Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Linda Brawner
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000188
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00:31 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn, and welcome
00:32 to Issues and Answers. You know life is full 00:35 of issues and the Bible is full of answers. 00:39 We need to learn to look to God as the 00:42 one who is our problem solver. 00:44 And I think that we have a very 00:46 interesting program for you today because 00:48 we have a very interesting guest, 00:50 and I'd like to introduce her just now. 00:52 I like to welcome Linda Brawner. 00:54 Linda, thank you so much for driving in 00:57 from Mansfield, Ohio, that's correct. Yes. 01:00 Well, I'm so thrilled you are here with us today. 01:03 And Linda has written a precious book, 01:05 a book that actually I read last night when 01:08 I told her I was absolutely exhausted 01:11 having only two hours of sleep. 01:13 And I thought am I going able to stay 01:15 awake and read this book, and the moment 01:17 I opened it, I found it to be 01:20 humorous, moving, you're a delightful writer. 01:24 Thank you. I wanted to start this 01:27 program with a scripture, and I think 01:29 you're going to appreciate this 01:30 scripture, I'm sure you're familiar with it. 01:33 The scripture is Psalms 3:3 that says 01:36 "But you O Lord, are a shield for me, 01:39 my glory, and the lifter of my head." 01:42 And Linda, I know that for you God has 01:45 been the lifter of your head because you 01:47 went through a very difficult time with 01:50 your husband having a chronic illness, 01:52 and that's what we'd like to talk about today 01:55 is your passage way if you will through this 02:00 chronic illness, and in the grief 02:02 recovery after his death. 02:04 But first, let me ask you this. 02:06 You became a Seventh-day 02:08 Adventist when you were in college. 02:11 Right, just I was, actually several 02:14 months after I graduated college. 02:16 I have met a Seventh-day girl there and I had 02:20 already come to know Jesus Christ as my 02:22 Savior, as my best friend. And I was searching 02:25 for what is truth? How do we follow him? 02:30 And she invited me to Church, just invited 02:34 me to Church, and there I found answers. 02:36 And about a year later I joined the Seventh 02:38 day Adventist Church. That's wonderful now, 02:41 you though started off, you told me that 02:44 when for you, when you started turning to Jesus. 02:48 It really did start off with an intimate 02:51 relationship that developed quickly. 02:53 Yes, it did. During high school and 02:56 college, I have met Christians who came 02:59 across just thinking they were better than 03:01 me, not because they knew Jesus but 03:04 because they went to Church and they did 03:05 all the right things. And so when I started 03:10 you know asking what is the Bible about? 03:13 Is the Bible the source of truth? 03:16 Is there sin that we need to be saved from? 03:19 And then of course once you answer that 03:21 question, is Jesus Christ our Savior. 03:25 I had to take a hard look at what I was 03:27 getting into because I did not want to be 03:29 of those people who went around, 03:32 I'm better than you because I go to Church. 03:34 Right, amen. Well, I can tell from reading 03:37 your book which by the way is entitled 03:39 Stay Sweet. No, Keep Sweet. 03:41 Keep Sweet, excuse me Keep Sweet, 03:44 and I can tell from your book that you 03:48 have a very intimate relationship with the Lord. 03:51 And it's something that you really do 03:53 consider him a very close friend. 03:55 And one that you can reason with, you can 03:57 get upset with him, and he understands, 04:00 yes. And I love that about how you write, 04:02 and I love that about your relationship with God. 04:05 Now, let's talk about your husband. 04:09 You met a man and from the way you 04:12 started, I thought it was late in life, 04:13 but you were 20... No, I was, it was late, 04:17 I was 29, 29, 28 and I turned 29 a couple 04:21 months later, and I had asked the Lord 04:24 just the day before I met him. 04:27 Lord, it would be nice to be engaged by the 04:30 time I'm 30. I thought it was too much to ask 04:33 to be married by the time I was 30. 04:34 But we did meet the next day and we 04:37 married six weeks short of my 30th birthday. 04:39 Oh praise God. He answers prayers. 04:41 Yes, he does. So this relationship, 04:45 your husband, I know you prayed before you married. 04:48 It was very important to you, that you and 04:50 your husband would spend eternity together. 04:53 Yes, it was. And with Jerry, I could sense 04:58 that he wasn't sure God loved him, 05:01 wasn't sure God was his friend. 05:05 He wasn't a bad man in anyway; it's just 05:07 that a lot of us underestimate our worth. 05:11 And so I said Lord, you know if my 05:14 marrying him will make a saving 05:16 difference in his life, I want this. 05:19 And if he is not going to be in the Kingdom 05:22 forever, do whatever it takes to keep this 05:24 marriage from happening. And I basically gave 05:27 God permission to hit between the eyes but 05:29 two by four if that's what it took. 05:32 Well, you married him and it wasn't too 05:35 long thereafter, as you said in the book. 05:37 As soon as you figured out what 05:39 actually causes babies to come along. 05:42 Yes, our daughter Kelly was born. 05:44 Okay, and she's been a great blessing. 05:46 From the time she was born, people 05:48 would stop me in the store and fuss over 05:51 what a pretty smile she had. 05:52 What a happy baby she was, and I just loved it. 05:56 You know sometimes people worry about 05:59 neglecting the mother, but I have people who 06:01 wouldn't give me the time of day paying 06:03 attention because of this baby in my cart. 06:06 Well, now about thirteen years into 06:08 your marriage, your husband started 06:11 changing and you at first 06:13 were not sure what was going on? 06:15 Actually it started sooner than, he 06:17 always seemed, from my perspective a little 06:21 lazy, not terribly motivated. 06:26 He was diabetic though all that time, 06:29 and I did not realize how much diabetes 06:31 was affecting his overall health. 06:35 Diabetes is a drain on all the systems of the 06:37 body and by the time we've been married 06:41 13 years, he went to the doctor. 06:44 They ordered heart test and discovered he 06:45 needed open heart surgery. 06:48 What was your reaction to that? 06:49 I was terrified. How about your husband? 06:54 Yeah, he was terrified too. 06:56 It was, I don't know how we, you know, 06:59 but this time we pulled together. 07:02 There have been other bumps in the road in 07:05 fairly recent history that kind of pulled us apart. 07:08 And this one we pulled together, and 07:10 we were frightened together. 07:12 And I think what pulled us together is 07:15 we both were turning to God. 07:17 Praise the Lord. So he gets this report, 07:21 that they're going to go in and cut through 07:23 his chest bones and really it was a graphic 07:28 description that you gave in the book of 07:30 the type of surgery that he was going to 07:31 have to have, yes. But they assumed that 07:35 he would be back on his feet within just a 07:37 few weeks, right. Right, they said he'd 07:40 be out of the hospital in six days, 07:44 and that because he had to do heavy 07:45 lifting as part of his job, it would be six 07:47 months before he went to work but 07:49 pretty much he'd be right as rain in a month. 07:52 And that's not the way it turned out, so why 07:54 don't you give us a short synopsis of what happened. 07:56 He spent a month in the hospital. 07:59 Normally you're on a breathing tube 08:00 between 24 to 30 hours. He was on five or six days. 08:06 When he was off of that, his mind wasn't 08:10 quite right because of all the trauma to the body. 08:13 So he didn't do what he could do in terms 08:15 of physical therapy. His kidneys had failed 08:19 from being under anesthetics for so 08:20 long, and he ended up on dialysis 08:23 most of his life. And it was quite a 08:27 different picture than what they painted. 08:29 So when he did come home from the 08:31 hospital, he came home, and he was a 08:33 fairly large man. Yes. And he came home as 08:37 someone who is requiring dialysis and 08:40 requiring a lot of care, yes. 08:42 Something you said that just touched me 08:45 in the book was you said that you loved 08:48 him enough not to do everything for him. 08:52 Explain what you mean? Yeah, that was hard, 08:54 one of the things that kept Jerry as alive as 08:57 long as he was and kept him enjoying life 08:59 for as long as he did was that he would try 09:02 to do for himself everything he could. 09:05 His strength levels varied from sometimes 09:08 day to day, week to week and sometimes 09:10 it was a real struggle for him to 09:12 get out of the chair. I would sit there and 09:15 every nerve is you know eager, ready to 09:19 help, that's my nature, I'm waitress, I'm used 09:22 to helping people. And I would sit there 09:24 and I would wait for him to ask because 09:27 sometimes it would take two or three 09:28 times, but he would get up and we both 09:31 knew that his body was stronger for 09:34 having made those three or four attempts 09:36 to get out of the chair all by himself. 09:38 I think there is such a great lesson in that 09:40 because so many of us try to do you know 09:45 for our loved ones, when we don't think 09:46 they can do for themselves. 09:48 But sometimes when someone is really 09:50 very ill, then it's a difficult. 09:53 You can actually overdo for someone, 09:55 and they become so dependent upon you 09:57 that they're no longer trying. 09:59 So you went through three years of people 10:02 in your Church, and people in the family 10:04 saying he belongs in a rest home. 10:07 This is too much for you, and actually you 10:10 went through an experience just prior 10:13 to this diagnosis and his chronic illness 10:18 that made people think it would 10:21 overwhelm you once again. So let's back up, okay. 10:24 And talk about what happened before your 10:27 husband was diagnosed. I have had a nervous 10:31 breakdown. I did not cope well with the 10:34 death of my father. It became a wedge 10:36 between me and God. I did not talk to God 10:39 about it. Probably the best thing I could 10:42 done was just gone ahead and got 10:44 really mad and given God a piece of my mind. 10:48 He's big, he loves us all the time, he doesn't 10:51 get petty or retaliate, and he already knows 10:55 what we feel, what he think. 10:57 So we might as well tell him. Amen. 11:03 And the breakdown, the breakdown was 11:05 the visible sign of what I'd been through 11:09 but the thing that my Christian brothers and 11:12 sisters had a hard time understand was 11:14 actually it was also a beginning of faith. 11:17 I finally admitted I can't do this alone. 11:21 I need God's help; I need the 11:23 help of trained physicians. 11:25 And when you started, when you had 11:29 this breakdown didn't this also become to 11:31 drive a wedge between you and your husband at first. 11:37 Actually no, when I actually had the 11:39 breakdown I actually sought help up until 11:41 then yes it was a wedge because my 11:43 husband knew something was 11:44 wrong, and he had no clue. 11:47 You had shut down emotionally during 11:48 the breathing process, yes, and you were 11:50 building a wall not only that was divider 11:53 between you and God, but between you and 11:55 your husband. Yes, okay, yes. 11:57 And when I actually had the breakdown, 12:00 he was out of town which was rare for him. 12:02 He was visiting a foster brother, 12:05 and when he came back he said Linda, 12:08 I will do anything to make you happy. 12:10 Praise the Lord. You know, but it 12:13 wasn't what I needed. I mean I'm glad he 12:15 was willing, but it's amazing what clarity 12:19 God will give us in the times when we are 12:21 just crushed. I looked at him and said Jerry, 12:25 you can't make me happy. You can only love me, 12:29 and I meant only in the sense of simply or 12:32 this is the one thing that will help me. 12:36 It was what I did, what I didn't do for 12:39 him when he was sick. He couldn't try to put 12:43 everything on a silver platter and hand it to me. 12:46 I had to mentally get up out of bed and 12:50 walk to the refrigerator or mentally walk to 12:53 the bathroom. I had to take care of 12:55 myself to a certain degree. 12:57 You know I think you said something that 12:58 was insightful in the book. She wrote that not 13:02 only can man not make us happy, but 13:04 God can make us happy. Happiness is a choice, yes. 13:08 Happiness is something that God is the giver 13:10 as James 1:17 says of every good and 13:13 perfect gift, but no matter what gifts God 13:17 bestows upon us. No matter how much 13:20 your husband could do to try to make you 13:22 happy if you choose not to be happy, 13:25 you're not going to be, right. 13:27 So you had, God gave you such great insight 13:30 during this time, and as you turned around 13:33 from that you hadn't been really recovered 13:36 from that depression too long before. 13:38 You know I actually had not recovered 13:41 because part of what caused my breakdown 13:45 was I had not slept right for fifteen 13:47 months, and it took my body about two 13:50 years to recover from that. And so yeah, I was 13:53 still struggling with my own load 13:55 when Jerry got sick. So now he gets sick, 13:58 and the interesting thing is that during 14:02 this time you're already drawing near 14:05 to the Lord, and he's drawing more near to 14:07 you, and he really did teach you how to 14:10 resist the feelings of depression. 14:13 He thought you how, yes. And he started 14:15 drawing Jerry closer to him, closer than 14:19 he'd ever been before. Yes. But I think Jerry 14:21 was a remarkable patient because you 14:23 wrote that never once did he complain or 14:27 whine or get bad at God during these 14:30 three years of chronic pain, severe 14:34 pain and chronic illness. Yeah. Yeah, it was so 14:39 wonderful. I felt so blessed that if he had 14:44 worked through I think at some point 14:46 in time he had work through the fact that 14:48 he had diabetes and any blaming of God 14:53 he had already processed that. 14:55 And he was a great strength to me, a great 14:57 help because since he hadn't resolved that 15:01 this pain and suffering he went through was 15:04 ultimately for his good. He was able to focus 15:09 on being a husband and a father. 15:11 And he was an excellent father to Kelly. 15:13 Yes. He must have been. Alright, when 15:16 he did die, did you grieve in the same 15:22 way that you could grieve the loss of your 15:24 father and other family members prior 15:27 or did you, was your pattern of grief totally 15:30 different this time around. 15:31 It was considerably different. 15:35 A few years before that my father died. 15:38 It was the first time I lost somebody really 15:41 close to me, and I noticed that I blocked 15:45 out his memory. I could tell you about 15:47 my dad, but I couldn't remember his face 15:51 you know clearly or the sound of his voice. 15:55 And when Jerry passed away the same 15:57 thing happened. Only this time I knew 16:01 that God would bring those memories back 16:03 to me at the right time. And that this was how 16:05 I had to deal with the horrible pain. 16:07 There was another factor although my 16:11 dad had been sick; it was my mom who 16:13 took care of him. So, I didn't have that 16:14 end of it, because I had that end of it 16:17 with Jerry there was an immense relief 16:20 when he died. His funeral was very 16:25 much a praise service. About six weeks later 16:30 then the pain hit, and. I thought the eulogy 16:35 that you gave, I can see why the pastor 16:37 thought maybe you wouldn't be strong 16:39 enough to get through this. 16:40 But the eulogy was so precious, and I know 16:43 that it was a time of great closure, but it 16:45 was a celebration of his life, yes, 16:47 as how he made it. Yes, yes, and I wanted 16:49 to because Jerry didn't, he wasn't a by 16:54 the book Christian. He did a lot of things 16:57 that weren't just quite right, and I felt a need 17:00 to tell our Church family, Jerry loved God. 17:04 Jerry understood that Jesus Christ saved him. 17:08 I felt that no one else could do that. 17:12 With all of these deaths that you've 17:14 been through and I think with the insight God 17:18 has given you, would you say that there 17:20 is a set pattern to grief? No, in fact the one 17:25 thing I've learned is there is no pattern. 17:28 The five stages of grief that is actually 17:30 study based on people who are dying. 17:34 That's different from losing someone else, 17:36 because there's the factor, your life is 17:38 going to continue, and so we grieve 17:43 differently, and the most important thing 17:45 to know is that it's okay, whatever your 17:50 experiencing, no matter how out of 17:52 control you feel, it's normal and healthy 17:56 to acknowledge those things. 17:59 And go ahead, beat up God if you have to, 18:01 he's strong enough to take it and as we slug 18:06 it out with him, we're less likely to hurt 18:08 those around us, who still need our 18:11 love and affection. And you know I've 18:14 seen people that I'll even have to confess 18:17 there was a time in my life that my grief 18:19 was so overwhelming that I shook my fist in 18:23 God's face and said you promised, you 18:26 promised, but I was taking his promises 18:30 out of context, wanting healing for 18:32 someone and this was before I really 18:35 understood that I had faith in faith Linda. 18:38 Yeah. You know what I am saying. Yes. 18:39 Instead of having let God be the object of my faith. 18:43 Yeah. And then afterward I felt so 18:46 guilty, I thought how could he ever love me 18:48 again. But then I remembered Romans 18:50 5:8 that says that God demonstrated his love 18:54 for us in this that while we were yet 18:56 sinners he sent Jesus to die for us. 18:59 And now that I was his child even though 19:02 I have thrown my tantrum, I found that 19:05 when I remember that scripture God drew 19:07 me right back in with loving arms. 19:09 I confess and he forgave me. 19:12 Yes, and he will, that's the beauty of 19:16 losing your temper with God. 19:18 He never holds a grudge. Yes, amen. 19:22 And I can't remember, 19:30 he will carry us, and when we admit to 19:34 God how we feel, we can get through it 19:37 more quickly than if we try to pretend 19:39 everything is okay. Amen, Amen. 19:42 Well now, can you enjoy life at the same 19:48 time that you're grieving? Yes, it's amazing 19:52 what you can do when you surrender to God. 19:54 I could see clearly that these experiences 19:58 were not just for Jerry's benefit, his 20:00 salvation and my salvation. But that I had work to 20:05 do, I had a testimony that no one else could 20:09 give because of what we had been through. 20:12 I went to a women's retreat last fall, and 20:15 I'm not real good at mingling. 20:17 It takes me while to warm out, and so 20:19 before the retreat actually began, I ate 20:23 in this fancy restaurant in the lodge, I ate alone. 20:27 Everybody else is gathered up in fives or 20:29 sixes and because I ate alone, I got a 20:32 really nice table right on the water front, 20:36 and the view was excellent. 20:38 And I sat there and they had on the dinner 20:41 menu something that I really like and it 20:43 actually fit my budget, so my delight 20:45 was unexpressible. And at the same time 20:51 I'm delighted at all that God has provided 20:53 me right then, I am delighted with God's 20:56 presence, and I am remembering other 20:59 dinners, the rare times Jerry and I got to such 21:03 a nice restaurants, and enjoyed 21:05 each others company. here is delight in my 21:09 heart and tears in my eyes, and I know that 21:14 that whole blend of emotions was what 21:17 God made us for. You know I've heard 21:19 people say that sometimes when 21:22 you're going through the grieving process, 21:24 that they almost felt like they were 21:26 schizophrenic, because a moment of 21:28 joy would be followed by a 21:30 moment of sorrow, would be followed by 21:32 a moment of joy, and sometimes Christians 21:34 will say I feel so guilty in grieving 21:38 when I know I have the blessed hope that 21:40 I am going to spent the rest of my life, 21:43 my eternal life with my husband. 21:45 We were never meant to be separated by death. 21:48 God's original plan included all of us in 21:52 the Garden of Eden never having tasted death. 21:56 So yes, it hurts; it hurts very badly when 22:00 we lose a loved one. And it's okay that it hurts. 22:03 It's not a denial of faith. It's exactly what God 22:07 feels when he lays our loved ones to rest. 22:10 You know and I think about the times that 22:13 and I bet if you're watching this program, 22:17 if you're honest and you think about, 22:18 there are times when you have been angry 22:20 at God, and when you think you know why 22:23 me or why did this happen, here I have a 22:25 young daughter that still needs to be raised? 22:28 Why did my husband have to go through this? 22:31 But what I loved about your book is 22:33 you said its okay, and its okay to express 22:35 that, as a matter of fact that's where you 22:37 got in trouble the first time around 22:39 because you didn't express it. Right, 22:41 right, I let it become a wedge between me 22:43 and God, and nothing, nothing is meant 22:46 to separate us. Truly, it's only our own 22:49 choices that can put a distance 22:51 between us and God. So if Kelly were to 22:54 come to you and now Kelly is now seventeen. 22:58 Seventeen, almost eighteen. 23:00 And a beautiful girl, and I know the delight 23:02 of your life, but if she were to come to you 23:05 and she was terribly disappointed and she 23:07 said about something and she didn't really 23:11 seem like she wanted to go to Church, and 23:12 you said what's wrong Kelly, and she's quiet 23:15 about it, and you said are you mad at God 23:17 about something? If she said yes, what 23:19 advice would you give her? 23:21 I say tell me, and don't be afraid to tell 23:24 me if it helps you get there. 23:26 That's good, because as you said over and 23:30 over in the book, God's big enough to 23:32 handle it, and it's kind of like what he says to 23:35 Isaiah, come let us reason together. 23:38 And I found out six weeks later, I started 23:41 becoming so angry and I would take it on 23:43 store clerks, and cashiers and things, 23:46 and I mean I wasn't proud of my behavior, 23:49 but the anger was so great it would just pop out. 23:52 And finally I confessed to a friend, 23:54 I figured it out, I'm angry at God. 23:57 I understand why all these things came to 24:00 pass, and I understand how much God loves 24:04 me, but I am so angry that it hurts so much. 24:08 I thought somehow he would 24:10 shield me from this pain. And did you find that 24:14 it was difficult for your church friends 24:17 to understand this. I know here they were 24:20 a little bit concerned because you had been 24:22 through a depression and now people, and 24:25 people are so inept in comforting the 24:31 grieving, would you agree? 24:32 Yes, yes they are, in fact I was really glad 24:35 that I was up, because I was able to encourage 24:39 what they did that was right, and not get 24:42 upset about what they did that was wrong, 24:44 but actually the Church was more able to 24:49 comfort me as a widow. This was a problem 24:52 that socially people know what to do with. 24:56 When somebody has a nervous breakdown, 24:57 you don't go to a Hallmark store and 25:00 find a section called nervous breakdowns. 25:03 There is no book of etiquette for people 25:07 who lose their marbles, and so it was actually 25:10 a relief that they knew what to do, nor they 25:14 didn't do it perfectly. But this time they had 25:19 a better idea of what to do. 25:20 And I would encourage people, 25:22 when you know somebody is grieving, 25:25 overcome your discomfort, go to the calling hours, 25:29 even if they give only them a hug and say 25:32 I'm sorry, every person makes a 25:35 difference, every person says you are 25:38 not alone, God is looking after you. 25:41 Amen, amen. And you can more than 25:45 endure the pain, you can overcome the 25:46 pain when as we said in the beginning. 25:50 We let God become the lifter of our heads. 25:52 Yes. And so what would you, if you 25:55 could just take a moment and look 25:57 into the camera. Okay. What would 25:59 you say you to someone who is going 26:04 through the grieving process right now? 26:07 There is no wrong way to grieve. 26:10 Your emotions will be wild, they will shift. 26:15 This is normal and God can carry your 26:18 through it. Find somebody safe to 26:21 talk to and above all, talk to the Lord. 26:25 Amen, I agree with that one, hundred percent. 26:28 You know this is reminding me of a 26:30 reminding me of a scripture because 26:32 the Bible says, in Isaiah chapter 43, 26:37 and I know you're familiar with this scripture. 26:39 You know sometimes when we're going 26:41 through this grieving process we feel so 26:43 alone, but God is always with us. 26:45 He never leave us nor forsakes us. 26:47 And he says in Isaiah 43, Fear not, for 26:51 I have redeemed you; I have called you by 26:54 your name, you are mine. And when you pass 26:58 through the rivers, I will be with you, 27:00 they will not overwhelm you; 27:02 when you walk through the fire, 27:04 when you walk through this fiery trail 27:06 of grief, you will not be burned or scourged 27:10 nor will the flame kindle upon you. 27:13 For I am the Lord your God, the holy 27:15 one, your savior. And I know that you 27:19 found out he was with you every step of the 27:22 way and it was something that he 27:25 actually brought you into a closer 27:27 relationship with him during your time of grief. 27:30 Yes. Praise the Lord. And he has done 27:32 such a glorious things. Amen. Linda, I thank 27:35 you so much for joining us today. 27:37 And I'm so thankful that you are going to 27:38 be coming back for another program or 27:40 two, and we are going to get a chance to talk 27:43 to Linda some more. But now for those of 27:45 you at home, may the grace of our Lord 27:48 Jesus Christ, the love of the Father and the 27:51 fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. |
Revised 2014-12-17