Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Herb Douglass
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000217
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00:30 Hello, I am Shelley Quinn.
00:31 And welcome again to Issues and Answers. 00:33 I'm so glad you could join us today, 00:35 because we're going to be talking about devil. 00:39 And is he real? Peter wrote 00:42 to us in First Peter 5:8 he says, 00:46 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary, 00:50 the devil, walks about like a roaring lion, 00:54 seeking whom he may devour. 00:57 Is the devil a real being or is he just something 01:01 that we conjured up in our mind. 01:03 We are going to be talking about that today. 01:04 And I'm so glad to have returning 01:07 with us again Dr. Herbert Douglas. 01:09 Dr. Douglas, thank you so much 01:11 for being here. My pleasure Shelley, 01:13 glad to be back. Well now you have 01:16 doctored in theology, you have been a professor 01:19 of theology at both Atlantic Union College 01:21 and Pacific Union College. 01:23 You worked as an editor for Review 01:25 and Herald and at Pacific Press 01:28 and now you're with Amazing Facts. 01:30 On top of all of that you are an author of over 01:33 20 books I understand. We are thrilled to have 01:36 you here to be discussing this with us today. 01:40 You know in our last program 01:42 we were talking about something 01:43 a little bit different but, 01:44 we also ended up talking about new spirituality. 01:49 And we didn't have a chance 01:50 to go into the difference between spiritualism 01:53 and new spirituality. Can we just take 01:56 a moment to address that? Very important Shelley, 01:59 because spiritualism is on a different track 02:01 although it's under the same umbrella. 02:04 Spiritualism is a direct connection with the dead, 02:07 or with the other world, with the past world, 02:11 okay. Ouija boards, seances, channeling, 02:15 extra sensory perception, the direct, not, 02:19 it's just the immediate connection 02:21 with the other side. With the spirit world. 02:24 But new spirituality doesn't go 02:26 in that direction or have common, 02:29 a common thread and that they both 02:32 believe in the other side from a standpoint 02:36 you could speak to them. 02:38 But new spirituality emphasizes 02:42 the good within you. It really uses Bible texts 02:47 but does not use the Bible authority, 02:51 okay. It uses text because it sounds 02:52 like they're Christians and it's very appealing. 02:56 Well when it comes down to the ability to find God, 02:59 all you have to do is recognize 03:01 that the other person is God. 03:05 God is within everybody and, 03:07 it's just like pantheism, 03:10 that God is in everything. Panentheism, 03:12 pantheism is God is in everything, 03:16 but Panentheism is God himself is in you. 03:21 You are not his handy work you are God. 03:25 And our job is to realize that wonderful 03:27 divine within you. To reach down 03:30 and open it up for your real potential 03:34 and you do that in many ways, 03:36 many ways. They are not all doing the same thing. 03:40 Some can do it with what we call 03:42 contemplative prayer. 03:44 That is I believe in contemplation, 03:46 I believe in going out and sitting under 03:48 a tree and contemplative God and the future. 03:53 That's not what they mean in contemplation. 03:55 Contemplation to a new spiritual leader 03:59 or follower would be to get down 04:03 into your thoughts in such a way 04:04 that you think no more. 04:06 You go into a neutral mind. 04:09 Into that alpha state and then you know. 04:11 The alpha state? Yeah. 04:12 Oh, you get into that. That's another 04:14 form of new spirituality, okay, that God takes 04:18 you as you are because you are good in word. 04:21 We have to release the good in each other. 04:24 The alpha state is becoming rather 04:26 attractive to many people these days. 04:28 You know I did a series with a gentleman 04:31 who had been Hindu and he is now a Pastor 04:34 of Christian denomination. And he was a chemist 04:38 and he is a scientist and he said the alpha state, 04:41 when you get into this type of meditation 04:44 through visualization through guided imagery. 04:47 Whatever when you are getting 04:48 into that contemplated as you said prayerful 04:52 type situation that in this new spirituality, 04:56 you actually are opening yourself to channel 04:59 the spirit world but not the spirit of God. 05:03 So, it's pretty interesting. 05:04 Well these are wonderful, gracious people 05:06 who are sponsoring this, yes. When you listen 05:08 to them on the radio, TV or read their books, 05:11 you say, my, this is rea insight, this is helpful. 05:15 They call it Christian mysticism for example, 05:17 right, or Christian yoga. 05:19 And I call those are fancy oxymorons, 05:21 yes, you know it's impossible 05:22 to be a Christian yoga. Right. 05:24 But when we talk about contemplative prayer, 05:28 we're talking about reaching down 05:30 into the silence. And you got to just check 05:34 out your mind and forget about any Bible text. 05:37 You cannot have a Bible text in your mind, 05:39 because that's going interfere with sinking 05:41 down into the silence, that's correct. 05:43 Many books have been written 05:44 about these experience. It is an experience 05:48 and may people describe it as a burning light. 05:52 And they want to share that wonderful 05:54 experience with you. Well you could imagine 05:56 what could happen when you shut out all 05:59 discrimination and reason and you just work 06:01 on your feelings and what comes up then. 06:04 That's part of it, the visualization 06:07 you talked about is to visualize 06:08 what you can be by letting that real you come out. 06:11 So there is no emphasis about God 06:13 in the power of the Holy Spirit obviously, 06:16 is releasing the power within you. 06:17 Napoleon Hill and so many of the great motivational 06:23 speakers worked on this principle. 06:25 And you know as a Christian, 06:26 I firmly believe Colossians 127 tells me 06:29 that Christ within me is my hope of glory. 06:32 As a Christian I know that if I am getting 06:35 up in the morning and I am surrendering 06:37 to the Lord and asking to be filled 06:39 with his Holy Spirit. Then I do believe 06:41 that I am the temple of the living God, 06:43 if the Holy Spirit is abiding in me. 06:47 But what these people are doing is something 06:50 quite different. It's not relying on God, 06:53 it's saying that everyone, 06:55 you don't have to be surrender to God. 06:57 You don't have to ask to be filled 06:58 with His Spirit; because there is no personal God, 07:00 there is no personal God, so that's the danger. 07:03 Which brings me you know in my mind 07:06 and I believe you will agree with me 07:07 here is that Herb is that this is another 07:12 deceitful ploy of the devil. 07:14 That it sounds so good, it comes wrapped 07:17 in a shiny wrapper with a big golden bow 07:21 on it and it sounds like something 07:23 that is innocuous, it sounds actually 07:25 like it would be good for us. It's exciting, 07:27 it is exciting but now new spirituality people 07:31 don't actually recognize the devil of Satan 07:37 as a real being. What do you believe, 07:40 what does the Bible teach a Stan a real being? 07:43 To sum up what you just said the Oprah Winfrey 07:46 kind of religion is sweeping this country, 07:50 that everybody is walking up his own path 07:53 and everybody's path is as good as everybody else. 07:55 Because you are on the same spiritual mountain 07:58 and one of these days we'll get to the top. 08:00 That is very appealing; now Satan comes 08:03 into the picture not in new spirituality of course. 08:07 But the reality that he is a living being, 08:09 Jesus said he faced him face-to-face 08:13 and has wildness experience. 08:15 He calls him the father of lies, 08:17 John 8, Peter calls him a roaring lion. 08:22 Revelation 12, he's described as a dragon, 08:25 that evil force. As you will remember Satan 08:31 for example, he is the Satan 08:33 and the accuser and a dragon, 08:35 but he was that force in heaven. 08:38 before there was ever this world created, 08:41 who started a war in heaven. 08:44 Now wait a minute, did you said 08:46 he was the same force in heaven. 08:48 Did God cerate the devil? God created Lucifer, 08:54 in fact he was the first of the all created beings. 08:57 Lucifer saw every other being created. 09:00 He was the first one, he became God's master 09:04 of communication. He was in control, 09:07 he probably memorized everybody's DNA. 09:10 The second angel down to yours and mine. 09:15 But something about you can't explain this, 09:18 but this is what happened. 09:20 well being that close to God 09:22 and seeing the adoration that all the creation 09:26 had for God that something happened 09:30 that he would like to share some of that. 09:32 After all he was the first of creation you know 09:36 and know something about jealously 09:38 that become envy. And envy becomes 09:43 hatred and that was the story, 09:46 the anthropy of what's happening of Lucifer 09:50 who became Satan. Satan is a word 09:51 that means the adversary. 09:54 And he was God's adversary. 09:56 So we find these truce in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, 10:00 that Satan got lifted up he was filled with pride 10:04 and pride led to rebellion. 10:06 So now give me your sound bite description 10:10 for who Satan is? Satan is pure evil, 10:13 okay. Satan is an example what happens 10:17 for person who lets jealousy and be, 10:20 control his life. And pride, 10:25 which everybody that has ever lived 10:27 has had to contend with. I want to be me, 10:31 I want to have time to realize my potential. 10:34 Don't push me around, 10:35 I have a right to this or that. 10:37 That's a little bit of Satan in all of us, yes. 10:39 Power destroys and that Satan is the arch example 10:47 of what happens when power overtakes 10:50 a man or a woman When you get a little 10:52 I trouble, I will be lifted up. 10:55 There is no turning back, because envy leads 10:57 to hate and hate leads to destruction of somebody. 11:00 In the home, in the workplace, 11:03 in the community, in the world, 11:06 hate always leads to coalition. 11:09 What are some of the strategies 11:11 that the devil uses today? 11:15 I certainly like to put it at least into four, 11:19 okay. First, he is a great pretender, 11:26 and then he uses other people to blame 11:29 for what he is messing up, scapegoat him, okay. 11:32 And then when things get more involved 11:37 and issues become more confusing, 11:42 he adds the confusion in many ways 11:45 and then when it comes down 11:47 to it and things are really getting tight, 11:51 he doesn't try to persuade, 11:52 he tries to co-verse one way 11:54 or another to go his way. 11:57 Even to destroy the person he can't win over. 12:02 Let's look at those four categories then 12:04 and kind of let's break this down so that. 12:06 I hear what you're saying but I want to understand 12:08 how does that apply to our lives today. 12:10 So when you say he is a master of pretends, 12:14 how can we apply that or recognize 12:17 that in our lives today? Those who are just impelled 12:23 by self centeredness, he wants it his own way. 12:30 They don't like to be reproved; 12:33 they don't like to be considered a problem. 12:37 And so they will do anything to deceive, 12:40 They will explain how somebody 12:45 how somebody else could be the problem 12:47 and that's self justification. 12:49 Happens in every family, every church, 12:52 every group of people. And so self justification 12:56 leads to showing how somebody 12:58 else is to blame for what's going on. 13:01 If it weren't for my mother and father, 13:02 I wouldn't be the way I am. 13:05 If if weren't for the government 13:07 being so inconsiderate, I would live in a better 13:11 house then I am living in. 13:13 There is always somebody to blame, 13:16 and many homes have been broken 13:20 up by a wife or a husband. 13:23 Who are experts at pretending 13:26 that they are the righteous one, 13:29 that they are the one who is keeping things together. 13:34 That they are the ones who are the ones 13:37 that make their family work and they turn to children 13:41 against the other mate. And then they come up 13:45 with excuses to show that well that wasn't my fault 13:50 that was your mother's fault, 13:51 well that was your father's fault. 13:53 And the children are quite deceived 13:57 of course by this kind of talk. 14:00 So, scapegoating is the way you project 14:04 what you're doing on somebody 14:05 else and getting away with it. 14:09 And when, when you think about, 14:15 what goes on in the world today, 14:17 I have so many examples in my head. 14:20 You can hardly listen a news commentator 14:24 or a politician without being confused. 14:28 Because you listen to what they're saying 14:30 and say that's sounds right. 14:33 Then if you turn the station 14:34 and you listen to somebody 14:35 else on the same subject you say, 14:38 well that sounds right too. 14:39 Somebody is confusing the issue, 14:41 they are masters of confusion. 14:43 By using words with different definitions. 14:49 May I, and let me interact this, 14:51 would you agree that most, 14:53 in most cases when someone is trying to confuse, 14:58 they've got their agenda that they are pushing 15:00 and this is what Satan is. He's got this agenda 15:03 he's pushing, you got that right. 15:04 So they often purposely will put a spin, 15:08 we call them spin doctors. 15:10 And they will put a spin on something, 15:12 or one thing that I've noticed 15:14 that people do quite a bit, 15:16 is that they will take just a measure of truth 15:21 and they may end up with five percent 15:23 truth in what they're saying 15:24 and add 95 percent of a lie. 15:27 And there is just enough truth 15:28 in it that is recognizable that it confuses 15:32 people because they think well this is true, 15:35 the rest must be true. 15:36 So, that's one of it's strategies. 15:39 It's a strategies that works, 15:40 it's the big lie for example 15:43 and Hitler wasn't a perfect example, 15:46 people really believed Hitler. 15:48 He came in to power in 1933 in Germany, 15:53 through a constructional way of becoming 15:59 the Chancellor of the German nation. 16:02 There is nothing wrong with the way he did it, 16:05 he was just using the strategy, 16:08 but it wasn't very long before the gypsies 16:12 and the homosexuals and the Jehovah's 16:13 witnesses were wrong. 16:16 That's the problem, scapegoating, 16:18 he's scapegoating all these people. 16:19 And of course the Jews. 16:21 You have to get rid of these people 16:22 who are the causes of our problems in this country. 16:27 He did it to perfection, confusing, 16:34 you need a true squad to follow up 16:37 many, many politicians, many, many preachers. 16:43 Because it's a strategy that works. 16:48 I don't know if you read 1984 by Eric Blair, 16:55 1984 was written in 1948 and he transports 16:58 these numbers. And he was a, 17:05 everybody should read it once, 17:07 to show what happens to a country 17:10 when you confuse the language. 17:13 When freedom is what everybody wants, 17:17 don't limit people, when two and two are, 17:20 somebody calls two and two 17:21 are five is free to do it. And war becomes peace, 17:29 work becomes freedom. And he thought by 1984, 17:35 the whole world will be in that mess. 17:37 We missed it by maybe 20 years. 17:40 But when I first read it in the late 40's 17:44 I didn't think the world would ever last that long. 17:47 That he was dreaming science fiction, 17:49 there was nothing scientifically fiction 17:51 about his book, yes, 1984, yes. 17:57 People is what I get into the way 18:02 the people can confuse, all through Christianity 18:07 there has been a marvelous strategy of confusion. 18:10 Take the one word faith, that one word faith 18:16 has caused more divisions in the Christian church 18:20 then any other word. 18:24 And maybe it was in our church, 18:26 we have people who are confused 18:27 about what faith means. Because it may take 18:30 the definition of a particular 18:31 Protestant reformer. Then I ask, 18:34 well which reformer are you referring to, 18:36 because I could show 18:37 another Protestant reformer who, 18:39 lets them face differently. 18:41 But they'll hang on to a definition 18:44 that seems to appeal to them. 18:46 Don't you think that a lot of people and you know, 18:49 I meet so many wonderful people, 18:51 in so many different denominations 18:53 and they're earnest, 18:55 absolutely, and they're sincere. 18:57 But they will except what someone 19:01 has told them from the pulpit, 19:03 without studying it out for their own. 19:05 And I even would put myself in that category 19:08 some years back, there were many things 19:10 I had studied out for my own. 19:12 Some things that I just accepted, 19:14 because I thought well all 19:15 of Christendom accepted this. 19:17 But even many Pastors, who often preach something 19:22 that they really taking things out of context. 19:26 And this again I think this is the double 19:27 strategy, its confusion, it's to confuse us, 19:30 who have someone studying 19:32 and going to may be certain study helps even, 19:35 where some on is off. If they are off base 19:38 and they are preaching from that study help 19:40 rather then from the word of God. 19:42 We see that there is a lot of confusion 19:46 within the body of Christ. Take the word grace. Yes, 19:50 we heard lot about grace these days. 19:53 Grace for most people today means God's 19:56 wonderful gift of forgiveness. 20:00 But that's only half of grace, 20:02 amen. The grace of power, 20:04 amen, it changed the kind of life that keeps 20:07 asking for forgiveness. 20:09 That's what I call the unlimited gospel, 20:11 the everlasting gospel, amen. 20:13 But not many churches or preachers are spending 20:17 their time on that today, 20:18 okay. Another word is truth, 20:21 truth is passive for most any university subject 20:24 or college subject today. 20:26 Young people that brought up is not their fault, 20:30 because my opinion is just as good as yours love say. 20:33 Being taught that truth is relative. 20:35 We know truth is relative 20:37 and if I feel that this is the best way 20:40 to look at something, yeah, 20:42 and to appeal to some authority 20:45 or some objective standard is passive. 20:49 That's amazing. Okay, so we're looking 20:51 at some of the strategies of a devil 20:54 and we are looking at how he will use pretense, 20:58 cloaking. You know I tell people 21:00 all the time that sin is nothing more than 21:04 gift wrapped garbage. And it comes to us 21:06 in this big shiny foil package, 21:09 it's all beautifully wrapped. 21:11 And the devil makes us believe 21:14 that it's going to bring pleasure but 21:15 that pleasure short lived and then it brings 21:17 a lot. Everything has an appeal, yes, yes. 21:20 So there was the pretense 21:22 and then there is scapegoating where 21:25 and the devil is you know even for the war 21:28 he led in heaven. He was scapegoating 21:30 saying it's God's fault because God's unfair. 21:33 Because he made rules that we really 21:34 aren't going to be happy, aren't able to keep. 21:36 And he is a tough one, he is a divine paramour. 21:39 He wants everybody to love him, 21:41 but then he doesn't give to us. 21:45 Right, now then there is the confusion 21:47 and the devil will even use scripture to confuse 21:49 us just as he did with Jesus in the desert. 21:53 I mean he would say, it is written you know, 21:57 that he will not let you dash 21:59 your foot against the stone. 22:01 I mean he would use scripture to test Jesus, 22:06 but Jesus knew his scriptures 22:08 and he would come back 22:09 and he'd say it is also written. 22:10 Well the new spirituality uses, 22:13 lots of scripture, scripture all the way 22:14 through their books. But they use, 22:15 they choose like a cherry picker. 22:18 Just the ones that they and half a text maybe. 22:20 And they will take it out of 22:22 context, out of context, absolutely. 22:24 I did that was Rick Warren 22:25 when my other book Truth Matters. 22:28 It's marvelous how he uses text, 22:29 but they are just trying to prove 22:32 his own presupposition, 22:33 not what the Bible 22:34 is saying. That would be 22:36 Rick Warren's book the Purpose Driven Life, 22:37 yes, okay. Now well let's, 22:38 let's go on before we might comeback 22:41 to that in a moment but let's go on to coercion. 22:46 That is another one of Satan strategy. 22:48 There was war in heaven. 22:50 It ends up, evil always ends up 22:54 with some kind of coercion 22:55 and God had to step in and said no more, 22:57 not in heaven. And he was cast out, 23:00 Revelation 12. And ever since evil has 23:04 its own way of trying to destroy people 23:06 who speak for God, alright. 23:09 Think of those three worthies 23:10 on the plain of Dura, 23:12 yes. That was a religious liberty situation, yes. 23:16 And it got pretty tough for those young men. 23:18 Mr. Shadrach, Meshach, 23:19 and Abednego. That was coercion, yes, 23:21 if you don't bow down, 23:22 we're going to throw you into the fire. 23:24 And they were thrown in but God saved 23:26 those three young men. 23:28 The next one was, because the devil 23:30 is trying to get rid of anybody 23:32 who speaks well of God. 23:33 See that's what he hates so much. 23:36 He's been the one who has given such a bad, 23:40 well bum wrap on God all these years. 23:43 That God isn't what he is trying to make 23:46 himself out to be. He is stern, 23:48 he is unforgiving. 23:50 And so Daniel had clearly in mind, 23:53 he had wonderful, well he didn't have 23:55 all of his predictions yet and Daniel 6, 23:58 he has still had seven and eight, nine to write. 24:00 But he certainly had it right on Daniel two, 24:03 the place of God in the universe. 24:06 How do you get rid of Daniel? 24:07 They work out of situation whereby he finally thrown 24:11 into the lions den, that's coercion, 24:14 get rid of God's people. And Herb, 24:17 wouldn't you even agree all the devil's devices 24:21 in that using coercion 24:22 and I will give you an example 24:24 what I'm referring to, 24:25 and that would be like alcohol, drugs. 24:31 You know anything that the devil offers us is sin, 24:35 even if you want us, 24:37 we could throw in pornography, 24:38 we could throw in sexual addictions. 24:41 Sin takes away once you chose it, 24:44 you make the original choice 24:46 and sin pretty much takes away your choice. 24:49 It's almost like the devils, 24:51 his tactics, it's something 24:53 that comes in and it controls you. 24:55 It addicts you and you have, 24:58 you know you lose that sensibility. 25:00 It's you build your own chains of course. 25:02 So, we know that God never controls us, 25:07 I mean we have to yield control to him. 25:10 He never coerces us, we chose everyday 25:13 whom we are going to serve. 25:15 But the devil what he will do is he will make 25:17 something titillating and provocative. 25:20 And it makes it interesting 25:21 and once you get in there it's like 25:23 you lose your choice. You know if you're, 25:26 you can't get out of that. It's hard to get, 25:28 the impulsiveness takes over. 25:30 Right so, so we see that 25:34 if he's using pretense 25:36 and he's using this scapegoating 25:38 and he's using coercion and confusion. 25:41 How does all of this play into end times? 25:46 Well, in earlier discussion we had, 25:50 we talked about a perfect storm, 25:52 yes. Perfect storm not just two storms 25:55 as we talked about in 1991 North Atlantic. 26:01 But we have the perfect storm of the multitude, 26:05 the frequency of the impact of natural disasters, 26:08 increasingly awful. 26:10 We have an economic distress 26:12 that's going to be global, 26:13 international, interactive. 26:15 We are going to have how the United States 26:17 a world power, superpower becomes 26:21 a leading influence in this world to, 26:27 to unite with the papal powers 26:29 in creating a peace effort. 26:35 A union of every willing heart 26:39 that wants a peaceful, 26:42 a peaceful kind of a world, 26:44 and the way you identify with that is, 26:46 lets all get together and we show 26:47 that we can be like Americans used to be. 26:50 Worship together on at least one day a week. 26:55 And so at the end of time, 26:58 we're going to have that final coercive 27:03 kind of a dilemma, 27:06 where they will be two classes of people. 27:08 Those who worship the God, 27:10 his Commandments and the faith of Jesus, 27:12 and those who are going to coerce 27:16 them to the place where we're told 27:18 that they'll even try to annihilate 27:20 them at the end of time, 27:22 that's coercion, amen. 27:23 Get rid of people who love the Lord, 27:25 amen. I can't believe that we're already 27:28 out of time again. Please, get into the word of God 27:31 and know what the Bible has to say 27:33 so that the devil cannot coerce 27:35 you and he cannot confuse you. 27:36 And he cannot use pretense to trap you. 27:40 So it is so important for all of us that we know 27:44 who our adversary is and that he is a real being. 27:48 May the Lord bless you as you study 27:50 His word and get to know him better. |
Revised 2014-12-17