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Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn
and welcome again to Issues and
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Answers, a program where we talk
about issues that are important
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to your life and try to provide
Biblical answers. As I always
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do I'd like to start with a
scripture today because this is
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going to set up our topic and it
comes from Galatians chapter 6
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and verse 1. Paul's writing
to the Galatians. Listen to this
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wise advice that he gives. He
says: Brethren if any person is
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overtaken in misconduct or
sin of any sort, you who are
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spiritual, you who are
controlled by the Holy Spirit,
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led by the Holy Spirit, should
set him right and restore and
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reinstate him. But listen,
he says, without any sense of
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superiority, he's saying it can
happen to all of us and with all
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gentleness, keeping an attentive
eye on yourself lest you should
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be tempted also. The purpose
of the church, the purpose of
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Christian fellowship, is that we
might speak the truth boldly in
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love to one another, that we
might help restore because God
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is a God of restoration and
he wants us to give out that
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message of redemption and
restoration. Our topic today is
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called Benign Neglect. Now isn't
that an interesting title? We're
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going to learn from our special
guest what this is all about.
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Help me please to welcome back
Dr. Desmond Mattocks. Desmond
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it is so good to have you back.
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Thanks for having me.
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Now you are a Ph. D. in
Christian counseling and you
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have written a book called
Redemption Therapy: Counseling
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by Inspiration. Tell us what
redemption therapy is all about.
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Redemption Therapy in essence is
really making wise use of God's
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word in therapy. It is intended
to help or to assist the
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individual to follow
God's plan for marriage.
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OK, so you do focus a lot on
marital counseling, that is your
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primary focus. Yes. Now we've
had a couple of programs with
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you before that have been very
interesting. But let me ask you
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this question. Where do you
come up with this title Benign
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Neglect and what do you mean?
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I think the infinite willingness
of the church to reach out to
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to sinners and people who
have violated God's command
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is the goal and truth of
the gospel that Christ taught.
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And the scripture is hardly able
to give us a clearer example
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that Christ's relationship with
the woman at the well. Here was
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a woman who had been messing
around for quite some time and
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the man with whom she lived at
that time was not her husband.
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But what approach did Christ
take? Clearly she was caught
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red-handed. Clearly she was in
violation of the law and needed
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some rebuke but Christ spoke
to her, engaged her into to a
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conversation at the end of which
rather that feeling ashamed of
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herself, she went out to call
others and say come see a man.
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I think if we counselors and the
church could take note of how
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Christ dealt with this woman,
I think divorced people and the
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whole community at large would
be better for our experience.
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So am I to understand that
benign neglect means that the
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church has been sleeping
and maybe not intentionally
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neglecting these people but
we've not been counseling from
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scripture people who have been
injured in marital relationships
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or going through a tough time,
but also those who have suffered
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from divorce. Is
that what you're saying?
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The church is very long on
condemning people when they have
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done wrong but very short in
restoring them. And I think I
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see people come to church
each week and they're hurting,
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hurting badly and sermons don't
always cut it for them. They
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come to church empty and they
leave empty because of what is
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going on in their own personal
life, what's going on socially
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and otherwise and the church's
arms see somewhat short.
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It doesn't embrace them and I'm
not asking the church to not do
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its duty in letting people know
that they've done wrong but once
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you have done that you have a
duty to restore people to their
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original position and I think
this is where the church has
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neglected inadvertently,
unwittingly, it has neglected
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the caring and the loving
of people who have fallen foul
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of God's law. Well,
in all fairness there are
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some churches, I know we go to
a very loving church that's very
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accepting and reaching out.
There are some churches that
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have it right. But what you're
saying is by and large no matter
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what denomination there
are people who are walking into
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church and they are not getting
the love, acceptance, guidance
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they're not having their
spiritual needs met because I
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tell people the church
is a hospital for sinners.
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Someone recently said to me well
then if you come to a hospital
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once you're well you're supposed
to go out. I said no in this
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instance, once you're well you
become one of the doctors and
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the nurses to restore and help
others back to good spiritual
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health. Let's look
at the analogy of the
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hospital. You go into a hospital
and you see cancer patients, you
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see heart patients, you see
diabetes, you see the objective
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...you never hear the heart
patient talking about the cancer
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patient. Everybody is there to
get well and the great physician
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is Jesus Christ. So when a
person has violated the law, yes
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they have done wrong and they
need to know that they've done
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wrong just like the woman at the
well, but beyond that you have
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to restore them and I think
this is where the church fails.
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I recall some years ago I
was asked to do a Sabbath School
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class on family life and I began
to come up with my own topics,
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you know, and I realized
how hurting people were.
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Initially people were unable to
share their views because it was
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unheard of, it was such a taboo
thing, but after weeks of this
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three or four weeks, I realized
how many people in the church
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were hurting and they came
to church, not so much to hear a
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sermon. They came to be loved
and to be appreciated and this
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wasn't happening and after the
first few weeks it almost was as
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if the class was full of
people sharing and venting their
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frustration and out of that
class the idea for a book like
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this was Redemption Therapy.
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Wonderful, but now you've
touched on something that I'd
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like to elaborate on and see if
you agree. You said that it took
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a few weeks before people were
opening up. Don't you think that
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in part it's not just the
church's fault that this kind
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of redemption therapy hasn't
been going on but many times
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people come to church and they
use verbal camouflage and they
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put on their finest smile
and people say how are you doing
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and they'll say Happy Sabbath,
I'm doing great and they hold
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things because they're so afraid
that they will be judged that
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they hold things
within themselves.
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That is absolutely true. This
is where I think the church must
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take the initiative. Christ did
not wait for the woman to come
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to him. He initiated
conversation with her,
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he reached out and he touched
her. He spoke to her heart and
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her heart responded. I think
that the church must exercise
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love if it does have the love
of Jesus Christ, because no man
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is in a fit condition to condemn
another one or even to counsel
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him if they don't have the
Spirit of God. It doesn't matter
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how many Sabbaths you keep,
it doesn't matter how many times
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you come to church, you're not
keeping the Sabbath unless you
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have the Spirit of the one
who made the Sabbath and I think
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that's where the church is
falling down. So we have to
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reexamine why this is
happening or not happening.
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OK, so how I say it, and I think
you'll like this is that the
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Holy Spirit is not only the
spirit of holiness because God
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is holy but God is also love,
1 John 4:8 and 16 tell us this.
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So the Holy Spirit is the Spirit
of love and anything that we do
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that is not motivated by love is
not of God, so how can we then,
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the church, the body of Christ,
initiate things and what can we
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initiate to reach people who may
be closed off to us, who may be
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giving us a false front.
What can we do to rectify this
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situation? We have
to go to them and that
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means go to them in the
congregation, go to them in the
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home, speak to them trying to
find out what is happening with
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them in their marriages and let
them feel a sense of belonging,
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a sense of worth because that's
very important to all of us. All
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of us like to be appreciated and
loved. When you're going to a
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church you're returning you're
offerings and your tithes and
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you're not getting anything
back because the relationship is
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supposed to be reciprocated
relationship. That's how God
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made the total system that we
give and receive. You know, you
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take a flower, a plant; the
plant gives off oxygen and we
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gladly take that in. We add some
carbon to that and return CO2.
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The plant takes that back, makes
fruits and we eat and the cycle
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continues and that's how God's
universe operates. What we hold
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onto we hoard our feelings, we
hoard our love and we use it to
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beat other people over the
head with it. We must use it to
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improve ourselves so that we
can respond to them positively.
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That's where I think the church
is falling down. The church was
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called to be an example. So
if you go to church and you're
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feeling that. You get the
impression, well why am I going
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there and so we find people
playing hop scotch to different
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churches just to find something
that is alluding them over the
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years. And so it almost
has evidence like a fast food
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restaurant, McDonalds. Wherever
you go you get the same menu,
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the same feeling is being dished
out to you and that's what you
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eat each day as a person who has
been divorced. I think that is
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wrong scripturally and
otherwise. So I think the church
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needs to look at itself and
understand its own condition.
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I think the angel in Revelation
said it best, you're wretched,
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you're poor, you're blind church
You can't see your own self. You
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think you're rich, you think
you're righteous but you're
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not any better than these people
They have done wrong, yes, but
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you have a duty to restore them.
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Amen, amen, the scripture is
clear on that. Now would you say
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that those of us who are
spiritual that our goal should
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be to go to church not to gain
a blessing but rather to be a
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blessing. Now I'm very fortunate
Here in our Thompsonville church
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we have a church that is
filled with loving people and I
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guarantee that if someone comes
as a visitor they're going to be
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acknowledged all the way
around and we have a fellowship
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luncheon every weekend so that
people who attend church can
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come and be ministered to. Of
course with over 200 people we
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do a pretty good job of keeping
up with everyone. So it begins
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with the individual saint that
when we come to church we need
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to be looking out for people
who are coming in, looking out,
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making them feel good, inviting
them to our homes. But then are
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there some types of programs
that maybe the church can offer
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to help meet the
needs of these people?
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Well you know you said earlier
that to get your blessing you go
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and give blessing rather than
receiving but that's how you get
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your blessing, by
giving. Because when everybody's
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giving everybody's receiving.
And so the best way to impress
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is not to impress. It's just
to seek after what you can do to
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help someone else. So I think
that... you spoke about the
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Thompsonville church and I was
there last night so I did see a
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little bit of what you're
talking about. I was received
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very well and I appreciated that
I was able to telephone and tell
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my wife about that. And that's
what church is all about, really
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that you make people feel a
sense of belonging. You don't
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condemn them or take them apart
and you're not able to put them
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back together. That's the good
thing about Jesus. When he takes
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you apart he puts you back
together. And I think the church
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is failing in this, ministers
and elders and leaders are
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not reaching out in the way that
God intended for them to reach
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out. Yes people have done wrong
They have caviled at the seventh
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commandment and they've done
other things but if you knew...
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The seventh commandment, because
there some that are watching
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that may not know, that is thou
shalt not commit adultery, but
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we are going to say right
now that divorce is not the
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unpardonable sin so that should
not keep you out of the church.
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As I indicated earlier this
woman had had five husbands,
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five and living with the sixth.
And Christ did not make her
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feel that it was OK to do that.
He spoke to her as the church
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should do but at the same time
you must let the person who has
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violated the commandment,
let them know that Christ can
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restore them and your duty,
my duty, it to lead them to this
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man and they will bring towns,
villages and even cities like
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the... Come see a man who has
told me all that I have done.
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Come to a church, come to
Thompsonville, come to whatever
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church it is. The church should
be the gateway to heaven not
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the courts of hell and people
should see that, they should
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know that, they
should feel that.
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So essentially the church, when
people come into the church, the
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church should let them know of
the love of God. I mean, we are
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the hands of the Lord that
embrace others and we should
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let them know that God is a God
of restoration, he's a God of
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new beginnings. Lamentations
3:22,23 say his mercies are new
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every morning, his compassions
fail not. So what you're saying
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number one is to the church,
wake up church, you're asleep
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you know and you think that
you've got this all right. Wake
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up, pay attention to the hurting
people around you because many
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times people will. They
will close off and they feel
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frightened to share and they're
sometimes frightened because
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they think we're going to judge
them which sadly that is a true
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statement. There are times that
people do judge. But it's a wake
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up call to the church. Not just
to the ministers. The ministers
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are there to equip all the
saints to do this work, not just
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the ministers and deacons and
deaconesses and the elders of
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the church, but everyone has
this responsibility if they're
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part of the body of Christ.
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That's true, but I think if the
leaders lead others will follow.
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By example, yes. But I do think
that the church, I don't know
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why it is not reaching out in
the way... We tend to prioritize
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sin. Some sins are OK, you can
get by with them, and some we
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think are more weighty than
others. Sin is sin, you know,
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the transgression of the law.
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It doesn't matter if you're
coveting or if you're committing
00:17:26.37\00:17:31.57
adultery this is sin.
00:17:31.60\00:17:32.98
This is sin and you've broken
the commandments so in your
00:17:33.02\00:17:36.71
attitude towards me
you're committing a sin too.
00:17:36.74\00:17:41.00
OK you have identified the
problem. What's the solution?
00:17:41.04\00:17:44.46
The solution is Jesus through an
agent called redemption therapy.
00:17:44.50\00:17:51.39
Now redemption therapy
recognizes that a person has
00:17:51.42\00:17:56.57
fallen foul of God's law.
It picks them up, helps them to
00:17:56.61\00:18:02.06
brush themselves off and be
restored, be redeemed to their
00:18:02.10\00:18:06.49
Savior Jesus Christ. Now when
you're connected into the source
00:18:06.52\00:18:10.85
when you put a plug into an
electrical socket you know you
00:18:10.89\00:18:15.19
have power. So when you
are connected then you can be
00:18:15.22\00:18:20.87
reconciled to your spouse,
to your children, to whomever
00:18:20.91\00:18:26.49
relationship has been severed
with you. So redemption therapy
00:18:26.53\00:18:32.57
uses wise counsels of God and
teaches that if you obey the law
00:18:32.61\00:18:37.58
as God says to Moses and Moses
says to the children of Israel
00:18:37.62\00:18:42.58
obey the law, obey. You know
there are people who think that
00:18:42.62\00:18:47.51
the law has been done away with,
but the Bible teaches different.
00:18:47.55\00:18:50.76
And so we must obey God
because he is our creator.
00:18:50.79\00:18:56.74
And praise the Lord that he
empowers us to obey. He works in
00:18:56.78\00:19:00.89
us to will and to act according
to his good pleasure. Now as
00:19:00.92\00:19:04.80
we're teaching people though,
first the church needs to be
00:19:04.84\00:19:09.10
more loving, more accepting
and understand that we're merely
00:19:09.14\00:19:12.98
fishers of men. It's God job
to do the cleaning of the fish.
00:19:13.01\00:19:16.82
So what we're doing is
introducing them to the
00:19:16.85\00:19:20.65
scripture. But let's get down
to some practical steps here.
00:19:20.69\00:19:24.21
Let's say that someone is
watching right now and he's the
00:19:24.24\00:19:27.93
head elder of the church and
he says Desmond's describing my
00:19:27.96\00:19:31.90
church. We are asleep. We do
think that we are rich and in
00:19:31.94\00:19:35.85
need of nothing. But I
understand now that we're not
00:19:35.88\00:19:39.66
being loving enough, we're not
reaching out to people enough
00:19:39.70\00:19:43.12
and maybe someone even maybe
even felt shunned by us. What do
00:19:43.16\00:19:47.09
we tell them. Does it begin with
visitation, with programs, with
00:19:47.12\00:19:51.02
seminars. How
does a church fix this?
00:19:51.05\00:19:53.68
Let me say first and foremost
that people around us see our
00:19:53.72\00:19:59.29
theology and hear it. That's
good. You know, and there are
00:19:59.33\00:20:03.75
churches where there might not
be that resource in the church.
00:20:03.78\00:20:08.91
So you report that in, you bring
that in. The gift of preaching
00:20:08.95\00:20:14.05
is not necessarily the gift
of counseling. It's not every
00:20:14.08\00:20:17.72
preacher or every pastor who has
that gift. And first of all he
00:20:17.76\00:20:21.85
needs to reconcile it sometimes.
People go to a pastor or an
00:20:21.89\00:20:26.11
elder and the counsel they get
it would have been better off
00:20:26.14\00:20:30.34
not having any counsel. It's
sad but that's the reality. Now
00:20:30.38\00:20:33.44
if you recognize there are
hurting people and you should
00:20:33.47\00:20:36.46
if you're a pastor and you're in
touch with your community, you
00:20:36.50\00:20:40.16
should know who is hurting. And
when that is happening and you
00:20:40.19\00:20:43.82
realize you don't have the
resource in there, you borrow
00:20:43.85\00:20:47.39
from somewhere, you invite
someone in to come and speak,
00:20:47.42\00:20:51.43
reach and counsel with
those people. Because like the
00:20:51.47\00:20:55.41
children of Israel when you are
oppressed you're not going to
00:20:55.45\00:20:58.56
be able to serve God in the way
that you want to or God wants
00:20:58.59\00:21:02.02
you to. So he has to pull you
out of that bondage and take you
00:21:02.06\00:21:06.35
somewhere else and that's what
I think pastors and elders and
00:21:06.38\00:21:10.06
leaders of the church should
help people, pull them out of
00:21:10.09\00:21:13.56
their oppression, pull them
out of their depression. If you
00:21:13.60\00:21:17.18
don't have that, find out where
it is. Call a counselor and a
00:21:17.22\00:21:20.86
therapist in to do a seminar, to
do a counseling session, to do a
00:21:20.89\00:21:24.50
preaching and bring people
together. At least sensitize
00:21:24.53\00:21:28.54
them as to what is available out
there in the community, because
00:21:28.58\00:21:32.58
at the end of the day the
problem is not going to go away
00:21:32.61\00:21:36.03
just by preaching. You need to
heal and cleanse people of their
00:21:36.07\00:21:44.58
defilement. You
know, one thing that J.D.
00:21:44.61\00:21:47.99
my husband who's an elder at
our church, does have a pastor's
00:21:48.03\00:21:52.72
heart. He goes around Desmond
and he can tell you everything
00:21:52.76\00:21:57.88
that's going on in anybody's
life at our church and he will
00:21:57.92\00:22:02.21
often before church, before
Sabbath School even, between
00:22:02.24\00:22:05.43
church and Sabbath School,
I don't know how, but usually
00:22:05.47\00:22:08.59
he'll come up to me before the
church service starts and he'll
00:22:08.63\00:22:11.76
say Honey, here's a list of 8
people that we're going to get
00:22:11.80\00:22:14.95
the elders together to pray
for afterwards. There's that
00:22:14.98\00:22:18.06
sensitivity of reaching out and
knowing when someone's hurting
00:22:18.10\00:22:21.97
and having special prayer
because our church service isn't
00:22:22.01\00:22:26.48
just about preaching. I mean we
worship in song, we worship in
00:22:26.51\00:22:30.99
the word, we worship in spirit
and truth, part of our worship
00:22:31.02\00:22:35.47
is tithes and offerings but
there should be that special
00:22:35.50\00:22:38.77
season in prayer for
people who need healing.
00:22:38.80\00:22:41.11
Amen. If I came to your house,
Shelley, and I said I'm hungry
00:22:41.15\00:22:44.99
and you said wait a minute and
you went over and took the phone
00:22:45.02\00:22:48.65
up and call on all the elders
and the pastor and said let's
00:22:48.69\00:22:51.67
have a season of prayer for
Desmond, he's hungry. When I
00:22:51.71\00:22:56.02
leave your house, I'm still
hungry. It's food I want, you
00:22:56.05\00:23:01.22
know. Christ always fed then
gave them the spiritual food.
00:23:01.26\00:23:06.07
There is an imbalance that when
you do one and not the other
00:23:06.11\00:23:11.31
there is a wobble in the church
and we need to fix that wobble
00:23:11.34\00:23:16.51
sooner than later.
There's a scripture, I'm not
00:23:16.54\00:23:18.98
sure if I can put my finger on
it right now but it's in 1 John
00:23:19.02\00:23:24.57
chapter 3 and he says little
children let us love in truth
00:23:24.60\00:23:29.11
and in deed rather than just
in word. So what you're saying
00:23:29.15\00:23:34.73
is the embrace, the reaching out
and if you did not know how to
00:23:34.76\00:23:40.29
give scriptural counseling, then
to help them find a scriptural
00:23:40.32\00:23:47.23
counselor. Counseling is often
used just in a crisis to fix a
00:23:47.27\00:23:53.53
broken problem. But if that's
all that counseling is it just
00:23:53.57\00:23:58.49
means that it's only concerned
with giving the best in a
00:23:58.53\00:24:04.28
troubled situation. Counseling
would be so much better if we
00:24:04.31\00:24:10.65
could identify the cues from
unfolding crisis and provide the
00:24:10.69\00:24:15.74
tools for people so they can
help to fix their own problems.
00:24:15.77\00:24:20.79
Now you're enlarging this.
We've been discussing about
00:24:20.82\00:24:23.92
people who are divorced coming
into the church but we're kind
00:24:23.96\00:24:28.41
of expanding this now to say
the church really needs to be
00:24:28.44\00:24:32.82
sensitive to its members because
every family is under attack of
00:24:32.86\00:24:36.22
the enemy.
Redemption therapy is not just
00:24:36.25\00:24:37.65
for divorced people. It's
for people. Yeah. Even if your
00:24:37.69\00:24:43.37
marriage is a great one,
you need to keep it great and
00:24:43.41\00:24:49.02
redemption therapy assists you,
helps you to do that, because
00:24:49.06\00:24:53.15
you don't know what lies ahead.
00:24:53.18\00:24:54.64
You know I so agree with you
that... I know that as J.D. and
00:24:54.68\00:25:00.58
I have grown in the Lord
and we've grown in the word that
00:25:00.61\00:25:05.50
our marriage has just gotten
better and better. I used to say
00:25:05.53\00:25:09.09
I didn't think it could get any
better, but it just gets better
00:25:09.13\00:25:12.66
and better became Redemption
Therapy is all about knowing
00:25:12.69\00:25:17.07
what God has to say, not only
about our purpose but about his
00:25:17.10\00:25:21.65
plan for our life and it's using
the scripture to help people
00:25:21.69\00:25:27.08
get on the right path and to see
God's purpose for their life...
00:25:27.12\00:25:32.48
Life will improve
if you rely on God.
00:25:32.51\00:25:34.89
Amen, Amen. Well I bet that your
church puts you to good use.
00:25:34.93\00:25:40.85
Have you had instances
where people have come into your
00:25:40.88\00:25:45.74
church and since you've started
this program now that you've
00:25:45.78\00:25:50.14
see people are being changed?
00:25:50.17\00:25:51.37
Sure. In fact, I'm working
with a lady now, she came from
00:25:51.41\00:25:56.62
another church and her husband
walked out on her and she's
00:25:56.65\00:26:03.44
going through some trying times.
She was advised to quit and
00:26:03.48\00:26:10.20
divorce him. But I made it known
from the very outset that if you
00:26:10.24\00:26:13.29
were looking for a divorce I'm
the wrong person, you've come to
00:26:13.32\00:26:16.34
the wrong person. That's
not what I'm about. I'm here to
00:26:16.37\00:26:19.75
restore, not to destroy.
So I'm still working with her.
00:26:19.79\00:26:23.10
It's been difficult because the
other person is not responding
00:26:23.14\00:26:27.05
in the way that we would like
him to. But I will not write him
00:26:27.09\00:26:30.73
out of the annals of future
events because even though his
00:26:30.77\00:26:35.13
steps might be uncertain now,
I believe that God can transform
00:26:35.17\00:26:39.08
that life and that's what I work
towards, restoration, to redeem.
00:26:39.11\00:26:43.28
That's what Jesus always worked
for. Well this is something that
00:26:43.31\00:26:47.45
I hope that in your church
if you feel that you identify
00:26:47.48\00:26:53.70
with anything the Dr. Mattocks
has pointed out today, I would
00:26:53.74\00:26:59.78
just encourage you to look to
God, pray for some solutions and
00:26:59.82\00:27:05.65
think about how you can put new
and practical pragmatic programs
00:27:05.69\00:27:10.91
into place to reach out and help
others. Desmond it's just been a
00:27:10.94\00:27:16.13
joy. You are a delightful
person. Thank you so much for
00:27:16.16\00:27:19.01
joining us. Thank
you for having me and I
00:27:19.04\00:27:21.69
enjoyed being here.
Well Glory to God. Amen
00:27:21.73\00:27:24.31
So he is the author of a book
called Redemption Therapy. He
00:27:24.35\00:27:28.85
lives by that and counsels
by inspiration and I hope that
00:27:28.89\00:27:33.32
you've enjoyed the program today
I hope that this has been a wake
00:27:33.36\00:27:36.52
up call to many of us to
understand how so many people
00:27:36.55\00:27:39.98
are hurting and they need a
touch of love that God gives to
00:27:40.02\00:27:43.96
them through us. We are the
channels of blessing. May the
00:27:43.99\00:27:47.86
grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Love of the Father and the
00:27:47.90\00:27:48.93
fellowship of the Holy Spirit
be with you today and always.
00:27:50.74\00:27:54.90
Thank you.
00:27:54.93\00:27:55.96