Hello, I'm Shelley
Quinn and welcome again to
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Issues and Answers. I'm
very excited today because
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we have back with us
Dr. Desmond Mattocks.
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Desmond, thank you so much
for coming back. Now you have a
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Ph.D. in Christian Counseling.
What is the name of your
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ministry? Redemption Therapy.
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Redemption Therapy and actually
you've written a book by the
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same title. Yes I have.
Redemption Therapy: Counseling
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by Inspiration. Now we are going
to be talking today about the
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role of marriage in society
and Desmond has joined us from
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Miramar, Florida. He's traveled
up to 3ABN. I want to give you a
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scripture that will kind of set
this up for the role of marriage
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in society. In Genesis 2:24 when
the Lord sanctified marriage,
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when he brought people into
a covenant agreement he says:
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Therefore a man shall leave his
father and his mother and shall
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become united and cleave to his
wife and they shall become one
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flesh. One flesh. This is
an interesting thing. How do we
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understand, or how do you
understand, the original purpose
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of marriage, Desmond? As
you indicated in Genesis 2:24
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God's intent for marriage was
that all marriages should run
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their course. It was to last a
lifetime but in this world that
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we live man has redefined
marriage and marriage has
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become until remarriage.
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Okay, let me repeat that. What
man's new definition is I'll
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marry you until I decide that
I would rather remarry someone
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else. Okay. Right.
You know, we see someone
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that we like and after 10 or
15 years we think, well I would
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like a new model. The old model
that I have, I need to trade it
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in and so we find excuses and we
discard our spouses and then we
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bring the frown of God upon
ourselves. God has a controversy
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with us. So this postmodern
world in which we live with it's
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postmodern God has come to
represent a compromise between
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the great I Am that was seen
on Mount Sinai by Moses and the
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god of philosophers. So that's
the kind of god that now runs
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this world or at least the ideas
of that god. It is based on
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philosophy, not by the God
of Mount Sinai or the God of
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Abraham. By the God of the
Bible. Right. Explain to us the
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sanctity of marriage.
Marriage is like a sanctuary.
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It is supposed to be
pure. There should be integrity.
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The marriage bed should not
be soiled. It is when two people
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become one, intimately and
otherwise, it ought not to be
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invaded by spurious thoughts
by anyone else. God said, Let no
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one put asunder, let no one be
an irritant to what is going on
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between these two people. If
anything needs fixing, let it be
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fixed by God himself, because
it was he who put them together.
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Now what man has done, he
has gone downtown to the courts
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and has asked the divorce judge
to undo what almighty God has
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done and that's a violation of
the seventh commandment. So man
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has kept caviling at the
seventh commandment and God is
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displeased with this. You know,
people say why is the world in
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the state it's in? And they
legislate and they bring bills
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out and legislation to fix
what is happening and they can't
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understand that this is a
spiritual problem; that if you
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fix the families you
will fix the society.
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You know, it occurred to me
first two things, that we need
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to explain and define the word
sanctity. When we say that God
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sanctified marriage he set it
apart for holy purposes and so
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God has a holy purpose when he
said that the man and the woman
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should become one. I did a deep
study on this and the one that
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God is talking about is being
one in purpose, thought and
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action. He created woman to
be a helpmate to her husband and
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the husband to love the wife as
Christ loved the church and the
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wife to be submissive in that
the husband is the tie breaker
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is how I explain this. But now
when you said that people run
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down to the divorce courts
for the fixing let's go back.
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Because our last program we
talked about what redemption
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therapy was. Explain to us what
this book is about. What is the
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meaning of redemption therapy?
Rather than running to the
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court what
should we be running to?
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The Bible teaches very clearly
that when brokenness has taken
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place we need to seek God's help
because only God can heal us and
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can cleanse us from our
defilements. Now redemption
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therapy teaches exactly what God
is teaching; that you don't go
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and ask somebody else to
fix your marriage. You ask God.
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You bring the word of God as
a guide, as your measurement for
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how you should live in life. So
redemption therapy is intended
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to use God's word wisely in
marriage. So we don't live by
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the counselor's opinion. We
don't live by what other people
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are saying to us. The Bible says
we live by every word that comes
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out of God's mouth. We spoke
earlier about sanctification.
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You know God put it
aside and he sanctified it.
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God only sanctifies things that
he can justify. So if you live
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in a marriage relationship and
your actions are not in keeping
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with God's will then you're
not being sanctified and you'll
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never see glorification because
you have to be justified, then
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sanctified then glorified.
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All right now, there's a lot
of people who understand these
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terms but let's go back for some
who are listening to us today
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who don't understand what
it means to be justified and
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and glorified. We've talked
about sanctified means to be
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set apart for a holy purpose,
a purpose that God has designed.
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What does it mean to be
justified and glorified?
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Well to be justified is
that your action in front of God
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is approved, basically. Whatever
you're doing in life, the way
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your living your life, the
way you function in life pleases
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God. Because that's your sole
function in life. You have no
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other purpose in life but to
live to please God, to make God
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look good in
every given situation.
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To bring God glory. Yes,
to bring God glory and so
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when God is pleased with
your action you are justified.
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Abraham was that type of person.
He was justified before God and
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he became a friend of God. So
we too ought to please God and
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become a friend of God and
through that process, once you
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are justified by God,
then you are sanctified.
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And we are justified by
faith as Abraham was. We are
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sanctified by faith as well. I
mean, the Bible is clear on that
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To be glorified means what?
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To be glorified is really to be
brought into the kingdom of God
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in terms of all the gifts that
God has given us in life; to be
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experiencing the joys that
Christ brings and so when he
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comes in his glory we'll all
be glorified with him and share
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in his kingdom. So is it fair
to say, since the Bible clearly
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shows that the glory of the Lord
was his character when Moses
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said show me your glory. What
happened? God came down and he
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explained his character.
Moses only got to see his back.
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He explained his character. So
to be glorified is to be changed
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by God to be conformed to
the image of his Son Jesus.
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This is what when we talk about
being glorified in the end how
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we all become just like he is.
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So the point is to reproduce the
character of Christ in your life
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That's really what we are
striving to do through our
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experiences on this earth
and certainly in our marriage.
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So if God then created us as his
children and then when we are
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born again he adopts us as
his children... The purpose of
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marriage was... many Christians
say well the purpose of marriage
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was to reproduce and fill
the earth. But God had more than
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that in mind didn't he?
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Certainly. Certainly Malachi
chapter 2 God makes it clear
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that not only to fill the earth
but he wanted Godly offspring.
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He wanted earth full of Godly
people, not of carnal-minded
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people. That's not what he
intended. So when you have a
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world full of people who are
reproducing God's character, you
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have a holy nation of people and
the Bible says that's what we
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ought to become. We are royal.
You know, when you look at
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royalty... I grew up in England
and when I see the Queen and
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Prince Charles in terms of
the way of how they conduct
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themselves, with dignity and
so on and so forth. That's how
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royalty behaves. But as a people
we seem to be living in the base
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condition of this world. We
don't behave as if we belong to
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God. We have abandoned God's
principles so we don't behave
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like royalty at all. So we're
not reproducing God's character
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in our lives. We have succumbed
to the definition of marriage in
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the world and so God
has a problem with us.
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So redemption therapy now comes
and reminds us that listen, the
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purpose for which you are born
is to glorify God. You are set
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apart for holy use. But you
have taken on the principles of
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someone else. You need to
abandon that, you need to return
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to be redeemed to your
original condition, to have a
00:12:01.46\00:12:05.15
relationship with God that
Adam had, to be restored to your
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original position.
Desmond, would you agree that
00:12:09.28\00:12:11.48
the family, when we're talking
about the purpose and the role
00:12:11.52\00:12:14.56
of marriage in society and
the family, would you agree that
00:12:14.59\00:12:18.43
this is the smallest unit of
the church and so the church is
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made up of families. We're all
a part of the body of Christ.
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Now if you come into a family
by adoption... I know I've got a
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question here if I can frame it.
If people come into marriage,
00:12:32.23\00:12:37.84
let's just make it simple, with
wrong expectations the marriage
00:12:37.88\00:12:44.30
is doomed, is it not? Yes. So
the carnal mind, the one who is
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not following the Lord, their
expectations of marriage...
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I listen to, sometimes I'll
turn on some talk shows just to
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see... because you can get
so spiritually minded you're no
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earthly good, if you don't know
what's going on in the world,
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and I'll turn something on
occasionally to watch and I'm
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amazed when I listen to people,
why they're getting married.
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Especially if you're listening
to someone who is famous.
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You know they enter in an
out of marriage so rapidly.
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What happened to change people's
expectations of marriage
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compared to what God wants?
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Well if the church was playing
the role that it was supposed
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to play, I think people's
attitude would be different.
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People come into marriage
with huge expectations and when
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they come into it and they
realize that these things are
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not working out, then they
decide that we must abandon
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this. Now the only thing that
can change a person's heart is
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Jesus Christ. You can't change a
person by beating them with your
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love. Whatever love you have
for your spouse must be used to
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improve yourself not to
beat them over the head with it.
00:14:08.26\00:14:11.88
Explain what you mean. You
said that you can't improve your
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marriage by beating
them of the head with love.
00:14:15.53\00:14:17.18
Sometimes I've seen couples come
to counseling and one wants the
00:14:17.21\00:14:22.45
counselor to fix the other one.
If only he would do that or if
00:14:22.48\00:14:26.23
only she would do that then
everything would be all right.
00:14:26.27\00:14:30.50
And it doesn't work that way.
You know, it is about working on
00:14:30.53\00:14:35.26
the individual's heart. So when
transformation takes place in
00:14:35.29\00:14:39.98
they heart they begin to
see things differently on the
00:14:40.02\00:14:43.60
outside, and that can only be
done by Jesus Christ. So it is
00:14:43.64\00:14:47.84
not the opinions, it's not how
you look, it's not how you dress
00:14:47.88\00:14:52.05
it's what takes
place internally.
00:14:52.08\00:14:54.49
So redemption therapy is about
using the word of God to counsel
00:14:54.52\00:15:00.14
people and let them know that
God said... Psalm 107:20 he sent
00:15:00.18\00:15:05.40
his word to heal us. So when
marriages are not fulfilling the
00:15:05.43\00:15:10.10
role in society that they were
intended to and if people have
00:15:10.13\00:15:14.76
wrong expectations or even
a wrong perspective of what
00:15:14.80\00:15:18.44
marriage is all about, it's
almost like their marriage is
00:15:18.47\00:15:22.64
doomed. Would you agree that
some of what Hollywood has done
00:15:22.68\00:15:27.22
to us is set up this idea that
marriage is going to be this
00:15:27.25\00:15:32.65
romantic journey. Women go
into this idea that I've met my
00:15:32.68\00:15:36.78
prince charming and everything
is going to be wonderful.
00:15:36.82\00:15:40.88
That's not realistic is it?
00:15:40.92\00:15:42.71
Well it's not because what
Hollywood has done is glorified
00:15:42.74\00:15:48.46
cohabitation. When we see this
filth coming out of Hollywood,
00:15:48.50\00:15:54.42
the TV that comes into our homes
sometimes is a pipeline of filth
00:15:54.46\00:15:59.50
that comes into our homes. So
we build up these misconceptions
00:15:59.54\00:16:03.93
and misperceptions of what
marriage is and we begin to live
00:16:03.97\00:16:07.72
as these people live. But
that's not the way God intended.
00:16:07.75\00:16:12.29
God intended his people to
be holy and to be examples.
00:16:12.33\00:16:16.79
But when you look around and
I say to people in redemption
00:16:16.83\00:16:20.48
therapy, if you look around
and you don't see sufficient
00:16:20.52\00:16:24.11
examples be the example. You be
the example. Because sometimes
00:16:24.14\00:16:29.18
we're looking and it's not there
and because everybody else is
00:16:29.22\00:16:33.36
doing what feels good, we
think that's all right, even the
00:16:33.40\00:16:37.36
church and that's not the
case. You know, if David had not
00:16:37.40\00:16:40.47
messed around with the seventh
commandment we probably would
00:16:40.51\00:16:43.55
have had Psalm 51. And
the seventh commandment is
00:16:43.58\00:16:47.66
marriage. Really
God is saying listen
00:16:47.69\00:16:48.75
David, I made you king as a
little boy. I reserved you to
00:16:48.78\00:16:54.37
take over and become king of
Israel and everything I gave you
00:16:54.41\00:16:59.12
I saved you from all the scrapes
in life. Look what you've done.
00:16:59.15\00:17:03.82
You have given occasions
for others to reproach my name.
00:17:03.86\00:17:08.73
So let me explain for some of
our listeners that the seventh
00:17:08.77\00:17:12.73
commandment is Thou shalt
not commit adultery and David as
00:17:12.77\00:17:16.84
king of Israel took Bathsheba
who was another man's wife
00:17:16.88\00:17:21.74
and Psalm 51 is his psalm of
repentance where he is saying
00:17:21.78\00:17:26.57
oh wash me, purge me with hyssop
and I will be whiter than snow.
00:17:26.61\00:17:30.58
Restore to me the joy of
your salvation then I'll teach
00:17:30.61\00:17:33.60
transgressors your ways. So this
was his psalm of deep repentance
00:17:33.64\00:17:37.56
after he recognized that
God had the finger on him.
00:17:37.60\00:17:42.36
Amen, but it shows something
else; that David was a man after
00:17:42.39\00:17:47.81
God's own heart. He was favored
by God, but God did not allow
00:17:47.84\00:17:53.20
him to get away with that
sinful act. So it shows you how
00:17:53.23\00:17:58.51
particular God is about marriage
That here is King David, a man
00:17:58.55\00:18:03.07
of God's own heart, a man who
was striving to reflect God's
00:18:03.10\00:18:07.58
character and he did wrong.
And God said as a consequence of
00:18:07.62\00:18:12.06
this the sword will never
be removed from your house.
00:18:12.10\00:18:15.51
And as we read David's story
we see how many things happened
00:18:15.54\00:18:19.31
to him, incest and murder and
all this kind of thing because
00:18:19.35\00:18:23.08
of what he had done. You
know, the way I explain that
00:18:23.11\00:18:26.68
because I've had people ask me,
Desmond, did God accept David's
00:18:26.72\00:18:32.06
repentance? Absolutely. 1 Kings
14:8, somewhere around there
00:18:32.10\00:18:37.54
said that God after David died
said to Jeroboam, You've not
00:18:37.57\00:18:42.36
been as my servant David who
did only what was right in my
00:18:42.39\00:18:47.56
eyes. Well so God accepted his
repentance and he forgave him
00:18:47.59\00:18:52.72
but sometimes we put
consequences into action in the
00:18:52.76\00:18:56.95
physical realm that cannot be
stopped after our sin. So let me
00:18:56.99\00:19:02.13
bring this back then. If we are
looking at the role of marriage
00:19:02.17\00:19:07.33
in society, it is to reflect the
glory of God, to let people know
00:19:07.37\00:19:12.50
what God's love is all
about and to bring the story of
00:19:12.53\00:19:18.16
redemption to people. What
happens to people spiritually
00:19:18.20\00:19:23.60
when they don't try to work
on their marriage and let God
00:19:23.63\00:19:28.96
fix their marriage, what happens
to them spiritually if they go
00:19:29.00\00:19:33.64
down that pathway of divorce?
00:19:33.68\00:19:36.07
Well the same thim that happened
to Adam. Satan comes along and
00:19:36.10\00:19:40.07
says, you don't really have
to do what God asked you to do.
00:19:40.11\00:19:47.10
You can do your own thing. So
Adam died spiritually and then
00:19:47.14\00:19:54.10
physically and that's what
happens to marriage. It dies
00:19:54.14\00:19:59.23
spiritually because the
spiritual element is part of
00:19:59.27\00:20:04.29
man, it's coded in your DNA,
you can't get that out. From the
00:20:04.33\00:20:08.17
very history of the morning of
creation God put that element in
00:20:08.21\00:20:12.89
you. So when you don't encourage
or build on or develop the
00:20:12.92\00:20:17.53
spiritual image you slowly
die and you're no longer able to
00:20:17.56\00:20:22.96
reflect God's character. So Adam
slowly died spiritually. Ellen
00:20:22.99\00:20:27.63
White said that the first time
Adam saw a leaf fall from the
00:20:27.67\00:20:32.26
tree that's when he understood
exactly how dangerous sin is
00:20:32.30\00:20:36.82
because he never saw a leaf fall
from a tree before. So we become
00:20:36.86\00:20:42.88
like a leper. After while the
senses are numb. You can't feel
00:20:42.91\00:20:47.70
and you become careless. You
bounce yourself against walls
00:20:47.73\00:20:52.27
and all and you're not feeling
anything. You're not being led
00:20:52.31\00:20:56.81
by the Spirit of God so
you begin to do things that
00:20:56.85\00:21:00.28
initially were repulsive to you.
That's what happens when you
00:21:00.32\00:21:04.53
die spiritually. The Holy Spirit
is no longer leading you so you
00:21:04.57\00:21:10.08
become careless in life. So
these are like leper defilement.
00:21:10.11\00:21:14.13
You notice in the Bible, there
are, I think, three or four
00:21:14.17\00:21:19.43
instances in the Bible where
leprosy was not really a disease
00:21:19.47\00:21:24.70
it was a consequence of
defilement. We have Gehazi
00:21:24.73\00:21:29.39
with greed, we have Miriam which
was speaking evil of her brother
00:21:29.42\00:21:34.32
and we have Moses himself
who had doubts about God and God
00:21:34.35\00:21:38.06
really in essence said Moses
look at your heart, put our hand
00:21:38.09\00:21:42.21
in your bosom. I think this day
God is saying to all of us in
00:21:42.25\00:21:46.77
marriage, put your hand in
your bosom and pull it out. When
00:21:46.81\00:21:51.17
Moses pulled it out it
became leprous. I think that was
00:21:51.20\00:21:55.50
defilement. You notice the Bible
didn't say Christ healed the
00:21:55.53\00:22:00.52
lepers. It says he cleansed it.
So redemption therapy is about
00:22:00.56\00:22:05.52
cleansing people's defilement
because I think some of the
00:22:05.55\00:22:09.05
conditions that we have in life
that we're going to the medical
00:22:09.09\00:22:12.12
doctor for, they are really
not diseases as such, they are
00:22:12.16\00:22:16.60
defilement. So redemption
therapy is teaching cleansing
00:22:16.63\00:22:21.04
of our defilement
which is what divorce is.
00:22:21.08\00:22:24.17
Right. So if you have a couple
who is coming to your office
00:22:24.20\00:22:28.82
for Christian counseling, let's
say it's me and I'm coming and
00:22:28.85\00:22:33.43
I'm saying it's over. You
know that straw that broke the
00:22:33.46\00:22:37.56
camel's back. You know I'm
thinking that it would be better
00:22:37.59\00:22:41.04
for me as a Christian, you know,
I cannot live with this man, I
00:22:41.08\00:22:44.49
cannot live a Christian life
with this man. I am ready to
00:22:44.53\00:22:46.95
divorce him. What are you going
to tell me? What's going to be
00:22:46.98\00:22:50.27
the effect of divorce and
how am I wrecking the role of
00:22:50.31\00:22:53.76
marriage in society, God's role?
00:22:53.80\00:22:56.09
Well not so much to tell you
but for us to identify options
00:22:56.12\00:23:02.27
as to what is the best fit for
your marriage and the best fit
00:23:02.31\00:23:08.09
is Jesus Christ. We will go
through his word, we will find
00:23:08.12\00:23:13.84
out why you feel the way you're
feeling, where you yourself may
00:23:13.87\00:23:18.61
have contributed to the way
you're feeling. I would probably
00:23:18.65\00:23:23.21
as you, I would say, Shelley
what is it that you want out of
00:23:23.25\00:23:29.10
your marriage? I would ask you
what does happiness look like to
00:23:29.14\00:23:34.96
you? Define it, happiness.
Because what is love? What does
00:23:35.00\00:23:39.73
it mean to you. Because love is
better appreciated, better seen
00:23:39.77\00:23:44.61
than defined. So sometimes
people come to counseling and
00:23:44.64\00:23:49.14
they really don't know what
it is that is happening in their
00:23:49.18\00:23:53.64
marriage. But let's
say for just a moment,
00:23:53.68\00:23:55.94
Desmond, that I come to you and
I say, okay, happiness would be
00:23:55.98\00:24:00.63
not arguing every night, not
having this man come in drunk.
00:24:00.67\00:24:05.28
Happiness would be, you know,
what I want out of my marriage
00:24:05.31\00:24:09.89
is peace and I don't get
it here. Now would you as a
00:24:09.93\00:24:15.56
counselor tell me that quit
worrying about fixing this man
00:24:15.60\00:24:20.42
get right with the Lord
spiritually myself and just what
00:24:20.46\00:24:25.21
pray and watch the Lord, I mean
watch what God can do in this
00:24:25.25\00:24:29.33
man's life. What
would you tell me.
00:24:29.37\00:24:30.81
No, no. Not at all. Again I
wouldn't tell you but we would
00:24:30.85\00:24:34.01
would work through what would
be best for both you and your
00:24:34.05\00:24:38.33
husband and praying alone won't
do it. Sometimes we are the
00:24:38.36\00:24:43.03
answer to our own prayers. We
have to quit doing some of the
00:24:43.06\00:24:47.24
things that we're doing. You
know, if you pray and you pray
00:24:47.27\00:24:50.82
and you pray it doesn't
mean that your husband will stop
00:24:50.85\00:24:54.33
drinking or will stop doing the
things that he's doing. No, he
00:24:54.36\00:24:57.99
has to take responsibility for
his own action but you help him
00:24:58.03\00:25:02.08
through the process and through
the word of God he will see how
00:25:02.12\00:25:06.14
he should walk, you
know, humbly before God and get
00:25:06.18\00:25:12.50
rid of some of the things that
he's doing. It is a repugnant
00:25:12.54\00:25:18.44
task sometimes to fix a marriage
because we tend to give our
00:25:18.47\00:25:23.08
opinions of what should be
done and what shouldn't be done
00:25:23.12\00:25:25.91
but the Bible is very, very
clear about what is permissible
00:25:25.94\00:25:31.98
and what is condemned by God.
So the whole idea of redemption
00:25:32.02\00:25:38.03
therapy is going through
identifying, because sometime we
00:25:38.06\00:25:41.68
don't even identify what
the problem is. So we come in
00:25:41.71\00:25:45.26
thinking that it's my husband
or it's my wife. We must first
00:25:45.29\00:25:48.33
identify what the problem is.
00:25:48.37\00:25:50.11
And we would agree that the
problem is always spiritual.
00:25:50.15\00:25:54.16
It is always spiritual. That's
the story. So if you connect,
00:25:54.20\00:25:59.27
or reconnect should I say, and
work towards God's program then
00:25:59.31\00:26:02.88
ultimately... It's not going
to happen overnight because some
00:26:02.91\00:26:06.48
of these things are deep-seated
and deep-rooted and they take
00:26:06.51\00:26:10.04
time. So we work through
the program, adhering to God's
00:26:10.07\00:26:13.58
principle and ultimately
you will get out of the rut.
00:26:13.61\00:26:17.04
So part of this, then, I would
suppose begins with defining
00:26:17.08\00:26:21.93
what the role of marriage is in
society and letting people have
00:26:21.96\00:26:26.47
realistic expectations and a
parameter. You have to frame it
00:26:26.51\00:26:30.98
in such a way that they
understand the parameters of
00:26:31.02\00:26:34.40
marriage. So I just think that
this is a very exciting topic
00:26:34.43\00:26:39.35
and I know that the Lord has
used you on many occasions to
00:26:39.38\00:26:44.39
let his healing flow through
his word by your direction.
00:26:44.43\00:26:49.24
I do really want you to
come back and talk about the one
00:26:49.28\00:26:53.38
thing we haven't addressed is
the role of the church in this
00:26:53.41\00:26:57.48
situation. So
will you come back?
00:26:57.52\00:27:00.00
Sure, I will do that.
That's wonderful. Desmond,
00:27:00.03\00:27:02.60
thank you so much. The
book that you've written is
00:27:02.63\00:27:05.13
Redemption Therapy: Counseling
by Inspiration by Dr. Desmond
00:27:05.17\00:27:10.72
A. L. Mattocks. You've got 26
years of experience so I guess
00:27:10.75\00:27:16.26
you know what you're
talking about here; 26 years of
00:27:16.30\00:27:19.79
experience in marriage. Praise
the Lord. Well thank you so
00:27:19.82\00:27:23.61
much for being with us. Please
tune in again next time because
00:27:23.64\00:27:27.66
we're going to be talking about
the role of the church and how
00:27:27.69\00:27:32.21
the church can reach out to
help married couples who are in
00:27:32.24\00:27:35.95
problems. And you know we
can all get in problems in our
00:27:35.99\00:27:39.61
marriage if we get to
where we're looking at it from a
00:27:39.65\00:27:43.20
selfish aspect and not from
a self-sacrificing love aspect.
00:27:43.24\00:27:46.77
May the grace of our Lord Jesus
Christ, the love of the Father
00:27:46.81\00:27:50.31
and the fellowship of the
Holy Spirit be with you always.
00:27:50.34\00:27:53.31
Thank you.
00:27:53.34\00:27:56.75