Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Desmond Mattocks
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000270
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00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:32 Issues and Answers. I'm very excited today because 00:35 we have back with us Dr. Desmond Mattocks. 00:39 Desmond, thank you so much for coming back. Now you have a 00:43 Ph.D. in Christian Counseling. What is the name of your 00:48 ministry? Redemption Therapy. 00:50 Redemption Therapy and actually you've written a book by the 00:54 same title. Yes I have. Redemption Therapy: Counseling 00:57 by Inspiration. Now we are going to be talking today about the 01:02 role of marriage in society and Desmond has joined us from 01:07 Miramar, Florida. He's traveled up to 3ABN. I want to give you a 01:12 scripture that will kind of set this up for the role of marriage 01:17 in society. In Genesis 2:24 when the Lord sanctified marriage, 01:22 when he brought people into a covenant agreement he says: 01:26 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall 01:32 become united and cleave to his wife and they shall become one 01:38 flesh. One flesh. This is an interesting thing. How do we 01:43 understand, or how do you understand, the original purpose 01:48 of marriage, Desmond? As you indicated in Genesis 2:24 01:53 God's intent for marriage was that all marriages should run 01:59 their course. It was to last a lifetime but in this world that 02:06 we live man has redefined marriage and marriage has 02:12 become until remarriage. 02:16 Okay, let me repeat that. What man's new definition is I'll 02:20 marry you until I decide that I would rather remarry someone 02:24 else. Okay. Right. You know, we see someone 02:28 that we like and after 10 or 15 years we think, well I would 02:33 like a new model. The old model that I have, I need to trade it 02:39 in and so we find excuses and we discard our spouses and then we 02:45 bring the frown of God upon ourselves. God has a controversy 02:51 with us. So this postmodern world in which we live with it's 02:57 postmodern God has come to represent a compromise between 03:03 the great I Am that was seen on Mount Sinai by Moses and the 03:08 god of philosophers. So that's the kind of god that now runs 03:13 this world or at least the ideas of that god. It is based on 03:18 philosophy, not by the God of Mount Sinai or the God of 03:23 Abraham. By the God of the Bible. Right. Explain to us the 03:29 sanctity of marriage. Marriage is like a sanctuary. 03:36 It is supposed to be pure. There should be integrity. 03:43 The marriage bed should not be soiled. It is when two people 03:48 become one, intimately and otherwise, it ought not to be 03:53 invaded by spurious thoughts by anyone else. God said, Let no 03:57 one put asunder, let no one be an irritant to what is going on 04:01 between these two people. If anything needs fixing, let it be 04:07 fixed by God himself, because it was he who put them together. 04:13 Now what man has done, he has gone downtown to the courts 04:19 and has asked the divorce judge to undo what almighty God has 04:23 done and that's a violation of the seventh commandment. So man 04:28 has kept caviling at the seventh commandment and God is 04:32 displeased with this. You know, people say why is the world in 04:38 the state it's in? And they legislate and they bring bills 04:43 out and legislation to fix what is happening and they can't 04:47 understand that this is a spiritual problem; that if you 04:52 fix the families you will fix the society. 04:55 You know, it occurred to me first two things, that we need 05:01 to explain and define the word sanctity. When we say that God 05:06 sanctified marriage he set it apart for holy purposes and so 05:11 God has a holy purpose when he said that the man and the woman 05:16 should become one. I did a deep study on this and the one that 05:20 God is talking about is being one in purpose, thought and 05:25 action. He created woman to be a helpmate to her husband and 05:29 the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church and the 05:33 wife to be submissive in that the husband is the tie breaker 05:39 is how I explain this. But now when you said that people run 05:43 down to the divorce courts for the fixing let's go back. 05:46 Because our last program we talked about what redemption 05:50 therapy was. Explain to us what this book is about. What is the 05:55 meaning of redemption therapy? Rather than running to the 05:58 court what should we be running to? 06:01 The Bible teaches very clearly that when brokenness has taken 06:09 place we need to seek God's help because only God can heal us and 06:16 can cleanse us from our defilements. Now redemption 06:21 therapy teaches exactly what God is teaching; that you don't go 06:31 and ask somebody else to fix your marriage. You ask God. 06:36 You bring the word of God as a guide, as your measurement for 06:43 how you should live in life. So redemption therapy is intended 06:51 to use God's word wisely in marriage. So we don't live by 06:57 the counselor's opinion. We don't live by what other people 07:03 are saying to us. The Bible says we live by every word that comes 07:08 out of God's mouth. We spoke earlier about sanctification. 07:14 You know God put it aside and he sanctified it. 07:17 God only sanctifies things that he can justify. So if you live 07:22 in a marriage relationship and your actions are not in keeping 07:28 with God's will then you're not being sanctified and you'll 07:32 never see glorification because you have to be justified, then 07:37 sanctified then glorified. 07:39 All right now, there's a lot of people who understand these 07:43 terms but let's go back for some who are listening to us today 07:48 who don't understand what it means to be justified and 07:51 and glorified. We've talked about sanctified means to be 07:55 set apart for a holy purpose, a purpose that God has designed. 07:59 What does it mean to be justified and glorified? 08:02 Well to be justified is that your action in front of God 08:07 is approved, basically. Whatever you're doing in life, the way 08:11 your living your life, the way you function in life pleases 08:15 God. Because that's your sole function in life. You have no 08:19 other purpose in life but to live to please God, to make God 08:23 look good in every given situation. 08:25 To bring God glory. Yes, to bring God glory and so 08:28 when God is pleased with your action you are justified. 08:33 Abraham was that type of person. He was justified before God and 08:37 he became a friend of God. So we too ought to please God and 08:40 become a friend of God and through that process, once you 08:44 are justified by God, then you are sanctified. 08:47 And we are justified by faith as Abraham was. We are 08:52 sanctified by faith as well. I mean, the Bible is clear on that 08:56 To be glorified means what? 08:58 To be glorified is really to be brought into the kingdom of God 09:07 in terms of all the gifts that God has given us in life; to be 09:15 experiencing the joys that Christ brings and so when he 09:21 comes in his glory we'll all be glorified with him and share 09:25 in his kingdom. So is it fair to say, since the Bible clearly 09:28 shows that the glory of the Lord was his character when Moses 09:33 said show me your glory. What happened? God came down and he 09:38 explained his character. Moses only got to see his back. 09:42 He explained his character. So to be glorified is to be changed 09:46 by God to be conformed to the image of his Son Jesus. 09:51 This is what when we talk about being glorified in the end how 09:55 we all become just like he is. 09:57 So the point is to reproduce the character of Christ in your life 10:01 That's really what we are striving to do through our 10:04 experiences on this earth and certainly in our marriage. 10:07 So if God then created us as his children and then when we are 10:11 born again he adopts us as his children... The purpose of 10:16 marriage was... many Christians say well the purpose of marriage 10:21 was to reproduce and fill the earth. But God had more than 10:27 that in mind didn't he? 10:29 Certainly. Certainly Malachi chapter 2 God makes it clear 10:35 that not only to fill the earth but he wanted Godly offspring. 10:40 He wanted earth full of Godly people, not of carnal-minded 10:44 people. That's not what he intended. So when you have a 10:49 world full of people who are reproducing God's character, you 10:53 have a holy nation of people and the Bible says that's what we 10:57 ought to become. We are royal. You know, when you look at 11:02 royalty... I grew up in England and when I see the Queen and 11:07 Prince Charles in terms of the way of how they conduct 11:10 themselves, with dignity and so on and so forth. That's how 11:15 royalty behaves. But as a people we seem to be living in the base 11:21 condition of this world. We don't behave as if we belong to 11:25 God. We have abandoned God's principles so we don't behave 11:30 like royalty at all. So we're not reproducing God's character 11:34 in our lives. We have succumbed to the definition of marriage in 11:39 the world and so God has a problem with us. 11:42 So redemption therapy now comes and reminds us that listen, the 11:47 purpose for which you are born is to glorify God. You are set 11:52 apart for holy use. But you have taken on the principles of 11:57 someone else. You need to abandon that, you need to return 12:01 to be redeemed to your original condition, to have a 12:05 relationship with God that Adam had, to be restored to your 12:09 original position. Desmond, would you agree that 12:11 the family, when we're talking about the purpose and the role 12:14 of marriage in society and the family, would you agree that 12:18 this is the smallest unit of the church and so the church is 12:21 made up of families. We're all a part of the body of Christ. 12:26 Now if you come into a family by adoption... I know I've got a 12:32 question here if I can frame it. If people come into marriage, 12:37 let's just make it simple, with wrong expectations the marriage 12:44 is doomed, is it not? Yes. So the carnal mind, the one who is 12:48 not following the Lord, their expectations of marriage... 12:53 I listen to, sometimes I'll turn on some talk shows just to 12:57 see... because you can get so spiritually minded you're no 13:00 earthly good, if you don't know what's going on in the world, 13:03 and I'll turn something on occasionally to watch and I'm 13:06 amazed when I listen to people, why they're getting married. 13:10 Especially if you're listening to someone who is famous. 13:14 You know they enter in an out of marriage so rapidly. 13:18 What happened to change people's expectations of marriage 13:22 compared to what God wants? 13:26 Well if the church was playing the role that it was supposed 13:33 to play, I think people's attitude would be different. 13:40 People come into marriage with huge expectations and when 13:44 they come into it and they realize that these things are 13:49 not working out, then they decide that we must abandon 13:53 this. Now the only thing that can change a person's heart is 13:59 Jesus Christ. You can't change a person by beating them with your 14:04 love. Whatever love you have for your spouse must be used to 14:08 improve yourself not to beat them over the head with it. 14:11 Explain what you mean. You said that you can't improve your 14:15 marriage by beating them of the head with love. 14:17 Sometimes I've seen couples come to counseling and one wants the 14:22 counselor to fix the other one. If only he would do that or if 14:26 only she would do that then everything would be all right. 14:30 And it doesn't work that way. You know, it is about working on 14:35 the individual's heart. So when transformation takes place in 14:40 they heart they begin to see things differently on the 14:43 outside, and that can only be done by Jesus Christ. So it is 14:47 not the opinions, it's not how you look, it's not how you dress 14:52 it's what takes place internally. 14:54 So redemption therapy is about using the word of God to counsel 15:00 people and let them know that God said... Psalm 107:20 he sent 15:05 his word to heal us. So when marriages are not fulfilling the 15:10 role in society that they were intended to and if people have 15:14 wrong expectations or even a wrong perspective of what 15:18 marriage is all about, it's almost like their marriage is 15:22 doomed. Would you agree that some of what Hollywood has done 15:27 to us is set up this idea that marriage is going to be this 15:32 romantic journey. Women go into this idea that I've met my 15:36 prince charming and everything is going to be wonderful. 15:40 That's not realistic is it? 15:42 Well it's not because what Hollywood has done is glorified 15:48 cohabitation. When we see this filth coming out of Hollywood, 15:54 the TV that comes into our homes sometimes is a pipeline of filth 15:59 that comes into our homes. So we build up these misconceptions 16:03 and misperceptions of what marriage is and we begin to live 16:07 as these people live. But that's not the way God intended. 16:12 God intended his people to be holy and to be examples. 16:16 But when you look around and I say to people in redemption 16:20 therapy, if you look around and you don't see sufficient 16:24 examples be the example. You be the example. Because sometimes 16:29 we're looking and it's not there and because everybody else is 16:33 doing what feels good, we think that's all right, even the 16:37 church and that's not the case. You know, if David had not 16:40 messed around with the seventh commandment we probably would 16:43 have had Psalm 51. And the seventh commandment is 16:47 marriage. Really God is saying listen 16:48 David, I made you king as a little boy. I reserved you to 16:54 take over and become king of Israel and everything I gave you 16:59 I saved you from all the scrapes in life. Look what you've done. 17:03 You have given occasions for others to reproach my name. 17:08 So let me explain for some of our listeners that the seventh 17:12 commandment is Thou shalt not commit adultery and David as 17:16 king of Israel took Bathsheba who was another man's wife 17:21 and Psalm 51 is his psalm of repentance where he is saying 17:26 oh wash me, purge me with hyssop and I will be whiter than snow. 17:30 Restore to me the joy of your salvation then I'll teach 17:33 transgressors your ways. So this was his psalm of deep repentance 17:37 after he recognized that God had the finger on him. 17:42 Amen, but it shows something else; that David was a man after 17:47 God's own heart. He was favored by God, but God did not allow 17:53 him to get away with that sinful act. So it shows you how 17:58 particular God is about marriage That here is King David, a man 18:03 of God's own heart, a man who was striving to reflect God's 18:07 character and he did wrong. And God said as a consequence of 18:12 this the sword will never be removed from your house. 18:15 And as we read David's story we see how many things happened 18:19 to him, incest and murder and all this kind of thing because 18:23 of what he had done. You know, the way I explain that 18:26 because I've had people ask me, Desmond, did God accept David's 18:32 repentance? Absolutely. 1 Kings 14:8, somewhere around there 18:37 said that God after David died said to Jeroboam, You've not 18:42 been as my servant David who did only what was right in my 18:47 eyes. Well so God accepted his repentance and he forgave him 18:52 but sometimes we put consequences into action in the 18:56 physical realm that cannot be stopped after our sin. So let me 19:02 bring this back then. If we are looking at the role of marriage 19:07 in society, it is to reflect the glory of God, to let people know 19:12 what God's love is all about and to bring the story of 19:18 redemption to people. What happens to people spiritually 19:23 when they don't try to work on their marriage and let God 19:29 fix their marriage, what happens to them spiritually if they go 19:33 down that pathway of divorce? 19:36 Well the same thim that happened to Adam. Satan comes along and 19:40 says, you don't really have to do what God asked you to do. 19:47 You can do your own thing. So Adam died spiritually and then 19:54 physically and that's what happens to marriage. It dies 19:59 spiritually because the spiritual element is part of 20:04 man, it's coded in your DNA, you can't get that out. From the 20:08 very history of the morning of creation God put that element in 20:12 you. So when you don't encourage or build on or develop the 20:17 spiritual image you slowly die and you're no longer able to 20:22 reflect God's character. So Adam slowly died spiritually. Ellen 20:27 White said that the first time Adam saw a leaf fall from the 20:32 tree that's when he understood exactly how dangerous sin is 20:36 because he never saw a leaf fall from a tree before. So we become 20:42 like a leper. After while the senses are numb. You can't feel 20:47 and you become careless. You bounce yourself against walls 20:52 and all and you're not feeling anything. You're not being led 20:56 by the Spirit of God so you begin to do things that 21:00 initially were repulsive to you. That's what happens when you 21:04 die spiritually. The Holy Spirit is no longer leading you so you 21:10 become careless in life. So these are like leper defilement. 21:14 You notice in the Bible, there are, I think, three or four 21:19 instances in the Bible where leprosy was not really a disease 21:24 it was a consequence of defilement. We have Gehazi 21:29 with greed, we have Miriam which was speaking evil of her brother 21:34 and we have Moses himself who had doubts about God and God 21:38 really in essence said Moses look at your heart, put our hand 21:42 in your bosom. I think this day God is saying to all of us in 21:46 marriage, put your hand in your bosom and pull it out. When 21:51 Moses pulled it out it became leprous. I think that was 21:55 defilement. You notice the Bible didn't say Christ healed the 22:00 lepers. It says he cleansed it. So redemption therapy is about 22:05 cleansing people's defilement because I think some of the 22:09 conditions that we have in life that we're going to the medical 22:12 doctor for, they are really not diseases as such, they are 22:16 defilement. So redemption therapy is teaching cleansing 22:21 of our defilement which is what divorce is. 22:24 Right. So if you have a couple who is coming to your office 22:28 for Christian counseling, let's say it's me and I'm coming and 22:33 I'm saying it's over. You know that straw that broke the 22:37 camel's back. You know I'm thinking that it would be better 22:41 for me as a Christian, you know, I cannot live with this man, I 22:44 cannot live a Christian life with this man. I am ready to 22:46 divorce him. What are you going to tell me? What's going to be 22:50 the effect of divorce and how am I wrecking the role of 22:53 marriage in society, God's role? 22:56 Well not so much to tell you but for us to identify options 23:02 as to what is the best fit for your marriage and the best fit 23:08 is Jesus Christ. We will go through his word, we will find 23:13 out why you feel the way you're feeling, where you yourself may 23:18 have contributed to the way you're feeling. I would probably 23:23 as you, I would say, Shelley what is it that you want out of 23:29 your marriage? I would ask you what does happiness look like to 23:35 you? Define it, happiness. Because what is love? What does 23:39 it mean to you. Because love is better appreciated, better seen 23:44 than defined. So sometimes people come to counseling and 23:49 they really don't know what it is that is happening in their 23:53 marriage. But let's say for just a moment, 23:55 Desmond, that I come to you and I say, okay, happiness would be 24:00 not arguing every night, not having this man come in drunk. 24:05 Happiness would be, you know, what I want out of my marriage 24:09 is peace and I don't get it here. Now would you as a 24:15 counselor tell me that quit worrying about fixing this man 24:20 get right with the Lord spiritually myself and just what 24:25 pray and watch the Lord, I mean watch what God can do in this 24:29 man's life. What would you tell me. 24:30 No, no. Not at all. Again I wouldn't tell you but we would 24:34 would work through what would be best for both you and your 24:38 husband and praying alone won't do it. Sometimes we are the 24:43 answer to our own prayers. We have to quit doing some of the 24:47 things that we're doing. You know, if you pray and you pray 24:50 and you pray it doesn't mean that your husband will stop 24:54 drinking or will stop doing the things that he's doing. No, he 24:58 has to take responsibility for his own action but you help him 25:02 through the process and through the word of God he will see how 25:06 he should walk, you know, humbly before God and get 25:12 rid of some of the things that he's doing. It is a repugnant 25:18 task sometimes to fix a marriage because we tend to give our 25:23 opinions of what should be done and what shouldn't be done 25:25 but the Bible is very, very clear about what is permissible 25:32 and what is condemned by God. So the whole idea of redemption 25:38 therapy is going through identifying, because sometime we 25:41 don't even identify what the problem is. So we come in 25:45 thinking that it's my husband or it's my wife. We must first 25:48 identify what the problem is. 25:50 And we would agree that the problem is always spiritual. 25:54 It is always spiritual. That's the story. So if you connect, 25:59 or reconnect should I say, and work towards God's program then 26:02 ultimately... It's not going to happen overnight because some 26:06 of these things are deep-seated and deep-rooted and they take 26:10 time. So we work through the program, adhering to God's 26:13 principle and ultimately you will get out of the rut. 26:17 So part of this, then, I would suppose begins with defining 26:21 what the role of marriage is in society and letting people have 26:26 realistic expectations and a parameter. You have to frame it 26:31 in such a way that they understand the parameters of 26:34 marriage. So I just think that this is a very exciting topic 26:39 and I know that the Lord has used you on many occasions to 26:44 let his healing flow through his word by your direction. 26:49 I do really want you to come back and talk about the one 26:53 thing we haven't addressed is the role of the church in this 26:57 situation. So will you come back? 27:00 Sure, I will do that. That's wonderful. Desmond, 27:02 thank you so much. The book that you've written is 27:05 Redemption Therapy: Counseling by Inspiration by Dr. Desmond 27:10 A. L. Mattocks. You've got 26 years of experience so I guess 27:16 you know what you're talking about here; 26 years of 27:19 experience in marriage. Praise the Lord. Well thank you so 27:23 much for being with us. Please tune in again next time because 27:27 we're going to be talking about the role of the church and how 27:32 the church can reach out to help married couples who are in 27:35 problems. And you know we can all get in problems in our 27:39 marriage if we get to where we're looking at it from a 27:43 selfish aspect and not from a self-sacrificing love aspect. 27:46 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father 27:50 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always. 27:53 Thank you. |
Revised 2014-12-17