Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Desmond Mattocks
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000271
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00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to Issues and 00:33 Answers, a program where we talk about issues that are important 00:36 to your life and try to provide Biblical answers. As I always 00:40 do I'd like to start with a scripture today because this is 00:43 going to set up our topic and it comes from Galatians chapter 6 00:47 and verse 1. Paul's writing to the Galatians. Listen to this 00:51 wise advice that he gives. He says: Brethren if any person is 00:55 overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are 00:59 spiritual, you who are controlled by the Holy Spirit, 01:02 led by the Holy Spirit, should set him right and restore and 01:07 reinstate him. But listen, he says, without any sense of 01:12 superiority, he's saying it can happen to all of us and with all 01:16 gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself lest you should 01:21 be tempted also. The purpose of the church, the purpose of 01:25 Christian fellowship, is that we might speak the truth boldly in 01:29 love to one another, that we might help restore because God 01:33 is a God of restoration and he wants us to give out that 01:38 message of redemption and restoration. Our topic today is 01:42 called Benign Neglect. Now isn't that an interesting title? We're 01:46 going to learn from our special guest what this is all about. 01:50 Help me please to welcome back Dr. Desmond Mattocks. Desmond 01:55 it is so good to have you back. 01:57 Thanks for having me. 01:59 Now you are a Ph. D. in Christian counseling and you 02:04 have written a book called Redemption Therapy: Counseling 02:07 by Inspiration. Tell us what redemption therapy is all about. 02:13 Redemption Therapy in essence is really making wise use of God's 02:18 word in therapy. It is intended to help or to assist the 02:23 individual to follow God's plan for marriage. 02:25 OK, so you do focus a lot on marital counseling, that is your 02:30 primary focus. Yes. Now we've had a couple of programs with 02:33 you before that have been very interesting. But let me ask you 02:37 this question. Where do you come up with this title Benign 02:41 Neglect and what do you mean? 02:43 I think the infinite willingness of the church to reach out to 02:49 to sinners and people who have violated God's command 02:53 is the goal and truth of the gospel that Christ taught. 02:57 And the scripture is hardly able to give us a clearer example 03:03 that Christ's relationship with the woman at the well. Here was 03:08 a woman who had been messing around for quite some time and 03:13 the man with whom she lived at that time was not her husband. 03:17 But what approach did Christ take? Clearly she was caught 03:22 red-handed. Clearly she was in violation of the law and needed 03:27 some rebuke but Christ spoke to her, engaged her into to a 03:33 conversation at the end of which rather that feeling ashamed of 03:37 herself, she went out to call others and say come see a man. 03:42 I think if we counselors and the church could take note of how 03:46 Christ dealt with this woman, I think divorced people and the 03:51 whole community at large would be better for our experience. 03:56 So am I to understand that benign neglect means that the church 04:01 has been sleeping and maybe not intentionally neglecting these 04:05 people but we've not been counseling from scripture people 04:10 who have been injured in marital relationships or going through a 04:15 tough time, but also those who have suffered from divorce. 04:18 Is that what you're saying? 04:20 The church is very long on condemning people when they have 04:26 done wrong but very short in restoring them. And I think I 04:31 see people come to church each week and they're hurting, 04:36 hurting badly and sermons don't always cut it for them. They 04:42 come to church empty and they leave empty because of what is 04:46 going on in their own personal life, what's going on socially 04:50 and otherwise and the church's arms see somewhat short. 04:56 It doesn't embrace them and I'm not asking the church to not do 05:00 its duty in letting people know that they've done wrong but once 05:04 you have done that you have a duty to restore people to their 05:08 original position and I think this is where the church has 05:13 neglected inadvertently, unwittingly, it has neglected 05:18 the caring and the loving of people who have fallen foul 05:23 of God's law. Well, in all fairness there are 05:25 some churches, I know we go to a very loving church that's very 05:29 accepting and reaching out. There are some churches that 05:32 have it right. But what you're saying is by and large no matter 05:36 what denomination there are people who are walking into 05:40 church and they are not getting the love, acceptance, guidance 05:46 they're not having their spiritual needs met because I 05:52 tell people the church is a hospital for sinners. 05:55 Someone recently said to me well then if you come to a hospital 06:00 once you're well you're supposed to go out. I said no in this 06:03 instance, once you're well you become one of the doctors and 06:07 the nurses to restore and help others back to good spiritual 06:11 health. Let's look at the analogy of the 06:13 hospital. You go into a hospital and you see cancer patients, you 06:19 see heart patients, you see diabetes, you see the objective 06:24 ...you never hear the heart patient talking about the cancer 06:28 patient. Everybody is there to get well and the great physician 06:33 is Jesus Christ. So when a person has violated the law, yes 06:37 they have done wrong and they need to know that they've done 06:41 wrong just like the woman at the well, but beyond that you have 06:46 to restore them and I think this is where the church fails. 06:50 I recall some years ago I was asked to do a Sabbath School 06:54 class on family life and I began to come up with my own topics, 07:02 you know, and I realized how hurting people were. 07:07 Initially people were unable to share their views because it was 07:11 unheard of, it was such a taboo thing, but after weeks of this 07:16 three or four weeks, I realized how many people in the church 07:21 were hurting and they came to church, not so much to hear a 07:26 sermon. They came to be loved and to be appreciated and this 07:31 wasn't happening and after the first few weeks it almost was as 07:36 if the class was full of people sharing and venting their 07:40 frustration and out of that class the idea for a book like 07:44 this was Redemption Therapy. 07:46 Wonderful, but now you've touched on something that I'd 07:48 like to elaborate on and see if you agree. You said that it took 07:53 a few weeks before people were opening up. Don't you think that 07:57 in part it's not just the church's fault that this kind 08:01 of redemption therapy hasn't been going on but many times 08:05 people come to church and they use verbal camouflage and they 08:08 put on their finest smile and people say how are you doing 08:12 and they'll say Happy Sabbath, I'm doing great and they hold 08:16 things because they're so afraid that they will be judged that 08:20 they hold things within themselves. 08:22 That is absolutely true. This is where I think the church must 08:27 take the initiative. Christ did not wait for the woman to come 08:32 to him. He initiated conversation with her, 08:34 he reached out and he touched her. He spoke to her heart and 08:40 her heart responded. I think that the church must exercise 08:45 love if it does have the love of Jesus Christ, because no man 08:50 is in a fit condition to condemn another one or even to counsel 08:54 him if they don't have the Spirit of God. It doesn't matter 08:58 how many Sabbaths you keep, it doesn't matter how many times 09:01 you come to church, you're not keeping the Sabbath unless you 09:05 have the Spirit of the one who made the Sabbath and I think 09:08 that's where the church is falling down. So we have to 09:11 reexamine why this is happening or not happening. 09:16 OK, so how I say it, and I think you'll like this is that the 09:20 Holy Spirit is not only the spirit of holiness because God 09:24 is holy but God is also love, 1 John 4:8 and 16 tell us this. 09:28 So the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of love and anything that we do 09:33 that is not motivated by love is not of God, so how can we then, 09:38 the church, the body of Christ, initiate things and what can we 09:43 initiate to reach people who may be closed off to us, who may be 09:47 giving us a false front. What can we do to rectify this 09:53 situation? We have to go to them and that 09:58 means go to them in the congregation, go to them in the 10:02 home, speak to them trying to find out what is happening with 10:07 them in their marriages and let them feel a sense of belonging, 10:11 a sense of worth because that's very important to all of us. All 10:15 of us like to be appreciated and loved. When you're going to a 10:20 church you're returning you're offerings and your tithes and 10:23 you're not getting anything back because the relationship is 10:27 supposed to be reciprocated relationship. That's how God 10:32 made the total system that we give and receive. You know, you 10:38 take a flower, a plant; the plant gives off oxygen and we 10:44 gladly take that in. We add some carbon to that and return CO2. 10:48 The plant takes that back, makes fruits and we eat and the cycle 10:54 continues and that's how God's universe operates. What we hold 10:59 onto we hoard our feelings, we hoard our love and we use it to 11:03 beat other people over the head with it. We must use it to 11:07 improve ourselves so that we can respond to them positively. 11:11 That's where I think the church is falling down. The church was 11:15 called to be an example. So if you go to church and you're 11:19 feeling that. You get the impression, well why am I going 11:23 there and so we find people playing hop scotch to different 11:27 churches just to find something that is alluding them over the 11:31 years. And so it almost has evidence like a fast food 11:38 restaurant, McDonalds. Wherever you go you get the same menu, 11:42 the same feeling is being dished out to you and that's what you 11:46 eat each day as a person who has been divorced. I think that is 11:49 wrong scripturally and otherwise. So I think the church 11:53 needs to look at itself and understand its own condition. 11:56 I think the angel in Revelation said it best, you're wretched, 12:00 you're poor, you're blind church You can't see your own self. You 12:04 think you're rich, you think you're righteous but you're 12:06 not any better than these people They have done wrong, yes, but 12:10 you have a duty to restore them. 12:12 Amen, amen, the scripture is clear on that. Now would you say 12:17 that those of us who are spiritual that our goal should 12:22 be to go to church not to gain a blessing but rather to be a 12:28 blessing. Now I'm very fortunate Here in our Thompsonville church 12:34 we have a church that is filled with loving people and I 12:38 guarantee that if someone comes as a visitor they're going to be 12:40 acknowledged all the way around and we have a fellowship 12:45 luncheon every weekend so that people who attend church can 12:50 come and be ministered to. Of course with over 200 people we 12:55 do a pretty good job of keeping up with everyone. So it begins 13:00 with the individual saint that when we come to church we need 13:05 to be looking out for people who are coming in, looking out, 13:09 making them feel good, inviting them to our homes. But then are 13:13 there some types of programs that maybe the church can offer 13:17 to help meet the needs of these people? 13:20 Well you know you said earlier that to get your blessing you go 13:25 and give blessing rather than receiving but that's how you get 13:29 your blessing, by giving. Because when everybody's 13:31 giving everybody's receiving. And so the best way to impress 13:36 is not to impress. It's just to seek after what you can do to 13:42 help someone else. So I think that... you spoke about the 13:47 Thompsonville church and I was there last night so I did see a 13:50 little bit of what you're talking about. I was received 13:54 very well and I appreciated that I was able to telephone and tell 13:58 my wife about that. And that's what church is all about, really 14:02 that you make people feel a sense of belonging. You don't 14:07 condemn them or take them apart and you're not able to put them 14:10 back together. That's the good thing about Jesus. When he takes 14:15 you apart he puts you back together. And I think the church 14:21 is failing in this, ministers and elders and leaders are 14:26 not reaching out in the way that God intended for them to reach 14:30 out. Yes people have done wrong They have caviled at the seventh 14:33 commandment and they've done other things but if you knew... 14:36 The seventh commandment, because there some that are watching 14:40 that may not know, that is thou shalt not commit adultery, but 14:43 we are going to say right now that divorce is not the 14:45 unpardonable sin so that should not keep you out of the church. 14:49 As I indicated earlier this woman had had five husbands, 14:55 five and living with the sixth. And Christ did not make her 15:00 feel that it was OK to do that. He spoke to her as the church 15:06 should do but at the same time you must let the person who has 15:11 violated the commandment, let them know that Christ can 15:15 restore them and your duty, my duty, it to lead them to this 15:20 man and they will bring towns, villages and even cities like 15:25 the... Come see a man who has told me all that I have done. 15:29 Come to a church, come to Thompsonville, come to whatever 15:34 church it is. The church should be the gateway to heaven not 15:38 the courts of hell and people should see that, they should 15:42 know that, they should feel that. 15:46 So essentially the church, when people come into the church, the 15:50 church should let them know of the love of God. I mean, we are 15:54 the hands of the Lord that embrace others and we should 15:57 let them know that God is a God of restoration, he's a God of 16:01 new beginnings. Lamentations 3:22,23 say his mercies are new 16:05 every morning, his compassions fail not. So what you're saying 16:10 number one is to the church, wake up church, you're asleep 16:14 you know and you think that you've got this all right. Wake 16:18 up, pay attention to the hurting people around you because many 16:22 times people will. They will close off and they feel 16:26 frightened to share and they're sometimes frightened because 16:29 they think we're going to judge them which sadly that is a true 16:34 statement. There are times that people do judge. But it's a wake 16:38 up call to the church. Not just to the ministers. The ministers 16:41 are there to equip all the saints to do this work, not just 16:45 the ministers and deacons and deaconesses and the elders of 16:48 the church, but everyone has this responsibility if they're 16:52 part of the body of Christ. 16:53 That's true, but I think if the leaders lead others will follow. 17:01 By example, yes. But I do think that the church, I don't know 17:08 why it is not reaching out in the way... We tend to prioritize 17:13 sin. Some sins are OK, you can get by with them, and some we 17:18 think are more weighty than others. Sin is sin, you know, 17:24 the transgression of the law. 17:26 It doesn't matter if you're coveting or if you're committing 17:31 adultery this is sin. 17:33 This is sin and you've broken the commandments so in your 17:36 attitude towards me you're committing a sin too. 17:41 OK you have identified the problem. What's the solution? 17:44 The solution is Jesus through an agent called redemption therapy. 17:51 Now redemption therapy recognizes that a person has 17:56 fallen foul of God's law. It picks them up, helps them to 18:02 brush themselves off and be restored, be redeemed to their 18:06 Savior Jesus Christ. Now when you're connected into the source 18:10 when you put a plug into an electrical socket you know you 18:15 have power. So when you are connected then you can be 18:20 reconciled to your spouse, to your children, to whomever 18:26 relationship has been severed with you. So redemption therapy 18:32 uses wise counsels of God and teaches that if you obey the law 18:37 as God says to Moses and Moses says to the children of Israel 18:42 obey the law, obey. You know there are people who think that 18:47 the law has been done away with, but the Bible teaches different. 18:50 And so we must obey God because he is our creator. 18:56 And praise the Lord that he empowers us to obey. He works in 19:00 us to will and to act according to his good pleasure. Now as 19:04 we're teaching people though, first the church needs to be 19:09 more loving, more accepting and understand that we're merely 19:13 fishers of men. It's God job to do the cleaning of the fish. 19:16 So what we're doing is introducing them to the 19:20 scripture. But let's get down to some practical steps here. 19:24 Let's say that someone is watching right now and he's the 19:27 head elder of the church and he says Desmond's describing my 19:31 church. We are asleep. We do think that we are rich and in 19:35 need of nothing. But I understand now that we're not 19:39 being loving enough, we're not reaching out to people enough 19:43 and maybe someone even maybe even felt shunned by us. What do 19:47 we tell them. Does it begin with visitation, with programs, with 19:51 seminars. How does a church fix this? 19:53 Let me say first and foremost that people around us see our 19:59 theology and hear it. That's good. You know, and there are 20:03 churches where there might not be that resource in the church. 20:08 So you report that in, you bring that in. The gift of preaching 20:14 is not necessarily the gift of counseling. It's not every 20:17 preacher or every pastor who has that gift. And first of all he 20:21 needs to reconcile it sometimes. People go to a pastor or an 20:26 elder and the counsel they get it would have been better off 20:30 not having any counsel. It's sad but that's the reality. Now 20:33 if you recognize there are hurting people and you should 20:36 if you're a pastor and you're in touch with your community, you 20:40 should know who is hurting. And when that is happening and you 20:43 realize you don't have the resource in there, you borrow 20:47 from somewhere, you invite someone in to come and speak, 20:51 reach and counsel with those people. Because like the 20:55 children of Israel when you are oppressed you're not going to 20:58 be able to serve God in the way that you want to or God wants 21:02 you to. So he has to pull you out of that bondage and take you 21:06 somewhere else and that's what I think pastors and elders and 21:10 leaders of the church should help people, pull them out of 21:13 their oppression, pull them out of their depression. If you 21:17 don't have that, find out where it is. Call a counselor and a 21:20 therapist in to do a seminar, to do a counseling session, to do a 21:24 preaching and bring people together. At least sensitize 21:28 them as to what is available out there in the community, because 21:32 at the end of the day the problem is not going to go away 21:36 just by preaching. You need to heal and cleanse people of their 21:44 defilement. You know, one thing that J.D. 21:48 my husband who's an elder at our church, does have a pastor's 21:52 heart. He goes around Desmond and he can tell you everything 21:57 that's going on in anybody's life at our church and he will 22:02 often before church, before Sabbath School even, between 22:05 church and Sabbath School, I don't know how, but usually 22:08 he'll come up to me before the church service starts and he'll 22:11 say Honey, here's a list of 8 people that we're going to get 22:14 the elders together to pray for afterwards. There's that 22:18 sensitivity of reaching out and knowing when someone's hurting 22:22 and having special prayer because our church service isn't 22:26 just about preaching. I mean we worship in song, we worship in 22:31 the word, we worship in spirit and truth, part of our worship 22:35 is tithes and offerings but there should be that special 22:38 season in prayer for people who need healing. 22:41 Amen. If I came to your house, Shelley, and I said I'm hungry 22:45 and you said wait a minute and you went over and took the phone 22:48 up and call on all the elders and the pastor and said let's 22:51 have a season of prayer for Desmond, he's hungry. When I 22:56 leave your house, I'm still hungry. It's food I want, you 23:01 know. Christ always fed then gave them the spiritual food. 23:06 There is an imbalance that when you do one and not the other 23:11 there is a wobble in the church and we need to fix that wobble 23:16 sooner than later. There's a scripture, I'm not 23:19 sure if I can put my finger on it right now but it's in 1 John 23:24 chapter 3 and he says little children let us love in truth 23:29 and in deed rather than just in word. So what you're saying 23:34 is the embrace, the reaching out and if you did not know how to 23:40 give scriptural counseling, then to help them find a scriptural 23:47 counselor. Counseling is often used just in a crisis to fix a 23:53 broken problem. But if that's all that counseling is it just 23:58 means that it's only concerned with giving the best in a 24:04 troubled situation. Counseling would be so much better if we 24:10 could identify the cues from unfolding crisis and provide the 24:15 tools for people so they can help to fix their own problems. 24:20 Now you're enlarging this. We've been discussing about 24:23 people who are divorced coming into the church but we're kind 24:28 of expanding this now to say the church really needs to be 24:32 sensitive to its members because every family is under attack of 24:36 the enemy. Redemption therapy is not just 24:37 for divorced people. It's for people. Yeah. Even if your 24:43 marriage is a great one, you need to keep it great and 24:49 redemption therapy assists you, helps you to do that, because 24:53 you don't know what lies ahead. 24:54 You know I so agree with you that... I know that as J.D. and 25:00 I have grown in the Lord and we've grown in the word that 25:05 our marriage has just gotten better and better. I used to say 25:09 I didn't think it could get any better, but it just gets better 25:12 and better became Redemption Therapy is all about knowing 25:17 what God has to say, not only about our purpose but about his 25:21 plan for our life and it's using the scripture to help people 25:27 get on the right path and to see God's purpose for their life... 25:32 Life will improve if you rely on God. 25:34 Amen, Amen. Well I bet that your church puts you to good use. 25:40 Have you had instances where people have come into your 25:45 church and since you've started this program now that you've 25:50 see people are being changed? 25:51 Sure. In fact, I'm working with a lady now, she came from 25:56 another church and her husband walked out on her and she's 26:03 going through some trying times. She was advised to quit and 26:10 divorce him. But I made it known from the very outset that if you 26:13 were looking for a divorce I'm the wrong person, you've come to 26:16 the wrong person. That's not what I'm about. I'm here to 26:19 restore, not to destroy. So I'm still working with her. 26:23 It's been difficult because the other person is not responding 26:27 in the way that we would like him to. But I will not write him 26:30 out of the annals of future events because even though his 26:35 steps might be uncertain now, I believe that God can transform 26:39 that life and that's what I work towards, restoration, to redeem. 26:43 That's what Jesus always worked for. Well this is something that 26:47 I hope that in your church if you feel that you identify 26:53 with anything the Dr. Mattocks has pointed out today, I would 26:59 just encourage you to look to God, pray for some solutions and 27:05 think about how you can put new and practical pragmatic programs 27:10 into place to reach out and help others. Desmond it's just been a 27:16 joy. You are a delightful person. Thank you so much for 27:19 joining us. Thank you for having me and I 27:21 enjoyed being here. Well Glory to God. Amen 27:24 So he is the author of a book called Redemption Therapy. He 27:28 lives by that and counsels by inspiration and I hope that 27:33 you've enjoyed the program today I hope that this has been a wake 27:36 up call to many of us to understand how so many people 27:40 are hurting and they need a touch of love that God gives to 27:43 them through us. We are the channels of blessing. May the 27:47 grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Love of the Father and the 27:50 fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you today and always. 27:54 Thank you. |
Revised 2015-03-12