Welcome to Issues and Answers.
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I'm C.A. Murray
and thank you for
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joining us today.
My guest is a very
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special friend of
some years Jerry Thomas,
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who is currently the
Communication Director
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for the Southwestern
Union, and I hope I got
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that all in there.
He is a prolific author
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we can say. He's
written many, many books
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in particular a series
of children's books that
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have become very,
very popular not only
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in the Adventist Church,
but really I think around
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the literary world.
He is a quite famous
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children's book
author, and of course he also
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undertook a monumental
task just sometime ago
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as he rewrote the
classic book Desire of Ages
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into modern
translation called the Messiah.
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But today we want
to talk about an issue
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that comes from his
latest book, which is a
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conversation with
Jesus, did I get right Jerry?
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Conversation with
Jesus. Conversation with Jesus,
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one of the issues
that book addresses
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is the issue of
guilt, and that's the issue
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we want to tackle
today. We want to talk
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about guilt and sort of
examine that a little bit,
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find our how to
get out from under it
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and to keep it from
hindering our Christian
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experience. Jerry
good to have you here
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first of all. Thank you.
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And good to see you
again, okay, after a few years.
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You're looking fair and fine.
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we're dealing with guilt
and one of the statements
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that I see here on,
on my outline says that
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many people, if not
most people carry around
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a load of guilt. Talk
about that little bit and
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how that impacts our
Christian experience?
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Well, all of us have
regrets from the past
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things that we
know we handle badly,
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made bad decisions
on, for those of us
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who are parents you
can always look back
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and see what you
did wrong raising
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your children. And
those of us in long term
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relationships you
know, you've heard your
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spouse's feelings on
more than one occasion.
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And then when you add
on the element of how we,
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we know we've disappointed God
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by the way we've acted sometimes
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the road rage, when
you're stuck in traffic
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or the, other times
when you add your numbers
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just right on that tax
return to your advantage.
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The sort of things
that we can slip by on,
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but later, maybe
late at night the guilt
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comes back. We realize
we're not living the life
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God wants us to. And
for, for a lot of people,
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a lot of us the
guilt becomes a burden that
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we carry and we can't talk about
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it really to people.
And we're not sure that God
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can really forgive
us we, we don't know
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how to handle the
guilty. And I think that adds
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to a lot of people stress.
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If that guilt then is
left sort of unresolved,
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what, what can it do to us?
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For a lot of people
the unresolved guilt leads
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directly to illness.
And some of those illnesses
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are stress related
directly whether it's heart
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disease or stroke or
even something like cancer
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when you're burdened by
guilt and it effects your,
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your ability to resist disease.
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Yeah, less
threatening than cancer,
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but I think equally
as bad or as debilitating
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maybe just
depression. Oh! Yes, yeah, yes.
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Depression and you,
you don't have to look
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long on in today's
media to see how strongly
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they're pushing the
depression medication.
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How many people seem
to be looking for anyway,
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yeah, out from under the
depression that they feel?
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Yeah, I suspect you
could go through your life
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medicated though not well.
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I mean you could feel better,
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you can take an
upper, feel pretty good,
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but you haven't
really dealt with
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the core problem
or the core issue.
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Yeah, yeah, pretty
direct, yeah. What,
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what is the chapter in
the book specifically that
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deals with this,
what's it called?
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In that chapter
we're dealing with Jesus
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conversation with the man
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who was
paralyzed, whose four friends
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carried him to
Jesus, you know the story.
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Oh! Yes. Put the
hole in the roof,
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lowered him down,
and it's really an odd
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conversation with
Jesus because in a sense
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no one speaks but
him. We don't have any
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record of the paralyzed
man responding to Jesus.
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Yet, Jesus knew what he wanted?
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Oh! Yes. And at
the same time in that
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setting he recalls
at the end of the story
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the Pharisees, the
spies, who heard Jesus say,
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your sins are
forgiven, they immediately began
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to think that he was blasphemy,
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and Jesus responds
to them, even though
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they hadn't
spoken out loud, yes.
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So Jesus is talking to
people, but they're not
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saints, yeah, so
one sided conversation,
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but at the same time
it's Jesus responding to
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people's thoughts and,
and prayers in this case.
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And of course we
get the understanding
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what is it tougher to
do say, take up your bed
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and walk or say
thy sins be forgiven,
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and Christ,
Christ says, I am both.
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That's right;
that's exactly he told.
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And in fact, that's
what I'm going to do, yeah.
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I'm going to do almost
forgive him and get him
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out of this, out
of the stretcher.
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You pose an interesting
question, and I think,
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if I'm framing it correctly,
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it's the idea that,
if a person could be
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physically whole or
guilt free, which one would
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they probably choose?
First, why that question
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and then unwrap the
answer to that as you,
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as you see it. Well,
think about it in your
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own life, if you could,
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if you could really believe that
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you are forgiven,
released from guilt,
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from all of the
things that you've ever done
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from childhood on.
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What would do to
you, how would you feel
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if you could know
that that was true?
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Of all the things
you regretted saying
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or not saying, if all
of the actions you took
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or failed to take,
they were quite clean,
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they were forgiven,
how would, wouldn't that
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change your whole
life, your whole attitude.
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I think for a lot of
people who carry a burden
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of guilt that would
be such a release to them
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that like this man
on the cot, you know,
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he was lowered down
there and Jesus said,
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your sins are forgiven
and he was happy, yeah.
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He didn't need
to jump up and down
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and dance about, he
was happy lying there,
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yeah, because he
was forgiven, yeah,
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and that's what
he really wanted.
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Now the freedom from
the disease, the healing,
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now that was
completely secondary
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to have. Yeah, sort
of the cherry on the,
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on the top of the
icing, that's right,
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but the main thing
that he was forgiven.
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What he wanted was
forgiveness, yeah, yeah,
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and I think, I
think for a lot of us,
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if we could choose
that we, we might be content
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with the, the
tennis elbow or the
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arthritic knee or, but
all if we could be released
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from the guilt, if we
could feel forgiveness.
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I think it would
brighten our days
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and ways that we
can hardly imagine.
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Yeah, praise the
Lord. Let me just backup
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a little bit, what
was the, the energy behind
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writing this book, it
seems like it deals with
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a lot of very
bedrock personal issues that
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Christians go through
in their walk with Christ.
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We're dealing with
guilt in particularly,
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but there are a number
of things that are very
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interpersonal or personal as,
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as relates us in our
relationship with Jesus.
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Where did that that come from?
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It grew out of my,
the time I spend reading
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the Desire of Ages, the
beautiful story of Jesus
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that Ellen White
wrote so long ago.
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When I was doing the
modern English adaptation
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of that it, it occurred
to me that in so many cases
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in so many ways,
when Jesus said the,
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the verses that we
cherish, the quotes that
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we love so much,
most often He was talking
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to an individual,
He was conversing,
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He wasn't
preaching behind a pulpit,
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He wasn't standing on
the side of a hillside
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talking to
thousands. He was conversing
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with an
individual. A person in pain,
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a person in need and
it occur to me through
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that my own
experiences that those of the
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kind of conversations
I need. And there are
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so many questions in
life that we wish God
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would answer for us.
So many things we don't
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understand
especially some of the pain
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and the loss that we
suffer, if only we could
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take a few minutes'
right here and sit down
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across from Jesus,
yes. And ask those questions
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and listen to His
answers. And that's what this,
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that's what this
book crew out from me,
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because we do
find those occasions
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in scripture, where are
like, like this occasion
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we're talking about
the man doesn't actually
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sit down and talk to
Jesus about forgiveness,
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but Jesus knows
what's on his heart,
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sure, He response to that, sure.
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So, it's no different
then, if He would have
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come and sat at
Jesus feet just the two
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of them and said,
how can I be forgiven
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for the things that I've done?
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There is one thing
we overlook sometimes
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in that story of
the paralyzed man.
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He wasn't paralyzed
because of an accident
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or a disease that just
happened to come on him.
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He apparently went
out and lived the party
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lifestyle, yeah. He
lived it up until he had
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ruined his health.
It was all of his fault
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that he is in that situation.
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And that, you know
that, that tends to change
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the terrain just a
little bit, particularly
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for the suppliant, for
the person who is coming
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to Christ because
you're saying to yourself
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here I go again you know,
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I've done it hundred
times and here and I'm,
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my current
condition is not anybody
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plotting against me,
I've done this to myself.
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And I got to
come dragging to Jesus
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with His load of guilt,
and really I think Satan
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would say you
can't go, you know,
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should you go again,
you did it to yourself.
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Why would you
take that to Jesus?
00:10:01.31\00:10:02.65
But I think your
thesis is that that's the
00:10:02.77\00:10:04.63
very person that needs to,
00:10:04.64\00:10:05.61
needs to come to Christ, yeah.
00:10:05.72\00:10:06.96
That's right, and
that is, and when the man
00:10:07.24\00:10:09.29
came to Jesus he
received the forgiveness
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he was looking for it,
yeah. Jesus didn't say,
00:10:12.29\00:10:14.05
well I don't know,
yeah, you brought this
00:10:14.06\00:10:16.39
on yourself, how many
times we can go around
00:10:16.40\00:10:18.27
the same, he just
forgave, yeah, released him
00:10:18.28\00:10:21.65
from that guilt and
indeed from His sickness.
00:10:21.66\00:10:23.74
Yeah, praise
God. You know Jerry,
00:10:23.75\00:10:25.09
I'm glad and I've
said this before in looking
00:10:25.10\00:10:27.80
at that is that Jesus
never has a bad day you know.
00:10:27.81\00:10:30.59
We serve a God that
doesn't have a bad day
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because we all have
days when we don't want
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to be bothered.
00:10:33.57\00:10:34.54
Whatever time you
come you get the same
00:10:36.46\00:10:38.84
consistent answer,
"He that cometh unto me
00:10:38.85\00:10:41.42
I will in no wise, I
will in no wise cast out."
00:10:41.43\00:10:44.06
And it's a very
beautiful, the story of
00:10:45.50\00:10:48.05
the paralytic in
Mark, as I'm looking
00:10:48.06\00:10:50.16
in notes is a, is a,
is a good one because it,
00:10:50.17\00:10:53.20
it speaks forgiveness
and are needed forgiveness
00:10:53.44\00:10:56.69
even more than physical healing.
00:10:56.70\00:10:58.34
In your own
experience have you seen that,
00:11:00.82\00:11:03.75
have you seen that
outplayed as far as people
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just being freed
through forgiveness
00:11:09.14\00:11:10.86
as apposed to physical healing.
00:11:10.87\00:11:12.84
You know, we
often pray for miracles
00:11:14.58\00:11:17.72
for healing,
when someone is ill?
00:11:17.73\00:11:19.28
And rightfully so,
God in His mercy and does
00:11:19.41\00:11:22.80
reach down and
heal those in need,
00:11:22.81\00:11:24.37
but we forget that
the act of forgiveness
00:11:25.69\00:11:27.83
is just as miraculous.
I do recall an occasion
00:11:28.40\00:11:32.63
when I was
pastoring, a man who, who,
00:11:32.64\00:11:37.12
well he was just one of
the more difficult people
00:11:38.66\00:11:40.45
in the church, he was
also always hard to get
00:11:40.46\00:11:43.53
along with, always
had a, a judgmental eye
00:11:43.54\00:11:46.32
on whatever was
happening and eventually
00:11:46.44\00:11:50.79
he spoke with me
about a terrible burden
00:11:51.44\00:11:54.36
of guilt he had
carried for years, for decades,
00:11:54.37\00:11:56.54
concerning his own
family. And when I could
00:11:57.09\00:12:00.18
assure him that God
forgave him of that,
00:12:00.19\00:12:02.18
if he was
repenting, he turned into a
00:12:02.19\00:12:05.09
different person. You
know, the kind of a loving
00:12:05.10\00:12:08.69
kindness that flowed
out of him after that
00:12:08.70\00:12:10.35
was miraculous. It
was no different then
00:12:10.36\00:12:13.13
if he had been
paralyzed and lying on a cot,
00:12:13.14\00:12:15.45
God changed his
whole life through
00:12:15.66\00:12:18.22
the miracle of forgiveness.
00:12:18.30\00:12:19.36
Yeah, praise God. You
know, and there have been
00:12:19.37\00:12:22.27
other times when
I've referred to James
00:12:22.28\00:12:24.08
chapter 4 verse 1,
which basically asked
00:12:24.09\00:12:26.59
the question
where do wars come from,
00:12:26.60\00:12:28.47
where does strife come from?
00:12:28.48\00:12:29.68
And it's
rhetorical question because
00:12:30.92\00:12:32.86
he answers it by
saying doesn't it come from
00:12:32.87\00:12:35.20
the internal
strive. You know, the reason
00:12:35.21\00:12:36.98
you can't get
along with your neighbor
00:12:36.99\00:12:38.20
or your husband,
your wife is because
00:12:38.21\00:12:39.68
you are really
having trouble getting along
00:12:39.69\00:12:41.52
with yourself. And I
think a lot of that maybe
00:12:41.53\00:12:43.67
generated by feelings of guilt,
00:12:43.68\00:12:46.46
feelings of inadequacy,
things that were done
00:12:46.47\00:12:49.33
that haven't been
resolved, you know,
00:12:49.34\00:12:52.16
or taken or taken
care of. So, if I can't get
00:12:52.17\00:12:54.82
along with me then
I'm gonna have a hard
00:12:54.83\00:12:56.37
time getting along
with you, particularly,
00:12:56.38\00:12:58.14
if I see mirrored in
you the same problems
00:12:58.35\00:13:00.77
that I'm dealing
with myself. Yeah, yeah,
00:13:00.78\00:13:03.51
so guilt can be a
very, very destructive thing.
00:13:03.52\00:13:06.09
I like the idea that
you propose that forgiving
00:13:06.10\00:13:11.17
is as big a miracle
as, as is saying get out
00:13:11.49\00:13:15.51
of that bed and walk.
And well Jesus did that.
00:13:15.52\00:13:18.40
We forget that
somehow we, we forgiveness
00:13:18.41\00:13:21.13
has become too common to us,
00:13:21.14\00:13:22.60
and so its like okay,
I'm sorry for my sins,
00:13:22.61\00:13:24.28
God forgives me and we
go around as if you know,
00:13:24.29\00:13:27.59
that was just a
normal thing. Well,
00:13:27.60\00:13:29.01
in fact it's a, as
much a miracle as somebody
00:13:29.02\00:13:32.24
rising up from a cot,
it is nothing less than
00:13:32.25\00:13:35.11
an act of God to
release you from the guilt
00:13:35.12\00:13:37.80
because of your, your request
00:13:38.38\00:13:41.04
and your faith in Jesus.
00:13:41.05\00:13:42.25
Yes, and have you
ever noticed or seen,
00:13:42.26\00:13:45.47
and this is where
we go to Christ and
00:13:45.62\00:13:48.22
we're forgiven.
It's as though we lay our
00:13:48.23\00:13:49.98
burden at his feet and
then we leave and we pick
00:13:49.99\00:13:52.29
that burden up again
and walk with it again.
00:13:52.30\00:13:53.69
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I suspect as hard as
00:13:54.23\00:13:58.86
it is sometimes to
forgive others for a certain
00:13:58.87\00:14:01.96
class of person
forgiving yourself is also
00:14:01.97\00:14:04.26
fairly difficult. And
it goes back to us not
00:14:04.27\00:14:06.70
really believing
that God will forgive,
00:14:06.71\00:14:08.53
will forgive what
we've done because you know,
00:14:08.54\00:14:11.29
you can go through the emotions,
00:14:11.30\00:14:12.39
but when we reach
the point of actually
00:14:12.65\00:14:14.71
turning it over to
God something inside us,
00:14:14.72\00:14:16.94
or beside us on our
shoulder it says, you know,
00:14:16.95\00:14:19.47
God can't forgive
you for that, yeah.
00:14:19.48\00:14:21.12
You know, He is not
gonna do that. And so,
00:14:21.13\00:14:23.66
we pick that burden
up again and continue
00:14:23.67\00:14:25.94
to carry it around when all God
00:14:25.95\00:14:27.25
wants us to do is lay it down.
00:14:27.26\00:14:28.55
Define, let's define
some terms now Jerry.
00:14:29.66\00:14:31.92
One, in your writing,
define for me, forgiveness
00:14:31.93\00:14:36.51
Forgiveness to me is,
I would say it's the act
00:14:38.97\00:14:45.07
of taking away the
guilt of what you've done.
00:14:45.08\00:14:48.62
God doesn't go back
and rewrite the past,
00:14:50.59\00:14:52.36
so that you
didn't do anything wrong.
00:14:52.65\00:14:54.60
The memory of it
doesn't disappear from our
00:14:54.95\00:14:56.93
minds at this time,
yes. But what God takes
00:14:56.94\00:15:00.09
away then is the
guilt for having done it.
00:15:00.10\00:15:02.53
And He doesn't hold that
guilt against us anymore.
00:15:04.14\00:15:07.30
And if we can forgive
ourselves, we don't have
00:15:07.75\00:15:09.79
to hold it against
us either, yes, yes.
00:15:09.80\00:15:11.99
Of course with the
Christian forgiveness for
00:15:12.27\00:15:15.38
yourself is always
tied to your willingness
00:15:15.39\00:15:17.30
to forgive others,
we can't, we can't take
00:15:17.31\00:15:19.35
out that part of
the equation either,
00:15:19.36\00:15:20.73
because if you
can't release your anger,
00:15:21.18\00:15:23.56
your pain towards someone else,
00:15:23.57\00:15:25.94
then I think it's
like you said earlier
00:15:26.21\00:15:28.16
you won't ever
really forgive yourself.
00:15:28.66\00:15:30.16
Yeah, yeah, we've
assumed that everyone
00:15:30.17\00:15:33.20
here knows what
we're talking about when
00:15:33.21\00:15:35.59
we use the term
guilt. Wrestle with a working
00:15:35.60\00:15:39.63
definition of guilt
for me. It is you know,
00:15:39.64\00:15:41.90
it's one of those kind
of words that you think
00:15:41.91\00:15:43.39
everybody knows,
you just know it is,
00:15:43.40\00:15:44.96
but unpackage that a little bit?
00:15:45.09\00:15:47.42
Well, we're familiar
with the legal definition
00:15:48.32\00:15:51.27
of guilt, in that
you've committed a crime,
00:15:51.28\00:15:53.86
you're guilty of it
judged by your peers
00:15:54.27\00:15:56.73
and therefore you've a
penalty that you must pay.
00:15:56.74\00:15:58.88
A guilt being either
admission that you have
00:15:59.34\00:16:01.75
committed this
crime or evidence that
00:16:01.76\00:16:03.69
you did in spite of
your, your testimony.
00:16:03.70\00:16:07.00
I think for us as
Christians guilt is about
00:16:08.15\00:16:10.83
we recognize that
we've fallen away from
00:16:13.05\00:16:15.87
what God wanted
for us. We've made
00:16:15.88\00:16:17.93
bad decisions. We
have committed acts of an
00:16:17.94\00:16:24.55
inappropriate nature.
We know that we're not
00:16:24.56\00:16:26.72
living the way God
wants us to and the guilt
00:16:26.73\00:16:29.00
we feel. Guilt is the,
it grows out of what God
00:16:29.01\00:16:34.42
put inside us to
steer us toward Him.
00:16:34.43\00:16:38.29
And when we're
leaving that path,
00:16:38.30\00:16:40.50
when we're going in another way,
00:16:40.51\00:16:41.69
something inside us
hurt, something inside us
00:16:41.70\00:16:43.97
feels wrong. Now,
this isn't right for me,
00:16:43.98\00:16:46.72
this isn't the way it should be,
00:16:46.73\00:16:48.07
and the guilt is what we feel.
00:16:48.86\00:16:50.17
Drawing from your,
your, your, previous answer,
00:16:51.00\00:16:53.35
can I ask this question
then, is there in your own
00:16:53.63\00:16:56.10
mind good guilt and bad guilt
00:16:56.11\00:16:58.96
or is guilt always bad?
00:16:58.97\00:17:00.45
I think we can, we can
categorize guilt as good
00:17:02.24\00:17:05.28
and that it, it's
a reflection of our
00:17:05.29\00:17:08.11
conscious saying this
is not the path I really
00:17:08.12\00:17:10.59
want to be on.
I'm going somewhere
00:17:10.60\00:17:12.55
I don't really want to
go, I am becoming someone
00:17:12.56\00:17:14.31
I don't really want
to be, and guilt sharpens
00:17:14.32\00:17:17.13
us to that, to
that acknowledgment,
00:17:17.14\00:17:20.50
this isn't it. But
at that point it's,
00:17:20.51\00:17:22.47
it's positive because
it's driving you, right,
00:17:22.48\00:17:25.09
to see a solution.
It's saying the state
00:17:25.10\00:17:28.71
we're in is not a good
state, we need to find a
00:17:28.72\00:17:31.73
better state; we need
to do something to get
00:17:31.74\00:17:33.48
out where we are. At what point
00:17:33.49\00:17:35.27
can that become, become bad?
00:17:35.46\00:17:37.54
It becomes bad
when we, when we can't
00:17:38.43\00:17:41.82
let go of it. When
it, it when we can't lay
00:17:41.83\00:17:46.25
it down at the cross
of Jesus and leave it
00:17:46.26\00:17:49.29
with Him, but we find
ourselves dragging that
00:17:49.30\00:17:52.63
burden from year to year, yeah.
00:17:52.64\00:17:54.37
And it confuses
Christians a lot because
00:17:56.65\00:17:58.89
we very much teach
and stress the idea
00:17:58.96\00:18:04.26
of repentance. We
must truly be sorry for
00:18:04.27\00:18:06.38
you've done and
turn away from that.
00:18:06.39\00:18:08.12
And too many times
we've a hard time believing
00:18:08.95\00:18:12.03
repentance has an end you know,
00:18:12.04\00:18:14.39
I did this thing you
know, I offended my wife
00:18:14.40\00:18:16.61
in some manner
therefore I must repent
00:18:16.62\00:18:18.21
for that everyday now
for the rest of our lives,
00:18:18.22\00:18:20.42
yeah, and that's,
that's not true repentance.
00:18:20.98\00:18:24.92
Repentance is a
moment in time when you
00:18:24.93\00:18:26.98
acknowledge you're
wrong, your guilt and then
00:18:27.07\00:18:29.81
you let it go, yeah.
And you move forward.
00:18:29.82\00:18:31.51
Yeah, yeah, see just
I think you said a very,
00:18:31.52\00:18:33.24
very pointed
statement. You repent and then
00:18:33.47\00:18:37.24
you let it go, if you,
if you circle that mountain
00:18:37.25\00:18:40.05
forever then you
haven't really repented,
00:18:40.06\00:18:42.41
no, repented, and
you've really forgiven
00:18:42.42\00:18:44.13
yourself for the
act. There is only so many
00:18:44.14\00:18:47.02
mea culpas you know,
that you that you can do,
00:18:47.03\00:18:49.25
that's right,
after that it's not,
00:18:49.26\00:18:50.45
it's not healthy.
The reason I asked that
00:18:50.46\00:18:53.53
former question was
because I'm thinking
00:18:53.54\00:18:55.26
of two people
who did heinous acts,
00:18:55.27\00:18:58.03
one was Judas,
the other was Peter.
00:18:58.04\00:19:00.51
I don't know if
Judas' sin was any worse than
00:19:02.07\00:19:06.13
Peter's. Judas pointed
him on the crowd you know,
00:19:06.14\00:19:11.37
and got paid for it.
Peter denied he ever knew
00:19:11.38\00:19:14.95
him of the two
Peter's carrying a lot of
00:19:14.96\00:19:17.97
weight there, yet
Judas hanged himself,
00:19:17.98\00:19:20.84
his guilt turned inward.
Peter became an incredible
00:19:21.13\00:19:26.44
personage for Jesus.
00:19:26.76\00:19:29.23
Where is the
difference guilt wise?
00:19:29.83\00:19:32.62
And I'm kind of
throwing that on you,
00:19:32.63\00:19:33.93
you know
suddenly. That's alright.
00:19:33.94\00:19:36.21
I think you're,
you're very right,
00:19:37.98\00:19:39.73
they both in the
last hours of Jesus life,
00:19:39.74\00:19:43.08
they both turned
their back on him,
00:19:43.09\00:19:44.50
and surrendered him
to the, to the enemy.
00:19:45.31\00:19:48.61
And really, they most
both, must both have gone
00:19:52.45\00:19:57.54
out from their
thinking that this was the end
00:19:57.55\00:19:59.47
in terms of their
relationship to Jesus.
00:20:00.06\00:20:01.96
Judas must surely have thought,
00:20:01.97\00:20:03.37
no doubt he had
some feelings of greed
00:20:04.76\00:20:06.97
and avarice as he
counted those coins,
00:20:06.98\00:20:10.63
but he must have
thought in his mind that
00:20:11.48\00:20:13.23
he was in the end
gonna be doing Jesus a favor.
00:20:13.24\00:20:15.95
He was gonna be
pushing him to declare
00:20:15.96\00:20:18.13
who He was, precisely,
to throw off those changes.
00:20:18.14\00:20:20.18
And when Judas finally
realized that that wasn't
00:20:20.88\00:20:23.19
gonna happen, he
must have been overwhelmed
00:20:23.20\00:20:26.46
by the guilt of
what he had caused.
00:20:26.47\00:20:28.06
But Peter was no different,
00:20:28.86\00:20:30.37
he had sworn only
hours before that he would
00:20:30.91\00:20:33.29
never deny Jesus and
yet the first time someone
00:20:33.30\00:20:36.38
challenges him, he
turns his back on him.
00:20:36.39\00:20:38.39
So, both, they were
both of them knowing
00:20:38.79\00:20:41.69
that the relationship
they thought they would
00:20:41.70\00:20:43.67
had with Jesus was over, yes.
00:20:43.68\00:20:45.30
Then what they are gonna
do with that, yeah, yeah.
00:20:45.55\00:20:47.77
And I think the only
difference could have
00:20:47.98\00:20:49.83
been Judas had never
let the love of Jesus change
00:20:49.84\00:20:56.04
his heart. Judas had
been the kind of person
00:20:56.05\00:21:01.61
who might have behaved properly,
00:21:01.62\00:21:03.08
to could fit
into the right crowd,
00:21:03.09\00:21:04.57
who did the right
things, said the right things.
00:21:04.83\00:21:06.78
But his heart had
never been touched by
00:21:07.35\00:21:09.23
Jesus' love. Where
as Peter did many of the
00:21:09.24\00:21:12.79
wrong things, always
spoke up too soon, yeah.
00:21:12.80\00:21:15.70
He was forever
putting his foot in it.
00:21:15.71\00:21:17.24
But he had felt
Jesus love; he had known
00:21:17.57\00:21:21.91
that Jesus cared about him.
00:21:22.45\00:21:24.81
And his heart
had responded to that
00:21:25.32\00:21:27.09
and I think that's
what, what pulled him back
00:21:27.10\00:21:29.10
to Jesus. He knew that
kind of a life changing
00:21:29.11\00:21:31.68
love was there and he
wanted to go back and say,
00:21:31.69\00:21:34.82
yeah, and, and turn
his life over to it again.
00:21:34.83\00:21:36.73
Yeah, and I think
if you hit upon a very
00:21:36.74\00:21:39.64
important point and
that's what I was heading
00:21:39.65\00:21:41.51
that Judas and
Peter both made mistakes
00:21:41.93\00:21:48.46
for which they had
remorse, they both were
00:21:48.47\00:21:51.21
remorseful. One turned
it in, the other gave it
00:21:51.22\00:21:55.68
to Jesus. So, that it
occurs to me that going
00:21:55.69\00:21:59.55
full circle where we
started out that the cure
00:21:59.56\00:22:01.88
for guilt is giving
it to Christ, and an
00:22:01.89\00:22:06.25
understanding of
the fact that whatever
00:22:06.26\00:22:08.28
you've done, first
Jesus is not caught unawares,
00:22:08.29\00:22:12.57
He is not surprised,
and if the truth we know
00:22:12.94\00:22:17.22
the devil is not
surprised either.
00:22:17.23\00:22:18.46
The only person
that maybe surprised
00:22:18.47\00:22:19.66
is you because you
don't really know yourself,
00:22:19.67\00:22:21.22
but, but the, the
road to healing is paved
00:22:21.67\00:22:25.73
with surrender of
whatever it is to Jesus,
00:22:25.79\00:22:29.66
given the knowledge
that when you come to him,
00:22:30.22\00:22:32.39
he will know why
he's cast you out,
00:22:32.40\00:22:33.79
in regards of what
you, what you've done,
00:22:33.80\00:22:35.27
would you, would you agree?
00:22:35.28\00:22:36.28
I would, I would, I
picture either of those
00:22:36.29\00:22:38.70
stories, now, Judas
or Peter doing what we do
00:22:38.71\00:22:41.99
so many times, or
suppose Judas hadn't hanged
00:22:42.00\00:22:45.08
himself, suppose Judas
just carried that burden
00:22:45.09\00:22:48.12
of guilt around and
every time he met with his
00:22:48.13\00:22:50.25
former
associates. Oh! You all know
00:22:50.26\00:22:52.61
what I've done, I've,
I've been so guilty I,
00:22:52.83\00:22:54.67
you know, I sold
Jesus, I can never be
00:22:55.03\00:22:58.14
forgiven, and he
spend his whole life holding
00:22:58.15\00:23:00.24
onto that guilt. He
would never have been anyone
00:23:00.25\00:23:02.44
but a miserable person, correct.
00:23:02.45\00:23:04.86
And in same way if
Peter had done that,
00:23:04.87\00:23:06.26
if he had assumed he
couldn't been forgiven,
00:23:06.27\00:23:08.06
if he had, if he had
thrown this guilt over
00:23:08.07\00:23:11.04
his shoulder and carry
it the rest of his life,
00:23:11.05\00:23:12.75
he would have always
been the one who denied
00:23:12.96\00:23:16.44
Jesus and, you
couldn't come back,
00:23:16.45\00:23:19.82
and yet in
either case Jesus would
00:23:19.83\00:23:22.54
have forgiven,
yeah, when they ask.
00:23:22.55\00:23:24.41
Yeah, it occurs to me
Jerry that carrying around
00:23:24.42\00:23:28.38
the load of guilt, one
is almost a slap on the
00:23:28.39\00:23:31.39
face of Jesus,
because he lives, he exists
00:23:31.40\00:23:35.43
to free you from that.
So, to carry it is almost
00:23:35.44\00:23:38.64
to say your
sacrifice is not, is not good
00:23:38.65\00:23:41.84
enough for me. And
how that must wound
00:23:41.85\00:23:43.87
heart of God is like
you've money in the bank,
00:23:43.88\00:23:46.15
and you're living on
the street, and a banker
00:23:46.16\00:23:48.98
is chasing you
and you're saying,
00:23:48.99\00:23:49.96
listen write a
check. You know, you've got,
00:23:49.97\00:23:51.96
you've got money in the
bank just write a check,
00:23:51.97\00:23:53.80
and you, I'm not
writing that check.
00:23:53.81\00:23:55.29
Well, why not, the
money is there. I just,
00:23:55.56\00:23:58.46
I rather live on the
street. So, to carry the
00:23:58.47\00:24:00.91
guilt you know
despite your tremendous
00:24:00.92\00:24:03.78
sacrifice that
Christ has already made.
00:24:03.79\00:24:05.51
I thought that the
other day, I was on a plane
00:24:06.72\00:24:08.31
and you know, I put
my bag up in the overhead
00:24:09.51\00:24:12.36
storage, and this
older woman was there next
00:24:12.37\00:24:16.27
to me struggling with her bag.
00:24:16.28\00:24:17.58
And I offered to help
her, put the bag up there
00:24:17.95\00:24:20.15
and she snapped and
pushed away and said,
00:24:20.49\00:24:23.01
oh! No, like don't
touch my bag, yes, yes,
00:24:23.02\00:24:25.67
I know who you are,
but don't touch my stuff.
00:24:25.68\00:24:26.97
And so, here I'm
unable to help her at all,
00:24:27.50\00:24:29.96
she struggles and tries
to keep put it in place.
00:24:29.97\00:24:32.42
I could have
helped I didn't you know,
00:24:32.86\00:24:35.29
I didn't have any
intention of injuring
00:24:35.30\00:24:36.65
her back, but
because she refused,
00:24:36.66\00:24:38.69
I couldn't help her
with her burden at all.
00:24:38.70\00:24:40.39
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in fact,
00:24:40.40\00:24:42.39
like you said
it's, somewhat offensive,
00:24:42.66\00:24:44.93
it's like, I'm not
good enough to even touch
00:24:44.94\00:24:46.80
her bag, right, I'm
just trying to help you lady,
00:24:46.81\00:24:49.51
yeah that kind
of thing. But, yeah,
00:24:49.52\00:24:51.05
I think God must be
sometimes feeling in a
00:24:51.06\00:24:53.33
similar way
that I could do this,
00:24:53.34\00:24:55.84
but you've to let me.
And I see at that point
00:24:55.85\00:24:59.19
were guilt which could
be a positive thing becomes
00:24:59.20\00:25:03.77
almost a carcinogenic
kind of Satan used thing
00:25:03.78\00:25:06.14
because it keeps
you from the source of,
00:25:06.15\00:25:07.94
of your help and
your, and your strength.
00:25:07.95\00:25:10.31
And I think you see that
a lot in people who carry
00:25:10.85\00:25:13.45
a burden of guilt from
childhood often for things
00:25:13.46\00:25:16.28
that were not their
fault, yes, whether its the
00:25:16.29\00:25:17.96
divorce of their
parents or some other
00:25:17.97\00:25:19.51
unfortunate incident
and they, they feel guilty
00:25:19.87\00:25:22.73
and they carry that
burden into adulthood
00:25:22.74\00:25:24.70
and they can't ever
have normal relationship,
00:25:24.71\00:25:26.56
they can't ever grow
and go on because the,
00:25:27.07\00:25:29.23
the guilt is just
holding them back, yeah.
00:25:29.24\00:25:30.96
And Satan has
turned it into an anchor on
00:25:31.26\00:25:33.27
their souls that just
almost won't come loose.
00:25:33.28\00:25:36.49
Yeah, yeah, I'm
thinking you know,
00:25:36.50\00:25:39.05
I'm thinking of
people in, in my ministry,
00:25:39.06\00:25:41.21
in the time that I
pastored, who carried
00:25:41.65\00:25:43.44
around a load of
guilt and were never able to
00:25:43.45\00:25:46.41
really free
themselves from that.
00:25:46.42\00:25:47.87
And we're also never
able to really enjoy the
00:25:48.26\00:25:52.69
salvation
experience because you've had
00:25:52.70\00:25:54.82
this cloud that
there were always under and
00:25:54.83\00:25:57.98
this fearful
expectation because they were
00:25:57.99\00:26:00.06
not free in, in
Christ. Yeah, how long,
00:26:00.07\00:26:03.27
how long a chapter
is this in the book?
00:26:03.28\00:26:04.88
Oh! It's, I think
it's two chapters together
00:26:05.86\00:26:10.15
is probably 12 pages
altogether in the book,
00:26:10.16\00:26:13.19
but each of the
chapters in the book form as
00:26:13.20\00:26:16.24
some thought
questions afterward to make you
00:26:16.25\00:26:18.72
sort of go
through these ideas and,
00:26:18.73\00:26:20.67
and think of your
own life, because like
00:26:21.13\00:26:23.55
you said at the
start we all carry burdens
00:26:23.56\00:26:25.80
of guilt, they may not
be tremendous ones, yes,
00:26:25.81\00:26:27.82
we may be able to
ignore the most days,
00:26:27.83\00:26:29.72
but they weigh us
down in the dark moments
00:26:29.73\00:26:32.67
of our life. And when
we're hearing that voice
00:26:32.68\00:26:35.86
of Satan would
spring out have no good and,
00:26:35.87\00:26:37.91
never were any
good, no in that sense one
00:26:37.92\00:26:40.77
ever you did,
whatever that's caused you
00:26:40.78\00:26:42.30
such guilt, yeah.
And God wants to take
00:26:42.31\00:26:44.92
that all away; we
just have to let it go.
00:26:44.93\00:26:47.49
If someone came to you,
you had five minutes to,
00:26:47.78\00:26:51.10
to help them and they say, I'm,
00:26:51.11\00:26:52.89
I'm just feeling
down, I know I've done some
00:26:53.31\00:26:56.69
stuff is unresolved
and I just can't seem
00:26:56.70\00:26:59.16
to get free. What
would your quick course
00:26:59.17\00:27:02.45
one on one be
relieve them self from guilt.
00:27:02.46\00:27:05.48
What would your prescription be?
00:27:05.49\00:27:07.10
You know, the quick
answer is just to say okay
00:27:11.32\00:27:12.73
let's kneel down
right here and we'll ask God
00:27:12.74\00:27:14.75
for forgiveness. And
you know, you could do that,
00:27:15.67\00:27:17.97
but chances are
the person has tried
00:27:17.98\00:27:19.49
that before. I think
you've to go back to what
00:27:19.50\00:27:22.48
we were saying here
and that's what I would
00:27:22.49\00:27:24.07
want to do to point out to them.
00:27:24.08\00:27:25.30
That this is a
miracle; you're asking God to
00:27:26.20\00:27:28.84
change the laws of
time and space for you,
00:27:28.85\00:27:31.24
yeah, to change the
nature of your own heart,
00:27:31.25\00:27:33.07
yes. But he would do
that, if you're ask him.
00:27:33.08\00:27:36.14
And I think Jerry
that's the perfect note for us
00:27:37.69\00:27:40.23
to end on that it is a miracle,
00:27:40.24\00:27:43.04
but it will be
done if we ask Jesus.
00:27:43.05\00:27:46.23
He is still in the
miracle working business,
00:27:46.24\00:27:48.26
all we've to do is ask
and He will do that for us.
00:27:48.67\00:27:51.93
Thank you so very
much for being with us.
00:27:52.22\00:27:54.05
And until we are together again,
00:27:54.54\00:27:56.95
may I wish you
all the best in Jesus.
00:27:57.39\00:27:59.51