, but there's
not one of us that is freed from
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the need to be forgiven. So
freely you have received, freely
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give. Now I want to acknowledge
that some situations like the
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one you illustrated on childhood
sexual abuse, is the most
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traumatic, difficult thing
there is to forgive and so I'm
00:13:04.68\00:13:09.20
reminded that forgiveness is not
an act, it's a process. I don't
00:13:09.24\00:13:14.25
say I forgive you and it's
gone and we don't think about it
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again. I have to forgive perhaps
multiple times. In fact, I even
00:13:17.79\00:13:23.20
like to interpret Jesus'
statement to his disciple when
00:13:23.24\00:13:26.79
Peter came up and said,
How many, seven times, is that
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enough Lord? And the Lord said
70 times seven. Now that can be
00:13:30.34\00:13:34.57
interpreted in two different
ways is if someone does
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something to you, you forgive
them; if they do it again, you
00:13:37.43\00:13:39.68
forgive them, if they do
it again your forgive them.
00:13:39.72\00:13:42.36
490 times. Or it could
be interpreted that when you
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forgive someone the feelings
and memory will come back again
00:13:45.01\00:13:48.44
and you need to forgive it again
and you need to forgive it again
00:13:48.47\00:13:51.61
and that process of forgiving
and reframing multiple times
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eventually moves you
to a different place.
00:13:55.56\00:13:59.57
Hmm that's good. Okay so now in
these steps then to forgiveness
00:13:59.61\00:14:03.48
and how to forgive; beyond
the reframing what is the second
00:14:03.51\00:14:07.34
step? The second
step is what do I do
00:14:07.38\00:14:09.41
right now. You know reframing
is a process of dealing with the
00:14:09.45\00:14:12.68
past by changing its story,
but what do I do right now?
00:14:12.72\00:14:16.93
Psychologists say that creatures
tend to be stimulus/response.
00:14:16.96\00:14:21.68
Something happens and I react.
I want to say that for the
00:14:21.72\00:14:26.30
religious person, for the person
who follows God, there is a
00:14:26.33\00:14:30.76
pause between stimulus and
response and that pause is where
00:14:30.80\00:14:35.22
I can step back and not let
someone else dictate my response
00:14:35.26\00:14:40.03
but I can choose my response.
You see one of the things that
00:14:40.07\00:14:44.69
God gave to us was the freedom
of choice. Now we can make bad
00:14:44.72\00:14:48.83
choices, but we can make good
choices. But choice is our God
00:14:48.87\00:14:52.78
given gift and between stimulus
and response there's a pause
00:14:52.81\00:14:56.68
where when something happens
to me that upsets me I can
00:14:56.72\00:15:00.48
consciously make a choice; do I
choose to forgive and move down
00:15:00.51\00:15:04.82
that pathway or do I choose
not to forgive and move down the
00:15:04.86\00:15:09.93
pathway of revenge, bitterness
and deep disappointment in life.
00:15:09.96\00:15:15.34
By making that choice I set my
decision, I set my reaction and
00:15:15.38\00:15:19.79
the critical thing is if I
don't make that choice the other
00:15:19.83\00:15:23.70
person is determining my
response by what they did, what
00:15:23.74\00:15:27.54
button they pushed, how they
got to me. If I make the choice,
00:15:27.57\00:15:31.86
then I am placing myself
and ultimately the Lord over my
00:15:31.89\00:15:34.96
life than giving
that to someone else.
00:15:35.29\00:15:37.64
So would a good pause maybe
be if someone has really done
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something to wound me that
I would take it to the Lord in
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prayer and that gives me that
time to pause and reflect on
00:15:45.53\00:15:49.27
this and pray about it.
00:15:49.31\00:15:50.31
Yes. And depending on the
severity that pause may be over
00:15:50.34\00:15:54.66
days and I may say Lord I just
can't deal with this right now.
00:15:54.69\00:15:58.62
You've got to help me. So I keep
bringing it back to the Lord in
00:15:58.66\00:16:02.55
prayer and it may take over
time but I am pausing. I am not
00:16:02.58\00:16:06.31
allowing myself to do the lowest
common denominator that you'll
00:16:06.34\00:16:09.83
find in the animal kingdom that
when something has happened the
00:16:09.87\00:16:14.49
whole wiring is they react. I
can rise above that. And so the
00:16:14.52\00:16:18.61
pause may be brief, it may
be a quiet moment in meditative
00:16:18.64\00:16:22.66
prayer, it may be prolonged when
I ask for extra support from God
00:16:22.70\00:16:26.71
to deal with this
troubling situation.
00:16:26.75\00:16:29.90
Okay. So we've got the steps to
forgiveness: reframing, a pause
00:16:29.93\00:16:33.88
before you react.
And choose forgiveness.
00:16:33.91\00:16:36.70
Choose forgiveness.
Because forgiveness is a choice.
00:16:36.74\00:16:38.25
Okay. So now
what is the next step?
00:16:38.28\00:16:41.23
The third step is forgiveness
needs to set me free from the
00:16:41.26\00:16:45.38
past to open up a new future
for me. And most people who have
00:16:45.42\00:16:50.23
been deeply hurt believe that
not only did this past event
00:16:50.27\00:16:55.05
hurt them then but it's
continuing to affect their
00:16:55.08\00:16:57.57
their future. I often hear this
especially in situations where
00:16:57.60\00:17:01.79
someone's been abandoned either
through marriage or a family
00:17:01.82\00:17:05.29
member; not only what they did
now but they've ruined the rest
00:17:05.32\00:17:10.13
of my life. Forgiveness renews
hope, because forgiveness says
00:17:10.17\00:17:15.16
that my future is not determined
by my past but my future is
00:17:15.20\00:17:20.27
determined by my goals. And
when my goals are the kingdom of
00:17:20.31\00:17:24.16
heaven and I'm in touch with
God about what do I need to do
00:17:24.20\00:17:27.98
each day to move on that
journey, then my past is almost
00:17:28.02\00:17:31.76
irrelevant. In fact, you
remember the statement, what
00:17:31.79\00:17:35.02
good thing can come out of
Nazareth? They were trying to
00:17:35.06\00:17:38.25
say that Jesus' past determined
his future. How can he be a
00:17:38.28\00:17:41.78
religious leader? No religious
leader has come out of Nazareth.
00:17:41.81\00:17:45.45
The past didn't matter which
is so different than what most
00:17:45.49\00:17:49.55
people think. We think that
we're shaped by our past, but
00:17:49.58\00:17:53.54
we now know that we're
really shaped by our goals and
00:17:53.58\00:17:57.47
forgiveness sets me free, allows
me to let go, allows me to
00:17:57.50\00:18:01.76
escape the repeated stories and
the entrapment of the past and
00:18:01.79\00:18:05.66
allows me through Christ to
establish goals for the future.
00:18:05.70\00:18:09.70
For God desires for us great
things, he just wants us to be
00:18:09.74\00:18:13.71
on track planning those.
00:18:13.74\00:18:15.38
You said that we're not really
shaped by our past but by our
00:18:15.41\00:18:20.08
goals. Would it be fair to say
that some people choose to be
00:18:20.11\00:18:24.74
shaped by their past?
Well it would be unfair to say
00:18:24.78\00:18:28.52
that the past has no effect on
us because it does. Our history
00:18:28.55\00:18:31.88
shapes us. I was speaking
more in terms of which is the
00:18:31.92\00:18:36.08
stronger force. Is the stronger
force our past experiences or
00:18:36.12\00:18:40.52
is the stronger force what we're
attracted to in our future goals
00:18:40.55\00:18:44.92
See I think that sometimes
we hear the expression now about
00:18:44.95\00:18:49.54
people who carry baggage and I
think that you can meet someone
00:18:49.58\00:18:54.21
and I had someone actually in
mind right now who is articulate
00:18:54.25\00:19:00.03
intelligent and has many lovely
qualities but is so busy living
00:19:00.07\00:19:05.92
in the past rehearsing the past
continuously, rehearsing the
00:19:05.96\00:19:11.74
past, playing the victim.
You have counseled and you think
00:19:11.78\00:19:16.05
that you've made a breakthrough
and this person will live free
00:19:16.09\00:19:21.20
for a number of months and then
right back into the past and
00:19:21.24\00:19:25.79
it's so frustrating because you
see that she doesn't want to let
00:19:25.82\00:19:30.34
this go. Well
let me speak to that
00:19:30.37\00:19:32.38
briefly. You know we have the
expression as you say, carrying
00:19:32.41\00:19:35.22
baggage. Another expression is
that someone is full of anger.
00:19:35.26\00:19:38.44
I have a physician pathologist
who is a friend of mine and so
00:19:38.48\00:19:42.22
I jokingly asked him, I said,
the last time you did an autopsy
00:19:42.26\00:19:45.85
where was the pouch of anger?
Where was the bag of baggage
00:19:45.88\00:19:49.14
that people carry with them.
He laughed and he said of course
00:19:49.17\00:19:53.34
there's no pouch of anger or
no baggage. What happens is it's
00:19:53.38\00:19:57.31
not that we carry anger with
us because it doesn't reside
00:19:57.34\00:20:01.20
anywhere. It is that you carry
the memories with you and every
00:20:01.24\00:20:05.72
time you repeat the story of
some past event you bring anew
00:20:05.75\00:20:09.31
that feeling. So I've actually
talked to people that have
00:20:09.35\00:20:12.54
shared with me a story and
it was so emotionally gripping
00:20:12.57\00:20:15.95
that I said, wait, we got to
do something about this and they
00:20:15.98\00:20:19.41
said well you know this happened
20 years ago. And it's almost
00:20:19.45\00:20:22.87
hard to believe. But it's the
rehearsing of the story and so I
00:20:22.90\00:20:26.91
tell people this: If you always
tell yourself what you've always
00:20:26.95\00:20:30.92
told yourself, you'll always
feel what you've always felt.
00:20:30.96\00:20:34.42
Forgiveness is a way of
retelling the story through
00:20:34.46\00:20:39.42
reframing so that it doesn't
go away but it becomes so
00:20:39.46\00:20:43.60
significantly different that
it's no longer the same story
00:20:43.64\00:20:47.51
and therefore it no longer
has the same baggage or the same
00:20:47.54\00:20:51.37
impact. So if my
father sexually abused
00:20:51.41\00:20:54.14
me as a child, would this be
a good example, that I could go
00:20:54.18\00:20:58.04
back and by reframing this so
say, you know my father did love
00:20:58.07\00:21:02.12
me in many ways. He was a sick
man because he was abused as a
00:21:02.16\00:21:07.11
child and he was perhaps a drug
addict or on alcohol. It was not
00:21:07.14\00:21:11.57
my fault. There was nothing that
I did to provoke this. My father
00:21:11.60\00:21:16.00
was really someone that I
should pity. He was a lost and
00:21:16.03\00:21:19.25
suffering man if I look at him
from God's view point. Perhaps
00:21:19.29\00:21:24.54
if he's alive today I could pray
for his salvation and that would
00:21:24.57\00:21:29.79
help me to forgive because I
found that you can't pray for
00:21:29.82\00:21:33.05
someone's salvation and hold
something against them. But what
00:21:33.08\00:21:36.75
happens if he's dead? What
do you do when you're trying to
00:21:36.78\00:21:40.41
forgive and someone's dead?
00:21:40.44\00:21:41.98
Well you know, first of all,
forgiveness has to happen in
00:21:42.02\00:21:45.53
your mind as a result of your
choice. You choose to forgive
00:21:45.57\00:21:49.72
and then you act forgiving. Now
if the other person's alive then
00:21:49.75\00:21:53.00
there's another step in which
you have a conversation with
00:21:53.03\00:21:56.23
that person and you begin to
talk about your perceptions and
00:21:56.27\00:21:59.31
their perceptions and you can
actually begin to bring healing
00:21:59.34\00:22:03.19
as long as both are willing to
talk. But you can have a break
00:22:03.23\00:22:06.47
down in several ways. One is
the other person is unwilling to
00:22:06.51\00:22:09.72
talk and therefore you can't
really talk to them or they
00:22:09.75\00:22:12.80
could be dead and there's
no way to talk to them then but
00:22:12.84\00:22:15.85
that doesn't stop the
forgiveness process. I still
00:22:15.88\00:22:18.91
begin that process in my mind
and if my mind I have forgiven
00:22:18.94\00:22:22.77
them, even though we can't
reconcile or talk it through or
00:22:22.81\00:22:26.35
work it out forgiveness is
as complete as it can be and
00:22:26.38\00:22:29.88
therefore it is forgiven.
00:22:29.92\00:22:31.52
So how do you know? Let's
say that someone's listening and
00:22:31.55\00:22:35.00
they say well I've tried these
steps. Maybe they've read your
00:22:35.03\00:22:38.78
wonderful book and they say I've
tried these steps before. How do
00:22:38.81\00:22:42.53
I know? I don't know if
I've really forgiven though.
00:22:42.56\00:22:45.84
How do you know once
you've reached that goal?
00:22:45.88\00:22:48.04
Sure. A couple of key things
that will help you. Number one:
00:22:48.08\00:22:51.58
Have you made the choice to
forgive? Only you can answer
00:22:51.62\00:22:55.05
that. No one else can answer
that for you. If you've made the
00:22:55.09\00:22:59.21
choice then the next thing you
can start to ask yourself is, is
00:22:59.24\00:23:03.52
the story that's upsetting me so
much, is it beginning to change?
00:23:03.55\00:23:07.79
Am I beginning to see things
differently? Am I bringing new
00:23:07.83\00:23:11.60
perspective to it. Because
remember whenever we remember
00:23:11.63\00:23:15.31
something, we selectively
remember. We cannot remember
00:23:15.35\00:23:18.96
every detail that happened. We
choose those things to remember
00:23:18.99\00:23:22.94
that reinforce our beliefs. So
if you're changing your belief
00:23:22.98\00:23:26.62
from I will not forgive to I
will forgive you will bring in
00:23:26.66\00:23:30.00
different parts of the story
that you missed before and as
00:23:30.03\00:23:34.22
your story grows and becomes
more holistic, more balanced,
00:23:34.25\00:23:38.04
from all perspectives then you
know that forgiveness is at work
00:23:38.08\00:23:41.83
because without forgiveness
this story would never change.
00:23:41.87\00:23:45.49
I think something for myself,
my personal experience. When I
00:23:45.52\00:23:48.62
could talk about things... I
grew up in a very dysfunctional
00:23:48.65\00:23:51.85
home and I didn't realize I
had unforgiveness in my heart.
00:23:51.89\00:23:56.22
But when I was able to really
speak about it without having
00:23:56.26\00:24:00.09
that same gut feeling like
someone had just punched me in
00:24:00.12\00:24:03.88
the gut, I realized forgiveness
had come. So for someone who's
00:24:03.92\00:24:08.92
watching us today, Dick, and I
know that there are many of you
00:24:08.95\00:24:13.26
out there who struggle with
something from your past and you
00:24:13.29\00:24:18.21
feel like I need to forgive this
what benefit is there? What can
00:24:18.24\00:24:22.56
we tell our viewers, why should
they forgive? What's the benefit
00:24:22.59\00:24:26.88
to them? Well in a
study I did at Florida
00:24:26.91\00:24:29.80
Hospital, one of the benefits
that was a surprise, is we
00:24:29.83\00:24:33.21
taught patients with high blood
pressure how to forgive and we
00:24:33.24\00:24:37.07
measured, during an 8-week
program of teaching forgiveness,
00:24:37.10\00:24:40.86
their blood pressure and we saw
clinically significant drops in
00:24:40.89\00:24:45.87
blood pressure from stage 1
hypertension to normal blood
00:24:45.90\00:24:48.99
pressure. You say, how can that
happen? Well because the body
00:24:49.02\00:24:52.62
reacts to the mind's thoughts
and emotions. We know from
00:24:52.66\00:24:55.88
studies done through the
American Heart Association that
00:24:55.91\00:24:59.09
anger is a primary risk
factor for heart disease.
00:24:59.13\00:25:02.81
It produces stress hormones.
00:25:02.84\00:25:04.36
Oh yes, and it elevates blood
pressure. So forgiveness reduces
00:25:04.40\00:25:09.84
anger and by reducing the anger
I'm reducing the driver of high
00:25:09.88\00:25:14.20
blood pressure, or one of the
drivers. We actually clinically
00:25:14.24\00:25:17.69
proved and then had it published
in a professional peer review
00:25:17.72\00:25:21.34
journal that by teaching people
how to forgive we could lower
00:25:21.38\00:25:24.68
their blood pressure. So we know
it's good for the body. We know
00:25:24.71\00:25:28.68
it's good for the mind because
anger is toxic and chronic anger
00:25:28.72\00:25:33.80
is death-leading, it can kill
you. So by reducing the anger
00:25:33.83\00:25:37.90
you give a person a chance to
have a more rewarding life and
00:25:37.94\00:25:41.98
of course spiritually we started
this program right in the
00:25:42.02\00:25:45.09
beginning... Excuse
me for interrupting but
00:25:45.12\00:25:48.26
this is so interesting because
I'm listening to you talk and I
00:25:48.29\00:25:51.37
though you're using a word that
I don't always associate with
00:25:51.41\00:25:55.27
unforgiveness. That is anger.
Sometimes would you say that if
00:25:55.30\00:25:58.68
someone's feeling wounded that
that's still a form of anger?
00:25:58.72\00:26:02.07
That's interesting.
Psychology would tell you that
00:26:02.10\00:26:05.36
anger and hurt are the same
thing, just two sides of the
00:26:05.40\00:26:08.43
same coin and you're not going
to feel angry unless you've been
00:26:08.47\00:26:11.72
hurt and you're not going to
get through the hurt unless you
00:26:11.75\00:26:15.58
express the anger. So what we
want to do is to teach people to
00:26:15.62\00:26:19.08
express anger in a healthy way,
not in a destructive way that
00:26:19.12\00:26:22.55
reinforces the anger by shouting
and hitting pillows but by
00:26:22.58\00:26:25.33
expressing the anger so
that it can be given up through
00:26:25.37\00:26:28.08
forgiveness. Okay.
So the benefit then is
00:26:28.12\00:26:31.17
it's a physical benefit, it's
a mental benefit, what about a
00:26:31.20\00:26:37.48
spiritual benefit. Well
spiritually it is the only
00:26:37.52\00:26:40.84
way to salvation. There is
no way we can earn it, there is
00:26:40.87\00:26:44.30
nothing we can do to achieve it
but to simply accept forgiveness
00:26:44.34\00:26:47.79
In the text you read, when I
accept forgiveness and feel it's
00:26:47.83\00:26:51.25
power to release my life
why would I go back to my
00:26:51.28\00:26:55.04
relationship with someone
else and become trapped again in
00:26:55.08\00:26:58.20
misery because I won't forgive
them for forgiveness not only
00:26:58.23\00:27:01.31
is about the other person
but it's about setting me free.
00:27:01.34\00:27:05.00
So I need to forgive to set
me free as much as I need to be
00:27:05.03\00:27:08.66
forgiven to be set free.
00:27:08.69\00:27:09.95
And you know we can forgive
someone and not maybe return to
00:27:09.99\00:27:14.03
and intimate personal
relationship with them because
00:27:14.07\00:27:17.04
we certainly don't want to
go off the air and leave the
00:27:17.08\00:27:20.85
impression with you that you
should be, what would you say,
00:27:20.89\00:27:24.63
a rug for someone
to wipe their feet on.
00:27:24.66\00:27:28.06
You certainly don't put yourself
back into a situation where
00:27:28.10\00:27:30.60
someone can harm you.
00:27:30.64\00:27:31.61
Okay. Dick this has been
wonderful. I'm so sorry that we
00:27:31.62\00:27:35.57
are out of time already. We're
going to have to have you come
00:27:35.60\00:27:38.61
back some time and do some more
programs with us because you
00:27:38.65\00:27:41.76
have given this a lot of study
and a lot of thought and written
00:27:41.79\00:27:44.86
this wonderful book, Forgive
to Live by Dr. Dick Tibbits.
00:27:44.90\00:27:48.11
Thank you so much for joining
us and may the grace of our
00:27:48.15\00:27:51.29
Lord Jesus Christ and the love
of the Father be with you today.
00:27:51.33\00:27:54.08