Hello, I'm Shelley
Quinn and welcome again to
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Issues and Answers.
We've got a very interesting
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program today and I love the
title. The title of this program
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is Redemption Therapy. Now let
me read you a scripture before
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I introduce our
guest. The scripture is from
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2 Corinthians 3:16 and I'll
be reading from the Amplified
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and I'm going to read it
all. It says, Every scripture is
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God-breathed; it is given by his
inspiration and profitable for
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instruction, for reproof
and conviction of sin, for
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correction of error and
discipline in obedience and for
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training in righteousness,
in holy living, in conformity to
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God's will and thought, purpose
and action. I wanted to share
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that scripture with you today
because our very special guest
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today is here for Miramar,
Florida and help me welcome
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Dr. Desmond Mattocks.
Dr. Mattocks your Ph.D. is in
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Christian counseling. That's
correct. Now did you start off
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going to school to get a
Ph.D. at a Christian university?
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No I did not. I started to
attend a local university and
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we had some issues in terms
of their perception of what
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marriage is and what counseling
is and so after taking a number
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of classes, I realized that this
was not the place for me. So I
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subsequently transferred my
credits to a Christian school
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where I finished my dissertation
because they are very much
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involved in post modern
counseling from a secular
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perspective. It really leaves
God's word out of the whole
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scenario and for me I realized
where I was going and what I
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wanted to do ultimately and
so we just didn't see eye to eye
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and we just parted company.
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You know, I can identify
with that because my husband was
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studying for his doctorate in
psychology when he quit school
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and when we first married here
he thought he knew all of these
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things and he'd try to tell
me something and I'd say, Honey
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that doesn't line up with the
Bible. And it took a few years
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for him and now he does
Christian counseling just as you
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do. So you actually have
a ministry called Redemption
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Therapy. I love the name of your
ministry. You're director and
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speaker. Please define for
us what redemption therapy is.
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Well the objective of redemption
therapy is to restore the
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individual firstly to God
because once you're restored to
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God, to redeem yourself to God,
it is easy to make relationship
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with everybody else. So it's
not just like secular counseling
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where you just talk to
the individual about being
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reconciled to their spouse or
husband or wife because a lot of
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the problems that we have
are as a consequence of our
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obedience or disobedience
to almighty God. So if you are
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reconciled with God then being
reconciled to your wife or your
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husband is made easy. So
redemption therapy really is the
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wise use of God's word in
therapy and it deals with the
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issue of sin. In secular therapy
sin is left like a dangling
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participle and it's not dealt
with. Everything is based on
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feelings. But God's word, as
indicated in 2 Timothy 3:16 must
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be used for reproof and
correction. So that's exactly
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what redemption therapy is doing
is reintroducing God's word in
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therapy and saying there's
no way that you can fix your
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brokenness unless Christ is
involved. To do therapy without
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God's word is really to
invite trouble into your life.
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You know, I have friends
who have been through secular
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counseling and they were so
much worse off when they came
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out because what they
were taught was this idea of
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entitlement; you are entitled
to this, you are entitled to
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that and they were taught to
actually love themselves more
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than they loved anyone else and
that they could not have a good
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relationship unless they did
love themselves more than anyone
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else. You know the Bible does
teach us that we are to love
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our self but we are to love
others as our self and truly
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the Bible tells us to put others
needs before ours. So they are
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diametrically
opposed, aren't they?
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Well secular counseling doesn't
even understand what love is.
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I agree. Because the Bible makes
it very clear that God is love.
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So anything that you do that
is not Godly you cannot call it
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love. So we came back and really
redemption therapy is a call
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that is needed. It is saying, we
have moved too far away from the
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counsel of God. We need to
get back because you cannot live
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your life as you choose. You
are not your own. You are bought
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with a price. So the way in
which you live your marriage
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must be lived in a way that
makes God look good. So many
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people from time to time seem
to think that it's a given thing
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that you're going to be happy
in your marriage. But that's not
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the thing at all. I think it's
confused logic to think that
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way. But whatever the
circumstances in life you must
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make God look good and marriage
is something where you have
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troubles, you have ups and downs
and so you must come to God's
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word and ingest his word. Take
his word in and live by it and
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use the word of God as a tool as
a measure and look at your own
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self in front of God. The
question you really need to ask
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of yourself what is the
condition of my heart in front
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of God and the word
of God tells you that.
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You know, it's interesting
and see if you agree with this.
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I have noticed that quite often
in the secular mind the first
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year of marriage they often
still feel that they're in this
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honeymoon stage and then it
seems like they've got the best
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part of their marriage and then
the marriage begins to go down
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hill and they'll say,
the honeymoon is over. Now in
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contrast I've noticed with
Christians quite often the first
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year of their marriage is the
most difficult and it's almost,
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in my opinion at least,
that Satan is attacking and not
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wanting people to really learn
how to be one as God intends
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them to be one. But what I have
noticed, and I know in my own
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marriage I prayed so hard
before I married, Lord make me a
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scriptural wife. There were
so many problems that we avoided
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in our relationship that first
year because I learned to keep
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my mouth shut and follow
the leading of the Holy Spirit.
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But the closer J.D. and I have
gotten to the word of God, the
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more that our relationship
developed. The more we fell in
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love with God, the
better our marriage was.
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Well the first thing to know is
that Satan doesn't have a family
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(ooh that's a good point) and
he cannot reproduce himself, so
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everything that God puts
together, he wants to break
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up and so he attacks God's
people. But you cannot overcome
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the troubles in your life unless
you're living according to the
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will of God according to
his word. So it's very, very
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important that
God's word is our guide.
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So that is the objective of the
redemption therapy is to bring
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people back into relationship
with God, look at how the Bible
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says to overcome the sin problem
and then they can learn to, with
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a self-sacrificing
love, love one another.
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Love one another. You see
secular counseling teaches that
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there is no ultimate reality.
You know, everything is relative
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There is no truth. Reality is
what you perceive it to be and
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that's okay. Do whatever feels
good. If you're not happy in
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your marriage then you walk out.
Then comes redemption therapy
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and says no, not so. That's not
God's way. God is saying that
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marriage is not a lease
agreement. It is a covenant
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experience. It's a covenant
with God and with your spouse.
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You just don't walk out. So
whenever things go wrong and
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even some of the marriages that
have arrived pronounced dead in
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the therapist office in secular
counseling can be revived by
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redemption therapy. You
know, I read a book one time
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and I do not remember the
title of it, Desmond, but it was
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written by a medical doctor,
both he and his wife were
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doctors, and they had fallen, if
this is a correct way to say it,
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they had fallen out of love
with one another. There was an
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animosity between the two of
them. This man was beginning to
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grow in a Christian relationship
and didn't know what to do
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because his wife was just
hateful toward him and as he
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sought the Lord the Lord
was teaching him how to love her
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with an agape love, that love of
unconditional acceptance with a
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phileo love, with all of these
loves and the more he tried to
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love her the way the Lord
showed him to love her the more
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she resisted him. But the
beauty of the book was it took
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two years of him loving her the
way that God wanted him to and
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she then began to grow in love
for him and they started doing
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counseling together. But I want
to back up for just a second
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because it just occurred to me
you used a term that some of our
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viewers may not be familiar
with. You said that marriage is
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not a lease agreement but it
is a covenant. Please explain to
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our viewers what a covenant is.
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Most people today treat their
lives or their marriage like a
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contract. A contract has two
elements: Offer and acceptance.
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If one of those two elements
is not in existence then the
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the contract is made void. So
they treat their lives and their
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marriages that way. You are not
doing so and so, so I'm going to
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get out of this and it becomes
a contract. With God it is a
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covenant. It's never any out,
it doesn't matter what is going
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on. You will continue to love,
not because you feel like loving
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but because it's a principle,
it is the right thing to do.
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The Bible teaches that we
certainly as husbands must love
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our wives as Christ loves the
church. Now how did Christ love
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the church? He was willing
to give his life. It was a
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commitment. He gave his
life for the church. So we must
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that Christ established in
Genesis 2:24 that for this cause
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a man must leave everyone,
mother, father, everybody and
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cleave. If you don't leave
not only geographically but
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psychologically, mentally, you
can't cleave at all and I think
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that's one of the problems that
we're having. So a covenant is
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not a lease where you can get
out, it's not a car deal, and
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sometimes we spend more time
choosing our cars than we do
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with a husband or wife. So it is
forever. It must only terminate
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at the point of death says the
Bible and God made it also clear
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in Malachi 2:16 that he doesn't
like putting away. You know, we
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must stay the course. He says
I have a controversy with such
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people who do these things. So
again redemption therapy comes
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to the aid of those who are
anguished and who are suffering
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and who are wondering what to do
It is strange in today's society
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in the sense that in Noah's time
there was an ark, in Lot's time
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there was a Zoar to run to
and married people are today
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wondering well where is the
place of safety. Well the place
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of safety is redemption therapy
that brings you back to God
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and back to your fellowman.
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So redemption therapy is to
bring you as Colossians 3:3 to
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that realization that your real
life is hidden with Christ in
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God, that you're dead to self.
Let me read Malachi 2:16 and I
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particularly like the way the
Amplified has expounded on this.
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It says, this is the Lord
speaking, and he says, For the
00:14:04.10\00:14:07.88
Lord, the God of Israel,
says I hate divorce and marital
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separation in him who covers his
wife with violence. Therefore,
00:14:11.67\00:14:16.44
keep watch upon your spirit
that it may be controlled by my
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spirit that you may not deal
treacherously and faithlessly
00:14:22.02\00:14:27.41
with your marriage mate. So God
really never intended, I mean
00:14:27.44\00:14:33.33
when he said that they were to,
in Genesis 2:24, become one, to
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cleave together and be one, he
never really intended... We do
00:14:38.50\00:14:43.24
know that later on it was added
that for marital unfaithfulness
00:14:43.27\00:14:48.27
there are a few things here that
God talks about why he allowed
00:14:48.31\00:14:53.37
divorce but he doesn't like it.
It's an apostasy, if you will.
00:14:53.41\00:14:58.99
He never introduced divorce. He
regulates it and he gives us a
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clear example in the book of
Hosea what a marriage ought to
00:15:04.43\00:15:10.43
be. We see that where Gomer
clearly had caviled at the 7th
00:15:10.46\00:15:16.95
commandment and had left home.
Hosea the priest thought he had
00:15:16.98\00:15:22.52
good grounds for divorce.
But God told him go and purchase
00:15:22.56\00:15:27.04
your wife again. And he said,
I bought her for 15 shekels of
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silver. So God's intent that
all marriages should run their
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course and not be cut short.
You know sometimes I think we
00:15:36.95\00:15:42.32
cut our reign of greatness short
Sometimes we're destined to be
00:15:42.36\00:15:46.58
great people through our
marriages but something happens
00:15:46.61\00:15:49.93
and we cut it short. The things
we crave about the great men of
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the Bible are in us. Everything
that we crave for in Daniel and
00:15:56.27\00:16:02.14
Job and David and all of them is
in us. It's on the anvil of our
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circumstances that we become
great. So God is shaping us in
00:16:08.04\00:16:14.17
everything that happens
in life. Have you ever seen a
00:16:14.20\00:16:20.59
blacksmith at work with his
sledge hammer trying to shape a
00:16:20.63\00:16:25.23
piece of metal and it slides.
You know, we are like that.
00:16:25.27\00:16:29.34
Have you ever wondered why
Christ died the way he did with
00:16:29.37\00:16:33.37
arms outstretched in a posture
of love on the cross? The secret
00:16:33.41\00:16:39.27
of successful Christian living
really is to when you hear those
00:16:39.31\00:16:44.87
screams of crucified self ignore
them as he did. Too often in
00:16:44.90\00:16:49.84
marriage we try to get off the
cross. When we're going through
00:16:49.88\00:16:54.35
things we say well we must get
out of this and we're more prone
00:16:54.38\00:16:58.70
to call the attorney than we are
to call the pastor or the elder
00:16:58.74\00:17:03.03
or go to the family altar
for prayer. Redemption therapy
00:17:03.06\00:17:06.61
brings you back and says
remember from whence you came,
00:17:06.64\00:17:10.12
the purpose for which you were
created is to make God look good
00:17:10.15\00:17:14.86
in every given situation.
Boy, you know what you were
00:17:14.90\00:17:20.31
talking about how it's like
being on the anvil. I love what
00:17:20.34\00:17:24.79
James says when he says in
James 1:2: Count it pure joy
00:17:24.83\00:17:29.21
when these things come because
these are the trials in James
00:17:29.25\00:17:33.83
chapter 1. James shows us that
trials, we shouldn't resent them
00:17:33.86\00:17:38.41
we should appreciate them
because they are deepening our
00:17:38.44\00:17:41.19
character. And he goes on to
say that these trials help us to
00:17:41.22\00:17:45.91
prove our faith, they bring
out endurance and steadfastness
00:17:45.94\00:17:50.14
and patience and then this
will have its full play and do a
00:17:50.17\00:17:54.57
thorough work in perfecting
us. This is something that when
00:17:54.61\00:17:58.11
we're going through a trial
sometimes it's so difficult to
00:17:58.14\00:18:01.78
remember that Jesus sees
something precious in you and
00:18:01.81\00:18:05.38
why he allows the trial; he's
not causing the trial but why he
00:18:05.42\00:18:09.32
allows it is that he can polish
that potential that you're
00:18:09.36\00:18:13.23
talking about. So who
is redemption therapy for?
00:18:13.26\00:18:18.56
Who needs this
redemption therapy?
00:18:18.59\00:18:20.50
Well all of us who are married
need it. But even those more so
00:18:20.53\00:18:27.85
who are experiencing problems
with their marriage. All of us
00:18:27.88\00:18:33.32
are living in a fallen world as
a consequence of what our first
00:18:33.36\00:18:38.76
parents did. So we
need to be redeemed.
00:18:38.80\00:18:41.76
By "our first parents" you're
talking about Adam and Eve.
00:18:41.79\00:18:44.57
Right. So the only way we can be
redeemed according to Acts 4:12
00:18:44.61\00:18:49.14
is through Christ Jesus. He is
the only person. So it is really
00:18:49.18\00:18:54.18
confused logic to do therapy
without the word of God and as I
00:18:54.21\00:18:59.29
indicated earlier that... Take
for example Job. Job had become
00:18:59.33\00:19:03.84
a wager between God and Satan
and didn't know it and sometimes
00:19:03.88\00:19:08.36
we become wagers between
God and Satan in our marriages.
00:19:08.39\00:19:12.07
God might well be saying have
you see Tom? There's none like
00:19:12.11\00:19:17.01
him. Have you seen Mary? There's
none like her. And Satan is
00:19:17.05\00:19:21.23
trying to tug at you through
your marriage, but because we're
00:19:21.27\00:19:25.74
not connected to Jesus Christ,
unlike Job, we cannot see what
00:19:25.78\00:19:30.89
is happening. I like what Job's
wife asked him. Doest thou still
00:19:30.93\00:19:36.88
retain thy integrity - Job 2:9.
And I think that's exactly what
00:19:36.92\00:19:41.63
marriage is about. In spite
of what you're going through you
00:19:41.67\00:19:46.82
must retain your integrity. When
you're stripped and nothing is
00:19:46.85\00:19:51.23
left the question is what kind
of a person are you when no one
00:19:51.27\00:19:55.61
is looking. That's
good because there's so
00:19:55.65\00:19:58.90
many times, and you hear
this often throughout all
00:19:58.94\00:20:02.37
denominations, all churches,
where you hear people say...
00:20:02.40\00:20:07.32
Actually many years ago I had
called, I was trying to get in
00:20:07.35\00:20:12.54
touch with a young man and his
mother answered the phone and
00:20:12.57\00:20:16.63
she answered the phone the phone
and she said Hello, and I told
00:20:16.66\00:20:19.76
this was Shelley Quinn and she
said Oooh and she was just being
00:20:19.80\00:20:23.44
so lovely. Well I was trying to
counsel with this young man and
00:20:23.47\00:20:27.85
he told me then later she was
arguing so badly and being so
00:20:27.88\00:20:32.57
mean spirited until you called.
He said, I see my mother and my
00:20:32.61\00:20:37.26
father at church acting so
righteous and so polished and
00:20:37.30\00:20:42.12
he said and then they argue
all the way to church, they
00:20:42.15\00:20:45.66
argue all the way home and
he said they're at each other's
00:20:45.69\00:20:49.77
throat all the time and he was
about to reject God because of
00:20:49.80\00:20:54.32
the hypocrisy in his own home.
So what you're saying is that
00:20:54.36\00:20:58.62
and what I'm going to say right
here is that I know that any
00:20:58.66\00:21:02.55
time that I have a problem
the root is a spiritual problem.
00:21:02.59\00:21:06.86
Amen, amen. In fact, Martin
Luther, the great reformer, said
00:21:06.90\00:21:10.91
that. That all our problems
are spiritual. They manifest
00:21:10.95\00:21:14.89
themselves in different ways but
the source is because we have
00:21:14.93\00:21:18.69
moved away. There is no
connection. And the only visible
00:21:18.73\00:21:22.58
way we can tell whether a person
is abiding in Christ is through
00:21:22.61\00:21:27.71
the fruits of the
Spirit; that's the only way.
00:21:27.74\00:21:30.44
Love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness
00:21:30.48\00:21:35.56
self-control and I'm
leaving one out but yes.
00:21:35.59\00:21:38.67
What's the worst case that
has come to you for counseling?
00:21:38.71\00:21:42.91
Have you ever felt like
someone came in for redemption
00:21:42.94\00:21:46.86
counseling and you thought
praying the leading of the Holy
00:21:46.89\00:21:50.77
Spirit thought, Lord,
this one looks impossible?
00:21:50.81\00:21:52.98
As I said earlier, there are
some that come dead on arrival
00:21:53.01\00:21:58.81
at the therapist's office.
Spiritually dead because like
00:21:58.85\00:22:04.57
Adam they're no longer able to
reflect the Father's character.
00:22:04.61\00:22:09.44
Their words are mean. Their
attitude is indifferent to each
00:22:09.47\00:22:14.77
other. But with Jesus Christ,
with the word of God you begin
00:22:14.81\00:22:20.04
to breathe a life into them. You
know, I always make reference to
00:22:20.08\00:22:26.46
the centurion because he
understood something that I
00:22:26.49\00:22:31.08
don't think a lot of us
understand. He said you don't
00:22:31.12\00:22:35.39
even have to come, Lord Jesus.
Just speak the word and when
00:22:35.43\00:22:44.15
we speak the word in therapy,
we are breathing life into
00:22:44.18\00:22:48.07
people and Christ himself
remarked, I have not seen such
00:22:48.11\00:22:51.93
faith in all Israel. So, you
know, when a Christian counselor
00:22:51.96\00:22:58.07
takes the word of God and
uses it wisely it breathes life.
00:22:58.10\00:23:04.13
And I hear someone say can these
bones live? Surely God you know.
00:23:04.17\00:23:11.53
If we use God's word in therapy
there is no case at all that
00:23:11.56\00:23:17.77
cannot be revived and be
redeemed to God and to a husband
00:23:17.81\00:23:23.99
or a wife. You are
talking my language,
00:23:24.02\00:23:26.46
Desmond. Hebrews 4:12 the Bible
says that the word of God is
00:23:26.50\00:23:32.29
alive and active. And Isaiah 55
verse 11 says it will not, if we
00:23:32.33\00:23:38.09
return his word to him it
will not come back void because
00:23:38.13\00:23:41.71
Jeremiah 1:12 says he watches
over his word to perform it.
00:23:41.74\00:23:46.84
So there is power in the word
of God. I also always love to
00:23:46.87\00:23:51.19
put in Proverbs 18:21- The
power of life and death is in
00:23:51.23\00:23:55.08
our tongue. So what you just
said is when you speak the word
00:23:55.12\00:24:00.01
of God into someone's life you
are speaking new life into them.
00:24:00.04\00:24:04.90
Because God's word is self-
executing and the centurion
00:24:04.93\00:24:08.77
understood that. Many counselors
today don't understand.
00:24:08.81\00:24:12.61
So you've seen
the Lord resurrect...
00:24:12.64\00:24:16.58
Sure, dead
marriages and make them alive.
00:24:16.62\00:24:21.60
Praise God! Now how
long have you been married?
00:24:21.63\00:24:24.70
I've been married for 26 years.
00:24:24.73\00:24:26.63
Now Desmond were you a Christian
before you were married or did
00:24:26.67\00:24:30.32
you become a
Christian afterward?
00:24:30.36\00:24:31.79
No, I was not a Christian when
I got married. I got married in
00:24:31.83\00:24:37.61
1981 and two years later I
became a Christian and embraced
00:24:37.64\00:24:43.39
Christ. Now how
long have you been
00:24:43.42\00:24:46.02
married, Desmond. I've
been married for 26 years.
00:24:46.06\00:24:48.91
Twenty-six years. Now the first
two years were not and then the
00:24:48.94\00:24:52.91
last 24 you have been, not a
Christian I should say and the
00:24:52.95\00:24:57.01
last 24 you have been. Have you
noticed a great difference when
00:24:57.05\00:25:01.08
you did become the redeemed
of the Lord and as you grew in
00:25:01.11\00:25:05.37
grace in Jesus Christ has
it made a great impact on your
00:25:05.40\00:25:09.63
marriage. Sure. Not
only did I notice but
00:25:09.66\00:25:11.95
others around me noticed. My
wife noticed, my children notice
00:25:11.99\00:25:17.80
I began to see my wife as a gift
from God and to be nourished and
00:25:17.84\00:25:23.62
cherished beyond the tenants
of my own feelings and I am
00:25:23.65\00:25:27.46
thankful to God for that. I've
not always seen her that way
00:25:27.50\00:25:31.56
because I had a misconception
of what marriage was but having
00:25:31.59\00:25:35.21
studied the word of God and
understanding the word of God
00:25:35.25\00:25:39.29
made me a better person in
marriage. Does that mean it's
00:25:39.32\00:25:43.29
all been a bed of roses? No not
at all. We've had our ups and
00:25:43.32\00:25:47.99
downs but using the word of God
as our measure, as our guide, we
00:25:48.03\00:25:52.66
have been able to adhere
to what God asks us to do.
00:25:52.69\00:25:58.53
Amen, amen. It's so much
more beautiful when Jesus is the
00:25:58.56\00:26:04.74
center of your marriage. The
Bible tells us that a three-cord
00:26:04.77\00:26:09.82
or three, how does that say
that? A three part cord cannot
00:26:09.85\00:26:13.98
easily be broken. So when Christ
is the foundation for your
00:26:14.02\00:26:18.12
marriage it
changes your outlook.
00:26:18.15\00:26:20.23
What happens inside makes
you see things different on the
00:26:20.26\00:26:25.31
outside, that
God is in your life.
00:26:25.35\00:26:27.01
You know, Desmond, I am so glad
that you are going to be coming
00:26:27.04\00:26:31.54
back and we will be having
Dr. Mattocks back. We're going
00:26:31.58\00:26:36.21
to be talking about the role
of marriage in society today and
00:26:36.24\00:26:40.61
then we're going to be talking
about the role of church in
00:26:40.64\00:26:44.68
redeeming and helping to redeem
married couples. How long have
00:26:44.72\00:26:48.73
you been a Christian counselor?
00:26:48.76\00:26:50.31
Since 1984. I became a social
worker and from there on I began
00:26:50.34\00:26:56.45
to look at it from a different
perspective and it's been about
00:26:56.49\00:27:02.56
seven years. Seven
years and I'm sure it's
00:27:02.60\00:27:05.18
been very rewarding. Well
thank you so much. We really do
00:27:05.21\00:27:08.85
appreciate you coming all
the way from Miramar and I
00:27:08.89\00:27:13.32
understand your
daughter came up with you.
00:27:13.35\00:27:15.09
Yes, but she had
to go back today.
00:27:15.13\00:27:17.61
Well I hope that you got
to have the full tour of 3ABN.
00:27:17.65\00:27:21.48
It was a good experience.
00:27:21.52\00:27:23.04
Praise the Lord. Thank you so
much for being here. I hope that
00:27:23.07\00:27:27.67
you will remember always that
Jesus Christ paid a price for
00:27:27.70\00:27:32.23
you with his own special blood.
That's how much he loves you and
00:27:32.27\00:27:37.00
that's how much your worth
to the Father that he would send
00:27:37.04\00:27:40.39
how own son. You are the
redeemed of the Lord if you've
00:27:40.42\00:27:43.70
accepted Christ as your Savior.
Now may the grace of our Lord
00:27:43.74\00:27:47.14
Jesus Christ, the love of
the Father and the fellowship
00:27:47.17\00:27:50.81
of the Holy Spirit be with
you today and throughout the
00:27:50.85\00:27:54.45
rest of your life.
00:27:54.48\00:28:00.01