Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Desmond Mattocks
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000269
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00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:32 Issues and Answers. We've got a very interesting 00:35 program today and I love the title. The title of this program 00:39 is Redemption Therapy. Now let me read you a scripture before 00:44 I introduce our guest. The scripture is from 00:46 2 Corinthians 3:16 and I'll be reading from the Amplified 00:51 and I'm going to read it all. It says, Every scripture is 00:55 God-breathed; it is given by his inspiration and profitable for 01:00 instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for 01:05 correction of error and discipline in obedience and for 01:08 training in righteousness, in holy living, in conformity to 01:13 God's will and thought, purpose and action. I wanted to share 01:17 that scripture with you today because our very special guest 01:20 today is here for Miramar, Florida and help me welcome 01:26 Dr. Desmond Mattocks. Dr. Mattocks your Ph.D. is in 01:33 Christian counseling. That's correct. Now did you start off 01:36 going to school to get a Ph.D. at a Christian university? 01:41 No I did not. I started to attend a local university and 01:45 we had some issues in terms of their perception of what 01:50 marriage is and what counseling is and so after taking a number 01:55 of classes, I realized that this was not the place for me. So I 01:59 subsequently transferred my credits to a Christian school 02:05 where I finished my dissertation because they are very much 02:11 involved in post modern counseling from a secular 02:14 perspective. It really leaves God's word out of the whole 02:19 scenario and for me I realized where I was going and what I 02:25 wanted to do ultimately and so we just didn't see eye to eye 02:30 and we just parted company. 02:32 You know, I can identify with that because my husband was 02:36 studying for his doctorate in psychology when he quit school 02:39 and when we first married here he thought he knew all of these 02:42 things and he'd try to tell me something and I'd say, Honey 02:45 that doesn't line up with the Bible. And it took a few years 02:48 for him and now he does Christian counseling just as you 02:53 do. So you actually have a ministry called Redemption 02:58 Therapy. I love the name of your ministry. You're director and 03:01 speaker. Please define for us what redemption therapy is. 03:07 Well the objective of redemption therapy is to restore the 03:12 individual firstly to God because once you're restored to 03:17 God, to redeem yourself to God, it is easy to make relationship 03:21 with everybody else. So it's not just like secular counseling 03:25 where you just talk to the individual about being 03:29 reconciled to their spouse or husband or wife because a lot of 03:33 the problems that we have are as a consequence of our 03:37 obedience or disobedience to almighty God. So if you are 03:41 reconciled with God then being reconciled to your wife or your 03:46 husband is made easy. So redemption therapy really is the 03:52 wise use of God's word in therapy and it deals with the 03:57 issue of sin. In secular therapy sin is left like a dangling 04:03 participle and it's not dealt with. Everything is based on 04:10 feelings. But God's word, as indicated in 2 Timothy 3:16 must 04:16 be used for reproof and correction. So that's exactly 04:20 what redemption therapy is doing is reintroducing God's word in 04:24 therapy and saying there's no way that you can fix your 04:29 brokenness unless Christ is involved. To do therapy without 04:33 God's word is really to invite trouble into your life. 04:37 You know, I have friends who have been through secular 04:40 counseling and they were so much worse off when they came 04:44 out because what they were taught was this idea of 04:47 entitlement; you are entitled to this, you are entitled to 04:50 that and they were taught to actually love themselves more 04:54 than they loved anyone else and that they could not have a good 04:57 relationship unless they did love themselves more than anyone 05:01 else. You know the Bible does teach us that we are to love 05:04 our self but we are to love others as our self and truly 05:08 the Bible tells us to put others needs before ours. So they are 05:12 diametrically opposed, aren't they? 05:13 Well secular counseling doesn't even understand what love is. 05:15 I agree. Because the Bible makes it very clear that God is love. 05:29 So anything that you do that is not Godly you cannot call it 05:32 love. So we came back and really redemption therapy is a call 05:34 that is needed. It is saying, we have moved too far away from the 05:40 counsel of God. We need to get back because you cannot live 05:45 your life as you choose. You are not your own. You are bought 05:50 with a price. So the way in which you live your marriage 05:54 must be lived in a way that makes God look good. So many 05:59 people from time to time seem to think that it's a given thing 06:04 that you're going to be happy in your marriage. But that's not 06:09 the thing at all. I think it's confused logic to think that 06:14 way. But whatever the circumstances in life you must 06:19 make God look good and marriage is something where you have 06:26 troubles, you have ups and downs and so you must come to God's 06:33 word and ingest his word. Take his word in and live by it and 06:40 use the word of God as a tool as a measure and look at your own 06:46 self in front of God. The question you really need to ask 06:51 of yourself what is the condition of my heart in front 06:55 of God and the word of God tells you that. 06:58 You know, it's interesting and see if you agree with this. 07:03 I have noticed that quite often in the secular mind the first 07:08 year of marriage they often still feel that they're in this 07:11 honeymoon stage and then it seems like they've got the best 07:15 part of their marriage and then the marriage begins to go down 07:18 hill and they'll say, the honeymoon is over. Now in 07:21 contrast I've noticed with Christians quite often the first 07:24 year of their marriage is the most difficult and it's almost, 07:26 in my opinion at least, that Satan is attacking and not 07:32 wanting people to really learn how to be one as God intends 07:36 them to be one. But what I have noticed, and I know in my own 07:40 marriage I prayed so hard before I married, Lord make me a 07:44 scriptural wife. There were so many problems that we avoided 07:48 in our relationship that first year because I learned to keep 07:51 my mouth shut and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. 07:54 But the closer J.D. and I have gotten to the word of God, the 07:59 more that our relationship developed. The more we fell in 08:03 love with God, the better our marriage was. 08:06 Well the first thing to know is that Satan doesn't have a family 08:11 (ooh that's a good point) and he cannot reproduce himself, so 08:16 everything that God puts together, he wants to break 08:19 up and so he attacks God's people. But you cannot overcome 08:25 the troubles in your life unless you're living according to the 08:30 will of God according to his word. So it's very, very 08:33 important that God's word is our guide. 08:36 So that is the objective of the redemption therapy is to bring 08:42 people back into relationship with God, look at how the Bible 08:47 says to overcome the sin problem and then they can learn to, with 08:53 a self-sacrificing love, love one another. 08:56 Love one another. You see secular counseling teaches that 09:00 there is no ultimate reality. You know, everything is relative 09:05 There is no truth. Reality is what you perceive it to be and 09:10 that's okay. Do whatever feels good. If you're not happy in 09:15 your marriage then you walk out. Then comes redemption therapy 09:20 and says no, not so. That's not God's way. God is saying that 09:26 marriage is not a lease agreement. It is a covenant 09:30 experience. It's a covenant with God and with your spouse. 09:36 You just don't walk out. So whenever things go wrong and 09:41 even some of the marriages that have arrived pronounced dead in 09:47 the therapist office in secular counseling can be revived by 09:53 redemption therapy. You know, I read a book one time 09:57 and I do not remember the title of it, Desmond, but it was 10:01 written by a medical doctor, both he and his wife were 10:05 doctors, and they had fallen, if this is a correct way to say it, 10:10 they had fallen out of love with one another. There was an 10:14 animosity between the two of them. This man was beginning to 10:18 grow in a Christian relationship and didn't know what to do 10:21 because his wife was just hateful toward him and as he 10:25 sought the Lord the Lord was teaching him how to love her 10:28 with an agape love, that love of unconditional acceptance with a 10:33 phileo love, with all of these loves and the more he tried to 10:36 love her the way the Lord showed him to love her the more 10:40 she resisted him. But the beauty of the book was it took 10:44 two years of him loving her the way that God wanted him to and 10:49 she then began to grow in love for him and they started doing 10:53 counseling together. But I want to back up for just a second 10:57 because it just occurred to me you used a term that some of our 11:02 viewers may not be familiar with. You said that marriage is 11:06 not a lease agreement but it is a covenant. Please explain to 11:11 our viewers what a covenant is. 11:15 Most people today treat their lives or their marriage like a 11:20 contract. A contract has two elements: Offer and acceptance. 11:27 If one of those two elements is not in existence then the 11:33 the contract is made void. So they treat their lives and their 11:36 marriages that way. You are not doing so and so, so I'm going to 11:39 get out of this and it becomes a contract. With God it is a 11:45 covenant. It's never any out, it doesn't matter what is going 11:50 on. You will continue to love, not because you feel like loving 11:55 but because it's a principle, it is the right thing to do. 12:00 The Bible teaches that we certainly as husbands must love 12:04 our wives as Christ loves the church. Now how did Christ love 12:09 the church? He was willing to give his life. It was a 12:14 commitment. He gave his life for the church. So we must 12:19 that Christ established in Genesis 2:24 that for this cause 12:24 a man must leave everyone, mother, father, everybody and 12:29 cleave. If you don't leave not only geographically but 12:33 psychologically, mentally, you can't cleave at all and I think 12:37 that's one of the problems that we're having. So a covenant is 12:41 not a lease where you can get out, it's not a car deal, and 12:45 sometimes we spend more time choosing our cars than we do 12:49 with a husband or wife. So it is forever. It must only terminate 12:53 at the point of death says the Bible and God made it also clear 12:59 in Malachi 2:16 that he doesn't like putting away. You know, we 13:03 must stay the course. He says I have a controversy with such 13:09 people who do these things. So again redemption therapy comes 13:13 to the aid of those who are anguished and who are suffering 13:17 and who are wondering what to do It is strange in today's society 13:24 in the sense that in Noah's time there was an ark, in Lot's time 13:30 there was a Zoar to run to and married people are today 13:33 wondering well where is the place of safety. Well the place 13:38 of safety is redemption therapy that brings you back to God 13:42 and back to your fellowman. 13:44 So redemption therapy is to bring you as Colossians 3:3 to 13:49 that realization that your real life is hidden with Christ in 13:53 God, that you're dead to self. Let me read Malachi 2:16 and I 13:58 particularly like the way the Amplified has expounded on this. 14:04 It says, this is the Lord speaking, and he says, For the 14:07 Lord, the God of Israel, says I hate divorce and marital 14:11 separation in him who covers his wife with violence. Therefore, 14:16 keep watch upon your spirit that it may be controlled by my 14:22 spirit that you may not deal treacherously and faithlessly 14:27 with your marriage mate. So God really never intended, I mean 14:33 when he said that they were to, in Genesis 2:24, become one, to 14:38 cleave together and be one, he never really intended... We do 14:43 know that later on it was added that for marital unfaithfulness 14:48 there are a few things here that God talks about why he allowed 14:53 divorce but he doesn't like it. It's an apostasy, if you will. 14:59 He never introduced divorce. He regulates it and he gives us a 15:04 clear example in the book of Hosea what a marriage ought to 15:10 be. We see that where Gomer clearly had caviled at the 7th 15:16 commandment and had left home. Hosea the priest thought he had 15:22 good grounds for divorce. But God told him go and purchase 15:27 your wife again. And he said, I bought her for 15 shekels of 15:31 silver. So God's intent that all marriages should run their 15:36 course and not be cut short. You know sometimes I think we 15:42 cut our reign of greatness short Sometimes we're destined to be 15:46 great people through our marriages but something happens 15:49 and we cut it short. The things we crave about the great men of 15:56 the Bible are in us. Everything that we crave for in Daniel and 16:02 Job and David and all of them is in us. It's on the anvil of our 16:08 circumstances that we become great. So God is shaping us in 16:14 everything that happens in life. Have you ever seen a 16:20 blacksmith at work with his sledge hammer trying to shape a 16:25 piece of metal and it slides. You know, we are like that. 16:29 Have you ever wondered why Christ died the way he did with 16:33 arms outstretched in a posture of love on the cross? The secret 16:39 of successful Christian living really is to when you hear those 16:44 screams of crucified self ignore them as he did. Too often in 16:49 marriage we try to get off the cross. When we're going through 16:54 things we say well we must get out of this and we're more prone 16:58 to call the attorney than we are to call the pastor or the elder 17:03 or go to the family altar for prayer. Redemption therapy 17:06 brings you back and says remember from whence you came, 17:10 the purpose for which you were created is to make God look good 17:14 in every given situation. Boy, you know what you were 17:20 talking about how it's like being on the anvil. I love what 17:24 James says when he says in James 1:2: Count it pure joy 17:29 when these things come because these are the trials in James 17:33 chapter 1. James shows us that trials, we shouldn't resent them 17:38 we should appreciate them because they are deepening our 17:41 character. And he goes on to say that these trials help us to 17:45 prove our faith, they bring out endurance and steadfastness 17:50 and patience and then this will have its full play and do a 17:54 thorough work in perfecting us. This is something that when 17:58 we're going through a trial sometimes it's so difficult to 18:01 remember that Jesus sees something precious in you and 18:05 why he allows the trial; he's not causing the trial but why he 18:09 allows it is that he can polish that potential that you're 18:13 talking about. So who is redemption therapy for? 18:18 Who needs this redemption therapy? 18:20 Well all of us who are married need it. But even those more so 18:27 who are experiencing problems with their marriage. All of us 18:33 are living in a fallen world as a consequence of what our first 18:38 parents did. So we need to be redeemed. 18:41 By "our first parents" you're talking about Adam and Eve. 18:44 Right. So the only way we can be redeemed according to Acts 4:12 18:49 is through Christ Jesus. He is the only person. So it is really 18:54 confused logic to do therapy without the word of God and as I 18:59 indicated earlier that... Take for example Job. Job had become 19:03 a wager between God and Satan and didn't know it and sometimes 19:08 we become wagers between God and Satan in our marriages. 19:12 God might well be saying have you see Tom? There's none like 19:17 him. Have you seen Mary? There's none like her. And Satan is 19:21 trying to tug at you through your marriage, but because we're 19:25 not connected to Jesus Christ, unlike Job, we cannot see what 19:30 is happening. I like what Job's wife asked him. Doest thou still 19:36 retain thy integrity - Job 2:9. And I think that's exactly what 19:41 marriage is about. In spite of what you're going through you 19:46 must retain your integrity. When you're stripped and nothing is 19:51 left the question is what kind of a person are you when no one 19:55 is looking. That's good because there's so 19:58 many times, and you hear this often throughout all 20:02 denominations, all churches, where you hear people say... 20:07 Actually many years ago I had called, I was trying to get in 20:12 touch with a young man and his mother answered the phone and 20:16 she answered the phone the phone and she said Hello, and I told 20:19 this was Shelley Quinn and she said Oooh and she was just being 20:23 so lovely. Well I was trying to counsel with this young man and 20:27 he told me then later she was arguing so badly and being so 20:32 mean spirited until you called. He said, I see my mother and my 20:37 father at church acting so righteous and so polished and 20:42 he said and then they argue all the way to church, they 20:45 argue all the way home and he said they're at each other's 20:49 throat all the time and he was about to reject God because of 20:54 the hypocrisy in his own home. So what you're saying is that 20:58 and what I'm going to say right here is that I know that any 21:02 time that I have a problem the root is a spiritual problem. 21:06 Amen, amen. In fact, Martin Luther, the great reformer, said 21:10 that. That all our problems are spiritual. They manifest 21:14 themselves in different ways but the source is because we have 21:18 moved away. There is no connection. And the only visible 21:22 way we can tell whether a person is abiding in Christ is through 21:27 the fruits of the Spirit; that's the only way. 21:30 Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness 21:35 self-control and I'm leaving one out but yes. 21:38 What's the worst case that has come to you for counseling? 21:42 Have you ever felt like someone came in for redemption 21:46 counseling and you thought praying the leading of the Holy 21:50 Spirit thought, Lord, this one looks impossible? 21:53 As I said earlier, there are some that come dead on arrival 21:58 at the therapist's office. Spiritually dead because like 22:04 Adam they're no longer able to reflect the Father's character. 22:09 Their words are mean. Their attitude is indifferent to each 22:14 other. But with Jesus Christ, with the word of God you begin 22:20 to breathe a life into them. You know, I always make reference to 22:26 the centurion because he understood something that I 22:31 don't think a lot of us understand. He said you don't 22:35 even have to come, Lord Jesus. Just speak the word and when 22:44 we speak the word in therapy, we are breathing life into 22:48 people and Christ himself remarked, I have not seen such 22:51 faith in all Israel. So, you know, when a Christian counselor 22:58 takes the word of God and uses it wisely it breathes life. 23:04 And I hear someone say can these bones live? Surely God you know. 23:11 If we use God's word in therapy there is no case at all that 23:17 cannot be revived and be redeemed to God and to a husband 23:24 or a wife. You are talking my language, 23:26 Desmond. Hebrews 4:12 the Bible says that the word of God is 23:32 alive and active. And Isaiah 55 verse 11 says it will not, if we 23:38 return his word to him it will not come back void because 23:41 Jeremiah 1:12 says he watches over his word to perform it. 23:46 So there is power in the word of God. I also always love to 23:51 put in Proverbs 18:21- The power of life and death is in 23:55 our tongue. So what you just said is when you speak the word 24:00 of God into someone's life you are speaking new life into them. 24:04 Because God's word is self- executing and the centurion 24:08 understood that. Many counselors today don't understand. 24:12 So you've seen the Lord resurrect... 24:16 Sure, dead marriages and make them alive. 24:21 Praise God! Now how long have you been married? 24:24 I've been married for 26 years. 24:26 Now Desmond were you a Christian before you were married or did 24:30 you become a Christian afterward? 24:31 No, I was not a Christian when I got married. I got married in 24:37 1981 and two years later I became a Christian and embraced 24:43 Christ. Now how long have you been 24:46 married, Desmond. I've been married for 26 years. 24:48 Twenty-six years. Now the first two years were not and then the 24:52 last 24 you have been, not a Christian I should say and the 24:57 last 24 you have been. Have you noticed a great difference when 25:01 you did become the redeemed of the Lord and as you grew in 25:05 grace in Jesus Christ has it made a great impact on your 25:09 marriage. Sure. Not only did I notice but 25:11 others around me noticed. My wife noticed, my children notice 25:17 I began to see my wife as a gift from God and to be nourished and 25:23 cherished beyond the tenants of my own feelings and I am 25:27 thankful to God for that. I've not always seen her that way 25:31 because I had a misconception of what marriage was but having 25:35 studied the word of God and understanding the word of God 25:39 made me a better person in marriage. Does that mean it's 25:43 all been a bed of roses? No not at all. We've had our ups and 25:48 downs but using the word of God as our measure, as our guide, we 25:52 have been able to adhere to what God asks us to do. 25:58 Amen, amen. It's so much more beautiful when Jesus is the 26:04 center of your marriage. The Bible tells us that a three-cord 26:09 or three, how does that say that? A three part cord cannot 26:14 easily be broken. So when Christ is the foundation for your 26:18 marriage it changes your outlook. 26:20 What happens inside makes you see things different on the 26:25 outside, that God is in your life. 26:27 You know, Desmond, I am so glad that you are going to be coming 26:31 back and we will be having Dr. Mattocks back. We're going 26:36 to be talking about the role of marriage in society today and 26:40 then we're going to be talking about the role of church in 26:44 redeeming and helping to redeem married couples. How long have 26:48 you been a Christian counselor? 26:50 Since 1984. I became a social worker and from there on I began 26:56 to look at it from a different perspective and it's been about 27:02 seven years. Seven years and I'm sure it's 27:05 been very rewarding. Well thank you so much. We really do 27:08 appreciate you coming all the way from Miramar and I 27:13 understand your daughter came up with you. 27:15 Yes, but she had to go back today. 27:17 Well I hope that you got to have the full tour of 3ABN. 27:21 It was a good experience. 27:23 Praise the Lord. Thank you so much for being here. I hope that 27:27 you will remember always that Jesus Christ paid a price for 27:32 you with his own special blood. That's how much he loves you and 27:37 that's how much your worth to the Father that he would send 27:40 how own son. You are the redeemed of the Lord if you've 27:43 accepted Christ as your Savior. Now may the grace of our Lord 27:47 Jesus Christ, the love of the Father and the fellowship 27:50 of the Holy Spirit be with you today and throughout the 27:54 rest of your life. |
Revised 2014-12-17