Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jerry Connell
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000212
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00:31 Hello, I'm Shelly Queen and welcome to another Issues and
00:32 Answers. I'm so glad that you joined us 00:34 today and before we begin this program, I have a Scripture 00:37 to share with you and I think you'll understand why as soon as 00:41 we do the program; The Bible says in Mathew 7 in verse 24; 00:45 this is Jesus speaking. He says: Everyone who hears these words 00:49 of mine and acts upon them, in other words obeying them will be 00:53 like a sensible man who built his house upon the rock and rain 00:57 fell and floods came and the winds blew and beat against that 01:01 house, yet it did not fall because it had been founded on 01:06 rock. You know, our topic today is going to be cohabitation 01:10 before marriage, in other words living together before marriage 01:16 and the Bible has to say a lot about this but what were going 01:19 to do today is to look at those who are not following that 01:24 advice of building their house upon the rock of Jesus Christ 01:29 and on His word and actually we are going to be looking at the 01:33 causes and the results from the statistical information and from 01:38 various surveys. We have with us again today and I'm so happy 01:42 he has returned, pastor Jerry Connell from Lincoln Nebraska, 01:46 pastor, for those who haven't got to know you, tell us what 01:48 you do. 01:50 I am on staff of the College Church at Union College, a 01:54 church of about 2100 members plus 900 college students so 01:58 were thinking in terms of about 3000 we provide ministry for, I 02:03 do family ministries and my training is in theology and 02:08 clinical psycho therapy so I'll go, I wear a few other hats, 02:12 primarily what I do is counseling and a lot of what I 02:14 do is pre-marriage counseling, marriage counseling, and post 02:18 marriage or what I call post mortems, I find out why they 02:22 died. So for the divorcees, yes? Yes 02:27 That's a lot of what I do. Well, you know, it seems to me 02:31 that more and more people even in churches are beginning to 02:34 live together. What are your statistics on that? 02:38 Well, that's interesting, let me just give you some statistics, 02:41 in North America, first of all, just across the population, ok 02:45 and then well focus it down more on some of the religious 02:48 world, but I want to go back to something else I think is 02:51 really important, because I've been journaling through the 02:54 gospel of Mathew and when I got to this verse you've just read, 02:58 Yes William Berkeley, the famous 03:00 Scottish theologian from Edinburgh University, the 03:04 famous ethicist but he said on this verse, he said the problem 03:09 today, this was 1956 when he wrote this commentary, he said 03:13 that the problem today is that fewer and fewer people know what 03:17 Jesus said. That's true. 03:21 But Jesus said that if we build, and the way He teaches, 03:23 the way the Scripture teaches, is that were going to build 03:26 something solid, if we don't when the rains and flood of life 03:30 come, Its gonna be disaster. Well if that was true in 1956 03:35 just think how it is 50 years later. Exactly. 03:38 Well, in 1970s in the US about 523,000 couples lived together 03:44 1970, that's all. Half a million By 1980 was 1.5 million, tripled 03:52 By 1990 it was 2.85 million. Unbelievable. 03:57 By the year 2000, 5.5 million. That would knock your socks off. 04:05 You're kidding. And so, at that growth if it 04:07 keeps going, don't have the 2006 but if we keep on going at that 04:10 rate were probably running about 7.2 or 7.4 million couples 04:17 that are cohabiting. That's amazing, now I know this 04:20 is a hot research project right now there's a lot of research 04:25 being done... A lot of research going on, let 04:27 me talk about the churches first of all, and give you a 04:29 little bit of information on that those coming from religious 04:32 backgrounds, see across the border about 50% of people who 04:36 get married are living together before they get married, so 04:41 roughly, ok, now of that 50%, those coming from what is called 04:47 Born Again Christian families, about 25% of Born Again 04:50 Christians are cohabiting before marriage, 37% of just Christians 04:57 across the board, ok, the main line of Christians, not the 05:02 ones with you know, more conservative, about 37 %, 36% 05:07 of Catholics cohabiting before marriage, atheists about 51% 05:15 Interesting! It is. 05:16 And there are some particular reasons why people are 05:21 cohabiting so these is just some research on this, ok? And 05:26 there's 5 major reasons why people choose to cohabit before 05:30 marriage. The first one is experience, we are living 05:36 together, they say, because we want to find out how compatible we are with each other 05:40 They say: does it meet our expectations?; will I be happy? 05:47 We're living together because we want to decrease our chances of 05:51 divorce. We want to increase the chance of a strong till 05:56 death do us part, that's why they are choosing to live 06:01 together. Now, according to Ruggers Univ. 62% of the men and 06:05 women in their 20s believe that living together before marriage 06:09 is a good way to avoid divorce. 62 %, recent research. 06:16 Another 42% said they would only marry someone if that person 06:19 agreed to live together first. And what they don't realize is 06:24 I'm sure, from just what I've seen, in my counseling and in 06:29 my life time is that it probably increases the chances of them 06:34 getting divorced. Were going to get there 06:35 eventually, to that research. The second research says the 06:39 reason why they live together, besides experience is finances. 06:45 Now, that almost makes sense I mean when you think about it 06:49 Here's what they say: We're living together because it just 06:52 makes good sense financially, two can live more cheaply than 06:55 one, why pay for two houses or apartments, cooking for two 06:59 costs less, electricity is less, garbage, telephone, water and 07:03 the research shows though that in cohabitive relationships 07:06 women often pay up to 70% of the cost of the cohabitive 07:09 relationship, yes, so it is not always a good thing for the 07:13 woman. 07:14 Reason nr. 3: companionship, it is not good that people should 07:18 be alone, right? We get a full grip on that. 07:21 Companionship, we would rather live with someone than live 07:25 alone, loneliness is a problem for some, they don't wanna come 07:28 home to an empty house and they want to share their lives with 07:33 someone so the need to eliminate loneliness is very prominent for 07:39 some people and some cohabit to feel loved and appreciated, some 07:45 cohabit to feel secure, so that's part of the companionship 07:51 they feel secure, ok, if you got a guy in the house you feel 07:54 more secure than being alone or just a couple of females living 07:57 together, ok so that's another, the third reason, companionship 08:01 Nr. 4: culture, the reason people live together is they 08:05 just say, you know what, its just where we are and the 08:09 social evolution of our culture, we want to live together 08:14 nowadays because everybody is living together before they get 08:18 married, society once frowned on it but now is acceptable, now 08:21 its normal and the societal, parental and religious 08:29 influences have weakened as the family structure has broken down 08:33 so its no longer seen as taboo like it used to be in years gone 08:38 by and in 1977 the TV program Trees Company, that show shocked 08:45 the sensibility of America when it was on because that was so 08:52 different, that was 1970s I remember it. 08:56 But now its common place for programs on television to have 08:59 boys and girls living together, its no big deal, you'll see it 09:04 on movies all the time and its just become the acceptable norm 09:09 and some churches have relaxed their standards and they are 09:12 saying: well, its where we are with this generation, let's not 09:15 make a big deal out of it because we want to keep them 09:18 coming to church and get them to the next level, next stage I 09:22 mean, next level, into marriage, ok, because we now that when 09:25 people get married they tend to come back to church if they are 09:28 not going to church, especially when they get children and then 09:32 they tend to start coming back to church for a while to see you 09:36 know, what church is like again. Nr. 5 is love. Were going to 09:40 get married eventually, we're in love, and the fact is that 09:45 most men and women who lived together do plan to get married. 09:50 Now some are not even engaged but they plan to and so we're 09:54 going to get married anyhow, we love each other, we anticipate 09:59 making that commitment some day and some people are engaged and 10:02 they are counting the days and so they think, well, you know, 10:06 its close so lets live together and so some they just 10:14 feel that's nothing wrong with doing it and they reason: 10:18 Listen, we love each other, we're going to get married, this 10:22 will be good for us, its a good thing, so why wait until we get 10:26 married? We'll just cohabit and eventually we'll get married. 10:32 So, a high percentage of people think living together is a good 10:34 idea but now to the statistics, I am purposely quoting State 10:40 Universities, non-Christian journals on marriage and family 10:46 and research in those places because I just want people to 10:51 hear what the researchers are finding out. 10:55 And this, you want them to hear aside from the Bible, what the 10:58 Bible has to say is clear but sometimes people who look at 11:02 what the Bible says and say that's our cake, that is, you 11:05 know, that was written so long ago that it doesn't apply to us 11:08 anymore but what we're gonna see now is that current research 11:12 outside of the Christian circle, outside of the Christian norm 11:16 is saying that the results are the same thing that the Bible 11:19 says they will be. Well, it was kind of interesting 11:22 a few years ago and I wish I had been able to Xerox the 11:25 journal because I forgot the author's name but it was a, it 11:29 worked at the University of Minnesota, taught in a school 11:33 of marriage and family there and years ago, 25 years ago he 11:37 used to tell couples: You know what, before you get married 11:41 just live together. I mean, you know, back in the 70s it was, 11:44 you know, the free love kind of thing and the Heat-Ashbery 11:48 Movement, that swept across North America... 11:50 It feels good, do it It feels good, do it 11:53 And so he said that, you know, its not a big deal, just live 11:57 together, try it out, you know what, this gentleman, this 12:01 researcher completely reversed his position because as the 12:05 students came back to him and talked to him over the years it 12:09 began to realize what was happening in their lives and in 12:12 their relationships, The Univ. of Wisconsin school of 12:15 emerging family, the same thing, I've read a research from there. 12:20 But here's what the researchers have looked across the board, ok 12:25 Here's what the researchers are saying: Nr. 1 reason why people 12:33 shouldn't live together, why most authorities say people 12:37 shouldn't cohabit before marriage is there's a greater 12:41 chance of divorce. And these are non-Christian 12:44 researches. These are non-Christian 12:47 researchers, these are just the research that's out there, 12:51 greater chance of divorce in fact up to 85% of those who get 12:55 married after cohabiting will end up in divorce. 13:00 So... Now le me... 13:01 Let me repeat that because I want to clarify it too. Ok. 13:04 But let me repeat the statistic because I want to make sure 13:08 that people hear this: if you live together 85% of those who 13:11 live together before they marry will end up in divorce. 13:16 Well, let me clarify because we need to make this very clear. 13:19 Of those who cohabit before marriage for all of the 5 13:22 reasons why people choose to cohabit with the intention of 13:25 getting married, 50% of them never get to the altar. 13:28 Ok. The average cohabitive 13:30 relationship lasts about 18 months, ok, now, of the 50% that 13:38 do get married, 50 people I mean, ok, so lets take 100 13:42 couples, 50 of them will never even get to the altar, their 13:46 relationship will dissolve before they even get there. 13:50 Of the other 50 of the 100, 85% of those will end up in 13:56 divorce so if you figure that out statistically, of the 100 is 13:59 about 92,5% of every couple will end up in divorce. 14:03 You know, people think that living together is going to be 14:07 a taste of what is going to be married, and it isn't, I mean is 14:11 you don't have without that commitment in your heart and the 14:15 commitment to your spouse or to your partner you are in a 14:18 relationship that is a little more free if you will and yet 14:24 more burdened down, because I wonder how many couples that 14:28 are in their first year of marriage when they are going 14:31 through this adjustment period, and everybody goes through an 14:35 adjustment period, I wonder how many couples, if they had not 14:39 been married but spent that first year or 18 months together 14:43 would have walked away from the relationship but because they 14:47 were married said: ok, I've said I do, I've made a vow, I 14:51 want to keep this and they worked it out. 14:54 Yeah. But 50% of those living 14:57 together never make it... Never even get to the altar. 15:01 And 85% of the 50... The other 50 that get married... 15:04 They get a divorce. Yes, so you figure that as 92,5 15:09 percent of the 100 that start living together and, You know, 15:13 live together and are getting married end up not being with 15:16 each other. When I try to illustrate this with young 15:19 couples or couples I say, you know, lets just go from 92,5 up 15:23 to 93, just to round it off, if you had to cross the street and 15:27 there's only 7% chances you're gonna make it do you think you 15:30 will try? That's almost double 15:32 the national average of 15:34 people who are getting married and getting a divorce. 15:36 Well, that's an interesting statistic too that I could get 15:40 too but let me just say, here's what they found, cohabitation 15:43 increases the chances of divorce that's a study I'm quoting from 15:47 Yale University. Yale Univ. The Univ. of Denver found the 15:51 same thing, a significantly higher divorce rate for those 15:55 who cohabit. The Univ. of Denver US News and World Report called 16:02 the trouble with pre-marital sex reported seriously more 16:05 likelihood the divorce after cohabiting. US News and World 16:08 Report. In the first 5 years of marriage after cohabiting 39% of 16:13 these marriages will break up in the first 5 years, in the next 5 16:18 years 62% of the marriages will break up within 10 years and 16:23 then up to the 92,5% in the subsequent years beyond that. 16:29 I can just hear many mothers out there saying: I told you so. 16:32 Well, you know, we need to move on in our program and what I 16:37 wanted to ask you is: What are some of the results of the 16:42 choice that when people make this choice to cohabit before 16:47 marriage, what are some of the results? 16:49 Well, anytime you deal with a divorce you deal with a 16:52 relationship where your heart is broken if you don't even get 16:55 to the altar that's gonna set you up to invest less deeply 16:59 into the next relationship in case you get shafted. 17:02 Ok. You see, you're gonna hold back 17:04 a little bit on that, secondly, if you're in a divorce, divorces 17:07 hurt, anybody who has been through a divorce and I've 17:10 walked with many people who've done that, I mean you get, its 17:15 not, well, its not just a walk in the park, it's a very painful 17:19 experience going through divorce and it will affect your children 17:24 for the rest of their lives. In some ways I believe that it 17:27 is probably more painful than even the death of a spouse 17:30 because they're still there. If you have children particularly 17:34 you're never divorced. A couple of other things, the second 17:38 reason the researchers are saying its best not to cohabit 17:42 before marriage its because there's better odds for conflict 17:47 Living together outside marriage increases the risk of emotional 17:50 and physical abuse, what most people don't know is that 17:54 aggression is at least twice as common among cohabitation, 17:59 cohabitive couples as among married ones, this is Washington 18:02 State Univ., they wrote an article in Dr. Jen Stats from 18:07 Washington State Univ. in The Journal of Marriage and Family. 18:10 Repeat that statistic, its twice; yeah, a battery, 18:15 domestic violence, twice as high in cohabitive relationships as 18:18 in married relationships. Do you think that's a control 18:23 issue or I mean... There's all... I'd love to get 18:27 into that and I know it might be into that but I want to get 18:30 through the rest of these reasons, maybe we can come 18:31 back to that. Ok. 18:36 Pennsylvania State Univ. did a study and found couples living 18:41 together argue, shout and hit each other more than married 18:44 couples do. That's in The Journal of Marriage and Family. 18:48 So one of the results then of living together could be that 18:52 if you do get married you already established a pattern... 18:54 Exactly. And its pattern that may not 18:56 have happen had you married first but you have gotten into 19:01 this pattern and its an abusive relationship. 19:04 Aha, and in the relationship before marriage. 19:10 Aaa, women are 62% more likely to be assaulted by... if living 19:13 with a man unmarried than if they were married, that's The US 19:19 Justice Department statistic. 62% and then between 1979-1987 19:26 65% of violent crimes against women were committed by 19:29 boyfriends or ex husbands, only 9% were committed by a husband. 19:36 So cohabitation isn't a good thing. I mean this is what the 19:40 research from public univ. are saying. Let me give you another 19:43 reason that they found why people are saying now that the 19:49 research is out: Don't cohabit before marriage. Another reason 19:53 is less chance of happiness, unmarried couples that live 19:58 together have fewer levels of happiness than married couples 20:04 either before or during marriage. It is hard for a 20:09 person to be happy when he or she, when his or her relationship is built on 20:13 the need to prove him or herself You see, that's so much of what 20:18 is in a cohabitive relationship; I wanna do a test run, I just 20:22 wanna see, you got to prove to me that this is, you know, and 20:27 that's what the relationship is built on, so the basis of 20:31 cohabitation is other than to prove ones love and 20:35 compatibility, that's not it, it's just I want you to prove to 20:40 me that you're acceptable, I want you to prove to me that you 20:44 are good enough. If you can make me happy, if we are sexually 20:48 compatible, so I got to try you out to see if were compatible 20:52 if you gonna meet that need in my life. And if its not now I'm 20:57 gonna go find somebody else. In a study, this is a good side 21:03 study, 6203 couples, married partners reported significantly 21:07 higher levels of happiness than did cohabiting couples, that's 21:12 The Journal of Family Issues. That's a big study, 6200 couples 21:16 said as they did the research the level of happiness was much 21:20 better than people who were cohabiting. Let me give you 21:23 another one. This is what the research says, the Journal of 21:27 Marriage and Family, married couples have less depression, 21:30 less anxiety, lower levels of all other types of psychological 21:34 stress. That's married couples. 21:36 Yeah. Compared to those cohabiting 21:39 together Yeah. 21:41 Reason nr. 4: greater risk of adultery. 21:45 Really?! That's interesting. A greater risk of adultery. In 21:48 fact the research even shows that those who were just 21:50 sexually active before marriage even if they don't live together 21:54 there's a higher rate of adultery after marriage. 21:56 Higher rate of divorce too. And I could get into all the 22:00 reasons for that too but here, a Michigan study showed that 22:05 couples who waited to cohabit until after marriage would rate 22:08 their relationship stronger than those who cohabited before 22:12 marriage. Women between 20 and 37 years of age who lived with 22:16 their partners before marriage were more likely to have extra 22:20 marital affairs, men also. About 17% of females and 24% of 22:26 males. Contrary to popular belief a study of 3500 people, 22:32 this is a national sex survey, ok, and another survey of 1000 22:38 people concluded married people have more and better sex than 22:45 non-married. More and better. The long term marital 22:48 commitment deepens both the emotional and physical 22:52 satisfaction because the commitment is there. Yes. And 22:56 those who wait until marriage are 29 to 47% more likely to 23:02 enjoy sex within marriage. That's what the research shows. 23:08 And lastly, the reason why people are saying don't cohabit 23:12 before marriage is there are less likely to even say: I do. 23:17 They go and live because they plan to get married, like I said 23:19 50% of them never get to the altar, the average cohabitve 23:23 relationship lasts only 18 months. Its amazing. 23:27 And... so it sounded like the results of all of these, I mean 23:33 all these are secular organizations, secular studies 23:37 that are proving out what the Bible has to say. Exactly. 23:40 That Gods original plan was the way to go and all that we've 23:44 been fed, all of these reasoning are faulty in their 23:48 thinking and they do not work, Yah, so, for divorce, you know 23:54 up to 85% higher after they get married if they've lived 23:57 together, 85% of that 50% I should say and higher aggression 24:02 50% higher aggression, 50% probability of not even getting 24:06 to the altar. So, I mean there's no reason to cohabit, no good 24:11 reason I mean just pure, raw research, Shelly, there's no 24:16 good reason the people should cohabit before marriage. And 24:23 you know, when we think about relationships we don't usually 24:26 think of it as trying them out, he's trying her out, she is 24:29 trying him out but people say well, we'll know if the other 24:33 is right for each other if we're compatible, if we're both 24:36 happy and fulfilled, if we tried to live together but what this 24:40 means is it all depends on if my partner meets my expectations 24:45 living together automatically puts people on a performance 24:49 basis. Yes. 24:51 And that's not good. Ok, we only have a few minutes 24:54 left so let me ask you a question, I'm sure that someone 24:57 in our audience is going to fall into this category, that they 25:00 are watching, they are currently living together, they may be 25:03 Christian or non-Christian, what advice would you give them, 25:06 say that they have already moved in together, what advice would 25:10 you give them now? Move out! 25:13 That's simple and quick. Aaaa, yeah, I mean I would say 25:16 on unequivocally, move out, start building your 25:18 relationship based on a good, solid basis, because as Jesus 25:21 said, if you build it on a solid foundation... see, all I did is 25:25 illustrate through statistics from secular research 25:28 institutions and non-Christian journals on marriage and family 25:31 What the Bible says.. And so, even though you are a 25:35 pastor saying: Move out! Yeah. 25:38 What you're saying to me from all these statistics and all of 25:41 these studies is that even if you weren't a pastor, if it was 25:44 someone who had done one of these studies, they would be 25:47 giving the same advice. They would be saying... 25:49 These are what the authorities are coming to the conclusion now 25:52 that we've done this research over these last 30 years or so 25:57 Let me just illustrate just again the moving in together, 26:05 living together, how performance based it really is, what they're 26:09 really saying is: If you make me feel loved then I'll marry you. 26:14 If you satisfy me sexually then I will marry you. If you treat 26:17 me with respect then I will marry you. If you make me happy 26:20 then I will marry you. If you fulfill my needs then I will 26:23 marry you. If you like what I like then I will marry you. If 26:27 you make something of yourself then I will marry you. f you 26:30 don't do the things I don't like then I will marry you. The focus 26:34 is on you. Not the other person. In Christian marriage is based 26:38 on considering the other better than themselves and serving and 26:41 meeting the needs of the other person. 26:45 And so in marriage the goal is to take care of the other 26:46 person in sickness and health, in richer or poorer and so the 26:51 greatest thing you could do is just to do what the Bible tells 26:56 us to do because divorce hurts and runs in families from 27:00 generation to generation and it hurts the children because 27:04 literarily it will stay with them the affects for a life time 27:08 You know, we have a couple who works here at 3ABN and they're 27:12 so precious, they never even kissed till they said their 27:16 wedding vows and their marriage is so strong, they are so... 27:20 Can I give you just one statistic, just very quickly 27:22 again, famous authority, the Christian author that I quoted 27:25 before, he said: If people have a real heart relationship with 27:28 Jesus, I mean they really do it right, a real heart relationship 27:31 with Jesus he would say, he has a research to support it the 27:35 divorce rate is 1 in 1000. Praise the Lord. Jerry Connell. 27:38 Thank you so much pastor for being with us and you know the 27:41 Bible says in Psalm 119: 105: Your word is a lamp to my feet 27:45 and a light to my path. If you are living with someone move out 27:49 and look at what the Bible has to say to have a happy future. 27:54 Thank you for joining us! |
Revised 2014-12-17