Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Derry James
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000238
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00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:33 Issues and Answers. Today we're going to be talking 00:37 about, I guess, sort of a sensitive topic but yet it's 00:40 something that we will all face in our lifetime. 00:44 You know they say that there are two things that are 00:47 certain in life, death and taxes. 00:50 Well for certain in all countries everyone faces 00:53 death at some point in their life. That is what our program 00:56 is about today. Facing death, dealing with the process. 01:00 You know, the psalmist in the 23rd Psalm, the one that 01:03 is so famous, The Lord is my Shepherd 01:06 I shall not want. He said in verse 4: 01:08 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of 01:12 death I will fear no evil for thy rod and thy staff 01:15 they comfort me. We're going to be talking with 01:18 someone today who has a lot of experience in dealing 01:22 with the death process, helping families go through the 01:26 death process. It is my great joy to welcome Derry James 01:31 back to our program. Derry has a doctorate in ministry 01:35 and she is also a board certified chaplain. 01:38 Derry, you're working as a chaplain even now at a 01:43 hospital aren't you? That's true. And that's in what city? 01:46 Grass Valley, California, and I do some supplemental work 01:50 in Sacramento at a metropolitan hospital there as well. 01:53 I'm so glad that you've come back. We've been talking 01:56 with you over the last few weeks about several different 02:00 topics but today we thought we would draw on your 02:04 expertise, your experience, in facing the death process 02:09 so that we might encourage people at home who I know 02:13 that you have told me that many times when people are 02:17 facing death whether it be the individual or the family 02:21 member who has someone going through this that there are 02:24 a lot of spiritual questions that come up. What are 02:27 some of the most common ones? 02:28 When we are reviewing our life, Shelley, we wonder whether 02:34 our life was worth it and we sometimes wonder if 02:38 we've made a contribution to those around us. 02:42 We're looking at two different sides of this really. 02:46 I'm talking now from the patient's perspective and 02:50 some of the questions that they go through. 02:52 Probably one of the first questions that comes to almost 02:57 any person when they find out that they are in process of 03:01 dying or they have a life- threatening disease is 03:05 Oh God, why me? Why this? Why now? 03:08 Or what did I do to deserve this? 03:11 or is this a punishment? or have you 03:15 withdrawn yourself from me God? Or if there's a God why 03:20 would he allow this to happen? All these different questions 03:24 start coming to a person's mind until they are just 03:27 agonizing sometimes about those. Especially if they 03:31 have guilt in their life and unconfessed sins, 03:33 things that they haven't taken care of. 03:36 Then they agonize with that even more. 03:38 To me I think the most difficult thing 03:43 to go through, and see if this has been your 03:48 experience, is if you're working with a family 03:53 who has a young child who is facing death. 03:57 I would imagine that as a mother or a father it's 04:00 so unnatural for your child to go before you that 04:03 that must be one of the most difficult times in anyone's 04:07 life. It is. Of course it is. 04:09 And to see your child suffer is a horrible thing. 04:14 You know we feel all that and we have this child and 04:19 we have expectations of their life and we think of all 04:23 these things in the future that they are not going 04:27 to be able to do or participate in and our heart 04:30 is wrenched as well as we think of a child that is going 04:34 through a death process. I'd like to turn that around 04:39 though as well, Shelley. When an adult, when a parent 04:43 is going through a dying process sometimes the child 04:48 is left out of that process. We are so focused maybe on 04:52 helping one another as adults that we forget the 04:55 suffering of the child. The child that is old enough to 04:59 love is old enough to grieve and old enough to walk 05:04 through this and they are hurting as well with the 05:09 whole situation. So as you work through first the 05:14 cognition that we are about to face death whether that 05:18 "about to face" in a terminal disease is a month or a 05:22 year but as you begin that process you also begin the 05:26 grieving process. You begin to wonder whether or not 05:30 God has abandoned you and you wonder how this is 05:33 going to be going for you over this next period of time. 05:37 Those are spiritual issues that your heart begins to 05:41 struggle with. Where are you God? Why are you letting 05:45 this happen to me? 05:46 You know what you said just really grabbed me when 05:49 you said that if a child is old enough to love they are 05:53 old enough to grieve. How do you explain the meaning 05:57 of death to a child, a young child? 06:01 That's a very difficult thing because you certainly don't 06:04 want to use the wrong terminology. You don't want 06:09 to say things like... Well let me put it this way. 06:12 I need to back up because of course as a chaplain I 06:16 represent multiple faiths and some faiths believe that 06:20 when you die you immediately go to heaven. 06:22 In those faith groups, the tendency or the 06:28 temptation to say to a child 06:30 is well God wants Uncle Jim, or the angels need them. 06:35 Or if the child is ill, Jesus needs another angel in 06:41 heaven. God's taking her because they are so good, 06:47 which sets a child up for well if God's going to take me 06:50 I'm going to be bad and then you have behavioral 06:53 habits that begin forming and the child lives in fear 06:56 that if they are a good person they are going to die. 06:59 Or if they think that God is taking their mother because 07:02 he just needed someone else up there in heaven to be 07:05 with him. They could be thinking God's a very selfish person 07:09 when he's got all these people and I've only got one mama. 07:13 Or, another thing that happens to children is, you know how 07:16 we discipline our children and sometimes the children will get 07:19 very angry and the little thoughts will go through their 07:23 head, oh I hate you, or oh I wish you were dead and suddenly 07:26 they think that maybe their wish is being fulfilled and it's 07:29 their fault that their parent is dying. So those are all 07:33 difficult things that need to be addressed with children. 07:38 But I'd like to get back into some other issues, Shelley, 07:43 because there's so much to cover with this subject. 07:46 There are so many questions that an individual goes 07:49 through as they face death and that families go through. 07:54 Sometimes family members can think God is punishing me 07:58 because this other family member is dying. Or if I had 08:02 just been a better husband, if I'd just been a better 08:05 wife God wouldn't be taking this person from me. 08:08 So there are all kinds of 08:10 reactions of guilt or shame or 08:13 self-conflict that go on 08:17 as they are walking through 08:21 this whole idea of death. Then you have the whole process 08:26 of death itself and what is this journey going to be like? 08:31 What do I have to endure and how much pain will I 08:33 have to bear and will I be able to live through this? 08:37 People that maybe haven't had a good relationship 08:41 have the social emotional questions in their mind of 08:47 will my family be glad I'm gone? Will they even 08:52 miss me? Do I have time to make it up to them? Do I have 08:56 time to leave them with a good memory? Or you have the 09:00 family members that get angry with the patient 09:04 because they're sick. Like how could you do this to me? 09:06 How could you abandon me? How could you leave me? 09:09 How dare you die. How can I survive alone? How can I 09:12 run the house, how can I take care... how can I pay 09:14 all the bills? How can I? How can I? How can I? 09:19 I think of a friend whose husband has throat 09:22 cancer who smokes and he continued to smoke even 09:26 after his throat cancer. Do you especially see that 09:30 in people who feel that the one who is dying has done 09:35 something to bring on their own death. Maybe they 09:39 were a motorcycle rider and the wife is thinking 09:42 I asked you not to get that motor cycle because 09:45 I knew this was going to happen. Do you see that 09:49 more when people are putting the blame on 09:51 someone because the person who's dying has 09:54 actually either contributed to their death by 09:57 smoking or unhealthy habits or of recklessness? 10:01 Oh, absolutely. The thing that that does instead of 10:05 leaving the survivor with loving memories, it 10:09 leaves them sometime with bitterness and resentment 10:13 that is very, very hard for people to overcome 10:17 particularly if they don't know Jesus. I don't 10:20 want to get off the track here but you bring up 10:23 motorcycle riders. I'll tell you, Shelley, you just 10:26 cannot imagine the horrible deaths that we 10:30 witness all the time because of people on 10:33 motorcycles. That has got to be a devil's tool. 10:38 Sorry but it's just horrible, horrible deaths, 10:41 suffering and disabilities from that; just horrible. 10:45 I think, Shelley, that probably we need 10:51 to help our listening audience, our viewers, 10:56 know how they can help walk along side of a 11:01 person that is going through the dying 11:06 process, because sometimes when we find out 11:08 that someone is dying or facing death it's a 11:10 little uncomfortable to be around them. 11:12 We don't always know what to do. We don't 11:15 know how to help. We may think well I'll bring 11:17 them a meal or I'll assist them that way and 11:20 that's all very important but we don't like to 11:24 talk about it. We pretend it's not there. I think 11:27 it's important for us to be able to know that 11:30 it's all right to be open about it. In fact, it 11:34 frees the family. Instead of living in this little 11:38 capsulation of pretense, this little bubble that 11:41 we can't go there, we can't talk about it, it 11:43 actually frees them to be able to discuss it 11:46 openly and acknowledge where they are in the 11:49 process and what their legitimate needs are. 11:52 So the best thing a person can do is to 11:55 absolutely be themselves with these people. 11:58 Let me ask you a question. What is coming to 12:02 my mind is I'm a very direct person. The Lord 12:07 generally graces me with tact but I was thinking 12:11 of two instances. One was an elderly woman at 12:16 our church that we knew she was dying and I 12:19 would talk with her very openly about it and 12:22 she enjoyed that because she said most people 12:25 keep trying to deny my death. But then on the 12:29 other hand with my mother-in-law my 12:34 sister-in-law couldn't accept the fact that 12:37 she was dying so to try to discuss is openly in 12:41 the family was met with a lot of resistance. 12:45 How do you know when to be open and when 12:50 to back off? It takes a lot of discernment. 12:56 It takes a lot of wisdom. 12:57 Does it take some testing of the waters to know 13:00 when to put your toe in the water and bring it 13:03 back. Well it does that, 13:05 But, Shelley, I'm back to my favorite subject 13:08 as you know. If you're walking with God and 13:11 you're totally dependent upon him and you ask 13:14 God to speak through you and work through you, 13:17 God's going to tell you when to be quiet and when 13:20 to speak. That really is a prayer of mine often 13:23 is Lord help me know when to speak and when 13:26 to be silent. Would it be fair to say to 13:29 someone who's watching who may be facing this 13:32 process themself that it would be liberating to 13:35 them if they're not bothered by speaking 13:38 about it, it would be liberating to others if 13:41 the one who's dying would actually say it's 13:44 okay if we talk about this? 13:45 Very good point, very good point. Because in 13:49 doing so you will help a person not only be 13:52 themselves around you but be able to show you 13:55 their own human kindnesses. They'll be able to give 14:00 you the opportunity to speak about it and help 14:04 them understand exactly where you are with it. 14:08 Is it okay ever, I think I know the answer to this, 14:13 but I'm just going to pose the question, in your 14:17 opinion is it okay to be humorous around someone 14:22 who is dying? Absolutely. See that would be my 14:26 answer. Yes absolutely. But again it's testing the 14:31 water and there's a time and place for everything. 14:34 Obviously if the person is not open to that at the 14:38 moment that's not a place you want to go. 14:40 But you don't have to be all morbid and all 14:43 serious. They still are alive, they're still living. 14:46 Some of the greatest things you can do with 14:49 that person is affirm them. That can be reviewing 14:52 the memories with them, some of the fun times 14:55 and affirming them how they have made a mark on 14:58 your life and going so far as to let them know how 15:02 and why you're going to miss them. It's okay if 15:06 you cry. You know tears are a language everybody 15:09 understands. It's nice to know that you're loved 15:13 that much and that you will be missed. If everybody 15:16 tries to put on this false face of buoying you up all 15:18 the time you're going to think I wonder if anybody 15:21 is going to miss me. So to let a person know that 15:23 you love them so much and that there's going to 15:26 be a void in your life once they're gone is 15:28 critical to tell them. Another critical thing to do 15:32 of course, and I think we've talked about this before 15:35 but that reconciliation peace, if things are not okay 15:39 between you this is a time to make sure and get 15:42 everything straight; to not only ask for forgiveness 15:46 but to offer forgiveness so that the person that is 15:49 going through the death process can have peace 15:52 of mind and heart and that the person left living does 15:56 not have regrets that they harbored grudges or 16:00 problems. You know, when my mother-in-law 16:03 who I was very close with, she was a precious 16:07 saintly woman, and she had 16:11 told me, oh I don't know, some years before 16:15 that one of her dreams was that before she died she 16:19 wanted to crush rose petals on her bed and sleep on 16:24 rose petals. So when I knew that she was facing her 16:29 last days, I ordered her four dozen roses. 16:32 So when they came to the house I told her let's crush 16:36 these petals and do this. You know, I think sometimes 16:41 my personal opinion is sometimes we wait to express 16:46 our love in demonstrative ways till after the death 16:50 and it's something that I believe that if you can 16:54 fulfill some small dream of someone to give 16:57 something. Send them flowers before the funeral. 17:00 Absolutely. You know I was thinking it would be great 17:03 to have a memorial service for everybody before they 17:06 die then you would know what people thought of you. 17:08 It would either affirm you or give you a chance to 17:11 change their opinion before your last breath. 17:13 I'd talk a minute, Shelley, while we have a little time 17:18 left about the person that is actually dying and the 17:23 grieving process they go through, not only for their 17:27 own life but for the things they're going to miss in 17:32 the life of those they love. I'm a Grandma 17:36 and I would grieve the fact that I didn't see my 17:41 grandsons grow up and get to graduate or that I 17:44 would be able to witness their wedding, those kind 17:47 of things. So I would like to offer as an incentive to 17:52 our people that may be facing death or to just tuck 17:57 in the back of their minds that if that ever happens 18:00 or you're in a position where that is going on with 18:04 you or any number of other circumstances where 18:07 you wish you could be part of that you might either 18:11 write a letter yourself or dictate a letter that 18:14 could be read at your grandchild's graduation for 18:17 example from grandma. I wish I was there but I am 18:21 proud of you that you made it or I wish I could see 18:25 you in your wedding dress. But this love gift that 18:29 says I'm thinking of you and I wish I were there. 18:32 Then offer even your blessing, maybe a prayer of 18:36 blessing in the letter. That's kind of an assignment 18:40 that I will give to some of our patients that are in 18:45 maybe the last month or the final weeks of dying. 18:49 It helps them get a little bit out of themselves and 18:54 it helps them do something productive and it also is 18:57 a rich gift for the family too. 19:02 It would be releasing that painful emotion in you 19:05 but what a wonderful love gift to the family. 19:08 Yes absolutely. Then the other thing that comes 19:12 to my mind right now as we are talking is that we 19:16 have people in the hospital that have been struggling 19:19 with their relationship with God or maybe they left 19:23 a church years ago and they didn't reconcile the 19:26 differences or problems that they had and they have 19:30 been angry at the church. Maybe they've never 19:33 chosen to follow God but suddenly here they are 19:36 and they're at the very door of death and they 19:39 think where am I going from here? Suddenly that 19:43 becomes an important question to them. 19:44 In all of those cases, and probably others, that 19:47 you may be thinking of or that could come to mind, 19:50 the main question underlying all of that is 19:54 can I accept Jesus Christ right now and how dare 19:58 I accept Jesus Christ with my last breath when I 20:02 didn't live for him? I just want to affirm and 20:06 acknowledge the fact that Jesus dies for us and 20:09 that yes it would have been a good thing if we 20:11 had given our whole life to God and allowed him 20:15 to use us and bless us but if we did not, if we've 20:18 blown our whole life and we're up to the end, if 20:21 we truly are reaching out and we want Jesus, 20:24 Jesus would rather have that deathbed confession 20:27 of faith so that we can spend eternity with him 20:30 that to lose us. Thief on the cross. Exactly. 20:35 People are sometimes reluctant to do that 20:39 even though they may want to because they don't 20:41 feel like they deserve the gift of eternal life or 20:44 because they feel like they shouldn't ask at this 20:48 late date. I just want to reassure everyone that 20:52 Jesus love is so great and so all-encompassing that 20:56 he would rather have that than not have them at all. 21:00 As a friend, I've had to support a number of friends 21:04 who've lost a spouse or a child or maybe a mother 21:08 or a father. What are some of the best things that 21:12 we can do as friends when we have people within 21:16 our church or others who are going through this? 21:19 They are experiencing a death in the family or 21:22 perhaps even they are... Are there certain 21:24 rituals that we can do to help support somebody 21:28 that's facing this? Well as far as a ritual goes 21:32 the actual person that is dying in many traditions 21:36 or most traditions that dying person wants some 21:39 kind of an anointing prayer. That would be a 21:42 ritual or maybe a communion Eucharistic service 21:46 where they have the communion cup and bread, 21:49 those kind of things. Those would be the more 21:53 spiritual symbolisms and rituals. As far as us 21:57 coming along side and supporting them, I think 21:59 the best thing we can do is let them know, I'm 22:02 here for you. I just want to be your 24-hour friend 22:05 for right now and if you need me, if you need to 22:09 call and cry, if you need to scream, whatever you 22:12 need, I just want to be here for you. I want to be 22:16 your sounding board. I want to support you through 22:19 this. I want you to know I'll be upholding you in 22:22 prayer. I'll be along side for you. For the whole 22:25 family, one of the richest gifts we can give them 22:28 besides having prayer with them and letting them 22:30 know they're not being forgotten is that memory 22:34 review that we've already talked about. For our 22:37 families before we get to that point, and this is 22:41 a subject nobody really likes to talk about, 22:43 thankfully we're a little more open about it now 22:46 in our culture but one of the greatest gifts we 22:49 can give our families is to have open discussions 22:52 about this even before we're facing death where 22:56 we come to an agreement on advanced care planning 23:01 and we share our wills and wishes about memorial 23:05 service, funerals, cremation, how we want to be 23:09 dealt with after our death, but we have this openly 23:13 so we come to a joint understanding. Some of 23:17 the most painful things that we go through at the 23:19 hospital is when there has been no previous 23:22 discussion. For example, we have people on life 23:25 support and family members have to make those 23:28 tough decisions whether of not to leave them on 23:31 life support or remove that life support, particularly 23:34 when there are questions of brain damage and so on. 23:38 Because it's never been talked about they don't 23:41 know what the patient would really want. 23:43 Sometimes you get feuding within the family or 23:47 sometimes you have one person say you decide, 23:49 you decide and so all the decisions are on that 23:54 person. Shelley, they have so much then to bear 23:58 the rest of their life. Sometimes guilt, questions, 24:01 if I hadn't made that decision, if I'd gone the other 24:04 way what would have happened? But if people 24:08 will take the time to do advance care planning and 24:11 talk to their families and be in agreement, then 24:15 none of the fighting happens in the family, 24:17 there's no confusion, there's no question. 24:20 It's simple a matter of this is what mom wanted 24:23 and whether we want it or not we need to abide 24:27 by mom's desires. This was her life and this is how 24:31 she wanted her life to end. 24:32 You know, I just want to pitch this idea in here 24:37 as well. It's that I try to teach when I go out 24:40 and talk to groups and something similar to this 24:43 comes up, I try to teach everyone that if you're 24:47 over the age of 18 you should have a will. 24:50 If you have a child, you should have a will. 24:53 People think that they don't need a will when 24:56 they're young, but we don't know what's going to 25:00 happen. Even if you're 18 years old and you have 25:02 nothing in the bank, you may have an insurance 25:06 policy on your life and without a will, I've been 25:09 through so much counseling where I've been 25:12 counseling people who have had a parent or someone 25:17 die without a will and there's a terrible division in 25:22 the family afterwards. I've seen close families 25:25 be torn apart over those type of things or when 25:28 they don't know where a child is going to be left. 25:33 Shelley, you asked a minute ago how we can 25:37 come along side of the family. I just would like to read 25:41 this poem because I think it's kind of all-encompassing. 25:44 It says: You think you understand. Don't tell me that 25:47 you understand. Don't tell me that you know, don't 25:51 tell me that I will survive, how I will surely grow. 25:54 Don't tell me that this is just a test, that I am 25:57 truly blessed, that I am chosen for this task apart 26:01 from all the rest. Don't come to me with answers 26:04 that can only come from me. Don't tell me how my 26:08 grief will pass, that I will soon be free. Don't 26:12 stand in pious judgment of the bonds I must untie. 26:16 Don't tell me how to suffer, and don't tell me how to 26:19 cry. My life is filled with selfishness. My pain is all 26:23 I see, but I need you, I need your love 26:26 unconditionally. Accept me in my ups and downs. 26:31 I need someone to share. Just hold my hand and 26:36 let me cry and say My friend, I care. 26:41 How true. And God says in scripture that 26:45 God will be our guide even unto death. If we turn 26:50 to Revelation 2:10, Shelley, it says: Be faithful unto 26:55 death and I will give you the crown of life. 26:58 Amen. And he says in Isaiah 57:1-2: The righteous 27:03 man perishes and no one lays it to heart. Merciful 27:07 and devout men are taken away with no one considering 27:11 that the uncompromisingly upright and godly person 27:15 is taken away from the calamity and evil to come. 27:18 He in death enters into peace, they rest in their 27:21 beds; each one who walks straight and upright in his 27:26 uprightness. I believe that many times we don't 27:28 understand why God doesn't answer our prayer. He 27:31 has our eternal benefit in mind. So God knows the 27:34 end from the beginning. Derry, thank you so much 27:37 for being here today. Our time is all gone again. 27:40 I just want to thank you for joining us and I pray 27:44 that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of 27:47 the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit 27:50 will be with you today and unto death. 27:53 Join us again next time. |
Revised 2014-12-17