Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Richard D'Avanzo
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000222
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00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn, and welcome to Issues and Answers.
00:32 I know you are going to enjoy today's program, 00:35 because we are gonna be talking about forgiveness 00:38 and the process of forgiveness, what is it? What isn't it? 00:43 I am gonna start with the scripture 00:45 that you might guess that I am going to, it is in Matthew 6 00:49 and I am gonna begin in verse 14, 00:51 this is the Lord Jesus speaking and he says, 00:55 if you forgive people their trespasses, 00:59 in another words their reckless and willful sins 01:02 and if you will forgive them by leaving them, 01:04 letting them go, and giving up your resentment. 01:09 If you'll forgive them he says, 01:10 your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 01:14 But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, 01:17 neither will the Father forgive you your trespasses. 01:21 See why this program is so important 01:25 and I want to welcome back for a second time, 01:28 our special guest and that is Dr. Richard D'Avanzo. 01:33 Thank you. Dr. D'Avanzo, good to have you here. 01:35 And I am having trouble talking. You know you are the, 01:40 you are a PhD. in Christian psychology, 01:43 that you would back to school at the age of 62, 01:46 yeah, that so amazing. 01:48 And you are a part time professor 01:50 at the Florida Christian University, yeah. 01:53 You are also the author of a wonderful book 01:55 When the Vow Breaks, yes. 01:57 And I like the play on words When the Vow Breaks 02:01 instead of when the vow breaks. 02:03 We discussed in the last program when you were age 61, 02:08 your wife of nearly 35 years came to you 02:11 and said, I want a divorce. 02:13 Yeah, we're married about 35 years, yeah. 02:16 Turned your world upside down didn't it? 02:19 It sure did, it was a shock, 02:23 nothing can be a bigger shock to me, nothing, nothing. 02:26 One thing that I want be sure 02:29 that I bring up that we covered in our last program, yeah, yeah. 02:34 You went through great pain, a great since of loss, yes, 02:39 you just praying to the Lord saying, 02:42 just take me now, I just as soon die. 02:44 You already had a close relationship, yes, 02:46 but you made the comment and you counseled people 02:50 when you are going through this don't waste the pain, 02:55 yes, what do you mean? 02:57 Well, God can do certain things when the arrogance 03:01 of our self-centeredness is down and out of the way. 03:06 He can do things with us when we don't get in the way. 03:10 In other words, the pain drives you to the point 03:13 where I just feel helpless, I can't do it myself. 03:17 I don't have anything in me that can solve this problem, 03:21 this dilemma, but God can. 03:26 And now I have opened the gate for God to come in. 03:32 The pain was the thing that let me say that. 03:37 So don't let that pain be wasted, 03:39 say that and then begin to work with God. 03:42 God will then give you the love and the peace, 03:46 kindness, the gentleness, the fruit of the Holy Spirit. 03:49 Yes. So you learned to embrace your pain, 03:52 and embracing your pain, 03:54 God taught you all about the forgiveness. Yes. 03:57 overtime, it's not a straight up, 03:59 its look up and down, but it's there, 04:04 the trend is up and God is always there, 04:07 he never lets us go. Amen. 04:11 we're gonna talk today about the process that God led you through 04:14 I've got some points here you from your book, yeah, 04:17 and I thought perhaps in understanding 04:19 the importance of forgiveness. 04:21 The easiest way would be just to go point by point 04:23 through your book and let you discuss it, 04:25 okay, elaborate on it, yes. 04:27 You said in your book what forgiveness is not. 04:29 Forgiveness doesn't mean we condone 04:31 the wrongs done to us anymore 04:34 then God condones our sins when He forgives us, yeah. 04:38 You know forgiveness is not saying 04:41 what you did to me is okay. 04:44 You now, it just, it doesn't say I condone it, 04:48 it's all right, the hurts of pain I went through. 04:52 No, that's not forgiveness. 04:54 Whether if someone has been abused or, 04:57 yeah, there's been infertility, whatever it is. Right. 04:59 it's not saying it was okay, 05:01 so that's important to understand that. 05:03 And of course we get it from Jesus, 05:05 because when we sin so many times, 05:07 and I look back at my life and God says, well, it's okay, 05:13 I forgive you, I forgive you. 05:17 And so when his spirit is living in us, 05:22 we have that same attitude. 05:25 Now that's not easy, that's very hard, 05:27 we're gonna talk more about that yeah. 05:29 And especially, we, what you're saying is, 05:31 when God forgives us it's, He is not condoning our behavior, 05:37 He is not saying it was okay for you to do those things, right 05:41 So, lets get on into little bit more, yeah, 05:43 we'll uncover this a little more. Okay, 05:46 the second point is that you made, 05:47 forgiveness isn't a sign of weakness but our commitment 05:52 to follow the Lord by the strength the Holy Spirit in us. 05:56 See, we just got through talking about that, 05:58 we just said that the spirit is living in me. 06:00 So I make a choice to say Lord no matter what, 06:05 I am going to follow what you want me to do. 06:09 Not my Will, but your Will. 06:12 You want me to forgive because you are a God of love 06:16 and you love me with everlasting love. 06:19 And so everything you want me to do, 06:21 it's for the best, no question about it. 06:25 You used an interesting word, choice. 06:28 Forgiveness is a choice that we make, 06:31 a decision that we make to follow God's will, right, 06:34 and it doesn't mean that we're gonna just lay down 06:36 and be a doormat for someone. Right, right. 06:38 Okay, I like that, let's go on because I think 06:41 you're gonna really get a clear picture each point we go over. 06:46 You said forgiveness isn't based upon feelings, 06:49 because we're never going to feel like forgiving. 06:52 It's our choice to follow the will of God, no matter what, 06:55 because we are trusting in God who loves us deeply. 07:00 Yeah feelings, too many times we've rely on feelings you know. 07:04 Feelings have the strength of steel, 07:09 yes, but they crack like crystal when difficulties come in. 07:13 And so you don't want to judge or rely on feelings, 07:17 feelings are unreliable. 07:20 And when you're experiencing pain 07:24 and rejection and all of that, your feelings. 07:28 Emotions are overwhelming many times 07:32 and so they're not trustworthy. 07:34 And so what we do is, we don't say, 07:36 well I don't feel like forgiving. 07:39 Well, don't ever think you will, no one ever feels like it. 07:44 I'm doing it because I made a choice, 07:46 because God living in me has given me the strength to say, 07:50 I will do it because you said so Lord, and you know what's best. 07:55 All right, this one, 07:57 forgiveness doesn't mean that I will instantly forget. 08:02 It means that I won't dwell upon the wrongs done to me. 08:05 And you quoted First Corinthians 13:5, right, 08:08 that tell us that those who walk in God's love 08:11 keep no records if wrong, yes. 08:13 But you know you said here, 08:15 it doesn't mean we instantly forget, 08:16 do we really ever forget? 08:18 Well, its a little bit like the stronger forgiveness gets, 08:24 you see forgiveness is almost a process, 08:26 I mean you make a decision to forgive, 08:28 but it's a process that continues on 08:31 and it strengthens with time. 08:33 And as God's grace fills us and replaces that anguish 08:38 that we have. Forgetness, we begin to forget and slowly. 08:45 You know, I wanna, let me see if you agree with this. 08:48 What I think is that, greater the forgiveness, 08:52 its not that you ever totally forget, 08:55 yeah, but if ever comes back up, 08:56 there is none of that emotion and pain involved with it. 09:00 No bitterness, no resentment, 09:01 you're just dealing with it, it's just a fact of life. 09:04 Okay, okay, I like that. 09:06 And another point you made was, 09:08 forgiveness doesn't mean you necessarily 09:10 trust the other person right away. 09:13 Trust may take a long time to reestablish. Yes, 09:16 trust is earned, you know if somebody has somebody, 09:20 their partner was unfaithful, I mean that is long time, 09:25 a lot of time or the person lied. 09:29 You know, I mean there are so many things that 09:32 just because you forgive doesn't mean that, 09:36 that you are gonna be able to say, 09:38 oh well, everything is okay now. 09:41 I think this you know I like these points because, 09:44 yeah, don't you think this is gonna help us learn 09:46 how to be more of forgiving nature 09:49 and yet without being taken advantage of, yes. 09:53 Alright, the sixth point you make here is, 09:55 Forgiveness is not reconciliation, 09:58 it precedes reconciliation. 10:01 But forgiveness doesn't require remarriage. 10:05 So we're looking at this in the context of divorce. 10:08 Yeah, its all...We look at a three step process, 10:12 forgiveness is non-negotiable for a Christian. 10:16 It eventually has to take place. The sooner the better. Yes, 10:20 absolutely, by the power of God. Absolutely. 10:24 You are not gonna do it under your own strength. 10:26 So, forgiveness goes there. 10:28 Now if there is any opportunities for reconciliation 10:32 that forgiveness has to be there 10:34 before reconciliation takes place. 10:37 Before reconciliation can be, before remarriage can take place 10:44 reconciliation has to take place. So you have forgiveness, 10:47 reconciliation, reconciliation is a peaceful relationship. 10:50 One of harmony together, that mean you are married, 10:54 you don't remarry necessarily, but there is harmony 10:56 and is very important later on we talk about children. 11:00 Yeah, so then remarriage can take place if it's appropriate. 11:05 And you know it occurs to me, let me ask you this question. 11:09 Let's say there is forgiveness and even reconciliation in that, 11:12 perhaps someone, their spouse has been unfaithful. Yeah. 11:17 had affairs, yeah maybe multiple affairs, sure. 11:20 And so the Christian, the divorced person 11:24 who is a Christian must forgive them, 11:27 they might be reconciled to them. 11:28 In the fact that maybe they're the parent of their children, 11:31 sure, they get together on certain dates 11:34 and things to celebrate with the children and go to, 11:37 right, civil public, things with them. 11:42 But, because they don't have to trust them to forgive them, 11:47 reconciliation doesn't even mean that 11:49 remarriage is required, it's not always required. 11:53 And it's not required, it is something 11:57 that I think God would like to see happen if it's possible, 12:00 okay. But you as an individual I know obligation. 12:05 Would you marry someone that you didn't trust? 12:08 I would have to have a reconciliation process 12:11 long enough that, that I did trust, 12:13 okay, that's why I say it takes a long time. 12:16 That's the point I wanted to get across, yeah. 12:19 Number seven, you said, forgiveness doesn't require 12:22 any action from the person who has wronged us. 12:26 In other words, I say okay Lord, 12:30 I believe that forgiveness is the right thing to do 12:34 and you want me to do it. And I am gonna do it, 12:37 and I go ahead and I ask for forgiveness 12:39 and I can ask forgiveness in many different ways, 12:42 we'll talk about that later. 12:44 But and then the person is negative and I get all upset. 12:52 She didn't even appreciate or he didn't respond 12:56 or they didn't answer. 12:59 Look, forgiveness doesn't require 13:01 any particular kind of response. 13:05 You are not doing it for their benefit, 13:07 you are doing it because God wanted me to. 13:09 Yes. Okay, and there response is what God may deal with. 13:16 I had a lady once who came up to me and she said 13:18 oh, yes, you know the Bible says, 13:21 Jesus says to love your enemies, 13:23 pray for those who persecute you. Yeah. 13:25 And by this we are heaping burning coals upon their heads. 13:28 She said, I am really praying, 13:30 because I want lots of burning coal upon their head. 13:33 And somehow she had the idea that 13:35 this was some kind of punishment 13:37 and for those who may not know in Jesus day, 13:40 there was a practice by a certain sect that 13:44 when they were walking in repentance, 13:47 they would put this flat plate on their head 13:51 and put burning coals on it, to show that they were repentant. 13:55 So, what Jesus was saying is that by loving 13:58 and forgiving those who are enemies, 14:01 we actually may bring them to repentance, yes, yes, so... 14:05 But that's between God, that's between God, yeah. 14:07 And God doesn't ask us to forgive others for their benefit 14:12 he asks us for our benefit, 14:14 so that he can continue to work in us. 14:16 Yes, because that's the only the way 14:17 the fullness of the Holy Spirit can be within us. 14:20 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. 14:22 Okay, so that's what forgiveness is now, 14:24 let see what Dr. D'Angelo says forgiveness is, 14:29 did I say that, D' Avanzo, I knew I said that wrong. 14:32 What forgiveness is, 14:35 forgiveness is my decision to walk with God. 14:39 Plan and simple number one, God wants me to do it, 14:43 I am doing it, I am not, I don't feel like it, 14:48 I may not even want to. 14:52 I may not even be willing to 14:55 and so I may have to pray Lord, 14:57 help me to be willing to be willing 15:01 Amen, Lord, I am willing to be made willing. 15:04 He will meet us wherever we are. 15:06 See, it doesn't make any difference, 15:07 well I'm not good enough to get, 15:09 no, no, God goes wherever you are. 15:12 You know and Philippians 2:13 says that 15:15 it's God who works in us to will 15:17 and to act according to his purpose. Amen, 15:19 I like this. All right you also said forgiveness is giving up 15:24 my desire to punish the person who has hurt me. 15:28 The Lord tells me in Romans 12:19, 15:31 "It is mine to avenge; I will repay." 15:34 Yes, see, he says to me, he said look Richard, 15:36 you keep out of this, anything you do is gonna mess it up. 15:40 You can't do it, 15:42 I will take care of how to deal with the your Ex, 15:46 he says your job is just to ask for forgiveness. 15:50 For the wrongs that you did to her 15:52 and you forgive her for the wrong she did to you. 15:57 Amen, in other words, don't try to be God in this matter. 16:01 Yes, he doesn't need any help. 16:04 Okay, forgiveness is real when I can sincerely 16:08 wish good for the person who has wronged me. 16:11 I like this point. Christ teaches us to pray 16:14 for those who persecute you, Matthew 5:44. 16:17 Yes, yes, you know that's a sure sign 16:20 that forgiveness is taking place, 16:22 when you can really sincerely begin to pray 16:25 for the well being of the person who maybe hurt you. 16:28 Yeah, there is only one person in my entirely life 16:32 that I felt hatred toward and I won't go into the story, 16:35 but I will say this. 16:37 The Lord started me off with Matthew 6:14 and 15 16:41 telling me I had to forgive and I said Lord, 16:44 I don't want to, yeah, I don't know how to, yeah, 16:46 and the Lord led me to pray for their salvation, 16:49 and did you know I didn't want to pray for their salvation. 16:52 I would have just assumed that they had spent, 16:55 gone somewhere else. And I just obeyed 17:00 and I started praying for their salvation, 17:02 you know what pretty, you can't pray for someone salvation too 17:05 long before you actually do begin to experience forgiveness. 17:09 The Holy Spirit, begins to work, yeah. 17:12 And you know you mentioned, you know some people, 17:16 to just quickly clear that up. 17:19 See I can't, I can't ask for forgiveness because 17:22 my acts is detonating or it is hostile. 17:27 Okay and I can get in their presence 17:29 without harm maybe coming in. 17:32 Well, then you do it, perhaps by letter or by phone, 17:37 if a person is dead then you just make it to God. 17:41 Okay, but the important thing is that you do 17:44 it to the person if they're living, 17:47 one way or another by phone, by letter or by in person. 17:51 So, you're saying it's important for you to tell the person, 17:56 yes, that you forgive them. 17:58 Yeah, it's just not saying, you're not saying to God, 18:00 oh! Lord, forgive me for hurting my Ex in this way 18:04 and that way and I forgive them for hurting me 18:06 in this way and that way. 18:07 That what it's about, it's my act of making contact 18:11 with that person in some form or another, 18:15 it's a lot of power. 18:17 Then after we do that, God says, 18:19 now you come to me and ask for forgiveness, 18:22 because when you hurt my creation, you hurt me. 18:29 I'm not sure I have wrote this man a letter, 18:31 I'm thinking about this, okay. 18:34 Number four, forgiveness is a non-negotiable requirement 18:39 for every believer. Jesus teaches us, 18:42 if you forgive men when they sin against you, 18:44 your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 18:46 But if you do not forgive men their sins, 18:48 your Father will not forgive your sins that's Matthew 6:14-15 18:52 Yeah, there is wallowing there, 18:54 you just you can waffle in that one, yeah. 18:57 I mean it's so plain, 18:58 but is plain because God loves us so much, 19:01 he know that unforgiveness is gonna cause bitterness 19:04 and resentment in us 19:06 and it's gonna it is eat us up like a cancer. 19:10 And so it's great love for us says, this is must, 19:13 so I can give you something better, 19:15 the fruit of the Holy Spirit. 19:17 Amen, and I like the point that you brought out from 19:20 Philippians 4:13, yeah, because so many people will say, 19:23 I don't have the strength, I can't do this, 19:26 yeah, I can't forgive. But Philippians 4:13 says, 19:29 you can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens you 19:33 Yes, and that's true. Amen, it is. 19:36 All right, I like this point that you made in your book, 19:40 forgiving is a blessing from God to us 19:44 and in the case that your book is on divorce, 19:47 so is you are saying it's a blessing from God to us 19:50 to our former spouse and even to our children. Yes, 19:53 you see, it's not just one sided, because it can bless, 19:58 you don't know where that other person is, 20:00 God knows and that maybe just the tool 20:03 that God needs to bring that person 20:07 into a closer relationship. Amen. 20:09 But I can guarantee you, our forgiveness if we have children 20:14 will be the greatest blessing to them, amen. 20:17 And we're gonna talk about this I guess 20:19 in another program about children and divorce, yes, 20:21 and this pivotal, because our forgiveness releases us 20:25 from many bitterness and resentment and 20:29 our children need to hear that because that's their parent. 20:32 Amen, amen. But I liked that you said here 20:37 when you said forgiveness is a blessing from God to us. 20:41 Its not really an power you know Romans 5:5, 20:44 it says that it is God who pours His love into our hearts 20:50 by His Holy Spirit, right, 20:52 we are capable in our own power to love and forgive others. 20:57 We have to go to the Lord and say, 20:59 Lord pour your love into my heart for them 21:01 and you cause me to forgiveness, yes, yes, 21:04 that's so you brought that point out beautifully. 21:06 Number 6, forgiving is exercising my free will, 21:12 my power of choice and it freeze God to enable me. 21:19 Yes, you see God says, Richard, 21:21 you must forgive this is very vital for your relationship 21:25 with me and for the joy that you have in your life, 21:29 you must do this, amen. And if I do it, 21:34 I don't feel like it, but I do it, 21:36 that enables God to pour the blessings. 21:40 Amen, I want to share something with you because, 21:44 yes, I was asking God wants to teach me how 21:48 to explain this to people in an illustration, yeah, 21:51 and I am using this book that I am writing, yeah. 21:53 And I said, Lord, teach me why it's some important 21:57 for us to forgive others and how can I illustrate this, 22:00 yeah. So, let me share with you, 22:01 if you can envision this mountain stream, 22:04 that is coming down and somebody takes little wire 22:08 and we just tack one wire on one side of the mountain 22:12 or the stream I mean and the other end of the wire 22:14 on the other side of the stream. 22:16 Now, upstream somebody has a Mcdonald's wrapper, 22:21 they're having a little picnic, 22:22 they throw their trash into the stream, 22:24 it comes floating down the river and what it is do 22:28 when it reaches that wire, yeah, it hangs up there, yeah, 22:32 and over a period of time as others put trash 22:35 into their stream just like a beaver 22:38 would built a dam stick by stick, 22:40 that trash gets collected long that wire. 22:44 And the Lord were showing me this that the stream 22:47 would be dammed up and I am going okay. 22:49 And He said the wire is unforgiveness, yeah. 22:53 And just that little tiny piece of unforgiveness in our heart 22:56 all the trash of life comes and it begins 23:00 to collect around there, yes, 23:01 and you know bitterness and resentment built up. 23:04 And pretty soon you've dammed up the flow 23:07 of the living water the flow of the Holy Spirit through you. 23:11 So, forgiveness damages us and our life with God, 23:16 but when we remove that wire, 23:18 the Holy Spirit can flow through us again. 23:21 And flow through us to others, yeah, 23:24 more precious like our children, yeah, our friends. 23:29 I think one of the most amazing things and I love this quote, 23:34 yeah, an unknown author, but this what's in Richard's book. 23:39 "When you forgive, you set a prisoner free 23:44 and only then discover that the prisoner was you." 23:50 Was that your experience, yes, with your wife? 23:53 Yes, you know its I counsel people I gave divorce, 23:58 seminars and I know that people who do this and this is hard, 24:02 it's not easy to do. 24:04 And but I counsel them to pray before he end 24:08 and ask God's strength and when they do it, 24:12 I said Aha! It just like I feel like oh, I feel so good. 24:19 I feel like I have been set free, 24:22 set free and God says yes, I have set you free, 24:29 and now he pours his goodness, his Holy Spirit in you and me, 24:35 so that we can minister to others. 24:41 I just am amazed at that how the Lord uses us 24:45 to you know just simple earthen vessels, yeah, like you and me. 24:51 To share from our pain, yeah from our recovery his goodness. 24:57 Now, your book is available this is When the Vow Breaks, 25:01 Richard D'Avanzo, yeah, and this is available 25:06 in the ABC book stores by Pacific Press, yes. 25:09 I think that you're an amazing person, Wow! Thank you. 25:13 And you're a delightful person 25:14 and I say that because I seen Jesus in you. 25:16 Well, that's why all of us need Jesus, amen. 25:19 Because without that we are nothing really. 25:23 If you could look into the camera and tell somebody 25:26 that might be really struggling with unforgiveness, 25:30 just give them a word of hope. 25:31 Yeah, you know as difficult it seems to you 25:35 right now you may sitting there and a saying to yourself, 25:38 I can do that. Well you know you really can't, 25:44 but you can with God. You call upon Jesus, 25:47 and you know it's not just calling ones or twice, 25:50 it's sitting down kneeling down before God everyday. 25:56 Maybe twice day, maybe three times a day and say, 25:59 Lord, I know you want me to do this, 26:00 give me the strength to do this, 26:02 I want to walk with you in all fullness, 26:07 I want the love and the joy and the peace 26:10 to reign in my heart that you can give. 26:13 And you know God will give you the strength to ask forgiveness 26:19 for the things that you've done wrong 26:21 and forgive those things that were done that hurts to you. 26:25 Amen, amen brother, I was just thinking of the scripture too, 26:30 it's in Second Corinthians 5 hence in verse 16, 26:35 and this help me, yeah. It's Paul's writing, 26:38 he says consequently, from now on we no longer 26:41 regard anyone from a purely human point of view, 26:45 even though we once did look upon 26:47 on Christ like from the human point of you. 26:50 You know ask God to help you see that person 26:54 who hurt you from his perspective. 26:56 That they were lost and suffering, 26:59 and anybody who is running around doing these things, 27:01 I don't care if they call themselves a Christian. 27:03 That's right. If they're hurting others 27:04 in such a way particularly in infertility or divorce, yes. 27:07 They're not, I mean they are not walking with God, 27:10 they're lost and suffering. Yeah, 27:11 and you're not knowing the joy that they can have, amen. 27:14 But, remember if you have had that kind of sin 27:18 in your life God forgives, amen, amen. 27:21 And you can be set free, amen, amen, amen. 27:23 Richard, thank you so much for being with us today. 27:26 You are welcome. And I know we're gonna come back 27:27 and do another program on children 27:30 and how your children are effected by the divorce 27:32 and how you can minimize the risk 27:35 of carrying that weight throughout their life. 27:38 So, I am so glad that you've joined us today 27:41 and hope you'll tune in again next time. 27:43 And until we see each other again, 27:45 may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, 27:47 the love of the Father and fellowship of the Holy Spirit 27:51 be with you. Thanks for joining us. |
Revised 2014-12-17