Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Wayne and Sherri Labins
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000252
|
00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:33 Issues and Answers. Today we are going to be talking 00:36 about how the church is the one organization that is equipped to 00:41 be protective of its children and yet be redemptive towards 00:46 all people, even child molesters. So this is a very 00:50 important program because we are going to be discussing how 00:55 child molesters actually can target churches and what 00:59 churches can do to protect themself, protect their children 01:02 and yet how we need to reach out with the love of God to 01:07 bring other people in. Let me read you a scripture and this 01:11 is Matthew 10:16: Jesus said, behold I am sending you out 01:15 like sheep in the midst of wolves. Be wary and wise as 01:21 serpents and be innocent or harmless as doves. 01:25 That's going to be our issue. You may want to send your small 01:29 children out of the room for this program. Let me introduce 01:33 to you our special guest. We have returning with us 01:36 Wayne Labins. Wayne, thank you so much for coming back and 01:40 Sherri Labins. Your ministry is With Jesus' Strength. 01:45 Tell us about the ministry. 01:47 Well, With Jesus' Strength is just what it says. With Jesus' 01:52 strength all things are possible. 01:53 That's Philippians 4:13. And particularly we are reaching out 01:57 to those who are suffering under alcoholism, drug abuse, smoking, 02:02 sexual abuse, even abuse to exercise or food addiction; 02:05 anything that is abused or addictive in nature. 02:09 People need deliverance from that and only Jesus can truly 02:12 deliver someone completely from that. 02:15 And you're talking from the voice of experience. I know that 02:19 you, Sherri, have been delivered from drug and alcohol abuse, 02:25 and for you, Wayne, from something much more delicate 02:28 and that is child abuse. You are a registered sex offender who 02:33 fondled a young girl and your own daughter. Now that has been 02:37 some time in your past. Before we get into the church and 02:42 recognizing these things that happen and even predators 02:48 who can come into the church, before we get into talking about 02:51 how to protect your children and also how to redeem those who 02:56 are the abusers, I need to ask you something very specific 03:00 because I know from programming that I've done in the past 03:03 particularly with Cheri Peters. She has discussed the fact that 03:07 drug addicts or somebody that might be into alcoholism or 03:12 pornography that part of the healing and recovery process 03:17 that you can almost expect them to relapse a number of times. 03:23 With child abuse what would you say about the relapse issue? 03:28 Well, when an abuser enters into a therapy situation where they 03:33 learn the relapse prevention module, it is zero tolerance. 03:37 You cannot allow a child to be abused even one more time and 03:43 so there's zero tolerance and that really needs to be 03:45 emphasized. People who are in other addictions may think that 03:50 it only hurts themselves if they slip a little, but in this case 03:54 it damages a precious child of God. It can't happen. 03:58 So there should be no tolerance period. Now what has been the 04:05 church's response to child sexual abuse? 04:08 Well, generally the church has been a very trusting 04:12 organization. It has been somewhat slow to recognize that 04:17 they even have an issue with it, could possibly rear its ugly 04:20 head within the church and that makes it potentially a target 04:24 for predators. Those who may be identified as having this 04:30 problem, well it's like in society, it has a very strong 04:34 stigma attached to it and it tends to distance people. That 04:38 can't happen anymore. We've got to treat sexual abuse, child 04:42 sexual abuse, similar to how alcoholism used to be treated. 04:46 Remember when Betty Ford checked herself into the alcohol rehab? 04:48 It had a very strong social stigma attached to it. 04:52 It still does, but not as strong. Sexual abuse needs to 04:56 the point where we can discuss it and deal with it head-on, get 05:00 help and hold each other accountable, especially those 05:04 who are the abusers. They need the help of accountability 05:07 within the church body. Jesus called all sinners, all sinners 05:12 into the body of Christ. He promises help for all sinners 05:15 as well. I do know that I have read, 05:19 Sherri, on various web sites in researching some for this 05:25 program that they say that for an abuser, someone who is active 05:32 in this behavior, that they actually think of the church as 05:35 their number one target. Why do abusers target churches? 05:40 Well, for one, like I mentioned, they are kind of trusting. 05:45 There's this almost blinders-on idea that everybody is just 05:50 doing their good job, they're being good Christians and we 05:53 kind of see that in the pews. We come to church, maybe we had 05:56 a grumpy morning, but we come into church and we put our 05:57 smiles on. Well if everyone's smiling all the time and not 06:00 really sharing; how are you really, Shelley. How is your 06:04 day really going. If you just tell me well fine, we haven't 06:08 really communicated if it hasn't been fine. Because of that 06:12 atmosphere that maybe is not as real as it needs to be abusers 06:18 can slip in and start grooming their victims, and grooming 06:23 meaning starting to develop trust with them and maybe commit 06:28 an abuse. Okay. You know, we tell our 06:30 children to be careful not to talk to strangers, but yet in 06:34 church we encourage them to be friendly. So what can we do as 06:39 a church body, a church family, to protect our children from 06:44 sexual child abuse? First thing is the things that 06:49 would normally come to mind in any environment, even in your 06:51 home environment. Parents need to take the time to talk to 06:54 their children at age appropriate times what's good 06:57 touch or bad touch, what's acceptable touch and behavior 07:01 and from whom. I mean, that needs to be discussed at a very 07:04 young age. As they grow older, you can get more detailed, okay, 07:07 age appropriate. But in the church in particular, again, 07:10 because it's such a trusting organization, we can sometimes 07:13 forget, that you know what, we need to be accountable to each 07:16 other and helpful for each other. The first thing that can 07:19 be done is to use the tools that are out there that the 07:22 community is using. There are websites out there where you 07:25 can look up sex offenders and see where they live and find 07:28 out if they are coming to your church. There's no reason you 07:31 can't use those tools. However, as a church you need to use them 07:36 in a way that's also redemptive. The information that is out 07:41 there by state law cannot be abused. Okay? You can't use it 07:44 to harass, but you can certainly use it to talk to 07:47 someone and share with someone. You know, you've been coming to 07:50 this church for a few years now and we've found some information 07:52 out. We'd like to talk to you about that. There's nothing 07:54 wrong with that. If a person is coming to church for good 07:59 reasons they will be understanding. 08:02 They've gone through a lot of things that they've had to go 08:04 through in talking with people. They might have gone through 08:06 jail or gone through probation. They understand they've crossed 08:10 the line in the past. There are certain things that are not open 08:12 to them. They are not going to be in scouting programs, they 08:15 are not going to be in church children's programs, but they 08:19 should still be able to be in the church body and gaining from 08:22 the blessings of corporate worship. It says, do not forsake 08:27 the assembling of yourselves together. That means everybody. 08:31 There are blessings in corporate worship, but there needs to be 08:34 protection as well. So the church can do those things. 08:38 They can also organize their environment in a way that the 08:41 children are protected. For example, in the classrooms there 08:44 need to be windows in the doors or in the walls even better. 08:49 There always needs to be two adults, always, in children's 08:54 programs always present, preferably not a husband and 08:57 wife. Those are two main things right off the bat that churches 09:00 can implement right now. Instead of hiding from this issue invite 09:05 the whole church to watch a video. Church Mutual has an 09:09 excellent video on how to organize your worship center 09:14 in such a way that you're as protective as possible. There 09:17 are background checks, there is fingerprinting just like in the 09:20 public schools. Maybe this all sounds like too much for a 09:24 worship center but how much is too much for a child? 09:27 You know, when J.D. and I were going through ministerial school 09:30 15 years ago one of the first things we learned, they were 09:35 talking about never counsel alone with a person of the 09:38 opposite sex. But as far as structuring the Sabbath School 09:43 classes, or at that time we were Sunday keepers, but what we were 09:48 told is that any program that involves children you should 09:52 have a background check and get references. You do not accept 09:56 someone even if somebody has been going to your church for 10:01 many years. I'll use an example that's somewhat of this nature 10:05 but a little bit different. In my sister's church in New Mexico 10:09 they had a registered sex offender who had been going 10:13 to church there for five years on probation and they knew and 10:17 they trusted and began to love and trust this man in such a 10:22 way that they believed by faith he is healed and they actually 10:27 assigned him to drive the bus that would pick the children 10:31 up for Sunday School. No way. Yes, this is what they did. 10:36 And after a few months of doing this he actually raped a couple 10:42 of young girls who were the last ones he was taking home. So 10:50 what would you say? We want to be redemptive, but if someone 10:55 has this history, would you say that means never ever, ever 10:59 give them those kind of positions with children? 11:02 Never ever, ever, ever. To me they should not ask for 11:08 those positions. Wayne would never ask to be in charge of 11:13 cradle roll. He would not ask to be the Pathfinder director, you 11:18 know. That's just something that is not open. It's like he would 11:22 not go to do those things and he doesn't want to. It's like you 11:26 don't open those doors no matter and our church loves and trusts 11:30 him and they even at one point thought man... Because we'll 11:34 go on camping trips with our church and with a big bunch of 11:39 us but it's the families and it's not us taking just a bunch 11:44 of kids. It's the kids going with their parents and stuff. 11:48 So they thought oh but Wayne gets along so well with, you 11:52 know, we all get along so well with the youth and kids and we 11:55 all have so much fun with their families but there is no way we 11:59 would ever take on that role or he would want that role. 12:02 And those families parents know Wayne's situation. There's just 12:08 no way. To really address what you're 12:11 saying: Never is the answer. Never. Once someone has crossed 12:16 the boundary of offending against a child that's it. 12:20 There are certain consequences that go on for the rest of your 12:25 life. People talk about a cure for pedophilia, a cure for child 12:29 molesting and the literature is kind of mixed on that. To me 12:34 I'm a registered sex offender okay, but I'm also a registered 12:38 child of God, okay. That means I don't trust myself. I trust my 12:43 God but it does not mean for a minute that I'm all better. I'll 12:48 just go on and engage in behaviors that could be at risk. 12:53 Don't even go there. Don't have even the appearance of evil is 12:58 what it says, okay. You know, something that you 13:00 told me when we first were talking many months ago is that 13:04 the accountability program... you're big on accountability... 13:09 and oh do I want you to hear this, whether you are a molester 13:13 or you know a molester or if there's someone that's going to 13:18 your church who is a registered sex offender, the accountability 13:22 program is critical. But you said something to me that was so 13:27 interesting. You mentioned that you even will have an 13:30 accountability partner that you'll ask someone to go to 13:33 the bathroom with you and it's not because you're worried so 13:36 much that you're going to repeat the act, but you don't even want 13:41 to be falsely accused or you want to avoid the very 13:46 appearance of evil. Exactly. Yes, why not, too? 13:50 I mean, people have gone through going to jail, going 13:53 through the court process, maybe losing their family. Why risk 13:56 any of that again? There's value in the corrective, the 14:00 punishment, okay, so learn from it. Don't put yourself in a 14:04 situation where you've ever going to be questioned again. 14:07 You want to ere so far on the side of safety and 14:11 conservatism that no one even has any question. Now this is 14:16 not the same as what can happen with abusers; it's called 14:21 religiosity. They can become overly religious, they can be 14:25 holier than thou and they can actually deceive themselves into 14:29 thinking well God's forgiven me, I'm all better now, I don't have 14:33 to do these accountability practices anymore. I'm done. 14:37 That's setting yourself up. 14:39 That's like taking someone who was an alcoholic who's walked 14:45 in recovery for many years and saying let's put you in the bar 14:50 as the bartender because you're all healed. Why would anyone 14:55 want to say I'm healed but I'm going to return back to those 15:00 old circumstances maybe reopening something you 15:04 don't want to reopen? Why even go close to that? 15:08 Okay, I have a difficult question for you. When it comes 15:16 to sexual child abuse, most people are revolted and we 15:22 definitely want to be... I feel like in some ways most 15:29 churches have their head in the sand because we are so trusting. 15:31 We don't do background checks in many places. But when we 15:36 learn that someone has this background then you hear some 15:41 people who are so revolted about it that they want to shun that 15:45 person. We can't do that either because that's not what Jesus 15:48 would do. How do we get a balance in here to make sure 15:53 we're doing all that can do to protect our children and yet 15:59 to reach out to redeem those or to accept those who Christ has 16:04 redeemed? That's a good question. 16:06 I would say that what the church needs to do again is to face 16:12 this head-on and as you start talking about it honestly and 16:16 openly with the whole church family you start to realize, you 16:20 know what there but for the grace of God go I. You know 16:23 what people start realizing you know what I could have gone 16:27 down that road too. Especially if they'd had the 16:31 background. Many abusers have been abused and there's a cycle 16:35 that goes on. That's right. But you know Jesus himself 16:39 who did he associate with? He associated with the worst; you 16:43 know, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into 16:46 heaven ahead of you. You know, he identified and reached out 16:50 to those who were the worst in society. Okay, well you can pick 16:53 whoever you want to be the worst in society and you know what 16:57 child molesters have to be down there, okay. We're in prison 17:01 ministry and that's about the lowest there is. But you know 17:05 what, Christ reached down to even that level and that's 17:09 partly why we're here. If he can do it with Saul turning into 17:13 Paul; Paul was the worst too, he says I'm the chief sinner, I'm 17:16 the worst, he can do it with anyone. He can and we have to 17:20 as a church body realize that; being protective but also being 17:23 protective but also redemptive at the same time. It can be done 17:27 but again only with Jesus' strength. 17:29 Now Wayne I know that part of what you and Sherri do as your 17:34 ministry is you have a passion for the message of purity. 17:39 How do we create that atmosphere of purity at our churches 17:44 without becoming stiff and formal? 17:48 Well, there something I like to do and Sherri's seen me do this. 17:52 I like saying brother and sister okay. That's biblical, we talk 17:56 about the brethren. When we say brother and sister it 18:00 immediately sets up the boundaries of our relationship. 18:04 When I say Sister Shelley, you are my sister and as my sister 18:09 I should care for you, I should love you, but there are 18:13 boundaries to that level of love. Okay. It's not husband/ 18:17 wife love, it's brotherly love. Reinforcing that thinking that 18:20 you know what there's brotherly and sisterly love within every 18:24 church family. It helps, especially for men who are so 18:29 visual, that's my sister, not somebody or something to think 18:33 about lustfully in any way. It reinforces the proper thinking 18:38 that God wants us to have in setting up those boundaries. 18:42 That just brings sexual purity into the church. We want that. 18:46 When we're in the church and we're sitting there in the pews 18:49 who wants a man distracted by lustful thoughts. You know, 18:53 that's just not a place for the church to be. As you reinforce 18:57 sexual purity in the church, hit that issue head on 19:00 especially at men's retreats. I just got back from one and 19:04 Bernie Anderson shared how three or four years ago he was caught 19:09 up in pornography, addicted to it and he's a pastor in the 19:12 church. His name was in News Week and other programs. 19:16 Praise God, he is going out and sharing how God delivered him 19:21 as well. We need to hit these things head-on and having purity 19:26 in the church by being intentional about it is 19:30 how the bride will make herself without spot or wrinkle. That's 19:34 how Jesus can come back. He's looking for a pure church like 19:37 it was during the apostles' time where you helped each other 19:40 I believe there's a good scripture on this: 19:47 I Timothy 5:2: How should you treat the elder women; treat 19:51 them as mothers. How should you treat the younger, as sisters 19:56 with what, with all purity. That's how we should be treating 20:01 each other. I'll put my two cents in here 20:04 that I believe in the A-frame hug or the sideways hug. That's 20:09 something that quite important that you're not doing a full 20:13 body press when somebody's hugging you in church. 20:17 Sherri, you do not have children, is that correct. 20:22 I have three stepchildren. 20:23 Three stepchildren and that's your children. As if you were 20:29 a mother of a young child and with your experience, what would 20:32 tell mothers of young children to tell their children to avoid 20:41 say someone in the church who was a registered sex offender 20:46 and you knew, what would you tell those children to avoid 20:50 becoming groomed or a target for that person? 20:53 Well a lot of times to me I feel the kids have so much pressure 20:58 that a lot of time especially like the younger children that 21:02 they really don't know. To me kids should just be able to be 21:07 kids. But you do definitely want to have the good touch, bad 21:11 touch, but to me it's the adults... 21:14 When you say have the good touch, bad touch you mean 21:16 have that conversation explained to the child. 21:19 Right explain to the child. But to me, have the adults... 21:24 Like to me, I'm super hyper sensitive on this and when I'm 21:28 at church your kids are pretty safe because I'm watching who 21:31 I know may be somebody I'm suspicious of or I've seen act 21:37 in a suspicious way maybe and I will be watching to see how 21:41 like if a child goes to the bathroom, if there's somebody 21:44 hanging out in the lobby and the child is in the lobby at that 21:49 time I will watch just at that same time just to be sure, you 21:54 know, that all goes well so that a child does not get abused or 21:59 whatever. I'm just really sensitive on that. 22:01 Well that's important and I guess what occurs to me is 22:05 that parents should if they even have to swap 22:09 responsibilities, who's going to be the sentry to kind of 22:12 watch over the children. Because sometimes we have a tendency 22:15 when we're at church just to let our children run free 22:18 because we feel like everything is so safe. With the social 22:22 stigma that is attached to this condition or sin, condition of 22:31 sin, a lot of people are some what reluctant to reach out for 22:37 help because... Let's say there is someone who is going to 22:42 church who may be into pornography, may have acted out 22:47 by fondling a child, as you did. Maybe they've never been 22:52 convicted. How can we as a church reach those people who 22:57 are doing what you did initially and it's holding it back, not 23:02 able to find the strength to confess it? 23:04 Well talking about it certainly helps, okay. We can't hide our 23:08 heads in the sand anymore about it. Talk about it not in a way 23:12 that's so confrontational but talk about what's real life. 23:16 These are real issues that people are dealing with. 23:17 As the church deals with real issues, you know what, the 23:21 church is going to grow because it will start to help people 23:24 realize this is a place for true healing. It's not just 23:28 people going through the forms of church life. The church is a 23:33 living, breathing organism. God wants it to be helpful and a 23:37 beacon of light. If it's dim because of internal festering 23:40 and disease we're not going to be affective and we're not 23:44 going home. We're not going home until we have a healthy 23:50 pure church. One thing in addition to talking is modeling 23:55 good behavior. The church has to model that purity in order 24:00 to really believe that it's possible. Model being able to 24:04 talk to people. Show that, you know what, you're trustworthy. 24:10 The confidentiality is important to start out with. Someone has 24:14 to be able to say I need to talk with you about something. 24:19 You're someone I feel I can talk to. Again, there are 24:22 mandated reporter laws. So the pastors and others are required 24:27 to report on these kinds of issues. 24:29 But what... let's say that I've got a problem and I'm listening 24:33 to this program right now and I decide I need to come talk 24:36 to the pastor. Now you're telling me, Hey, they're going 24:41 to have to report you. How would you reassure me under those 24:45 circumstances. That's why we're here. Because 24:48 Jesus led us through that and he will lead people through the 24:53 difficult things. As scary as it may be to talk about it and 24:58 to admit and to confess fault, don't let Satan have even one 25:02 more victory. Every day that goes by that someone who is in 25:06 an abusive situation, knows it, wants help but doesn't do 25:09 anything about it is another victory for Satan. Jesus wants 25:13 to have victory in our lives. Jesus wants victory in our whole 25:16 church, the whole church body. So somehow people have to 25:21 understand I trust God to lead me through. The church has 25:26 living flesh and blood to reach out to us okay. There's got to 25:31 be someone who can be confident who can listen and share. If it 25:36 is not the pastor, it's got to be someone you trust. Find 25:38 somebody. Because as an abuser admits it to even one person the 25:42 chances of abuse go way, way down. It starts the ball of 25:46 of recovery rolling So are you saying though that 25:49 the consequences of confessing this which means that you could 25:55 do jail time, lose your job, lose your family, those are less 26:01 important than consequences of abusing a child one more time? 26:05 Absolutely. How can you ever even balance it out. You can 26:09 think about all the things about yourself but that's where the 26:12 selfishness comes into play. Look at the child. Where is she 26:17 at? She is powerless. She is helpless to resist; she or he, 26:22 exactly. How can you compare the damage that's being caused to 26:28 that child versus your loss of maybe a job, whatever. Jesus 26:32 will see you through it. Help this person right now, this 26:36 abused person right now by admitting, coming forward. 26:40 There's no other way around it. 26:41 Speak straight to the person out there. 26:43 There's no other way around it. The only way that you can 26:48 truly get deliverance if you want deliverance, words are one 26:53 thing but you cannot just go to God and say God please forgive 26:57 me for what I've done and slap yourself on the wrist and say, 27:01 I'm all better now. There's got to be accountability to the 27:04 church. There's got to be accountability to some living, 27:07 breathing person here on this 27:08 planet so that your faith is real. 27:12 Wayne, thank you so much. Sherri, it's just gone by too 27:17 quickly. We appreciate your sharing. I hope that you've 27:21 learned something that you can take to the bank and put into 27:25 practice in your church. And I hope that if you are an abuser 27:29 that you will know, claim Psalm 129:4 27:32 The Lord is righteous. He can cut you free from the cord of 27:36 the wicked that is binding you. A child is too precious to put 27:40 through this kind of misery and it's too far reaching. 27:44 May the Lord bless you incredibly more than you 27:47 could ever ask or think. Thank you for joining us today 27:51 and please tune in again. |
Revised 2014-12-17