Welcome to Issues and Answers,
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my name is C. A.
Murray and thank you for
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spending this
time with us today.
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Our topic today
is "Grief Recovery."
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Where is God when
it hurts, where is
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God when your heart is breaking.
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That's a subject
that we have to wrestle
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with quite a bit
in New York during
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the post 9/11
time there were many,
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many people who
asked the question
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where was God on
9/11, where was God
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when my loved one
was in that building
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coming down,
where was God when the
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airplanes crashed
into the building and
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into the ground in
Western Pennsylvania.
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As a New Yorker we
had to wrestle with
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that time and
time again and it maybe
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an issue that
you're wrestling with even
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today. So, to help us
sort of unpackage that
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and solve that, that
dilemma to talk about
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a little bit is
Jerry Thomas. Jerry, good
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to have you here, thank you.
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Jerry is the
Communication Director
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for the Southwestern
Union, Headquartered
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in Dallas Texas and
he is also the Editor
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of that Union Paper the Record.
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But as important
as that is I suspect
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he is the fact that
he is a prolific author
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has written a
number of children's books
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that are very,
very popular. He's also
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the author of
the Messiah which was
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an is a modern
day translation of the
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classic work Desire
of Ages and his latest
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work is
conversations with Jesus.
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And it's in that
context that we wanna talk
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to him today, so
Jerry it's good to have you
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here. Where is
God when it hurts,
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where is God when
my heart is breaking.
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You have personal
experience with that
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as you had to
deal with the death of
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your father not too long ago.
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Yes it was, it was during the
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time I was working
on that book Messiah
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and my father had
served as a pastor
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for a number of
years. But in his search for
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truth one of the
most strong, one of the
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strongest influences
in his life was the book
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Desire of Ages.
When he came in contact
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with that and some
Adventist neighbors,
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our family came
into this church.
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Mostly because of
the picture of Jesus
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my parent saw on
those pages, so the
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book Desire of Ages
was very special to him
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and to me as well.
But it was during the time
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when I was working
on that, that adaptation
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into modern
language you called Messiah.
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That he
developed a cancerous tumor
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and he had to go
in for surgery, I was
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there the
August that he went in,
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we had anointing
service we ask God
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to heal him. When he
have with the surgery
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and thing seem to be
going well for several
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months, but then he
start to get a little
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weaker. On
thanksgiving that year my family
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and I were, I was
in Idaho where I work
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at that time.
And he and my mother
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and my brothers and
sisters all celebrated
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together there in
Texas. They had a good day,
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I talked to him on
the phone, but it was the
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next morning when
my sister called me
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and said things
don't look good at all.
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Dad took a sudden
turm for the worse,
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we've taken him to
the hospital, and you
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should probably
get here if you can.
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Well, I travel
enough to know that,
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that Thanksgiving
weekend is the worse
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travel weekend
of the entire year.
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And it didn't take
me along to find out
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that sure enough
there was no where
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I could get there that day.
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There were no
tickets available and so
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I there I was
stuck in Idaho when my
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father passed
away that same evening.
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And I had some
real questions for God,
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I had some real issues there,
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when you have that
kind of loss you feel
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that kind of pain
you wanna know where
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the God is. Yes,
just as you mention
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in the opening, where is God
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when it hurts this
much. Doesn't he care about
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his people, doesn't he
care about the promises
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that he made, why
doesn't he keep those
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promises. Why
doesn't he heal people
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when we ask him
to? Why doesn't he off
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you protection and
you know I've spend
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years of my life
as a pastor, teacher.
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And I've written a
lot of material talking
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about the love of
God, but you know when it,
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when it strikes that
close to your own heart,
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yes, yes. These are
questions that you ask,
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these are things that
you think and it was a
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difficult time.
Yeah, yeah, what occurs to
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me Jerry one, I don't
think it is a sin to ask,
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I do not, I don't
think God is above being
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questioned. He
says, come let us reason
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together and that
be speaks questioning,
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I don't think God is,
is so thin skinned that
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we cannot question
him. I think he invites
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questions, I
think sometimes he gives
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us answers, sometimes
he asks us to exercise
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a measure of
faith. But I don't think
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he's offended
when we question him.
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I think he
invites you know inquiry.
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Certainly the
example of say Abraham or
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Moses in the
Bible, they continue to
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question God when
they didn't understand,
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yeah and persuaded
different answer then
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the one he gave them
first and, and I think
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you're right
God wasn't offended.
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Yeah, and always
explain, yes, yes but.
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Yeah, I think sometimes
we get to a point in our
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lives where you say
Lord, I just don't know
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what you're doing.
I'm not affronting you,
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I'm not shaking my
finger in your face,
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I'm asking what's
going on, show me what
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you're doing. I
will follow you wherever
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you lead me, but right
now I can't quite figure
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out what's going on
and I think sometimes
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we have that,
that wrestling with God
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and it appears that
that's what you kind
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of went through at that point.
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Yes and fortunately
for me I was working
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on the story of Jesus and about
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that time I, I dealt
with the story of Lazarus.
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Now, you think of
some people who, who had
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questions for
God, oh yeah and yet
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maintained their
faith. Do you think
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the experience of
Martha and Mary there?
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You know they knew
Jesus, they personally
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walked with him,
yes, ate lunch with him,
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yes, he was a
friend of theirs, he wasn't
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just a distant
Messiah type person.
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Now this, this is
the family that kind of
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palled around with
Jesus a little bit yeah,
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that's what Jesus
like to having yeah,
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precisely when he had downtime,
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he hang out at Mary,
Martha, Lazarus house,
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that's right. So,
now they send a message
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the one you love is
sick and in their mind
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they're thinking
well he'll be here any
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minute you know, 10
minutes from now he'll
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be walk into the
door. Because they knew
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that he loved
them, precisely and they
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knew he had the
power to heal, yeah those
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were absolutely true, yeah.
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We know he likes us,
we know he got the stuff,
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he can do it, so
now all we have to do is
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show up and of
course he does not do that.
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Yeah, so that can
throw you into a tizzy,
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that can really break your will.
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And you think of
the struggle they must
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have had, it's
hard for us when we lose
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someone, yes. But
you know we didn't just
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have lunch with
Jesus last week right,
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we didn't just see
him heal a bunch of
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strangers. And
maybe in our own house,
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while he was
there. Yeah, as I remember
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and of course you,
you and you're working
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with the book Desire of
Ages, the life of Christ,
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I think he of
course he delayed his,
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once he got the
message he didn't
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start out right
away to their house.
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And as I recall,
he may have done one
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or two healings
along the way, so
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he stopped and
healed some other people
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and then of course
by the time he gets
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to Bethany,
Lazarus has already been
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death for several
days. So, that, that
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makes you question
your relationship question
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your faith, where is
God indeed when it's hurt.
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I'm looking in the
notes, you feel betrayed,
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did you feel betrayed
like God sort of let you
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down? I did,
because and not only do we
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have the promise
of God's love and his
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concern for our
lives but and maybe
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it's wrong but
when you, when you've
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dedicated your life
to doing God's work when,
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when the one you
love, was a person
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who did God's
work, who was a minister
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also. Shouldn't we
expect God to especially
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have a part in
healing those who have done
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all they could
for him. I don't know,
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and maybe it's
just our human nature
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that we wanna believe that God
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keeps a special eye
on the people who were,
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who were giving
their life for his service.
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Yeah, yeah, so then
did you wrestle with
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and come up with
some sort of answer
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that will work for
you as to why he does
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not always heal,
why does he not seem
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to keep his promises.
It's a difficult issue to
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work through,
because you know sometimes
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in the times
that would make sense
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to us like we're
saying a person who was,
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who was actively working for God
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shouldn't that
person get first priority
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where as a person
who you know maybe a
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peripheral
Christian, okay well you know
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I'm sorry but
it's never easy it's
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never clear yeah. I remember
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clearly the story, friends
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of ours told us that the.
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You know hard time
conceiving one of the
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children badly and
you know they had a hard
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time conceiving
they'd lost the baby and now
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they reached the point
where she was approaching,
00:10:03.29\00:10:05.92
actually being able
to deliver the baby and
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another pregnancy
when they were far from
00:10:09.26\00:10:12.51
hospital and medical
help and the situation rose
00:10:12.74\00:10:15.89
were once again she
lost her child. And of course
00:10:15.90\00:10:20.63
they just toward the
month they were devastated
00:10:20.64\00:10:23.52
that God had listened
to their, their cries for
00:10:23.53\00:10:26.52
help, they done
nothing to help them.
00:10:26.59\00:10:28.36
The first time they
went back to church,
00:10:28.98\00:10:30.95
they told me they were
sitting on the back row
00:10:31.45\00:10:33.30
they were listening
to a man at front saying
00:10:33.31\00:10:35.19
now he had lost his
wallet but he had prayed
00:10:36.30\00:10:38.65
and God had told me
there was it he is thanking
00:10:38.66\00:10:41.22
God for that miracle
finding his wallet and
00:10:41.23\00:10:43.56
they looked at each
other and said oh that's what
00:10:43.57\00:10:45.45
God was doing, when
our baby, we lost our baby,
00:10:45.46\00:10:47.86
he was finding this
guy's wallet. It was very
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hard when you, when
you hear that God healed
00:10:50.94\00:10:53.28
someone else and he
didn't heal the one you
00:10:53.38\00:10:55.38
loved. Yes, yes, I
can you see that sort of
00:10:55.54\00:10:58.27
discard, I remember
someone telling a story
00:10:58.28\00:10:59.80
once that a lady
was saying how she went
00:10:59.81\00:11:02.73
around and around try
to find a parking place
00:11:02.74\00:11:05.56
at the mall and she
was praising God because
00:11:05.57\00:11:09.00
just as she made her
third trip around a person
00:11:09.11\00:11:11.35
pulled out right
in front of the store,
00:11:11.36\00:11:13.92
you know, she said I
only had to walk a few
00:11:14.03\00:11:15.92
feet and praise God.
That you know this miracle
00:11:15.93\00:11:20.72
person pulled on
just as I came in and the
00:11:20.75\00:11:22.68
person's father was
dying of cancer and he
00:11:22.69\00:11:26.16
was saying to us,
this was a union official,
00:11:26.17\00:11:28.61
he was saying in
church. Well, listen Lord,
00:11:28.91\00:11:32.13
I got a miracle I
need too you know,
00:11:33.16\00:11:35.00
you know when she's
praise me for a car space,
00:11:36.10\00:11:37.85
how about a, I got a
father dying of cancer
00:11:37.93\00:11:39.77
what about, what about
that. So to wrestle with
00:11:39.78\00:11:42.56
that idea that God is
still sovereign, he does not
00:11:42.57\00:11:45.50
always answer just as
we, we want, is a tough
00:11:45.97\00:11:51.65
thing. Have you ever
thought maybe it would
00:11:51.73\00:11:53.32
be easier on our
faith if God never healed
00:11:53.33\00:11:57.02
anybody? He didn't do
those kind of miracle,
00:11:57.12\00:12:01.22
yeah, wouldn't that be
easier because it's tough
00:12:01.32\00:12:03.43
when he does a
miracle for someone else
00:12:03.51\00:12:05.09
apparently yeah
and your not miracle,
00:12:05.87\00:12:08.29
because I've to admit
sometimes when I hear a
00:12:08.30\00:12:10.33
story of someone
whose had cancer and
00:12:10.34\00:12:13.12
apparently miraculously
healed, I wanna think
00:12:13.48\00:12:15.59
well you know maybe
it wasn't as bad as they
00:12:15.80\00:12:17.71
thought, yeah and
maybe, yeah you know.
00:12:17.72\00:12:19.76
Yeah and there is a
tendency to do that,
00:12:20.53\00:12:23.14
I have a member,
had a member when I was
00:12:23.66\00:12:25.63
pastoring in New York
who went in had cancer,
00:12:25.64\00:12:28.57
I mean just doctor
said cancer, cancer, cancer
00:12:28.58\00:12:31.22
and four months later
went in doctor said it's
00:12:31.60\00:12:34.57
gone. And you know
you look at that and you
00:12:34.58\00:12:37.81
scratch your head
because there are hundreds
00:12:37.82\00:12:39.88
of thousands who die
of cancer a year, yeah.
00:12:39.89\00:12:41.85
Why, why this one
you know or a plane goes
00:12:41.94\00:12:45.65
down and everybody
dies and one person walks
00:12:45.79\00:12:47.66
away. Why does that
person walk away or was
00:12:47.67\00:12:51.09
somebody praying for
them, who was not praying
00:12:51.10\00:12:52.69
for the others.
There were a group praying,
00:12:52.70\00:12:56.19
instead of just one
they had a whole group
00:12:56.38\00:12:57.91
praying, yes, it's a
magic number here somewhere.
00:12:58.06\00:13:00.55
Right, what's critical
math you know for prayer
00:13:00.56\00:13:02.91
that at what point
do we, do we get his ear
00:13:03.32\00:13:05.09
and yet I guess our
faith doesn't began till our
00:13:05.80\00:13:09.71
sight ends because
some of these things you
00:13:09.80\00:13:11.58
just don't know.
I've seen, I'd a story on
00:13:11.59\00:13:15.60
incidence once a young
lady was very, very sick
00:13:15.61\00:13:18.00
and the mother said
pastor, if you'd come and
00:13:18.31\00:13:19.68
pray she'll be fine.
And fairly early in ministry
00:13:19.69\00:13:23.57
in fact my first church
on my own I did not want
00:13:23.58\00:13:25.51
that responsibly, I said
take her to the hospital,
00:13:25.52\00:13:27.12
mom said no, you
pray she'll be fine.
00:13:27.13\00:13:29.93
So, what do you do,
you go and pray because
00:13:31.24\00:13:33.89
she's not taking her to
the hospital and I'm gonna
00:13:33.90\00:13:36.87
read, you pray, you
scream, you beat the
00:13:36.88\00:13:38.78
floor, just it's like
Lord please don't embarrass
00:13:38.79\00:13:40.62
yourself and don't
embarrass me you know,
00:13:40.63\00:13:42.25
you're praying then I
went back to church for
00:13:44.62\00:13:47.39
afternoon meeting.
And the mother came in
00:13:47.76\00:13:50.11
two hours later
daughter in tow and she said
00:13:50.95\00:13:54.34
she's fine, daughter
came in and she was fine
00:13:54.49\00:13:58.35
and she was healthy
and mother said she brought
00:13:58.36\00:14:01.30
up all of these stuff
just after you left and the
00:14:01.31\00:14:03.59
daughter was fine.
Well, it, it happened
00:14:03.60\00:14:05.74
you know and you
praise God for it,
00:14:05.87\00:14:10.06
but you don't have the
iron clad guarantee that's
00:14:10.21\00:14:12.21
going to happen
and many, many times it
00:14:12.22\00:14:14.55
doesn't happen my,
my dad, you know I had
00:14:14.56\00:14:17.65
the same experience,
he passed also of course
00:14:17.66\00:14:20.03
ours was a little
different, I had baptized
00:14:20.28\00:14:21.80
him a month before. And
we were so happy that we
00:14:21.81\00:14:24.18
got him in after 70
plus years of serving Satan,
00:14:24.19\00:14:27.62
he only got to
serve the Lord one month.
00:14:27.86\00:14:29.53
So, that funeral was
kind of joyous and it was
00:14:29.80\00:14:32.11
sudden, we
baptized him in October.
00:14:32.19\00:14:34.38
He had a heart attack
in November and passed
00:14:34.53\00:14:36.97
very quickly. So, I
didn't know if it's any better
00:14:37.14\00:14:39.98
if you can see coming
down a road, it's very
00:14:39.99\00:14:41.65
sudden I don't know if
that makes it any better.
00:14:41.66\00:14:43.40
You still tend to
question God but were so
00:14:44.14\00:14:45.93
happy. Folk asked us
why we were so joyous
00:14:46.11\00:14:47.78
at the funeral,
because we got him in,
00:14:47.88\00:14:49.48
you know it's totally
different and he had not
00:14:49.49\00:14:51.49
served the Lord, save
that last month and he
00:14:51.50\00:14:54.54
was kind of ill during
that last month of time.
00:14:54.55\00:14:57.21
But, it's, it's
a different thing.
00:14:58.46\00:14:59.59
Well, when someone
else is healed and our
00:14:59.67\00:15:01.70
loved one isn't, we
always wanna think okay did
00:15:01.71\00:15:03.46
God love them more,
you know are they just a
00:15:03.47\00:15:07.32
better person and
someone there we have to
00:15:07.33\00:15:09.52
question, and I
think that's where Mary and
00:15:09.53\00:15:11.36
Martha must have
been yes. I mean they knew
00:15:11.37\00:15:13.88
Jesus could heal, they
saw him healing strangers.
00:15:13.93\00:15:16.35
So why not heal
their loved one, yeah.
00:15:17.06\00:15:19.46
And does he just
really not care, you know I
00:15:19.69\00:15:22.48
must have been a heart
-wrenching. Yeah, I well
00:15:22.49\00:15:25.48
think though particularly
the fact that they knew
00:15:25.49\00:15:27.36
him intimately, they
were as we said earlier,
00:15:27.37\00:15:30.17
they were friends,
buddies if we can use that
00:15:30.33\00:15:33.20
term. And yet he is
your, your best friend if
00:15:33.21\00:15:36.49
I recall in that
book Desire of Ages your
00:15:36.50\00:15:38.86
translation called the
Messiah. Lazarus is one of
00:15:38.87\00:15:42.58
Christ closest and I
think the term which she
00:15:43.07\00:15:44.80
uses disciple
although he was not numbered
00:15:44.81\00:15:47.04
among 12. Obviously
he and Jesus were very,
00:15:47.05\00:15:49.83
very close, well now you
think, well you're gonna,
00:15:49.84\00:15:51.79
surely you're gonna
come and hear your buddy.
00:15:51.84\00:15:53.30
Yeah, I know. It's like I
was thinking with Lazarus,
00:15:53.31\00:15:57.15
he's Jesus best
friend outside of work, yeah,
00:15:57.16\00:15:59.42
yeah. He's got the
guys who travels with,
00:15:59.43\00:16:01.16
then Lazarus,
yeah, yeah, yeah. And but
00:16:01.53\00:16:04.59
you think that the
faith with Mary and Martha
00:16:04.60\00:16:06.50
because in spite of
that they still believed
00:16:06.67\00:16:10.30
in Jesus, they still
believed that God was
00:16:10.51\00:16:12.98
gonna resurrect
their, their brother someday,
00:16:12.99\00:16:15.39
it's just a
staggering story of faith.
00:16:16.07\00:16:18.29
It is, it is, knowing
all of that and experiencing
00:16:18.30\00:16:20.57
all of that they
still believe, they had
00:16:20.62\00:16:22.77
questions. They, you
know were crying their
00:16:22.91\00:16:25.63
eyes out, but they
still believe. Was that the
00:16:25.64\00:16:29.60
way it was for you,
because obviously you had
00:16:29.61\00:16:31.93
to work through
it, wrestle through it,
00:16:31.94\00:16:33.63
hold on to your
faith, finish your project.
00:16:33.82\00:16:36.46
You're still
standing so you might have,
00:16:36.63\00:16:38.10
you must have
wrestled with it and done so
00:16:38.23\00:16:40.15
successful. Well, I
think I particularly and
00:16:40.16\00:16:44.03
working through this
story of Lazarus I mean
00:16:44.04\00:16:46.95
you don't come up
with an answer there is not
00:16:46.96\00:16:48.42
a reason why. But
what you seen in the story
00:16:48.43\00:16:51.73
of Lazarus is that
it's not a matter that Jesus
00:16:51.74\00:16:55.78
didn't care, it's not,
it wasn't important to him.
00:16:55.79\00:17:01.27
You can see in that
story how much it mattered
00:17:01.67\00:17:05.01
to them. When Jesus
gets back to Bethany
00:17:05.02\00:17:09.14
and he calls Martha
to come out of the house
00:17:10.69\00:17:13.29
and come down
and she sneaks away,
00:17:13.30\00:17:14.49
so no one else is there
but her and the Jesus and
00:17:14.60\00:17:18.31
first thing she says is
Lord, if you've been here,
00:17:18.42\00:17:21.37
yes, my brother
wouldn't have died.
00:17:21.70\00:17:23.53
And Jesus, I
could just picture him,
00:17:24.89\00:17:28.20
taking her hands in
his and saying you see your
00:17:28.30\00:17:31.35
brother again you
know you will. And Martha
00:17:31.36\00:17:34.71
through the tears in
her eyes says I know I
00:17:34.81\00:17:36.89
was see him again
in the resurrection,
00:17:36.90\00:17:38.36
the last day. And
that's when Jesus says those
00:17:38.47\00:17:42.96
words that we repeated
in funerals at that time,
00:17:43.04\00:17:45.63
yeah, yeah. But he is
not preaching, he's talking
00:17:45.64\00:17:48.93
to someone who was
balling her eyes out right
00:17:49.05\00:17:51.55
in front of him,
yeah, yeah. He says I'm the
00:17:51.56\00:17:53.34
resurrection and
I'm the life, yeah.
00:17:53.35\00:17:55.13
And it's a powerful,
a powerful reality Jerry
00:17:56.04\00:17:58.77
to to hold on to, I
know I'll see him in a
00:17:58.78\00:18:02.58
resurrection, I
am the resurrected,
00:18:02.59\00:18:06.41
resurrected it's
standing some, is not some
00:18:07.37\00:18:09.12
distant place or time,
right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:09.13\00:18:11.61
It's a guarantee, it's
a guarantee you have to
00:18:11.78\00:18:13.26
reach out and grab
on to that guarantee for
00:18:13.27\00:18:15.17
yourself didn't
you? That's right, yeah.
00:18:15.18\00:18:16.83
But the most
precious scene in scripture I
00:18:17.42\00:18:19.64
believe and the
story comes up next,
00:18:19.65\00:18:22.21
where they go to
the garden and to visit
00:18:22.24\00:18:25.32
Lazarus's tomb and you
know the verse that all
00:18:25.51\00:18:31.26
young memory
verse, memorizers love,
00:18:31.93\00:18:36.04
oh yes Jesus wept,
35 sure. When you look
00:18:36.24\00:18:38.92
that story Jesus,
Jesus cried you know,
00:18:38.93\00:18:43.19
I wouldn't even
bother. He wasn't sorry that
00:18:43.20\00:18:46.27
Lazarus was dead he
was about to bring Lazarus
00:18:46.40\00:18:48.85
back to live. He
could change that surely,
00:18:48.86\00:18:50.22
yeah, that wasn't
a problem for him,
00:18:50.44\00:18:51.87
why was he crying
about. He knew what was
00:18:51.88\00:18:53.81
gonna happen next,
right the only reason he
00:18:53.82\00:18:57.05
would be crying is
that he knew how much
00:18:57.06\00:18:59.18
it had hurt them,
yes. He knew how much
00:18:59.19\00:19:01.53
Mary and Martha will
suffer and I look at that
00:19:01.54\00:19:04.47
I think you know if it,
if he could feel their pain
00:19:04.48\00:19:08.96
on the verge of the
triumphant moment that
00:19:09.71\00:19:11.92
was coming so
quickly I have to know that
00:19:11.93\00:19:14.76
he could feel my
pain too. Yeah, yeah, yeah
00:19:14.77\00:19:17.29
that gives me hope
and this thought much
00:19:17.88\00:19:21.59
of the suffering
was occasioned by a
00:19:21.60\00:19:23.73
misunderstand of
who he was and what his
00:19:23.74\00:19:26.36
mission was. And I
think the same can beside
00:19:26.37\00:19:29.03
of us today. That
when a loved one dies,
00:19:29.04\00:19:34.03
I think a lot of our
suffering is occasioned by
00:19:35.10\00:19:37.13
a number of things.
One, separation of course,
00:19:37.14\00:19:41.44
but perhaps a
misunderstanding of
00:19:42.04\00:19:43.93
what's, what's in
store for us when I was
00:19:43.94\00:19:46.55
pastoring my last
church, Ephesus Church I did
00:19:46.67\00:19:48.92
117 funerals, 117 at
everyone of those funerals
00:19:49.16\00:19:54.48
I made this statement.
Death in Christ is not
00:19:54.54\00:19:58.34
such a bad thing,
better to die in Jesus then
00:19:58.36\00:20:02.20
live without him and
I think sometimes it may
00:20:02.21\00:20:05.69
sound cruel but I
believes it's my heart that
00:20:05.70\00:20:07.75
we want to hold on
to the person for us.
00:20:08.64\00:20:12.71
Not necessarily for
them, I've been at the bed
00:20:13.75\00:20:17.54
side of individuals
who've been reduce to 98
00:20:17.55\00:20:20.85
pounds and 97
pounds because of cancer.
00:20:20.86\00:20:22.92
And the families
still holding on for them I
00:20:23.11\00:20:26.53
think a bit
because they don't want the
00:20:26.54\00:20:28.64
separation but my, my
point is if you die in
00:20:28.65\00:20:34.50
Jesus you won.
Because he says I'm the
00:20:34.51\00:20:38.31
resurrection and the
life, that's right so death
00:20:38.32\00:20:41.20
in Christ is better
then life without him.
00:20:41.21\00:20:44.40
That's why the Bible
says First Thessalonians
00:20:44.63\00:20:48.09
4:16 at the end of
that we should ask,
00:20:48.10\00:20:51.47
not also we shall
we changed, it end with
00:20:51.48\00:20:53.35
the saying wherefore
comfort one and another
00:20:53.36\00:20:56.77
with these words.
Well, why should those words
00:20:57.00\00:20:59.01
be comfort, because if
we believe in Jesus died
00:20:59.02\00:21:02.56
and rose again the
Bible says then those who
00:21:02.57\00:21:04.94
sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
00:21:04.95\00:21:07.56
You know, so we have
the promise that those
00:21:08.15\00:21:11.14
who sleep in Jesus
will one day rain with Jesus
00:21:11.15\00:21:14.56
and that's the
comforting thought did you
00:21:14.64\00:21:16.77
process that you
know during your time
00:21:16.78\00:21:18.51
particularly as you're
writing this monumental
00:21:18.69\00:21:20.87
of work on the life of
Christ. Well, I did and
00:21:20.88\00:21:23.84
and it's like you
say you don't wanna let
00:21:23.85\00:21:27.73
people go, but at
the same time you know
00:21:27.74\00:21:33.31
that the human
condition is that's we're all
00:21:33.32\00:21:35.57
gonna end up. Yes,
yeah and if Jesus doesn't
00:21:35.58\00:21:37.66
return you and I
all of us those who love
00:21:37.67\00:21:39.74
will eventually
passed around own death.
00:21:39.75\00:21:41.68
As long as we can
assure ourselves that it
00:21:43.77\00:21:46.01
doesn't happen
because God doesn't care
00:21:46.27\00:21:48.33
about us or that it
doesn't matter to God
00:21:48.34\00:21:51.27
then I think it's okay
I think we can deal with
00:21:51.28\00:21:53.49
that, we not
understand why, particularly
00:21:53.63\00:21:55.56
when it happens
suddenly and unexpectedly.
00:21:55.57\00:21:57.48
There may not be an
answer why that we can,
00:21:58.58\00:22:00.40
yes, that we can
live with. But if we know
00:22:00.57\00:22:02.74
it's not because God
doesn't care yes, yes,
00:22:03.84\00:22:06.59
but he feels our
pain. He knows what we're
00:22:06.60\00:22:09.25
going through like
Jesus did with Mary and
00:22:09.26\00:22:10.93
Martha and I think
we can, we can leave the
00:22:10.94\00:22:13.22
rest of it in his
hands. Yeah, there is great
00:22:13.23\00:22:16.03
comforting in knowing
that the God in heaven is
00:22:16.10\00:22:19.62
touched with
our, with our grief.
00:22:19.65\00:22:22.24
Sometimes we just
want somebody to, to cry
00:22:22.50\00:22:24.88
with you, you know I
heard this cute little
00:22:24.89\00:22:26.56
story I got to tell
it I know our time is
00:22:26.57\00:22:28.24
slipping away. This
fellow down the street
00:22:28.25\00:22:31.24
from family his wife
passed and at the funeral
00:22:31.33\00:22:33.71
came, was over and
he came out and he sat
00:22:33.72\00:22:36.60
on the, on the
porch and a little boy got
00:22:36.61\00:22:40.99
off his mother's lap
and went down the street
00:22:41.00\00:22:42.67
and just sat on the
man's lap for about an hour
00:22:42.88\00:22:44.83
and then he came
home and the mother said
00:22:45.50\00:22:48.28
well son, what did you
talk with him about for,
00:22:48.89\00:22:51.13
for a whole hour.
And the little boy said I
00:22:51.66\00:22:53.80
didn't, I didn't say
anything I just helped him
00:22:53.81\00:22:55.80
cry a little and you
know I heard the story
00:22:55.81\00:22:58.21
it touch me.
Sometimes does need somebody
00:22:58.22\00:23:00.18
to help you cry and,
and to know that in your
00:23:00.19\00:23:03.47
grief Christ is
touched, yeah. He is crying by
00:23:03.61\00:23:06.71
along stand you
and that could be,
00:23:06.72\00:23:08.35
just can he did with
Mary and Martha, precisely.
00:23:08.36\00:23:09.54
He just there to
cry with him, yeah just
00:23:09.55\00:23:11.03
there to cry with
him, yeah, yeah. If someone
00:23:11.04\00:23:16.17
were to say to you
and I'm putting you the
00:23:16.18\00:23:18.80
spot again. What are
the steps to heal and
00:23:18.81\00:23:23.25
what were the steps
that you used to healing?
00:23:23.26\00:23:26.05
What were the
realizations that helped you
00:23:26.16\00:23:28.06
get through that
experience, if you could
00:23:28.07\00:23:29.66
give me 1 to 4 or 1
to 5. Could you do that,
00:23:29.67\00:23:33.16
could you even
look at to that way?
00:23:33.17\00:23:35.06
I think you have to
start with the reality
00:23:38.18\00:23:41.17
that nothing, that
anyone can say or due is
00:23:42.26\00:23:46.13
gonna make the
pain stop right away;
00:23:46.14\00:23:48.85
it's just not gonna
happen. No, magic bullet,
00:23:48.86\00:23:50.74
no Pat dancer that
will do that, you can read
00:23:50.75\00:23:53.66
the promises of
God, you can believe the
00:23:53.67\00:23:55.43
promises of God
sincerely, but the pain doesn't
00:23:55.44\00:23:58.10
go away quickly. It's
gonna take time to deal
00:23:58.11\00:24:01.55
with the pain
that's all that is to that.
00:24:01.56\00:24:03.27
But you can do and
what I have have always
00:24:04.69\00:24:07.53
recommended people
do, when they suffer
00:24:07.54\00:24:09.77
loss is to spend time
in the story of Jesus,
00:24:09.78\00:24:13.22
reading your Bible.
Remembering the promises
00:24:13.59\00:24:17.22
that he gave and
that, that he does promise
00:24:17.23\00:24:20.96
to return and put
an end to this. The one
00:24:21.02\00:24:23.91
thing the story of
Jesus tells us strongly that
00:24:23.92\00:24:26.43
anything else because
the story ends and Jesus
00:24:26.44\00:24:30.34
own sacrifice as it
there is nothing God won't
00:24:30.35\00:24:34.05
do it to stop sin and
pain forever, nothing,
00:24:34.29\00:24:37.25
including letting his
own best friend die the
00:24:37.83\00:24:41.31
Lazarus. Including
Jesus himself suffering and
00:24:41.32\00:24:43.66
dying, yes, because
that was the only way he
00:24:43.67\00:24:45.89
could put an end this
kind of pain and suffering
00:24:45.90\00:24:47.92
forever. So, there is
nothing God won't do to
00:24:47.93\00:24:50.50
put an end to it.
You know God loves you,
00:24:50.51\00:24:53.52
you know he
understand your pain. You know,
00:24:53.81\00:24:55.78
he is working to
make it stop forever,
00:24:55.79\00:24:58.06
praise God. Then
the rest is just time,
00:24:58.28\00:25:00.92
and I think adding
to that, to that mix,
00:25:01.32\00:25:03.99
the recipe the idea
that is not a sin to
00:25:04.00\00:25:07.11
question God. No, as
long as you don't give up
00:25:07.12\00:25:10.10
on him, you can,
he take the questions,
00:25:10.11\00:25:11.99
he can take, I dare
say a little finger shaking
00:25:12.24\00:25:15.20
as long as you don't
turn your back to him.
00:25:15.90\00:25:17.68
You can shake you
finger and you can,
00:25:19.09\00:25:20.43
you can cry and
you can question.
00:25:20.44\00:25:21.93
Do a little
shouting if that's necessary,
00:25:22.07\00:25:23.72
yeah you got to scare
him, you can scare him,
00:25:23.73\00:25:25.66
yeah. That's very good
and with that comes your,
00:25:25.67\00:25:30.53
comes your healing,
yeah comes your healing.
00:25:30.58\00:25:32.99
Given that and it's
been, it's been five years
00:25:34.72\00:25:37.06
you've wrestled with
it and come through it
00:25:38.71\00:25:39.95
successfully, praise
God, praise the Lord.
00:25:39.96\00:25:42.82
Yeah, yeah that's,
that's a good thing,
00:25:44.12\00:25:46.08
there is one other
point I want, I want to touch
00:25:46.83\00:25:48.69
on, this idea that, that
Christ is ever present in,
00:25:48.70\00:25:55.60
in our grief, that
he never leaves us.
00:25:55.61\00:25:59.10
At what point did that
sort of kick in for you,
00:26:01.58\00:26:04.11
that you're not you
know because there is
00:26:04.25\00:26:06.71
this, there's this
loneliness when there's a
00:26:06.72\00:26:07.95
loss and then there
is a point that I'm not
00:26:07.96\00:26:09.81
in, at what point in
that healing process did
00:26:09.82\00:26:11.69
that, did that kick
in? Well, you know there is
00:26:11.70\00:26:15.25
a terrible amount
of loneliness and loss
00:26:15.26\00:26:17.71
fortunately in my case,
my mother's still alive,
00:26:18.08\00:26:21.39
she was there, so
we comfort each other,
00:26:21.57\00:26:24.39
my brothers and
sisters were there and
00:26:24.55\00:26:26.43
even when we're
talking with people who have
00:26:27.64\00:26:29.19
the same questions
and are feeling the same
00:26:29.20\00:26:31.00
pain. There is comfort
in each other that you,
00:26:31.01\00:26:34.41
that you can't, can't
do without in those times
00:26:35.16\00:26:38.97
but when all that's behinds you.
00:26:39.22\00:26:40.64
You know when the
funeral has come and
00:26:40.65\00:26:42.11
gone and you've got
to get back to your real
00:26:42.12\00:26:43.98
life, to the every
day struggles that's when,
00:26:43.99\00:26:47.21
that's when you have
to come to peace with
00:26:48.22\00:26:49.57
God. Yes, because
there is no one left around
00:26:49.58\00:26:52.10
to, to hold your
hand now you got pertained
00:26:52.11\00:26:54.83
like nothing matters
and you go back to your
00:26:54.84\00:26:56.75
business just like
you'd before. Yeah, it's hard
00:26:56.76\00:26:59.50
to do but that's when
if you, if you believe that
00:26:59.51\00:27:04.44
Jesus is with you, if
you take his promise to,
00:27:04.57\00:27:10.34
to bring your loved one
back in the resurrection,
00:27:12.40\00:27:15.38
it's hard yeah. You
can feel his presents and
00:27:15.39\00:27:19.46
sometimes that's all
that keeps you going yeah,
00:27:19.47\00:27:22.33
yeah. It takes time
and the presence of Jesus
00:27:22.34\00:27:25.75
is something that
you can feel especially
00:27:25.76\00:27:28.09
when you're in pain.
Praise God, praise God.
00:27:28.10\00:27:29.78
It occurs to me
Jerry, that healing is not a
00:27:30.29\00:27:33.92
communal
experience, it's one on one,
00:27:34.10\00:27:36.41
it's just you and the
Lord. But even in your,
00:27:36.96\00:27:39.17
your darkest
moments, your saddest moments
00:27:39.18\00:27:41.42
Jesus has promised
to be there, to be there
00:27:41.69\00:27:43.99
with us. And that's a,
that's a good thing, yes.
00:27:44.00\00:27:46.58
Thank you so very;
very much. Where is God
00:27:46.61\00:27:49.30
when it hurts? He is
right by your side you
00:27:49.31\00:27:52.08
may not see him, but
I guarantee you he is
00:27:52.09\00:27:54.78
right there. Pray to
him and talk with him,
00:27:54.79\00:27:57.30
he'll be with
you, God bless you,
00:27:57.61\00:27:59.08
we'll see you next time.
00:27:59.09\00:28:00.06