Participants: J.D. Quinn (Host), Mike and Gayle Tucker
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000267
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00:30 Hello, I'm J. D. Quinn with Issues and Answers.
00:33 Welcome to our program today. 00:35 Today we're talking about 00:37 marriage and the family. I have 00:39 some special guests with me today that I know that you're 00:42 going to enjoy. I always like to start off with a scripture. 00:47 Today's scripture is taken from Proverbs 22:6 and I'm sure that 00:50 most of you know this. Train a child in the way that he should 00:54 go and when he is old he will not depart from it. 00:59 What a wonderful promise that is. My special guests: Welcome 01:04 to 3ABN, welcome to Issues and and Answers. These are Pastors 01:09 Mike and Gayle Tucker from Arlington, Texas, right in the 01:13 midst of the Metroplex, the future home of the Dallas 01:17 Cowboys and the Texas Rangers. So anyway, we're glad you're 01:22 here. Share something about yourselves with us. 01:26 We have been married for 31 01:28 years and we have two adult 01:30 daughters who are just the joy 01:32 of our lives and now we have a 01:34 son-in-law as well. All three of them are involved in church work 01:40 and we're just thankful for that. They love the Lord Jesus. 01:43 Of course we have pastored together in Arlington for the 01:46 last 14-1/2 years and thoroughly enjoy that and for the last 01:49 several years I've been involved with Faith for Today as the 01:53 speaker/director. So that's kind of a little bit about us. 01:56 And you're the senior pastor. You're the associate pastor. 02:00 I am, and I enjoy being able to be there and to minister 02:04 together. It's just been a great gift really that God just put in 02:08 our laps and so we enjoy it a lot. 02:10 Yeah, I was reading your story and it's just absolutely a 02:14 miracle. In 25 words or less growing up you knew that you 02:18 wanted to be a pastor but then time came when you thought well 02:21 I don't know if I really want to work that hard. 02:23 That's right. Yeah, I was struggling with this. I didn't 02:27 want to be a pastor even though I knew I was called for it. 02:31 So I compromised with God. I became an academy Bible teacher. 02:35 That's pretty close you know. So as I was doing that I came home 02:39 one day and opened the mail box and there was a ministerial 02:41 license. The conference gave it to me. Then a couple years later 02:45 they told me, oh by the way, we're going to ordain you. 02:48 I was still teaching and had never pastored a church and it 02:51 was like God had just said, no you're not getting away from me 02:54 buddy. Then I tried to leave denominational employment 02:57 as I went into business with my dad and the conference asked me 03:01 to just for six weeks take this little church over here, it was 03:04 130 members, 200 members, something like that, just 03:07 interim pastor for six weeks until we find a permanent 03:10 replacement. I was there for 7-1/2 years. From that time on 03:15 I've been hooked on pastoral ministry. I dearly love pastoral 03:19 ministry. So the Lord just wouldn't let me go, he wouldn't 03:23 let me go. It's just unbelievable. I mean 03:29 he had this plan before the foundation of time and you were 03:32 trying to do it your way but he wasn't going to let you get away 03:36 It's amazing how often he wins. Thank goodness. It's a good 03:40 thing. It is a good thing. 03:41 Now I know that besides having your church you're both 03:45 counselors. Okay, I know that you're a licensed counselor. 03:50 I know that you talk about marriage and the family, too. 03:55 You guide people. But how about your own family? 04:00 I mean, do you have warts in your own family? 04:04 Of course we do. We're about as human as anybody else. We have 04:08 warts in our relationship and if you were to ask my children 04:12 privately they will tell you that although they think we were 04:15 pretty good parents, they'll know that we weren't perfect 04:17 either. They could probably share with you a few of the 04:21 mistakes that we've made along the way. But our joy is that 04:24 our children still like us and they love the Lord greatly. 04:28 They have such admiration and respect for their mother. 04:33 These girls call her regularly whether they're cooking or 04:37 teaching or no matter what it is they call mom for advice. 04:42 And their dad too. Yes, from time to time yes they do. 04:46 I think the thing with parenting is that when you each day, every 04:51 day, spend time with the Lord 04:53 and try to do the very best that 04:55 you can that day and what you 04:56 think the Lord wants you to do 04:58 with those children then in the end what they will remember will 05:03 be mainly the good things. Their life will be in accordance with 05:09 what God's will was and they're not going to remember the 05:11 foibles along the way as much as they remember that they had a 05:14 good home that was founded on the Lord. 05:16 Yeah, the thing that I remember so often and I guess everybody 05:19 does it, you know, but we were poor growing up but we didn't 05:22 know it. You know there's something special about that 05:26 kids are adaptable. Yeah they are. As long as they 05:30 are happy and they feel secure, they know that they are loved, 05:33 there's a purpose and a direction to your life as a 05:36 family children are happy whether they've got a lot or a 05:40 little. To know that they are loved and valued, to know that 05:43 mom and dad love each other. That's one of the things that 05:45 Gayle and I really focused on was making sure that our 05:48 commitment stayed strong and that we had time for each other 05:51 when our children were small. You know, kids are kids. From 05:54 time to time our kids would try to play one against the other. 05:57 They'd figure that one was a little softer touch than the 06:01 other. But Gayle and I worked as a team and so we always had an 06:04 agreement that whenever the children would ask us for 06:06 something, especially if it was somewhat suspect, we would 06:09 always ask the question, have you asked your mother, or she 06:12 would ask have you asked your father? So the children would 06:15 come to me, Daddy, can we do such and... Have you asked your 06:18 mother. Daddy, you're the head of the household, you've make 06:21 this decision. I'd say, ah ha, you've asked your mother haven't 06:24 you? Daddy, you always ask that. I'd say yes I do and there's a 06:27 reason for that. One day you're going to grow up and leave me 06:30 and I'm going to spend the rest of my life with that woman and 06:34 I'm not going to make her mad now. So we're a team, we work 06:37 together as a team and the children in the long run I think 06:40 valued that. Absolutely. 06:42 I think what's important is monkey see, monkey do. 06:46 Yeah, that's true. They will raise their children the same 06:48 way. Exactly, so you know you are the 06:49 role models and it's very important because whenever they 06:53 get their back backed into a corner they're going to come out 06:56 and do what mommy and daddy did. 06:57 Yes that's right. Yes whether they realize it or 07:00 not often you say to yourself, man, I hear my mother's voice 07:04 coming out of my mouth or my father's voice. Things that you 07:08 thought, I'll never do that, but you do it because it's ingrained 07:11 and so we need to be aware of that when we're parenting that 07:16 we are passing on things to our children and to our 07:19 grandchildren. Our children both are teachers 07:22 and they will tell us, they say every now and then I hear myself 07:27 saying something that mom would say. I hear myself saying 07:30 something that dad would say. They will giggle about it but 07:34 then they say, you know it's not all that bad because these are 07:37 good things and things that we've learned as we grew up. 07:39 First of all, y'all been married 31 years and both look younger 07:44 than that. Aren't you nice. 07:45 We're going to hang around here a lot. 07:47 She was 12 when I married her. 07:48 I'll bet that's right and I would believe that. 07:51 So you're children are probably 20 or 25? 07:59 They're 24 and 26. And our son- in-law is right between them. 08:05 He's a Christian teacher as well so we're really thrilled with 08:09 our family. But you know we have learned some things along the 08:14 way; some things that we think are valuable when it comes to 08:19 raising children. The first thing that I learned about 08:21 parenting is that it's the most guilt-producing thing I've ever 08:24 done in my life. I've never done anything that made me feel any 08:27 guiltier than raising kids because no matter what I did, I 08:30 always knew that I could have done better. There was always 08:34 that sickening feeling inside and whenever I blew it with the 08:37 kids, man, you know I owe them better than that. I owe the Lord 08:41 better than that. But even though the guilt was there, now 08:45 that I'm at this point in life and I see my children and the 08:49 beautiful young women that they are, I know that God had his 08:52 hand on us and in spite of my short-comings God was able to 08:57 take my best efforts and turn it into pure gold in the lives of 09:01 those young women because they are just a joy to us, a joy to 09:06 the Lord and a joy to us. We thank God for that. So it is 09:10 guilt-producing but... It is. But when we look back 09:14 and we try to form some principles that would help 09:17 people along the way I think probably the biggest thing is 09:21 to do the hard work when they're young. Do the hard work when 09:26 they're a year old, 18 months, two years old and it is hard 09:30 work. I think we get very 09:32 exhausted with it. You know, 09:35 they say that mothers get tired 09:37 the day their children are born 09:38 and they don't get over it until they leave the house. And it's 09:44 really true. I've been tired ever since and I think because 09:48 it is exhausting, we tend to kind of take the easy way out 09:53 sometimes. But children especially in those toddler 09:58 years are focused on getting their own way because that's 10:01 born in us, it's ingrained in us and so they're trying to get 10:06 their way and often we will give up. You know, they'll outlast us 10:10 with their tantrum or whatever it happens to be and we'll just 10:15 give in and that's the worst thing we could every do. We have 10:19 got to stay with it and make sure that if they're throwing a 10:24 tantrum that that never gets for them what they wanted. 10:29 They never succeed with that. You have to stay with it. 10:33 You have to not let them outlast you. Because if you do that hard 10:39 work and day to day to day just make sure that you are the 10:44 parent, that you give them the guidelines, that you say no when 10:49 you need to say no and say yes as often as you can, as often 10:54 as you possibly can. Then they will grow into a childhood that 10:58 you can enjoy from then on. Do the hard work when they're under 11:03 two or under three years old and then you'll enjoy the rest of 11:06 their childhood. But I'll tell you what, if you don't do that 11:10 hard work when they're little and you take the easy way out, 11:14 you will have a hard time their entire childhood and their teen 11:18 years you'll just be so sorry that you didn't do it earlier. 11:24 I had a young mom in my office last week and she said, I'm so 11:29 determined that I want to help my baby, who is just a few 11:35 months old right now. She said, I want her to grow to be a woman 11:40 of God and how am I going to know how to help her make the 11:44 decisions that she needs to make in her life. And she said, I 11:48 know maybe it sounds silly to ask this question now because 11:51 she's not grown. I said, no this is the time to ask that question 11:55 this is the time to have a plan and know that you're going to 11:58 guide her and that you're not going to get exhausted, that 12:02 you're going to always do that hard work while she's little. 12:06 Then one of the best ways to make sure that they will be able 12:11 to make good decisions when they're older is to give them as 12:15 many choices as you possibly can all the way through their 12:19 growing up years. When they're real little you don't say to a 12:23 child, do you want to have a sandwich now, if you want them 12:27 to eat. What you say is do you want your sandwich to have a lid 12:31 or no lid? So they get to make a choice. We all want control and 12:35 children want control. So they have got control right there. 12:38 They can decide, does my sandwich have a lid or not have 12:41 a lid. And they learn to make those decisions. A little bit 12:44 older it's do you want to wear the green outfit or the blue 12:47 one. Do you want to go to Chuck E Cheese or Pizza Hut? 12:54 You know, whatever it happens to be. As they're growing you 12:57 give them as many choices as possible but those choices are 13:01 always within the parameters that you have set up. You know 13:04 that either choice they make is going to be okay. Then the older 13:09 they get the more you broaden those boundaries until finally 13:13 you're not making the choices at all, they are making them. 13:17 But they've learned by making choices. Sometimes, you know, 13:20 I wish I hadn't chosen that, I wish I would have chosen the 13:23 other one. You let them make some mistakes as they go, but 13:26 you keep that protective boundary around them until the 13:30 point when they're grown and you remove that and they learn 13:34 because they've always made choices. 13:36 That's right. They find the habit of making choices so that 13:40 making choices is not something new to them. If you prescribe 13:43 every decision, every choice, through their childhood years, 13:46 when they reach teenage and they start to leave you then all of a 13:52 sudden they've never had the opportunity to make a choice. 13:54 They don't know how to make a right choice and they're going 13:57 to make some very bad choices. But if you've trained them in 13:59 the process of making choices 14:00 and give them a foundation for 14:02 making those choices. As our 14:04 children were growing, especially when they hit the 14:06 early teen years, they would come home at times and say 14:09 so and so did such and such. Why would they do that. That just 14:13 seems so foolish. I can't believe this. And we would have 14:16 the opportunity to say you know you have a foundation for making 14:19 choices. When you don't have the foundation for making a 14:21 choice, you're going to make bad choices. But you have a 14:24 foundation for your life and that is Jesus Christ. You know 14:28 right from wrong and that's what enables you to make wise 14:31 choices. You can decide and you can decide well. They've not 14:34 made those choices because evidently they don't have that 14:38 foundation, but you do. And that was encouraging for them. 14:41 We also were able to tell them that we were proud of them for 14:45 making those choices and then it let them see the contrast. 14:48 You know, I'm not in trouble, my life is happier because I've 14:52 made good choices versus these other people who have not made 14:56 good choices. I think that also the other thing that we learned 15:00 as our children grew is that rules should be few, they should 15:04 be well chosen, consistently enforced and that those rules 15:08 should always spring forth from a foundation of a relationship 15:13 of love. My children should first know dad and mom love me. 15:18 They are tender towards me, they are gentle with me, they care 15:22 about me, they praise me, they're proud of me, they love 15:26 me, and because they love me they want to protect me and 15:29 there are some rules. As a family we keep those rules 15:33 basically because they help protect us. It's important that 15:36 we have an explanation for the rule. If you can't explain it, 15:40 you may not need it. So there's a reason for the rule. But that 15:44 rule needs to be wise, there need to be as few rules as 15:48 possible but consistently enforced so that every time 15:52 the boundary is crossed there is a consequence. And if we let 15:56 them cross the boundary repeatedly without consequences 15:59 then they learn that this is not actually a rule after all; this 16:02 is something that dad said that he doesn't really mean and so 16:05 they don't take dad or mom seriously. But there need to be 16:08 consequences. Then as they grow we enabled our children to help 16:13 choose what those consequences would be and sometimes we'd even 16:17 sit down and help choose the rules together. So what are our 16:20 rules going to be about this and we'd kind of negotiate back and 16:23 forth. The final decision is always mom and dad's, you know. 16:28 We are a generous dictator but we negotiated back and forth and 16:33 then we'd decide the consequence and so that would be an 16:36 agreement and then if our children chose to break the rule 16:41 my response was you know I love and respect you so much that I 16:45 would never withhold from you a consequence that you have 16:48 freely chosen. You chose this on your own and I have such respect 16:52 I would never withhold from you this consequence. You've chosen 16:56 it for your own And that's biblical. 16:59 That's life isn't it? That is life. 17:02 We chose consequences. So although they didn't like that 17:07 ultimately they liked the end result which was they recognized 17:11 that to some extent they were masters of their own fate. 17:15 I can choose this, I can choose this and if I'm willing to pay 17:18 the price, I can chose this. But that price is pretty heavy 17:22 and don't always want to do that and it doesn't make me happy. 17:26 So instead I choose this. The best thing about all this was 17:30 that when our oldest daughter especially reached the age, she 17:35 was a senior in academy. Some of her friends were saying boy as 17:39 I graduate I am out of my parents' house. I am gone, I'm 17:43 going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to get my own 17:46 place. They looked at Allison. They said how about you? 17:50 She said no. Why? Well I've lived my life pretty much the 17:54 way I want to and I'm happy and mom and dad are paying for most 17:58 things, so why would I leave? She had learned to make choices 18:02 that we were happy with and that was now her lifestyle, that's 18:06 how she wanted to live. We weren't involved in helping her 18:10 make most of those choices, she was doing it on her own, she was 18:13 self-governing and she realized this was an easier life right 18:16 now. Until I'm out of college and can support myself, I'd 18:19 rather stay at home and so she was happy being with us because 18:24 she had learned to make choices along the way. And both of our 18:27 daughters ended up doing the same thing. They liked being at 18:31 home and that was fine because they'd lived their life pretty 18:34 much as they wanted to because they had learned to live those 18:38 lives within parameters. And that's what gave us joy was 18:41 watching them become young women who made those kind of choices. 18:44 Well the one thing that I keep 18:46 picking up in your relationship 18:48 as well as your children's 18:49 relationship is consistency. 18:51 There is consistency so consequently if you look behind 18:54 door number one, you're not going to be surprised. 18:56 You know we talked a little bit about learning things from your 19:00 family of origin and I think for me that definitely came from my 19:04 family of origin because I knew, I could have even articulated 19:08 to you when I was a child that if my mother said I was going to 19:12 get some such and such a consequence for doing something 19:16 it would absolutely happen. There was no doubt about it. 19:20 If she said this was going to happen, it would happen. I don't 19:24 know how she did it because she had four children and she worked 19:29 and she... well she didn't when we were real little, but later 19:34 on she did. But if she said she was going to do something, she 19:38 would do it. For me I think that was one of my most difficult 19:42 things only having two children. I couldn't hardly keep up. 19:46 Well what did I tell them about such and such. I told them there 19:49 was going to be a consequence for something and I would forget 19:54 because that wasn't my sole focus. But with children it is 19:58 their sole focus and they will remember. You know, mom said 20:04 this and then she didn't do it. They remember that. I'm sure 20:09 if you would talk to my mom she would probably say oh I 20:12 struggled with that too. But in my mind she didn't. If she told 20:15 me such and such was going to happen, she was so consistent 20:19 about it. I did learn that I could bluff 20:20 my way through at times. When they would do something and I 20:23 didn't remember what the consequence was, I'd look at 20:25 them and say, now what did I tell you the consequence would 20:29 be? Because I knew they would remember. Well Daddy, you said 20:34 ...all right that's happening. Then they thought I had 20:38 remember as well. I think the other part of it too 20:42 though is to always mix it with mercy. The gospel is all about 20:47 grace and grace is undeserved favor, something that we don't 20:53 merit, we don't deserve it, and there are times when just 20:58 because you know that it would do that child's heart good, you 21:02 don't follow through with the consequence as stated but you 21:06 talk it through with them and 21:08 you say we're not going to do 21:10 this because and you give them 21:12 grace so they see what it's like 21:14 what is God's grace like. God's grace is giving me something 21:17 that I totally don't deserve. That's right, and withholding 21:21 what I do deserve, which is the consequence. And that is his 21:25 grace. I can remember that happening 21:27 with some kind of a paper that one of the girls was supposed to 21:31 write and she'd gotten to the last second and she hadn't done 21:34 it and you know the consequence should be that she just goes to 21:38 school and suffers the consequence and instead, I could 21:43 tell this was really hurting her heart. So I just went in and I 21:47 said okay let's get this done and I worked on it together with 21:51 her practically through the night so that it could be done. 21:55 You know that means a lot to a child; oh my mom cares, it's not 21:59 all just about consequences and punishments and things like that 22:03 My mom loves me, she wants the best. 22:06 Children need to know that they are cherished, that there's a 22:10 tenderness between parent and child. I think that's 22:13 particularly true of dads. Obviously we are the stronger 22:18 supposed to be, of the two sexes and we represent justice and 22:23 judgment to our children, but there also needs to be that 22:27 grace and that tenderness and 22:29 respect in dealing with our 22:30 children. So we would endeavor not to embarrass our children 22:35 in public if indeed they deserve the consequence we might wait 22:39 until it is more of a private time and then we'd share with 22:42 them the consequence so as not to embarrass them in front of 22:45 their friends, because we wanted them to know that we respected 22:48 them, respected their feelings and we respected who they were 22:52 as individuals. And that's a part of the tenderness and the 22:55 gentleness. Then when I would speak to my children I tried to 22:58 make sure that I did not raise my voice at them, I didn't 23:00 scream at them. I've seen people scream at their children in 23:03 malls and at church and everything else. That doesn't 23:06 show respect for the children. It also tells me that the parent 23:08 has not learned to act. They scream and they don't act. 23:12 If you act, you don't have to scream in most cases. 23:15 Now obviously there will be variations on this rule because 23:19 there are children who have some emotional or physical problems 23:23 but for the most part if you act you don't have to scream. 23:27 Screaming is usually a sign of a failure to act and a failure 23:31 to do the hard work when they're very young. And so we would 23:35 withhold the screaming and instead treat them with dignity 23:38 and not try to make them feel like they're terrible people 23:42 but respect them. John Eldridge in particular in his books talks 23:46 about the role of the father in the lives of children and 23:49 this is key and I find this over and over again in my counseling. 23:52 What I end up doing now is refathering young adults who 23:57 were fathered poorly or whose fathers were absent. That is 24:01 such a tragedy. But basically it is the father who tells the 24:06 boy when he reaches manhood, you are a man. I'm proud of you. 24:11 You measure up, you measure up to your peers, you are among us 24:15 you are a man. If a father never really sends that message to a 24:19 son his son spends the rest of his life struggling to measure 24:23 up, looking for that acceptance, looking for that acknowledgement 24:26 that I measure up, that I am a man. I shared this with a 24:30 member of our church who has a lovely relationship with his 24:33 son and his son was away at college. I shared that little 24:36 concept of John Eldridge with him. He said, oh I'm not worried 24:39 about that because my boy knows, he knows that I believe in him. 24:42 But he got to thinking about it that night and so he made a 24:45 phone call to his son that evening while he was away at 24:48 college. He said, son you may think that I'm silly for saying 24:52 this but I just got to thinking about this after a conversation 24:56 with the pastor and I just want you to know how proud I am of 24:59 you. I want you to know that you are a man, that in my eyes you 25:03 truly measure up, that you have arrived, you are a man. He said 25:07 that there was a long silence on the phone after that and then 25:10 his son in tears said Dad you'll never know how long I waited 25:15 to hear you say that. That was a seminole moment in that young 25:19 man's life because dad had done the work of fathering and now 25:23 said you measure up. There are probably lots of 25:26 fathers out there who never do 25:28 that. That's right. And that is important. 25:31 It's also the father who tells the daughter you are a princess. 25:34 You are to be cherished and respected. You are someone who 25:38 deserves to be pursued, and you are to have enough respect for 25:42 your own body and yourself that you are to expect them to pursue 25:47 and you should be respected. You are a princess and you are 25:50 desirable. That is the father's job as well. When that doesn't 25:54 happen, the young woman develops father hunger and she may work 25:57 it all sorts of ways in order to try to fulfill that longing in 26:01 her heart. So it's important. Dads have a very important role 26:04 to play. Yes they do, I'll tell you. 26:06 Well here once again we're running out of time. We've got 26:10 about another minute and a half. Can you sum this up? 26:14 I would say one of the main things we need to remember is a 26:19 respect for our children. Respect them as individuals that 26:23 God created that God gave us and love them the way God loves 26:28 them. Take time to talk with them. Do the hard work when they 26:32 are little and be consistent with them. Let them know that 26:36 they are loved and cherished and that they are a part of your 26:39 family that you are eternally grateful for. 26:43 And I would add to that it's important that parents not be 26:47 afraid to be the parent. I think that there's been a lot of times 26:50 where people have said don't damage their psyche. No. You 26:54 have a responsibility to teach values and to lead by example 26:58 and to show your children that God loves them just as you do. 27:02 Don't be afraid to set boundaries, don't be afraid to 27:03 be the parent. It's always wonderful to have 27:08 you here. I just love what you've got to tell us. It's just 27:11 so practical. The good thing about it is that you've been 27:14 there and you've done that. You should be so proud of 27:17 yourselves in that your children have turned out well. 27:19 Well thank you. We're proud of the Lord and what he's 27:21 accomplished in our lives more than anything else. 27:23 Thank you, it's been a joy. Well I just want to thank you 27:27 both for being here because you're just so precious. I just 27:29 want to share with you before closing one of my favorite 27:34 scriptures. I Thessalonians 5:16-18. Basically it just says 27:38 Remember that the will of God is for us to rejoice always. Pray 27:42 without ceasing and to give all thanks to him for everything 27:47 that we have in our life. We love you here at 3ABN. 27:50 We always welcome you to tune in. 27:54 God bless each and every one of you. |
Revised 2014-12-17