Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Wayne and Sherri Labins
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000251
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00:31 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:33 Issues and Answers. I do want to warn you parents 00:37 that the topic that we are going to be discussing today is 00:40 delicate. We'll be talking about child sexual abuse and recovery 00:44 from this. So if you have small children in the room, you may 00:48 want to send them out of the room now. I would like to open 00:51 the program with the scripture as usual and I've chosen 00:54 James 5:16, and it says: Confess to one another therefore your 01:03 faults, your slips, your false steps, your offences, your sins 01:08 and pray also for one another that you may be healed and 01:13 restored to a spiritual tone of mind and heart. The earnest, 01:19 heartfelt continued prayer of a righteous man makes tremendous 01:23 power available dynamic in its working. This comes from the 01:29 Amplified version of the Bible but boy does this give the full 01:34 impact of that verse. Our special guests today are the 01:38 Labins. They are returning again to share more of their testimony 01:43 of recovery. Let me introduce you to Wayne, it's nice to have 01:48 you here again, and Sherri. Now you all have a program and a 01:53 ministry that is called With Jesus' Strength. Tell us a 01:57 little bit about that ministry. 02:00 Well, it's a ministry that is really emphasizing Jesus all the 02:04 way through in giving us strength to overcome all sorts 02:08 of habitual sin, not just sexual abuse, but addictions to drugs 02:14 and alcohol, smoking, food, exercise addiction, we've even 02:18 heard of exercise addictions. So the emphasis in our ministry 02:21 is that Jesus can provide and will provide deliverance from 02:26 these abusive and addictive behaviors if you only ask; you 02:31 have to ask first. But then there's more and we'll talk 02:33 about the accountability with other people as well in your 02:36 life. Amen. Now Sherri, I know that 02:39 we had your testimony previously and you discussed how you had 02:44 been brought up in the church but at an early age when your 02:48 parents divorced you went off in a different path and became 02:52 involved with drugs and alcohol. But we proved that when you 02:57 train up a child in the way you should go you will not depart 03:01 from it as you're older. And God brought you back into a strong 03:05 personal relationship with him. Then once he delivered you, he 03:13 introduced you to a man, Wayne, who had also been cut free from 03:17 the cord of the wicked that was binding him. Wayne, for our 03:20 viewers who may not have seen the program before when we 03:23 shared your testimony. You are a convicted child molester and you 03:29 fondled your daughter and another small child and after 03:33 those two incidents you turned your life over to the Lord and 03:37 God has changed you. But what we're going to be talking about 03:41 today is something that is so important and I love the fact 03:45 that you always focus on this and that is accountability, 03:49 accountability, accountability. So let me begin by asking how 03:55 would you define child sexual abuse? 04:00 Well child sexual abuse involves the sexual gratification of 04:05 either the perpetrator or the child or both. It involves 04:12 touching, it involves using verbal sexually explicit images 04:19 to try to reduce the inhibitions of a child. All that is covered. 04:24 Sexual pornography, either adult pornography or child pornography 04:27 It all comes under the definition of child sexual abuse 04:30 Any time that the barriers between physical contact are 04:38 violated in sexual areas of the body, that's sexual abuse. But 04:42 that's really kind of man's definition and it certainly 04:46 applies, but God's standards are higher. What I wanted to kind of 04:51 emphasize that sexual abuse is also abuse of the gift of 04:55 sexual intimacy that God bestows for a man and a woman in the 04:59 context of holy matrimony. There is a holy use for the 05:04 sexual gift of sexual intimacy and anything outside of that 05:08 is Satan's counterfeit. That's what's kind of opening up 05:13 people's eyes. We're talking about child sexual abuse, but 05:16 sexual abuse in general encompasses a huge area that 05:21 maybe people who are not in sexual abuse of a child, their 05:25 eyes might be opened up to what God has and he calls us ever 05:29 higher. Amen. Now how long ago were the 05:33 incidents in your life? In 1992. 05:37 1992. So what God has done in your life I think is tremendous. 05:44 The question I guess I want to ask is we want to understand why 05:48 do abuses abuse. I know that in your instance you actually 05:53 suffered sexual abuse as a child in what you are describing now 05:57 in that what you heard verbally, what you saw. You saw your 06:02 father fondle you stepsister and you followed in this path. But 06:07 why do abusers abuse? 06:09 I wanted to definitely address this question because I know 06:13 some people here, even here at 3ABN, have asked that question. 06:17 They just cannot get their mind around how anyone could cross 06:20 this boundary. Especially with a child. Especially with a child 06:24 The reason for all sin is somewhat of a mystery still. 06:30 But it comes down to selfishness it comes down to pride, it comes 06:35 down to wanting to go beyond what God has outlined as a safe 06:40 area for us in our lives. Child sexual abuse, the reason people 06:46 do that is a variety. Generally they have had abuse themselves. 06:53 That is not an excuse. I want to be very clear on that; that is 06:56 not an excuse for misbehavior and violating a child. But 07:01 generally that happens that there has been some sort of 07:05 deviant behavior as a young child. They have been exposed to 07:09 pornography, they have been exposed to sexual abuse and they 07:11 act out later on. But the reason why is sexual gratification for 07:17 one. There is no question that there is some sexual 07:19 gratification for the abuser. But it is also power, it's also 07:24 control. In many respects, as in my case, it was thrill of 07:28 getting away with something. It sickens me to hear that 07:33 that's what I went through, that's where I have been, but 07:36 that is an answer to the question of why. It's 07:39 multifaceted, it really is. 07:41 Sherri, for you, when you first met Wayne, you said that he said 07:50 to you before you become involved with me with your heart 07:54 connected with your heart, I want you to know in your mind 07:57 who I am. What was it like for you hearing of his story? 08:02 Even though he was now in recovery, Did it revolt you 08:06 at first? Yes, yes. I would say my stomach 08:10 got kind of nauseous. I respected him for being honest 08:15 because I had never had anybody be so honest with me and 08:20 especially with something that was so big. You know, I mean 08:25 that's something that nobody at all would be proud of. So I had 08:31 to respect him for that, but to me then it was like I need to 08:36 maybe try giving him the benefit of the doubt. My biggest thing 08:41 then was, if somebody is going to tell me something like that 08:45 I don't just want lip service. Show me. Kind of like the state, 08:50 show me state. I wanted to see so I watched Wayne and now he 08:56 interacted with his children, with other people's children, 08:59 and the accountability that he did have. And he had such a high 09:06 accountability that it made me trust him more. But like I could 09:09 see whenever his father came up to visit, I would ask him, You 09:13 know, Jerry, please don't let the kids climb on you, don't 09:20 let Monica climb on you. I'd like to have her sit next to you 09:25 and don't straddle you. Well you'd look over and you know 09:29 she's all over him and he would not monitor the situation and 09:34 he's the adult and we had asked him to please... 09:41 his history. Right. And we would ask him to please follow that 09:45 and he wouldn't. So it was always a constant stress any 09:48 time he visited. Had Wayne acted like his father and not had an 09:53 accountability and behaving in that way, like I told Wayne I 09:57 would have never married him. 09:58 But with the accountability it was so much different. 10:03 Now you told me once that when you were first considering all 10:08 of this, your mother walked in the room. Tell me that story 10:11 very briefly, because we're going to talk about this 10:14 recovery but part of your recovery, Wayne, what impresses 10:18 me is that God has led you that you're so honest and open that 10:22 as you share even with those who have suffered childhood 10:27 sexual abuse there's a healing. So share what your mother had 10:31 to say, Sherri. Right, well I was contemplating 10:36 what I'd heard from Wayne one day and my mother had walked 10:39 into the room and she's like, What's going on Sherri? 10:43 I'm like, Oh, I'm just thinking about Wayne and myself and she's 10:48 like, Well, he seems like a nice guy, Sherri. And I'm like, well 10:51 yes he's a really nice guy, I go but you know we all have some 10:55 issues, Mom, and baggage. And she goes, Well come on Sherri 11:00 it's not like he's a child molester or something and I went 11:04 Well Mom, have a seat. And she sat down next to me and I said 11:10 actually he has child molestation in his background. 11:16 He has molested Monica. And she's like, What. So we had a 11:22 long talk and she's like, well I would like to talk with Wayne, 11:25 she said, because I have some hurts in my life because my 11:30 grandfather, her father, had molested her as a child and she 11:39 wanted to talk to Wayne about some of the issues. And I always 11:41 remember as a kid mom always telling me, I mean, I never went 11:45 over to that grandfather's house and spent the night or anything 11:49 and she always said, If grand father touches you in a way 11:52 please let me know but it never happened to me. 11:55 So let's talk about what you did how God brought you through 12:04 recovery and what you would prescribe for someone who is 12:07 coming out of this or anyone who knows someone who is a 12:11 registered child molester or sex offender or someone who may 12:16 have actually gone through this themselves. What process did God 12:20 bring you through? Well, initially some of it was 12:23 outside my control. After I made the initial call to Child 12:26 Protective Services that started a process that everyone in this 12:30 situation has to go through. The system is set up to protect 12:33 the children and to isolate them from the abuser. That has to 12:37 happen. So in my case I had to move out of my home. I had to 12:40 move out. I had to get into therapy with a licensed who 12:44 specializes in sex offenders. But it does have a lot to do 12:50 with the person's own response. If they are in denial, if they 12:55 deny doing anything wrong, that will hold back their recovery, 12:58 that will hold back any sort of progress whatsoever. Really 13:02 the therapeutic process is there if someone is wanting and 13:05 willing to get help and that has to be the first step, to ask for 13:09 help and want it. Then do the hard work of facing the dirt in 13:14 your life. There is some real dirt. But the only way you can 13:17 get cleaned up is to first face the dirt and then get busy, get 13:22 busy with starting to clean up. In my case, getting cleaned up 13:25 was recognizing the selfishness in my life the self-centeredness 13:31 the looking at women and, in this case children, as objects. 13:40 I mean, that empathy training really was important to 13:44 recognize people are thinking, feeling persons, they're souls; 13:48 especially children. Children are powerless. They don't have 13:52 the maturity to resist this kind of a grooming behavior or molest 13:58 behavior... Stop for just a second, because 14:00 you used a word that some of our people won't understand. 14:03 In you're empathy training, you were taught to see the children 14:08 no longer as objects but as precious souls, but you said the 14:13 grooming behavior. What is grooming behavior? 14:17 Grooming behavior is the investment in time by an abuser 14:23 to develop a situation of trust with a potential victim and it's 14:27 kind of like a terrorist cell. The person is waiting and 14:32 waiting and waiting until there are some signs of trust and 14:36 the person who is an abuser will attempt to develop situations 14:41 that are lower risk to see what the level is of acceptance from 14:46 a child and getting their trust. Almost universally abuse victims 14:52 are known by their perpetrator, usually in the home or a close 14:56 relative, and that's just a sad fact. There is where there is 15:00 already built in trust so that grooming is building that trust 15:04 to eventually get to the point of taking advantage of it and 15:08 causing an action of committing an abuse. 15:11 So as you're going through this process yourself, you've been 15:15 isolated from your daughter, your children, and you had three 15:19 children, is that correct... That's correct. The girl and two 15:22 boys. Now you have reestablished the relationship with your 15:26 daughter now. Yes. What about with your sons? 15:29 Well, my younger son was actually too young to really 15:32 understand about all this too much. As he was older and all 15:36 three of my kids were shared basically my testimony in the 15:40 therapeutic environment, at the time I felt it was too early. 15:44 I was kind of forced into it but my younger son never really 15:52 disconnected from us, but my older son did and to this day 15:56 it's still a matter of earnest prayer about him that he would 16:01 come to the Lord some day and yes, certainly it is my heart's 16:06 that he would come back to our family because he has cut off 16:09 relationship not only with me but the whole rest of his family 16:12 Very destructive, and that's what I wanted to emphasize for 16:15 people who are caught up in this is that the abuse goes much 16:19 beyond just the initial victim and the perpetrator. It has 16:22 rings and rings and rings like a drop in a pond and the 16:27 repercussions go on for a life time. My daughter will continue 16:32 to have to deal with this even though she doesn't recall the 16:35 actual abuse. She knows it happened and her relationships 16:39 with men, with others, are affected by it. It doesn't mean 16:43 her life is over, it does not mean that a perpetrator's life 16:48 is over or an abuse victim, but there are consequences and we 16:51 to face them and ask for Jesus' strength to help us through them 16:55 and he will. Now that may sound like a cliché but by faith God 16:59 is nothing if he is not interested in healing our 17:03 problems, healing our wounds that are festering and open. 17:06 Sometimes there are scars that are left but a scar is better 17:11 than a festering wound. My hero has scars. 17:17 So you go through the counseling and, by the way, your wife 17:22 divorced you, your daughter didn't have anything to do with 17:26 you for several years. You were arrested. You are now registered 17:31 you went through all of these consequences. What do you think, 17:36 is it important that abusers are punished? 17:38 Oh, absolutely. Why? Absolutely. Well because God says so for one 17:44 Okay. God chastens those that he loves. That should always be our 17:49 example is God's word and how he deals with us. As parents, as 17:53 fathers of our children we chasten those we love. At that 17:59 time the Bible says that chastening may not be welcome, 18:03 it's grievous; but it's important. Why? Because if you 18:07 do not deal with it and have consequences the chances of 18:11 repeating the behavior are much, much higher, much higher. 18:14 Because really in your case, Wayne, when you called Child 18:20 Protective Services yourself to report yourself and you turned 18:24 yourself in to the police. But you still didn't feel that 18:29 empathy for your daughter. You were still caught up in this 18:33 selfish thing about what was going on with your life. So you 18:37 go through the chastisement, you go through the therapy and now 18:43 you understand what it is. You spent 72 days in jail. 75 days. 18:49 75 days in jail and eight years probation. Now once you've made 18:55 that step, how do you prevent a relapse? 19:00 It's by taking seriously what's called the relapse prevention 19:04 model or technique and that is something that an abuser would 19:10 learn in therapy. It's basically having physical boundaries to 19:15 abuse initially. It's very difficult to abuse a child if 19:18 the child is not in your physical presence. So that's 19:21 got to be the first thing. Okay. I do not isolate myself with 19:26 children at all, ever. It is not because I'm afraid I might abuse 19:30 them. There is not urge to abuse and that's God. That is only God 19:34 that transforms the heart and the mind and it takes time. 19:38 That took time for that to really happen. But while I was 19:41 going through that therapy process and learning these 19:44 techniques you have to have in place what you are going to do 19:50 when a situation presents itself. You cannot rely on 19:53 yourself, you cannot trust yourself. Self-distrust is 19:56 important here. You have to have an escape mechanism already 20:00 in place when situations come up like going through the grocery 20:03 store aisle. If there's a kid in the cereal aisle and there's 20:06 no one else around, I go down a different aisle. Again, not 20:09 because I'm going to do anything to the child, it's just that I 20:12 don't want to be in a situation ever for anyone to say, You know 20:17 what, that guy, I saw him over there. That's just the way life 20:21 is. We have a friend who has two daughters and a son and the son 20:25 injured himself severely. He put his are through a glass window 20:30 as they were playing around. She called us to get help. She 20:34 wanted us to watch the girls while she took the son to the 20:38 hospital. Well, Sherri wasn't home; she was actually at prison 20:42 ministry. I told this lady, I said, Well, I can't do that and 20:47 she's frantic. She's what, your not going to help me? I said 20:51 I can't do that, but what I can do is I can take you all 20:55 down to the hospital. She says, Wayne, no big deal... I can't do 21:02 it, I can't do it. So it's kind of like having a 21:10 fire plan for a fire escape plan. Exactly. You make sure 21:13 that you don't put yourself in a position where you could 21:16 either be falsely accused or, as you just got through saying, 21:19 even though you don't feel the urge, you don't want to ever put 21:22 that much trust in yourself to think that you could ever repeat 21:28 such a horrible situation. Now what about when you meet people? 21:34 Do you let people know before you're around their children? 21:38 What do you do? If I were to invite you over for Sabbath and 21:42 tell you come to our house to Sabbath and I've got small 21:45 children, what would you do with me? 21:47 Well, I would have to say no, politely, until there was a time 21:52 where we could share enough of this testimony so you'd be very 21:58 clear on where the ground rules are. This happened early on when 22:03 I was shopping for a church. You know, we said train up a 22:07 child in the way he should go, he'll not depart from it. 22:10 Well, I had some Adventist roots Christian roots. I got saved by 22:15 going through the court process. I was having Bible studies with 22:19 a gentleman who I saw in court and he shared his walk with the 22:23 Lord. We studied till I finally got plugged into a church. 22:29 I shared with the pastor that very first day and we spent four 22:33 hours and he invited me back the next Sabbath, so praise God. 22:37 Then later in the singles group I shared with the treasurer of 22:41 the church. Between those two men there was an accountability 22:45 there. All during that time I was not involved in any 22:47 children's programs or anything like that, although I did bring 22:51 my children. I mean, I had my three little children who were 22:55 with me. Over the course of that first year, we had a spiritual 22:59 gifts seminar and the church was becoming very close and sharing 23:03 their concerns and worries and problems, some of the bickering 23:07 and problems in the church, you know. I was a baby Christian. 23:11 I couldn't imagine there would be this many problems. But what 23:14 happened is a lady who shared how her son had been a victim 23:18 of child abuse and she needed help from the church. She needed 23:22 encouragement and support through this and I was strongly 23:26 moved to come up and talk next and I asked the treasurer and 23:29 the pastor. I said, I'm feeling like now is the time. There were 23:32 50 people in our church. They said, We're with you Wayne. 23:36 So I shared this testimony. I tell you, there's nothing like 23:40 the power of the Holy Spirit moving on people in forgiveness 23:45 and love, even in spite of the dirt and the filth that is 23:49 obviously there. God is in the business of healing and he 23:53 brought tremendous healing. I had 50 people to which I was 23:57 accountable just in that afternoon and that church has 24:01 been a source of accountability and love ever since. 24:05 I remember sharing this is why I can't go with you when you 24:10 invite me home after church to spend time and fellowship or 24:14 whatever. I can do this, but I need permission from probation. 24:18 I need a letter from you. There are ways to do it but I need to 24:23 share. Praise God. There was one gentleman in particular who 24:27 the very next day came to my work with his son in his hands 24:30 and he says, So what do we need to do, what do I have to do so 24:34 we can be friends. He and his wife wrote a letter to probation 24:38 and we're all friends today. The lady whose son had been 24:43 molested, you know, she heard this testimony from an abuser 24:48 and this was only the first year since I'm on probation. 24:52 I remember bawling, I was bawling, there was snot coming 24:55 out my nose. I couldn't look people in the face. They had 24:59 laid hands on me and they had prayed and we were all down 25:02 kneeling. When we were all done I said I just hope someday I can 25:06 look you all in the face again; because my eyes were closed. 25:10 It was very scary but very uplifting too at the same time. 25:14 I stood up and everybody kind of peeled away and went back to 25:18 their seats and this lady who had had the son who had been 25:22 abused came over to me and she looked me right in the face and 25:26 she grabbed my face and she said, you can look at me in the 25:30 face right now. That's healing. I didn't realize it until 25:34 afterwards but she got some healing right them too. 25:39 Well, there's so much to talk about because I know your words 25:46 do heal victims when they understand they had no part in 25:51 this. We've only got a minute left. What would you say if 25:56 you could make an appeal to someone who is needing recovery 26:01 or even a victim. What would you say to them? 26:03 What I would say is first of all for those caught up in abuse 26:09 there's no time like right now. The Holy Spirit is moving on 26:13 your heart. I don't know when this program is going to air, 26:17 but right now you're seeing it and it's not by accident. God is 26:20 calling you right now to call someone else besides God. 26:25 Be accountable to someone else, someone you trust who will help 26:29 you through this and then watch. God will deliver. He's in the 26:33 business of delivering people out of the muck and mire of 26:36 this world. There will be consequences. You may lose your 26:39 job, your marriage, you may even go to prison. That's okay. 26:42 It doesn't compare at all to hurting a child even one more 26:46 time. God will see you through it. He promises to do so. Take 26:50 a hold of his hand. I just am so thrilled how for 26:58 10 years now you all have been married. You're involved in 27:01 several ministries. God is using you and you're going to be 27:05 coming back and Wayne will be sharing when he comes back with 27:10 us how churches can help in this recovery process but also how 27:15 churches can protect themselves because churches can become 27:19 targets for offenders and predators. Thank you so much. 27:24 We look forward to you returning and Sherri thank you so much. 27:28 For those of you at home, I hope that this has been a topic that 27:33 you will pray about. It's very serious. I don't believe there's 27:39 any church out there, any denomination, that hasn't been 27:42 touched by this. So keep this matter in your prayers. 27:45 Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the 27:48 Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you 27:51 till we meet again. |
Revised 2014-12-17